EPTTL Mafia Ban List - Page 96
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~OpZ~
United States3652 Posts
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Sevryn
698 Posts
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GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
SNMM VI Bans ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tA4dp.jpg) Above: What GMarshal had to deal with Okidokie, lets hammer this out, shall we? The bans for Surprisingly Normal Mini Mafia VI, or as I would like to call it: "Modkill Mafia". Let's start with the less controversial and work our way up, first up, bans for inactivity and failure to vote: Edwin5: He was modkilled day 1 for failure to vote/post, even after a 24 hour extension was given to the day. Utterly unacceptable, 1 game ban, and I doubt we'll be seeing him again. Fatesgod: This man was also modkilled day 1, for the same reasons as Edwin5. It amuses me to tie their fates together, give this man a one game ban too. Sknowman: Another tragic story of inactivity and not posting. Lighting took his life day 1 as well. Same punishment as the two others, a straight up one game ban. Thnikkaman47: Almost a worse offense than the people above he played through day 1, and day 2 decided to stop playing without informing me, and failed to vote. Standard 1 game ban. Summary: Edwin5, Fatesgod, Sknowman and Thnikkaman47 all need 1 game bans. Onto the next issue, one which should require very little debate, if any; raynpelikoneet. raynpelikoneet stands here accused of deliberate sabotage of his win conditions, this is in direct opposition to the "Play to win" rule, which reads: On September 12 2011 10:10 GMarshal wrote: Play to win. This means you play your best to help your team win while you are alive and in the game. However, this does not mean that you should try to win by being a jerk to the other players so they all want to quit playing. During the course of night 1 raynpelikoneet was killed by a bomberman in LotR Mafia, which raynpelikoneet thought was a modkill, which aggravated him to the point where claimed mafia in the thread, with the intent of being modkilled sabotaging his win condition, and also possibly violating the strategic modkill clause. Here is the offending post in question: On October 01 2011 10:18 raynpelikoneet wrote: I don't want to play any more mafia games on TL becAuse of my worst ever reasoned modkill on LoTR mafia. I'm a mafia goon, and mod's should kill me. THX! No matter how aggravated he was at LotR Mafia, or any perceived injustice against him his behavior is utterly unacceptable and inexcusable. Due to his repentant attitude, and relative newness I will not be requesting a semi-permanent ban, but instead a 5 game ban. I will not be swayed on this. Summary: raynpelikoneet should be banned for 5 games. Here is the final ban stemming from SNMMVI, and the less simple one. zany_001 zany_001 was lynched and modkilled day 2, he was modkilled for failure to vote, which means a one game ban. However thats where the simplicity ends, because douring the dawn of day 2, zany_001, claimed to be a mafia goon, like raynpelikoneet above. However he did it as a "ploy" you see, when he did that he also accused a townie of being his teammate, in an attempt to incriminate the townie. However this presented a serious problem to the hosts, I'll quote chaoser here, since he was kind enough to spell it out On October 07 2011 03:21 chaoser wrote: Seriously, don't ever do this. I don't care if you didn't "mean" to be cheating or that it was a ploy. There are rules in the OP. Those rules get followed. The moment you slip on those rules is the moment you say fuck you to the game. The rules said to play to win and claiming you are mafia and then "outting" your team is not only using an "outside-the-game" mechanic but also opens the way to everyone else trying to claim mafia and "outting others" and seeing if they'll get modkilled or not. Everyone knows outting your team is a bannable offense, a PERMANENT BANNABLE OFFENSE. So a fake "outting" not only confirms the other member as town but also doesn't work because since you won't be banned for a fake outting, everyone knows that. If you get lynched and flip mafia then: 1) you fake outted 2) the person you outted is town 3) you're mafia Another situation that could go down is that you're actually town, you pretend to out your team. You don't get banned. You claim that since you didn't get banned that you are not mafia. In both situations outside-the-game mechanics are used to prove yourself as either mafia or not. This is basically the same thing as comparing PMs. Don't ever do it again. On October 07 2011 06:18 chaoser wrote: and probably this one applies too It's not unique and unexpected. It's breaking the rules by forcing the host into a situation of modkilling. The OP clearly states that handing out your mafia member list is cheating and will be severely punished. If you had actually handed out your list you would be automatically banned. If you hand out a fake list after claiming you are mafia, you are clearly forcing the host into deciding whether to modkill you or not. You didn't actually break any rules since you didn't out a real list and so technically you can't be modkilled but then that "non-modkill" can be seen by town as a "Mod Confirm" that you did nothing wrong aka you are townie. If every single townie did that then the game becomes about being modkilled. Your tactic involved circumventing the rules and that doesn't fly here. This is a clear violation of rules that should be evident, at first I was tempted to go with a straight up 5 game ban, but after some thought I have decided that due to his relative newness and the fact that he was not totally aware of the rules, a three game ban is more suitable. This one I am more willing to debate, however I stand by the fact that he violated the rules and ,regardless of intent, rules are here to preserve the integrity of the game, thus violations must be punished. Summary: 3 game ban for zany_001 for attempting to abuse out of game mechanics. Conclusion: 1 game bans for: Edwin5, Fatesgod, Sknowman and Thnikkaman47 3 game ban for: zany_001 5 game ban for: raynpelikoneet That is all ladies and gentlemen. | ||
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chaoser
United States5541 Posts
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OriginalName
Canada1140 Posts
Fatesgod: This man was also modkilled day 1, for the same reasons as Edwin5. It amuses me to tie their fates together, give this man a one game ban too. I gave him a swirly for this, all in all I dont think it was bad he quit though, that game seemed to be a cluster fuck. + Show Spoiler + He was my younger brother for those who were wondering. | ||
flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
~Opz~, it's a layer of redundancy that can help sort out confusion. Perhaps somebody means to sit out a game but forgets to post here. After the game's started, there's nothing said person can do about it. However, if he or she PMs the relevant host that host can step in and inform me. GMarshal, I concur with your choices. I'd like a few more people to post consent (or discussion through objections) before I add them. | ||
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Qatol
United States3165 Posts
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
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iGrok
United States5142 Posts
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redFF
United States3910 Posts
 zany did something he didn't really know was wrong, and still thought he was playing to his win condition. His action was rash and he didn't think through any of the stuff that chaoser posted obviously, and just decided to do something "clever" and "risky" in his first mafia game. I'd say a warning for him tbh. He didn't explicitly know it was wrong. That's what im getting from that whole thing, correct me if im wrong. | ||
Mig
United States4714 Posts
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Forumite
Sweden3280 Posts
On October 19 2011 12:38 Mig wrote: I agree with GM's choices. I originally wanted a harsher punishment for Rayn, but he has been very repentant and apologized so I am fine with 5. Once again into the breach. I´m of the opinion that harsher punishment doesn´t teach him a lesson, it only pushes him away, and I´d rather see a lesser punishment but with a chance that he´ll return, than a harsh punishment, which is really a permanent ban in disguise. If he is repentant then I suggest a 3-game Ban rather than a 5-game Ban. Yes, what he did was unacceptable, but it was originally based on him misreading being killed at night as a modkill. The whole situation started as a misunderstanding, which is what sparked it all. Also I know that if he has to sit out 5 games on TL-Mafia, which is about 4-5 months, then he will not play any more games on TL, ever, guaranteed. If he wants to play Mafia then he will find another place to do so before the 4 months of ban is finally over. With a 3-game ban then perhaps he will have the patience to wait through the 3 games, but 5 games, no chance, he will op-out of a few games, but will grow tired of it in a month of nothing happening, and won´t be here when it´s time to op-out of the 2nd, 3rd, 4th or 5th game. Everyone is eager to burn him on the stakes, I guess it´s the lynching mentality of Mafia, but even if he has learned his lesson because of the current outrage, he won´t ever return unless we give him a chance. Makes me consider a mafia game that doesn´t use the banlist, so those under long bans can play some at least. | ||
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GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On October 19 2011 19:46 Forumite wrote: Once again into the breach. I´m of the opinion that harsher punishment doesn´t teach him a lesson, it only pushes him away, and I´d rather see a lesser punishment but with a chance that he´ll return, than a harsh punishment, which is really a permanent ban in disguise. If he is repentant then I suggest a 3-game Ban rather than a 5-game Ban. Yes, what he did was unacceptable, but it was originally based on him misreading being killed at night as a modkill. The whole situation started as a misunderstanding, which is what sparked it all. Also I know that if he has to sit out 5 games on TL-Mafia, which is about 4-5 months, then he will not play any more games on TL, ever, guaranteed. If he wants to play Mafia then he will find another place to do so before the 4 months of ban is finally over. With a 3-game ban then perhaps he will have the patience to wait through the 3 games, but 5 games, no chance, he will op-out of a few games, but will grow tired of it in a month of nothing happening, and won´t be here when it´s time to op-out of the 2nd, 3rd, 4th or 5th game. Everyone is eager to burn him on the stakes, I guess it´s the lynching mentality of Mafia, but even if he has learned his lesson because of the current outrage, he won´t ever return unless we give him a chance. Makes me consider a mafia game that doesn´t use the banlist, so those under long bans can play some at least. I disagree , the punishment is not just a punishment for him, but an example for others who follow, his repentance has already been taken into account (if he had been a dick about ragequitting I'd be pushing for a semi-permanent or permanent ban), if we diminish the punishment because of him being "repentant" we are teaching people that pulling dick moves like that is fine, as long as you are sorry later. The fact is, what he did would usually merit more severe punishment, by "only" giving him a 5 game ban I am showing leniency. If he cares enough to stay and play the difference between 3 and 5 is not that huge, its about 2-3 more weeks of not playing. He fucked up big time, there are consequences for that. In real life if I commit arson the Judge isn't going to give a damn if I'm very sorry about it, I still committed a crime. Same deal here. If he cares enough to stay, then I will be very happy, but if our "harshness" pushes him away, then so be it, punishments are here for a reason. His actions really have no mitigating factors. I can be overruled or argued down of course, but I stand by my original decision, as much as we need active players (and Rayn looks like a very promising, active player) we need to make sure that the idea that certain behaviors are unacceptable is enforced, for the sake of future games. | ||
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Forumite
Sweden3280 Posts
On October 20 2011 02:17 GMarshal wrote: If he cares enough to stay, then I will be very happy, but if our "harshness" pushes him away, then so be it, punishments are here for a reason. His actions really have no mitigating factors. I can be overruled or argued down of course, but I stand by my original decision, as much as we need active players (and Rayn looks like a very promising, active player) we need to make sure that the idea that certain behaviors are unacceptable is enforced, for the sake of future games. I think the discussion in here makes the point that this kind of behavior is not acceptable. As for the comparison to real crimes like Arson, I don´t think the real world applies here. This is a games forum, what we do only affect our games, we don´t NEED to punish harshly if we don´t want to. It´s not like people will stop getting modkilled if Rayn gets a 3-game ban, but those 2 extra games is likely 1-2 months longer wait, and Rayn, a very promising and active player, might not be around for that. The gain of a longer ban hurts Rayn, and might cause him to leave TL Mafia forever, while the longer ban doesn´t really help us. Anyway, I didn´t see any of this first hand, it isn´t up to me and the final ruling has no bearing on me. I just prefer lesser punishment on principle. | ||
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chaoser
United States5541 Posts
A 3 game ban is probably 2-3 months. Outting yourself intentionally is much less worse than outting your whole team but it's still "not playing to your win condition". I don't think it would ever deserve a semi-perm though since it would count as a strategic modkill and I don't think I've ever seen anyone been semi-permed for that. A 5 game or 4 game ban is a fine and fair sentencing. I would rather have both rayn and zany's sentences be the same though (either both at 4 or both at 5). @Forumite If we're going to offer leniency to "promising newbie players" then we might as well offer them to "veteran contributors/players" as well and then where do we stop? We're using precedent from previous games as well as the host's opinion on deciding the ruling and from both of those this seems like a fair ruling. If we offered leniency every single time then what's to prevent others from doing it in the future? A promising game showing (debatable) shouldn't get someone off from doing their time. | ||
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Forumite
Sweden3280 Posts
On October 20 2011 04:40 chaoser wrote: @Forumite If we're going to offer leniency to "promising newbie players" then we might as well offer them to "veteran contributors/players" as well and then where do we stop? We're using precedent from previous games as well as the host's opinion on deciding the ruling and from both of those this seems like a fair ruling. If we offered leniency every single time then what's to prevent others from doing it in the future? A promising game showing (debatable) shouldn't get someone off from doing their time. We can always set a new precedent. There are about 80-100 players on the banlist, most of them were modkilled for inactivity and then never showed up to opt out of a game, even though they only had a one-game ban. With the option of playing on TL in a month or playing somewhere else right away, they stayed away. It´s no surprise that there are twice as many banned as people who have been taken off the list. New players get banned and then never come back. | ||
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chaoser
United States5541 Posts
There are about 80-100 players on the banlist, most of them were modkilled for inactivity and then never showed up to opt out of a game, even though they only had a one-game ban. If they can't even bother to sit out one game after signing up for a game and never posting once in the thread then I'd rather they stay out (this is the majority of the people on the list that got a 1 game ban). We don't need 80-100 more new players. I'd rather have 3-5 more good players that respect the rules than a shit ton that can't even handle a mini-game's activity level. 5-8 of those in a regular game and it'll be mafia win every time. | ||
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Forumite
Sweden3280 Posts
Question, does anyone remember what Bill Murray did to get his permanent ban? | ||
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chaoser
United States5541 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=114622¤tpage=92#1828 It's still considered a semi-perm ban. He has a long list of problems. | ||
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Forumite
Sweden3280 Posts
Just curious, he´s still around despite the ban 6 months ago. | ||
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