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On June 04 2010 05:32 LunarDestiny wrote:
Again, there is very limited information available right now. The only clues we got are from day 1 post by Flamewheel. In the post, we got some clues that might or might not be useful, but it is the only information we have. And you are related to the clue. If you are any other pro town people, you have to acknowledge those who are not related to the clues are better mayor candidates than those who are in the list. You are on the list and Darth is not.
Now I'm not sure you're even reading the whole thread.
I do not acknowledge that those not related to the clues are better mayoral candidates. Here's why:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=127781¤tpage=14#262
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If clues are only moderately effective at incriminating or clearing, this only serves to help my case. If you don't trust that I am town, that is your choice. However, that I can play with no fear of incrimination and put myself up for the post reinforces that I am town. As outlined earlier, if I were red, there are much better choices of tactic I could have taken than trying to be elected.
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On June 04 2010 06:22 DarthThienAn wrote:HOWEVER. Yellow, I'm not sure why you disagree with crate's whole medic analysis. It made sense to me. There shouldn't be a situation where a mafia gets hit AND the medic saves the mafia - after all, the vigi should be following what the thread says.
It depends on the vigi and the medic both, honestly. Vig don't always follow the clear path of the thread - and for good reason. If the mafia can predict who the vig is going to hit, the mafia can use this knowledge to their advantage. A couple examples off the top of my head:
1) The given target of the vig could roleclaim DT and out another suspicious mafia, thus garnering themselves credit.
2) Another mafia could whisper in someone's ear roleclaiming DT and saying that the targetted mafia is mafia, thus garnering credit and perhaps gaining a unwitting spokesperson.
There are a lot of twists and turns. I'm not saying vigs should go out and make random hits, but if they allow the hits to be predictable, the mafia will use that against us. It follows from this that medics similarly can't be too sure either - though I would hope that medics and mafia don't cross paths since that means the vig thought a player was mafia when the medic was similarly convinced the same player was town. This can definitely happen though - especially if a target is mired in contraversy.
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On June 04 2010 06:22 MTF wrote:
YellowInk, I feel I have to address something regarding your campaign. You know the problems I have with your main selling point, the clue, already. However, assume for the sake of argument that I believe all of those assumptions. There are still some problems with using it as your platform:
1. Having no communication between DT's, there is no guarantee that any will check you, as well as no guarantee that they won't all check you, wasting opportunities.
Lack of communication between the DTs would put us in the same position as if any other player were mayor, so this is a wash. If they all check me, this isn't terrible, because then they will all be able to entrust me with all knowledge. (On the flip, if all the DTs investigate me and I were to turn up red, yeah, it would be redundant. However it's not much more likely than DTs overlapping investigating someone else that is high profile and suspicious. I wouldn't be surprised if I got double DT checked even if I weren't elected for mayor.) The long term benefit is that after they both investigate me (and tell me that they trust me), I could work with them to ensure they don't overlap targets in the future. I would become a focal point for organization.
2. The stance that having a Mafia member in office is not so bad for town just because of an increased likelihood of being discovered is a faulty one. The Mayor has three votes, protection from Mafia hits, and the ability to become a mouthpiece for town. Eliminating that for town (as well as silencing an outspoken townie upon election, if one were that ballsy) for one Mafioso, who doesn't even reduce KP from their death, isn't too bad of an idea. Not a brilliant idea, mind. But, also certainly not a terrible one.
I claim that it's an increased likelihood of being discovered for me in particular. If I were mafia and there's this thing out there that's a clue pointing at my face, I make a bad mayoral candidate because I'll be discovered. As a part of team mafia, I'd much rather let one who is not suspected make a run for office. (see previous post for more elaborate explanation)
Also, the mayor is really only a mouthpiece for the town if people trust him. Mayors do hold a lot of power - the crux of the matter is that they typically do not hold a lot of trust. I believe that because of my position with respect to the clue it will cause more people to be more trusting of me once I can be publicly cleaned (if they're not already convinced just by my campaign).
There needs to be more of a reason to vote for you. So far you have shown yourself to be intelligent and reasonable, which is good, but pushing hard for the vote simply based off of self-implied innocence is not going to work.
I don't expect people to vote for me simply based on self-implied innocence. While hopefully this is weighted into your thoughts since the risk vs reward implies that I am town, it's not the only thing I have going for me. My original reason for deciding to run was because of the obvious clue pointing at me. This puts me in the unique position of being able to create a position of both power and strong trustworthiness in the mid game - a truly effective mayor.
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On June 04 2010 06:47 MooCow wrote:
All the mayoral candidates seem suspicious to me anyway.
Wouldn't it be so sick if all the current candidates Zeks, Yellowink and Darth were all mafia and just tricking us, since they all know who the mafia members are.
Since we are doing voting what if the public were to chose someone to be a mayor ( basing it from reading his posts and seeing if he is pro town ). Of course the person would have to agree but it would kind of be like a surprise to the crowd.
MTF looks like a town person to me, i might be completely wrong though. What do you guys think?
I like the way of your thinking, MooCow. However, if this were the case, Zeks has all but put his head on the block for merely the chance at getting me into the mayorship - one which would not be stable since a clue check could out me. So... we'd have to be pretty bad to have tried this kind of play. ^.~
I hope at this point no one will vote for Zeks. I would not be averse to one more (townie) putting their name up. If we have more than 3 people in the running creating vote split, it would make it much easier for the mafia to get one of their own elected.
To be honest, though, I think Darth will make a great pardoner because he has shown himself to have clear thought processes. If he starts spewing doubletalk or making inexplicable pardons later in the game, it'll be clear that he's mafia because he won't be able to hide behind the 'oh I'm noob and just messed up' defense. Plus, I'm leaning towards him being pro-town as well.
So to sum it up, I don't think we need a 3rd, but it wouldn't be bad either. Having a 4th would be bad.
Vote YellowInk for Mayor. 
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On June 04 2010 07:15 littlechava wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 06:49 YellowInk wrote:On June 04 2010 06:22 MTF wrote:
2. The stance that having a Mafia member in office is not so bad for town just because of an increased likelihood of being discovered is a faulty one. The Mayor has three votes, protection from Mafia hits, and the ability to become a mouthpiece for town. Eliminating that for town (as well as silencing an outspoken townie upon election, if one were that ballsy) for one Mafioso, who doesn't even reduce KP from their death, isn't too bad of an idea. Not a brilliant idea, mind. But, also certainly not a terrible one. I claim that it's an increased likelihood of being discovered for me in particular. If I were mafia and there's this thing out there that's a clue pointing at my face, I make a bad mayoral candidate because I'll be discovered. As a part of team mafia, I'd much rather let one who is not suspected make a run for office. (see previous post for more elaborate explanation) Also, the mayor is really only a mouthpiece for the town if people trust him. Mayors do hold a lot of power - the crux of the matter is that they typically do not hold a lot of trust. I believe that because of my position with respect to the clue it will cause more people to be more trusting of me once I can be publicly cleaned (if they're not already convinced just by my campaign). There needs to be more of a reason to vote for you. So far you have shown yourself to be intelligent and reasonable, which is good, but pushing hard for the vote simply based off of self-implied innocence is not going to work. I don't expect people to vote for me simply based on self-implied innocence. While hopefully this is weighted into your thoughts since the risk vs reward implies that I am town, it's not the only thing I have going for me. My original reason for deciding to run was because of the obvious clue pointing at me. This puts me in the unique position of being able to create a position of both power and strong trustworthiness in the mid game - a truly effective mayor. At this point I believe you are town, but I'm still a little wary of your tactics so far. There's still a possibility you are Mafia, and you're using the fact that the most obvious clue from the opening day post pointed to you to your advantage - you would be outed eventually because of it, so why not cause a blow to the town before you go down by taking the mayor out of the game, as well as wasting possibly all the detective's actions for the first day on finding you out. Also, like others, I'm a little disturbed at your aggression in pushing for yourself as mayor. Coupled with the glaring clue pointing towards you, that's why I voted for Darth. He could be mafia, but he's not associated with any clues as of yet, and he seems pretty clean from his posts. Hopefully that's a genuine sign that he's a town and not just skill picked up from playing multiple games.
I understand your line of thought. I'm glad you are tending towards a clean read on me. In more direct response to your argument, see http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=127781¤tpage=14#262 + Show Spoiler +The worst thing that could happen is a mafia mayor that you have no way to figure out if they're mafia. After the clues got compiled, the mafia team perhaps got together and put up a candidate for mayor that does not have any current suspicion (eg Darth). If he wins this election and ends up being red, it will be devastating to the town. On the flip side, the best thing that could happen is to have a townie mayor that you're able to clean. That's me! Once you know you can trust me, I will be a devastating force against the mafia due to my immunity to hits and ability to be a focal point for all knowledge. I will be able to mobilize the town into an effective force to root out all of the red. In the middle, we have the mayors we can't confirm and mayors who are shown to be red. The mayor can be hung just like anyone else. If the mayor can't be confirmed in some way (remember they're immune to rolechecks), his real power is largely left dormant. Now I am leaning towards Darth being town just from his posting style. But I wouldn't put my life in his hands. I wouldn't be comfortable trusting him with any info I might have. The result will be that he's either a middle strength mayor or our worst nightmare. On the other hand, I will eventually be cleaned by a DT or shown to be red - either a best case scenario or at worst falling in the middle. This is why you should vote YellowInk for Mayor!
I know that you know that if I turn up red from the clue check, you'll be able to get rid of me. If I were mafia, I wouldn't be putting myself up for the mayorship. I'd probably be keeping quiet in the election while one of my mafia brethren who had no suspicion ran for office. I wouldn't support them since when I turn up red it'd destabilize his position. I just wouldn't be participating. I'd be keeping quiet at probably 1-3 posts, maybe making an excuse, contributing a bit to clue digging, or just saying nothing of particular relevance like about 10-15 of our 30 are currently doing. The mafia would be MUCH better served by having a suspicionless mayor in position than having me be put up for it.
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On June 04 2010 10:40 L wrote:
Gj being active bromigos.
Who are you?
Also, have another post coming, it's just a bit long and this was an easy question to spit out. :D
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BrownBear, your post reeks of scum. A lot. If this were a game with experienced players I probably would hold off because I'd expect others to pick up on it as well. I'd let you try to make a couple more plays before pointing the finger. But since it's not, here's another incendiary post.
Here's why no one should vote for BrownBear.
On June 04 2010 07:58 BrownBear wrote:
Alright, I'm back.
And holy crap, has stuff been happening. Mayoral contest is heating up, with YellowInk pushing for himself pretty heavily, despite a lot of people being rather skeptical. It looks like people are reading way too much into the "hot ink/yellowink" clue, which I find odd, because it is Day 1 after all. Clues are traditionally very vague/nonexistant on day 1, and they're also usually very well hidden and not obvious.
Since mayoral elections are kinda the big deal today, I thought I'd look at the candidates who have been pretty vocal - YellowInk, zeks, and Darth.
YellowInk:
He reeeeeeeallly wants to be mayor. Like, seriously. There's been a lot of back and forth between him and Darth re: exactly what being mayor entails. He seems to think that he can be completely cleared by cluechecks, which is not true, sorry bro. However, because pretty much everyone in this game is new, that's a very understandable mistake, so it also doesn't make him look scummy. He's been the most incendiary candidate so far, attacking both zeks and Darth on their plans for their mayorship.
It's true that a clue check isn't 100%. Maybe hot ink just flavor, or maybe there's some other clue pointing at me. You can never be absolutely sure about this sort of thing. However it does provide strong evidence - stronger than anyone else can put forward at the moment.
I've attacked Zeks for reasons that are clear in my post. He's playing like scum. I have not attacked Darth - in fact I have said in multiple places that I lean towards him being pro-town. However, I still feel that I am the better candidate for the mayor's office because I have a better way to be cleaned in office than he does. Sure, it's not 100%, but it's better than he has.
That BrownBear would choose to say that I have attacked Darth on his plans for mayorship incites conflict where there is none.
Here's what I think: A DT should CLUECHECK (not rolecheck) the hot-ink part of today's post tonight. If that's a clue, then that's pretty damning for poor YellowInk, although we should profile-analyze everyone else just to be sure. It's far more likely that it's nothing, however, which is why I'm not advocating a rolecheck this early in the game (I do not think rolechecks should be used night 1. It's unlikely the DTs are going to die night 1, and having rolechecks late in the game is very useful), so if it's not a clue, then I'd be ok with YellowInk being mayor. Unfortunately, since there's no way to cluecheck before the elections are done, I can't endorse YellowInk for mayor, sorry bro.
If you're going to cluecheck it but not try to link it to me, this is a poor play. If it turns up as merely flavor, the move gained no new information. If it turns up as a clue, it'll make me look bad even though I know it's pointed at someone else. Either I'll get lynched (at which point you'll see that I really am town) or at DT will use up another move seeing if it's linked to me (at which point they'll find it isn't and will have gained no useful information). If you're going to cluecheck it at all, see that it's not linked to me. But only bother to do this if you believe that it coming up as negative cleans me.
Do not be led by BrownBear's attempts at making your plays less effective.
zeks:
he has a plan. He posted his plan. I'm really not a fan of it. His logic behind the DT rolecheck pattern is flawed, for this reason: there is something like a 48% chance they are both in the same bracket. Even though there's a 1 in 225 chance that they both rolecheck the same person, there's a 100% chance that half the players in the game are being completely ignored. This is very very bad.
Again, he doesn't look scummy, he looks new. This is not a bad thing, but again, I can't in good conscience vote for a candidate who i don't agree with.
BrownBear's math is as bad as Zeks' even after I corrected it! No worries, this isn't why this area reeks of scum. It's because after the several posts of Zeks trying to mislead town, BrownBear is trying to shrug it all off as Zeks looking new.
Also, Zeks isn't new.
I havn't gone digging through the history of mafia here (yet), but crate earlier linked a couple games. In particular, see that this is a game from May of 2009 that Zeks played in.
I don't buy any of it, BrownBear. Moving on.
DarthThienAn:
I've played a game with him before (3 kingdoms mafia rawr :3) and we did pretty well. From his posts so far, he's very pro-town, which I like. His style of play in the last game we played was to make some slightly scummy decisions to try and draw people out. Mafia players tend to love to accuse any town player acting even slightly weird of being mafia, as it draws the suspicion away from him. He had been cleared town by alignment checks, so he went fishing, and (iirc) it didn't really pay off that much, but it wasn't a bad tactic.
I feel most comfortable voting for Darth, if only because I have played with him before, and I know he knows the game reasonably well. It's nothing against the new players (this is a new player game after all ^^), but mayor is a role that can make or break town, and we need someone with slightly more experience in the role, plus there are no clues against him and he has a pro-town attitude. So I say, vote Darth for mayor!
This is a set up to garner good will. People like Darth already. He's just riding it. This doesn't contribute much to the discussion anyhow. That he played well or poorly in the past does not reflect on whether or not he should be elected mayor. It doesn't make him any more likely to be pro town in this game.
Now that that's out of the way, I'd like to announce my candidacy for Pardoner. There haven't been any clear pardoner candidates yet, so I thought I might as well get the ball rolling. As pardoner, here's what I would do:
1) Attempt to establish clear connections to confirmed townies
I want to try and work with the most active, coolest town people in the game. I would try to coordinate with DTs secretly to attempt to catch scum, I would work with the medic(s) to protect those that need protecting, and the vigilantes to nail confirmed scum.
2) Pardon power roles if necessary
If a confirmed townie ever comes under fire from the town and is about to get lynched, I will pardon and protect them. I cannot stress enough how important it is to keep the confirmed townies, particularly the power roles, alive, as they will be the ones that win us the game.
This is all stuff any pardoner should be doing, if they can. The trick of it, just like the mayor's position, is to have developed enough trust with the townies that they're willing to work with you. Both the mayor and the pardoner have a great deal of power, but either of them can still be mafia. In essense, this block of text says nothing that everyone doesn't already know (or at least should know).
Here are my credentials:
Have played 2 mafia games before. Won one handily (3 kingdoms) and just barely lost the other (The Life Aquatic). Was townie both times.
I am a standard, green townie this game. No special roles, so I am a low-priority target.
I am completely clean from the day 1 clues, and there is no suspicion against me.
I AM NOT SCUM.
Except for the part where the top half of your post exclaims, "I AM SCUM!" at the top of your lungs.
Seriously, you probably would have done much better if you had just posted that you were interested in the pardoner position without all the nonsense you led off with. Considering how much a few of the irrational people seem to dislike me, you might have gotten it.
That last point is the most important one, and let me stress why: It's bad to let a mafia player (or god forbid, the GF) get into any elected role, but especially bad to give them Pardoner. The reasoning is, Pardoner gets a free ability to protect ANYONE from lynch, two times, and we have no way to block it. What this means is, if a mafia has Pardoner role, unless we catch on really quickly, we essentially have to lynch 8 mafia instead of 6, as the pardoner can protect his brethren twice. This is something we DON'T want to happen.
Now consider this. There are 6 mafia. If they vote as a bloc, that probably won't be enough to get any scum into the mayor slot, but seeing as there doesn't seem to be a strong second candidate, that just might be enough to give one of them Pardoner. They can probably hide it pretty well too, by have one of their own announce candidacy for mayor and posting a bunch of stuff so he seems legit, then just having them all vote for him, spreading it out throughout the day so it's even less obvious. I don't want that to happen.
Thus, I want you to elect me for Pardoner. What this means is, I am trying to place SECOND in the mayoral election. Whoever you guys choose for mayor (I'm backing Darth, but it doesn't necessarily have to be him) needs to be ahead of me, but I should be ideally, just one vote behind him. So here's what I'm proposing:
I am voting for myself now. That will give me 1 vote, Darth currently has 4. Two more people should vote for me, then we should go by the following: One person votes for Darth, one votes for me. Thus, we will slowly creep up, I will never tie or pass Darth in terms of voting, and, assuming for random 3rd party candidates, Darth should end up with something like 9 votes, I should then end up with 8. That should be enough to keep the scum out of office.
With such a contrived method and keeping the vote counts close as you suggest, the mafia would probably be glad to bump the vote up to make you mayor if you've got enough townies behind you near the end. They could do it and claim noobishness and everyone would shrug saying it's a noob game. Oh look, now we have a mafia mayor.
It's true, though. We don't want a mafia mayor OR a mafia pardoner. BrownBear is not someone we want to elect.
I hope you all agree with me.
I think my stance is clear here. :D
All this being said, I would still be ok a third candidate for the elections. On on!
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On June 04 2010 11:27 DarthThienAn wrote:
Hm, yea. The whole idea of course depends on vigilantes following the town's votes. But I think you're still misunderstanding, so lemme lay out my interpretation of the plan:
ASSUMPTION:
-vigilante never hits anyone without the town's suggesting it or voting on it.
-medic doesn't protect anyone who the town would suspect enough to send a vig hit.
With those two intact, the only killing happening at night should be by mafia, except when we tell the vig to hit someone, of course.
SO:
-medic successfully protects a hit on someone.
-that someone cannot be mafia, because the mafia would never nightkill their own for no reason - it just doesn't accomplish anything lol, except maybe tricking the town into thinking that the vigs took a shot which is relatively useless.
-since that person is town, and the medic is obviously town, the medic has a positive townie. hence, PM, etc. two townies now know who each other are, which is a big deal, especially if you add on a couple more or if by chance, the saved guy is already in a town circle.
The only real disadvantage to this plan is that mafia would know who's getting hit by vigilantes and can avoid doubling up on someone like that. However, it's a small price to pay when that's the way it will probably unfold anyway, and we have a potential positive read for medics as a reward.
Assuming I haven't majorly messed up in here, I think you should be able to agree with this argument.
I agree with your argument here. This is part of the ultimate goal of townies - to organize our forces. If we can manage this, mafia have almost no chance at winning. I was working under the assumption that we were not organized.
The challenge to organizing lies with trust. If a power role places their trust in a mafia for whatever reason, it can be absolutely devastating to the town.
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On June 04 2010 11:22 LunarDestiny wrote:
YellowInk, you don't want to know who L is. And you hope in the future you don't play a mafia with L in it because he always cause a ruckus (good and bad).
Why is he posting in our thread if he's not a mod and he's not in our game? Is this permissible?
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To put out some other thoughts on my mind, LunarDestiny grows more suspicious in my eyes practically every other post. His most recent shenanigans are talking about how inevitable it is that mafia will get one of the two voted roles. To look back at the other things he's done, he has demonstrated a poor understanding of the rules, based his vote on Darth on previous game experience, and posted in disregard of things stated earlier in the thread (and it wasn't a time lag post, he had posted since). Earlier I had noted it in thread and chalked it up to new player error, but it just keeps happening.
LD, if you're really town, please stop and think more about what you're posting before putting it up. Think it all the way through to it's logical completion.
Because LD was so quick to vote for Darth in the early game, some of this suspicion bleeds on to Darth as well. In Darth's defense, though, his own posts have been very well thought out and beneficial to the community, so I still lean towards pro town on him.
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On June 04 2010 11:55 Korynne wrote:I would like to point out that BrownBear made a false statement. xP You didn't so much barely lose as you caused the town to lose if I recall correctly. =P XeliN was like OMG KORYNNE SCUM except you did all sorts of stupid shit and made yourself too scummy to not vote for. =P So I guess you could say you just barely lost but it was also like, you were a big part of the cause. =P Anyway hope this post is okay cuz like, that's not deep analysis, if you read that game at the end you're just like, ohhh fuck. xD Edit: Yeah we all like to lurk and post random one-liners in games. xP No worries, just ignore us all. =P
Eh, if it's ok with the mod and the community, it's fine by me. I just worry that it could influence the game, even if unintentional or obliquely. Posting after the game has completed about your thoughts while you watched the game should be fine regardless.
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I definitely don't accuse everyone that disagrees with me. It's just that most of the people who do so have reeked of scum. As a counter example, MTF has disagreed with me, but so far has posted in a way that is beneficial to the town.
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On June 04 2010 12:33 DarthThienAn wrote:
As far as I know, LD and I just share a mutual bond of affection and love. Same with BB. A lot of my supporters in thread right now are just people who have played with me in the past.
Ugh, is that how games here go? That will make the games really swingy. Have to work with what we're given though, eh?
Oh, and Vote YellowInk for Mayor!
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On June 04 2010 12:43 BrownBear wrote:stuff + Show Spoiler +On June 04 2010 11:44 YellowInk wrote:
BrownBear, your post reeks of scum. A lot. If this were a game with experienced players I probably would hold off because I'd expect others to pick up on it as well. I'd let you try to make a couple more plays before pointing the finger. But since it's not, here's another incendiary post.
Here's why no one should vote for BrownBear. And here's why no one should listen to you  Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 07:58 BrownBear wrote:
Alright, I'm back.
And holy crap, has stuff been happening. Mayoral contest is heating up, with YellowInk pushing for himself pretty heavily, despite a lot of people being rather skeptical. It looks like people are reading way too much into the "hot ink/yellowink" clue, which I find odd, because it is Day 1 after all. Clues are traditionally very vague/nonexistant on day 1, and they're also usually very well hidden and not obvious.
Since mayoral elections are kinda the big deal today, I thought I'd look at the candidates who have been pretty vocal - YellowInk, zeks, and Darth.
YellowInk:
He reeeeeeeallly wants to be mayor. Like, seriously. There's been a lot of back and forth between him and Darth re: exactly what being mayor entails. He seems to think that he can be completely cleared by cluechecks, which is not true, sorry bro. However, because pretty much everyone in this game is new, that's a very understandable mistake, so it also doesn't make him look scummy. He's been the most incendiary candidate so far, attacking both zeks and Darth on their plans for their mayorship. It's true that a clue check isn't 100%. Maybe hot ink just flavor, or maybe there's some other clue pointing at me. You can never be absolutely sure about this sort of thing. However it does provide strong evidence - stronger than anyone else can put forward at the moment. I've attacked Zeks for reasons that are clear in my post. He's playing like scum. I have not attacked Darth - in fact I have said in multiple places that I lean towards him being pro-town. However, I still feel that I am the better candidate for the mayor's office because I have a better way to be cleaned in office than he does. Sure, it's not 100%, but it's better than he has. That BrownBear would choose to say that I have attacked Darth on his plans for mayorship incites conflict where there is none. So... you're saying that hot ink is strong evidence against you. cool. There's a very very serious thing in mafia games. This thing is called the Finger of Shame. The Finger of Shame is what you point at people when you want to accuse them of mafia, and should only be used as a tool to incriminate people you are positive are scum. The Finger of Shame is what you are pointing all over the freakin' place, on day 1. This is a very very confusing thing for you to be doing, as we have little to no evidence to go on. You think zeks is playing like scum, sure, go ahead. It is day 1, however. I have read over zeks' posts, and I don't see anything of serious note in them, so I guess you know something I don't. However, you've accused at least 2 (possibly more) people of being scum. On the first day. You do know you have a chance in 5 of being correct, right? There is no way you have enough evidence to call scum on someone, so you have just rolled the roulette wheel on me and zeks being mafia. What you are doing is very bad, because if you start suspicion on people, you have a 20% chance of it paying off and them flipping red when they are eventually lynched. You have an 80% chance of hitting a townie, weakening the town, and making yourself look bad. Show nested quote +Here's what I think: A DT should CLUECHECK (not rolecheck) the hot-ink part of today's post tonight. If that's a clue, then that's pretty damning for poor YellowInk, although we should profile-analyze everyone else just to be sure. It's far more likely that it's nothing, however, which is why I'm not advocating a rolecheck this early in the game (I do not think rolechecks should be used night 1. It's unlikely the DTs are going to die night 1, and having rolechecks late in the game is very useful), so if it's not a clue, then I'd be ok with YellowInk being mayor. Unfortunately, since there's no way to cluecheck before the elections are done, I can't endorse YellowInk for mayor, sorry bro. If you're going to cluecheck it but not try to link it to me, this is a poor play. If it turns up as merely flavor, the move gained no new information. If it turns up as a clue, it'll make me look bad even though I know it's pointed at someone else. Either I'll get lynched (at which point you'll see that I really am town) or at DT will use up another move seeing if it's linked to me (at which point they'll find it isn't and will have gained no useful information). If you're going to cluecheck it at all, see that it's not linked to me. But only bother to do this if you believe that it coming up as negative cleans me. Do not be led by BrownBear's attempts at making your plays less effective. Yep. That's me. Trying to make everyone's play less effective. Allow me to quote you for a second: On June 03 2010 13:42 YellowInk wrote:
The difference between me and others is that many of them are less clear and overlap. I would be willing to bet that we could try to put together a comprehensive list of how all the clues possibly attach to any of the profiles and there would be at least one mafia who we missed in that list.
If someone has multiple clues that could possibly point to them, they're a poor candidate for mayor since it would take several days to clean them. Because I have a singular clue, it puts me in the position to be cleaned efficiently.
Yes, if I am not elected to mayor, I'm sure a DT will still check my clue out and find that I am town. In this case I will be supportive in any way that I can. The point of electing me to mayor is that I can be efficiently cleaned in office where others can not. You will always have to wonder if the mayor is red.
You told us to cluecheck you. I am saying we should cluecheck you. I don't see where the problem is? Oh wait, I do. You think I want people to cluecheck and not try and link it to you. That's stupid. Just because I said "hey someone should cluecheck" instead of EXPLICITLY saying "cluecheck and see if it's linked to yellowink" I am making the town play less effectively? I question your logic, good sir. I question it. Show nested quote +zeks:
he has a plan. He posted his plan. I'm really not a fan of it. His logic behind the DT rolecheck pattern is flawed, for this reason: there is something like a 48% chance they are both in the same bracket. Even though there's a 1 in 225 chance that they both rolecheck the same person, there's a 100% chance that half the players in the game are being completely ignored. This is very very bad.
Again, he doesn't look scummy, he looks new. This is not a bad thing, but again, I can't in good conscience vote for a candidate who i don't agree with. BrownBear's math is as bad as Zeks' even after I corrected it! No worries, this isn't why this area reeks of scum. It's because after the several posts of Zeks trying to mislead town, BrownBear is trying to shrug it all off as Zeks looking new. Also, Zeks isn't new. I havn't gone digging through the history of mafia here (yet), but crate earlier linked a couple games. In particular, see that this is a game from May of 2009 that Zeks played in. I don't buy any of it, BrownBear. Moving on. If you want to accuse my math of being terrible, please back it up with evidence of why my math is terrible. Otherwise, you're just throwing accusations around, which is a bad thing. Also, I didn't know about zeks playing before, my bad. However, in my defense, I joined in the winter, so I was not around in May 2009 when zeks was playing. Still, whoopsie on my part. I just assumed that since this is a more new-player-focused game, most people would be playing their first or second game of mafia. Out of curiosity, is this your first game? Not attacking you or anything here, just curious. Show nested quote +DarthThienAn:
I've played a game with him before (3 kingdoms mafia rawr :3) and we did pretty well. From his posts so far, he's very pro-town, which I like. His style of play in the last game we played was to make some slightly scummy decisions to try and draw people out. Mafia players tend to love to accuse any town player acting even slightly weird of being mafia, as it draws the suspicion away from him. He had been cleared town by alignment checks, so he went fishing, and (iirc) it didn't really pay off that much, but it wasn't a bad tactic.
I feel most comfortable voting for Darth, if only because I have played with him before, and I know he knows the game reasonably well. It's nothing against the new players (this is a new player game after all ^^), but mayor is a role that can make or break town, and we need someone with slightly more experience in the role, plus there are no clues against him and he has a pro-town attitude. So I say, vote Darth for mayor! This is a set up to garner good will. People like Darth already. He's just riding it. This doesn't contribute much to the discussion anyhow. That he played well or poorly in the past does not reflect on whether or not he should be elected mayor. It doesn't make him any more likely to be pro town in this game. On June 03 2010 13:42 YellowInk wrote:
I have not attacked Darth - in fact I have said in multiple places that I lean towards him being pro-town.
Hey, contradictions, cool. Also, the fact that he played well in the past doesn't have bearing on whether he's elected mayor? Dude, it has all the bearing in the world, especially if he is pro-town like you say he is. By your logic, if Darth is pro-town, he's the best mayoral candidate. Show nested quote +Now that that's out of the way, I'd like to announce my candidacy for Pardoner. There haven't been any clear pardoner candidates yet, so I thought I might as well get the ball rolling. As pardoner, here's what I would do:
1) Attempt to establish clear connections to confirmed townies
I want to try and work with the most active, coolest town people in the game. I would try to coordinate with DTs secretly to attempt to catch scum, I would work with the medic(s) to protect those that need protecting, and the vigilantes to nail confirmed scum.
2) Pardon power roles if necessary
If a confirmed townie ever comes under fire from the town and is about to get lynched, I will pardon and protect them. I cannot stress enough how important it is to keep the confirmed townies, particularly the power roles, alive, as they will be the ones that win us the game. This is all stuff any pardoner should be doing, if they can. The trick of it, just like the mayor's position, is to have developed enough trust with the townies that they're willing to work with you. Both the mayor and the pardoner have a great deal of power, but either of them can still be mafia. In essense, this block of text says nothing that everyone doesn't already know (or at least should know). And your block of text responding to my block of text says even less. I said that for a reason - I wanted to point out that hey, I know how to play pardoner! When you're trying to run for an elected office, it's generally a good idea to, I don't know, prove that you know what your job is if you happen to get elected? You're now fishing pretty deep to find nonexistent "evidence" that proves absolutely nothing about me other than I know what I'm doing. Show nested quote +Here are my credentials:
Have played 2 mafia games before. Won one handily (3 kingdoms) and just barely lost the other (The Life Aquatic). Was townie both times.
I am a standard, green townie this game. No special roles, so I am a low-priority target.
I am completely clean from the day 1 clues, and there is no suspicion against me.
I AM NOT SCUM. Except for the part where the top half of your post exclaims, "I AM SCUM!" at the top of your lungs. Seriously, you probably would have done much better if you had just posted that you were interested in the pardoner position without all the nonsense you led off with. Considering how much a few of the irrational people seem to dislike me, you might have gotten it. Uh, what? I'm actually not sure what this is saying. You want me to do less analysis? Ok, cool... Show nested quote +That last point is the most important one, and let me stress why: It's bad to let a mafia player (or god forbid, the GF) get into any elected role, but especially bad to give them Pardoner. The reasoning is, Pardoner gets a free ability to protect ANYONE from lynch, two times, and we have no way to block it. What this means is, if a mafia has Pardoner role, unless we catch on really quickly, we essentially have to lynch 8 mafia instead of 6, as the pardoner can protect his brethren twice. This is something we DON'T want to happen.
Now consider this. There are 6 mafia. If they vote as a bloc, that probably won't be enough to get any scum into the mayor slot, but seeing as there doesn't seem to be a strong second candidate, that just might be enough to give one of them Pardoner. They can probably hide it pretty well too, by have one of their own announce candidacy for mayor and posting a bunch of stuff so he seems legit, then just having them all vote for him, spreading it out throughout the day so it's even less obvious. I don't want that to happen.
Thus, I want you to elect me for Pardoner. What this means is, I am trying to place SECOND in the mayoral election. Whoever you guys choose for mayor (I'm backing Darth, but it doesn't necessarily have to be him) needs to be ahead of me, but I should be ideally, just one vote behind him. So here's what I'm proposing:
I am voting for myself now. That will give me 1 vote, Darth currently has 4. Two more people should vote for me, then we should go by the following: One person votes for Darth, one votes for me. Thus, we will slowly creep up, I will never tie or pass Darth in terms of voting, and, assuming for random 3rd party candidates, Darth should end up with something like 9 votes, I should then end up with 8. That should be enough to keep the scum out of office. With such a contrived method and keeping the vote counts close as you suggest, the mafia would probably be glad to bump the vote up to make you mayor if you've got enough townies behind you near the end. They could do it and claim noobishness and everyone would shrug saying it's a noob game. Oh look, now we have a mafia mayor. It's true, though. We don't want a mafia mayor OR a mafia pardoner. BrownBear is not someone we want to elect. Meh, that would actually be an effective tactic, if everyone was retarded. Thing is, people aren't. The minute mafia tries to pull a stunt like that, we have at least 3 of them. I explicitly state that my vote count will never exceed Darth's. If I were mafia, and my teammates tried to bump me ahead of him last minute, I'm very certain that people would see that, think "hmmm, now why would those people vote against the very clear plan that was laid out?" and all 3 of us would likely go down. The mafia plan you have laid out here is just plain silly. I think my stance is clear here. :D All this being said, I would still be ok a third candidate for the elections. On on! And I think my stance is clear here :D Before, I just thought you were an overzealous new player who really really really wanted to be mayor, which I can't really fault. But now, I'm seriously starting to question you. PS this is also not intended to be a personal attack against you I love the fact that you're being so active, keep it up!
Considering I have already either responded to each point you've made or that the logic is blatantly flawed, I will just direct the populace to read carefully to see the truth.
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On June 04 2010 12:55 DarthThienAn wrote:+ Show Spoiler [BB] +On June 04 2010 12:43 BrownBear wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 11:44 YellowInk wrote:
BrownBear, your post reeks of scum. A lot. If this were a game with experienced players I probably would hold off because I'd expect others to pick up on it as well. I'd let you try to make a couple more plays before pointing the finger. But since it's not, here's another incendiary post.
Here's why no one should vote for BrownBear. And here's why no one should listen to you Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 07:58 BrownBear wrote:
Alright, I'm back.
And holy crap, has stuff been happening. Mayoral contest is heating up, with YellowInk pushing for himself pretty heavily, despite a lot of people being rather skeptical. It looks like people are reading way too much into the "hot ink/yellowink" clue, which I find odd, because it is Day 1 after all. Clues are traditionally very vague/nonexistant on day 1, and they're also usually very well hidden and not obvious.
Since mayoral elections are kinda the big deal today, I thought I'd look at the candidates who have been pretty vocal - YellowInk, zeks, and Darth.
YellowInk:
He reeeeeeeallly wants to be mayor. Like, seriously. There's been a lot of back and forth between him and Darth re: exactly what being mayor entails. He seems to think that he can be completely cleared by cluechecks, which is not true, sorry bro. However, because pretty much everyone in this game is new, that's a very understandable mistake, so it also doesn't make him look scummy. He's been the most incendiary candidate so far, attacking both zeks and Darth on their plans for their mayorship. It's true that a clue check isn't 100%. Maybe hot ink just flavor, or maybe there's some other clue pointing at me. You can never be absolutely sure about this sort of thing. However it does provide strong evidence - stronger than anyone else can put forward at the moment. I've attacked Zeks for reasons that are clear in my post. He's playing like scum. I have not attacked Darth - in fact I have said in multiple places that I lean towards him being pro-town. However, I still feel that I am the better candidate for the mayor's office because I have a better way to be cleaned in office than he does. Sure, it's not 100%, but it's better than he has. That BrownBear would choose to say that I have attacked Darth on his plans for mayorship incites conflict where there is none. So... you're saying that hot ink is strong evidence against you. cool. There's a very very serious thing in mafia games. This thing is called the Finger of Shame. The Finger of Shame is what you point at people when you want to accuse them of mafia, and should only be used as a tool to incriminate people you are positive are scum. The Finger of Shame is what you are pointing all over the freakin' place, on day 1. This is a very very confusing thing for you to be doing, as we have little to no evidence to go on. You think zeks is playing like scum, sure, go ahead. It is day 1, however. I have read over zeks' posts, and I don't see anything of serious note in them, so I guess you know something I don't. However, you've accused at least 2 (possibly more) people of being scum. On the first day. You do know you have a chance in 5 of being correct, right? There is no way you have enough evidence to call scum on someone, so you have just rolled the roulette wheel on me and zeks being mafia. What you are doing is very bad, because if you start suspicion on people, you have a 20% chance of it paying off and them flipping red when they are eventually lynched. You have an 80% chance of hitting a townie, weakening the town, and making yourself look bad. Show nested quote +Here's what I think: A DT should CLUECHECK (not rolecheck) the hot-ink part of today's post tonight. If that's a clue, then that's pretty damning for poor YellowInk, although we should profile-analyze everyone else just to be sure. It's far more likely that it's nothing, however, which is why I'm not advocating a rolecheck this early in the game (I do not think rolechecks should be used night 1. It's unlikely the DTs are going to die night 1, and having rolechecks late in the game is very useful), so if it's not a clue, then I'd be ok with YellowInk being mayor. Unfortunately, since there's no way to cluecheck before the elections are done, I can't endorse YellowInk for mayor, sorry bro. If you're going to cluecheck it but not try to link it to me, this is a poor play. If it turns up as merely flavor, the move gained no new information. If it turns up as a clue, it'll make me look bad even though I know it's pointed at someone else. Either I'll get lynched (at which point you'll see that I really am town) or at DT will use up another move seeing if it's linked to me (at which point they'll find it isn't and will have gained no useful information). If you're going to cluecheck it at all, see that it's not linked to me. But only bother to do this if you believe that it coming up as negative cleans me. Do not be led by BrownBear's attempts at making your plays less effective. Yep. That's me. Trying to make everyone's play less effective. Allow me to quote you for a second: Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 13:42 YellowInk wrote:
The difference between me and others is that many of them are less clear and overlap. I would be willing to bet that we could try to put together a comprehensive list of how all the clues possibly attach to any of the profiles and there would be at least one mafia who we missed in that list.
If someone has multiple clues that could possibly point to them, they're a poor candidate for mayor since it would take several days to clean them. Because I have a singular clue, it puts me in the position to be cleaned efficiently.
Yes, if I am not elected to mayor, I'm sure a DT will still check my clue out and find that I am town. In this case I will be supportive in any way that I can. The point of electing me to mayor is that I can be efficiently cleaned in office where others can not. You will always have to wonder if the mayor is red.
You told us to cluecheck you. I am saying we should cluecheck you. I don't see where the problem is? Oh wait, I do. You think I want people to cluecheck and not try and link it to you. That's stupid. Just because I said "hey someone should cluecheck" instead of EXPLICITLY saying "cluecheck and see if it's linked to yellowink" I am making the town play less effectively? I question your logic, good sir. I question it. Show nested quote +zeks:
he has a plan. He posted his plan. I'm really not a fan of it. His logic behind the DT rolecheck pattern is flawed, for this reason: there is something like a 48% chance they are both in the same bracket. Even though there's a 1 in 225 chance that they both rolecheck the same person, there's a 100% chance that half the players in the game are being completely ignored. This is very very bad.
Again, he doesn't look scummy, he looks new. This is not a bad thing, but again, I can't in good conscience vote for a candidate who i don't agree with. BrownBear's math is as bad as Zeks' even after I corrected it! No worries, this isn't why this area reeks of scum. It's because after the several posts of Zeks trying to mislead town, BrownBear is trying to shrug it all off as Zeks looking new. Also, Zeks isn't new. I havn't gone digging through the history of mafia here (yet), but crate earlier linked a couple games. In particular, see that this is a game from May of 2009 that Zeks played in. I don't buy any of it, BrownBear. Moving on. If you want to accuse my math of being terrible, please back it up with evidence of why my math is terrible. Otherwise, you're just throwing accusations around, which is a bad thing. Also, I didn't know about zeks playing before, my bad. However, in my defense, I joined in the winter, so I was not around in May 2009 when zeks was playing. Still, whoopsie on my part. I just assumed that since this is a more new-player-focused game, most people would be playing their first or second game of mafia. Out of curiosity, is this your first game? Not attacking you or anything here, just curious. Show nested quote +DarthThienAn:
I've played a game with him before (3 kingdoms mafia rawr :3) and we did pretty well. From his posts so far, he's very pro-town, which I like. His style of play in the last game we played was to make some slightly scummy decisions to try and draw people out. Mafia players tend to love to accuse any town player acting even slightly weird of being mafia, as it draws the suspicion away from him. He had been cleared town by alignment checks, so he went fishing, and (iirc) it didn't really pay off that much, but it wasn't a bad tactic.
I feel most comfortable voting for Darth, if only because I have played with him before, and I know he knows the game reasonably well. It's nothing against the new players (this is a new player game after all ^^), but mayor is a role that can make or break town, and we need someone with slightly more experience in the role, plus there are no clues against him and he has a pro-town attitude. So I say, vote Darth for mayor! This is a set up to garner good will. People like Darth already. He's just riding it. This doesn't contribute much to the discussion anyhow. That he played well or poorly in the past does not reflect on whether or not he should be elected mayor. It doesn't make him any more likely to be pro town in this game. Show nested quote +On June 03 2010 13:42 YellowInk wrote:
I have not attacked Darth - in fact I have said in multiple places that I lean towards him being pro-town.
Hey, contradictions, cool. Also, the fact that he played well in the past doesn't have bearing on whether he's elected mayor? Dude, it has all the bearing in the world, especially if he is pro-town like you say he is. By your logic, if Darth is pro-town, he's the best mayoral candidate. Show nested quote +Now that that's out of the way, I'd like to announce my candidacy for Pardoner. There haven't been any clear pardoner candidates yet, so I thought I might as well get the ball rolling. As pardoner, here's what I would do:
1) Attempt to establish clear connections to confirmed townies
I want to try and work with the most active, coolest town people in the game. I would try to coordinate with DTs secretly to attempt to catch scum, I would work with the medic(s) to protect those that need protecting, and the vigilantes to nail confirmed scum.
2) Pardon power roles if necessary
If a confirmed townie ever comes under fire from the town and is about to get lynched, I will pardon and protect them. I cannot stress enough how important it is to keep the confirmed townies, particularly the power roles, alive, as they will be the ones that win us the game. This is all stuff any pardoner should be doing, if they can. The trick of it, just like the mayor's position, is to have developed enough trust with the townies that they're willing to work with you. Both the mayor and the pardoner have a great deal of power, but either of them can still be mafia. In essense, this block of text says nothing that everyone doesn't already know (or at least should know). And your block of text responding to my block of text says even less. I said that for a reason - I wanted to point out that hey, I know how to play pardoner! When you're trying to run for an elected office, it's generally a good idea to, I don't know, prove that you know what your job is if you happen to get elected? You're now fishing pretty deep to find nonexistent "evidence" that proves absolutely nothing about me other than I know what I'm doing. Show nested quote +Here are my credentials:
Have played 2 mafia games before. Won one handily (3 kingdoms) and just barely lost the other (The Life Aquatic). Was townie both times.
I am a standard, green townie this game. No special roles, so I am a low-priority target.
I am completely clean from the day 1 clues, and there is no suspicion against me.
I AM NOT SCUM. Except for the part where the top half of your post exclaims, "I AM SCUM!" at the top of your lungs. Seriously, you probably would have done much better if you had just posted that you were interested in the pardoner position without all the nonsense you led off with. Considering how much a few of the irrational people seem to dislike me, you might have gotten it. Uh, what? I'm actually not sure what this is saying. You want me to do less analysis? Ok, cool... Show nested quote +That last point is the most important one, and let me stress why: It's bad to let a mafia player (or god forbid, the GF) get into any elected role, but especially bad to give them Pardoner. The reasoning is, Pardoner gets a free ability to protect ANYONE from lynch, two times, and we have no way to block it. What this means is, if a mafia has Pardoner role, unless we catch on really quickly, we essentially have to lynch 8 mafia instead of 6, as the pardoner can protect his brethren twice. This is something we DON'T want to happen.
Now consider this. There are 6 mafia. If they vote as a bloc, that probably won't be enough to get any scum into the mayor slot, but seeing as there doesn't seem to be a strong second candidate, that just might be enough to give one of them Pardoner. They can probably hide it pretty well too, by have one of their own announce candidacy for mayor and posting a bunch of stuff so he seems legit, then just having them all vote for him, spreading it out throughout the day so it's even less obvious. I don't want that to happen.
Thus, I want you to elect me for Pardoner. What this means is, I am trying to place SECOND in the mayoral election. Whoever you guys choose for mayor (I'm backing Darth, but it doesn't necessarily have to be him) needs to be ahead of me, but I should be ideally, just one vote behind him. So here's what I'm proposing:
I am voting for myself now. That will give me 1 vote, Darth currently has 4. Two more people should vote for me, then we should go by the following: One person votes for Darth, one votes for me. Thus, we will slowly creep up, I will never tie or pass Darth in terms of voting, and, assuming for random 3rd party candidates, Darth should end up with something like 9 votes, I should then end up with 8. That should be enough to keep the scum out of office. With such a contrived method and keeping the vote counts close as you suggest, the mafia would probably be glad to bump the vote up to make you mayor if you've got enough townies behind you near the end. They could do it and claim noobishness and everyone would shrug saying it's a noob game. Oh look, now we have a mafia mayor. It's true, though. We don't want a mafia mayor OR a mafia pardoner. BrownBear is not someone we want to elect. Meh, that would actually be an effective tactic, if everyone was retarded. Thing is, people aren't. The minute mafia tries to pull a stunt like that, we have at least 3 of them. I explicitly state that my vote count will never exceed Darth's. If I were mafia, and my teammates tried to bump me ahead of him last minute, I'm very certain that people would see that, think "hmmm, now why would those people vote against the very clear plan that was laid out?" and all 3 of us would likely go down. The mafia plan you have laid out here is just plain silly. Show nested quote +I hope you all agree with me. I think my stance is clear here. :D All this being said, I would still be ok a third candidate for the elections. On on! And I think my stance is clear here :D Before, I just thought you were an overzealous new player who really really really wanted to be mayor, which I can't really fault. But now, I'm seriously starting to question you. PS this is also not intended to be a personal attack against you I love the fact that you're being so active, keep it up! Dude I always thought it was Finger of Suspicion.
How about we just call it the Finger of Suck? Flip Off Scum? I could think of a few more vulgar things as well... :D Lets just call it The Finger.
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On June 04 2010 13:23 crate wrote:YellowInk has put more words in the thread than probably anyone else. Much of it has been jumping on mistakes and claiming that he's clean and can be confirmed, a good deal of the rest has been poking holes in plans. I don't recall him saying what he'd do with his mayor lynch if he wins, but I could have missed it in my skimming the thread again in his sheer number of posts.
All of this is true, though it's worth elaborating (since many people seem to miss the point of it) that the fact that there is one clear clue on me makes me easier to create evidence that I am clean (even with a rolecheck block ability). This is what puts me ahead of candidates given a blank slate. Add to this my posting style and choice of strategy and it makes it highly unlikely that I am red.
I had not stated what I would do with my lynch yet. The answer to this is a bit complicated, but since you requested it, it's worth laying out here. The short answer is that I would work with the pardoner to target a relatively inactive poster who has raised suspicion for some reason. If people wanted flexibility rather than just trusting to our judgement, I would be fine with putting together a short list and having the group vote on it.
The reason for doing it this way is because someone who is completely inactive will be modkilled. If I use my lynch on someone who is probably going to get modkilled anyway, this is a wasted lynch. Because I do want to encourage real participation, my lynch target would be someone who is relatively inactive. For example, despite that I am suspicious of BB, Zeks, and LD, none of these people would be the target of my lynch. I havn't put together anything comprehensive yet, but if the day ended right now and I were mayor and had to choose, targets would be people more like AcrossFiveJulys, ElyAs, or deconduo. These are people who have clues pointed at them, have contributed little or nothing to the thread, but have posted and so are avoiding a modkill. No, I'm not convinced that any of these targets are scum, but this method of choosing a target will give us decent odds at hitting one, encourage real participation, and not be wasteful with the lynch.
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PS - AcrossFiveJulys, ElyAs, deconduo, (and anyone else who is in the same position) participate in the discussion more and you won't be on this kind of a list! I'm not looking to knock you off, you just made good examples of this type of player thus far in the thread.
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On June 04 2010 13:48 DarthThienAn wrote:
(reading YellowInk's response) I disagree with the bit about the modkill. I'd rather kill someone who's going to die anyway and preserve the town population count at this point. Maybe as a day 2 or 3 thing where we have more information, but at this point, I wouldn't mind lynching an inactive who will be modkilled anyway.
For the sake of argument, consider a game of mafia where we had no roles except vanilla townie and vanilla scum. It's clear that in a game like this, you never want to waste a lynch - it's the only way townies have a way to kill scum ever, even if it's completely random it is a net zero play. In truth, at the end of day 1 we do have some information, though it is limited - we have all of the posts that people have made thus far. So choosing a lynch victim based on the information we have is a pro townie play, even if it is still somewhat random.
Now consider a regular game with roles like the one we're actually playing. If one were to argue that wasting the first lynch is pro town because we havn't done any investigating yet, this is implying that as the game goes on, the game evolves into a state where townies continuously gain advantage over time. This simply isn't the case. On day 2 and sometimes day 3, the town will still have little to no real 'hard evidence' on anyone. Our lynch victims will be chosen based on various reasonings - mostly that we think either the target is scum, or that if the target is revealed to be town it will strongly imply that someone else is scum, or to encourage a certain behavior (being active) so that we gain the capacity to root out the scum. It's the same on day 1 - we choose a lynch victim that will improve the state of the game such that we can find mafia.
I avoid choosing to lynch someone who is likely to be modkilled because lynching such a person does not provide motivation. They were going to die anyway. As such this is a wasted kill. Therefore this does not benefit the town. Per my earlier post, I expect that AFJ, Elyas, and DD will be contributing more to the thread. If they don't, they're ignoring this kind of a warning and should be lynched.
Does this make things clearer?
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Via a PM conversation, a player believes that my calling people out for their errors and laying suspicion on them for it may appear to be a pro mafia style - at least to players who have not played very much (or any) mafia. In reality, it's quite the opposite. Even if there were no elected role, I would be going after these same people aggressively for their errors because I am town. It is the responsibility of every townie to point out when anyone makes flawed arguments or supplies bad information. If we didn't and just trusted each other to pick out the truth from the lies, maybe some townies would be deceived by some of the information some of the time, weakening the townie position.
Consider the flip side - if a mafia player goes after everyone aggressively in the same manner, they're drawing attention to themselves. Such players are likely to be investigated - NOT because a detective necessarily expects them to turn up mafia, but because if they do, it not only gives the DT the name of a mafia, but also a number of people who are highly likely to be town! If a DT were find me mafia, they could reasonably conclude that it's likely that BB, LD, and Zeks are town. Of course this isn't 100% since 1) good mafia players will also cast suspicion on fellow mafia to help avoid this kind of collateral damage and 2) if taken as truth before I am hung, I could be a Miller. In any case, mafia playing aggressively like this can give the town a whole lot of information if and when the truth gets out.
As such, most mafia generally have to play fairly quietly. Enough to maintain a presence in the thread, but not so much that they'll open themselves up to getting caught in a lie or give the town too much information if they are found red. This being said, play styles do vary and some people will play mafia roles counter to this stereotype, but it is a highly risky move for the reasons outlined above.
This is why my aggressive play style gives evidence that I am pro town.
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EPT
