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Coagulation
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States9633 Posts
April 27 2011 04:07 GMT
#1361
[image loading]
Kenpachi
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States9908 Posts
April 27 2011 04:09 GMT
#1362
LOL
Nada's body is South Korea's greatest weapon.
Qatol
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
United States3165 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-27 04:18:51
April 27 2011 04:09 GMT
#1363
On April 27 2011 12:42 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Well, I think Qatol's point is that Coag was acting insane and abrasive BEFORE any of the shit went down with the pardon and protact. So saying "I was mad because of all the shit in the game" may be a valid defense for what happened after the events, it doesn't excuse his previous behavior.

Although in Coag's defense, I don't think he was directly warned until after the first incident (judging by Qatol's log post).

Yes, this is my point. And yes he was warned on day 2 before the first incident. Also, there were 3 warnings, 1 in particular he should have guessed was aimed at him (talking about allcaps posting).

On April 27 2011 12:52 BrownBear wrote:
My opinion is at least some of his anger is justified. His team did kinda get screwed over, and Meapak did tell him to "be an ass" in thread. That said, nothing can excuse the level to which he took his anger and the level to which he shit all over the thread. "Be an ass" does not equal "make the game unplayable for everyone except you".

However, I tend to be a forgiving guy. So, I'm still going to support only a one game ban PROVIDED Coag agrees to the following things:

-I think he should apologize to his team and to anyone else who he offended in game. He can just write a general apology, but it should be meaningful, not a flippant "lol sorry".
-Also, he has said he's going to work to manage his behavior in the future. I believe him, but still I think if he ever gets modkilled for behavioral issues again, we should consider something like a 4-5 game ban.


On the subject of behavioral vs. inactivity modkills - it really depends on the situation. In this game, obviously, the behavior was more disruptive than the inactivity, but there was also a recent game where a DT checked a red, got back red, and then went inactive and didnt get the red lynched, in pretty much a LYLO situation. That really screwed town over worse than any spammer/flamer.

So unless we want to split up the punishments between inactivity and behavior, which seems like way too much work for Qatol, I vote we leave it as is.

This doesn't make any sense. You want a 1 game ban, but you want the punishments to be the same for behavior and inactivity? If the punishments are the same, he is getting a 3 game ban because he has a previous modkill. The only way what you are saying here makes sense is if you want different rules for how bans work. Is that what you want?

EDIT: to be clear, the reason I am talking about this is he has a previous ban. The usual policy is for ban lengths to be 1 game, 3 game, 5 games etc. So for a second ban, a standard ban length is 3 games because of the previous ban. If you think the ban should be shorter, please explain why this case is more exceptional than an inactivity modkill (which would produce a 3 game ban).
Uff Da
Kenpachi
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States9908 Posts
April 27 2011 04:09 GMT
#1364
Woosh im a valkyrie. and that marked my 6000th post. fffffffff
Nada's body is South Korea's greatest weapon.
Ver
Profile Joined October 2008
United States2186 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-27 04:13:44
April 27 2011 04:13 GMT
#1365
Liquipedia
Coagulation
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States9633 Posts
April 27 2011 04:16 GMT
#1366
On April 27 2011 13:09 Qatol wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2011 12:42 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Well, I think Qatol's point is that Coag was acting insane and abrasive BEFORE any of the shit went down with the pardon and protact. So saying "I was mad because of all the shit in the game" may be a valid defense for what happened after the events, it doesn't excuse his previous behavior.

Although in Coag's defense, I don't think he was directly warned until after the first incident (judging by Qatol's log post).

Yes, this is my point. And yes he was warned on day 2 before the first incident. Also, there were 3 warnings, 1 in particular he should have guessed was aimed at him (talking about allcaps posting).

Show nested quote +
On April 27 2011 12:52 BrownBear wrote:
My opinion is at least some of his anger is justified. His team did kinda get screwed over, and Meapak did tell him to "be an ass" in thread. That said, nothing can excuse the level to which he took his anger and the level to which he shit all over the thread. "Be an ass" does not equal "make the game unplayable for everyone except you".

However, I tend to be a forgiving guy. So, I'm still going to support only a one game ban PROVIDED Coag agrees to the following things:

-I think he should apologize to his team and to anyone else who he offended in game. He can just write a general apology, but it should be meaningful, not a flippant "lol sorry".
-Also, he has said he's going to work to manage his behavior in the future. I believe him, but still I think if he ever gets modkilled for behavioral issues again, we should consider something like a 4-5 game ban.


On the subject of behavioral vs. inactivity modkills - it really depends on the situation. In this game, obviously, the behavior was more disruptive than the inactivity, but there was also a recent game where a DT checked a red, got back red, and then went inactive and didnt get the red lynched, in pretty much a LYLO situation. That really screwed town over worse than any spammer/flamer.

So unless we want to split up the punishments between inactivity and behavior, which seems like way too much work for Qatol, I vote we leave it as is.

This doesn't make any sense. You want a 1 game ban, but you want the punishments to be the same for behavior and inactivity? If the punishments are the same, he is getting a 3 game ban because he has a previous modkill. The only way what you are saying here makes sense is if you want different rules for how bans work. Is that what you want?


now your saying if people want to give me mercy we have to change the whole ban system? i dont understand the point of opening up discussion to see if people think i should be banned or not if your just gonna keep responding with "well thats not the way the system works"
Qatol
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
United States3165 Posts
April 27 2011 04:17 GMT
#1367
On April 27 2011 13:06 Ver wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2011 01:20 Qatol wrote:
On April 26 2011 22:25 Zona wrote:
I'll sit out 39. (This is the last game on my ban, btw, I've already sat out 2.)

You did? I have it marked as you have only sat out 1 game from this ban. Did I miss a sitting out post/PM somewhere?

And as for Coagulation, it seems everyone except Coagulation who has weighed in wants a standard ban for him at this point? I think I'm going to end this discussion in ~12 hours to give Coagulation some finality, so if you want to weigh in, do it now.


http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=114622&currentpage=17#338

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=114622&currentpage=21#409

These two seem to indicate two bans sat out if I am not mistaken.

As for coag, the day 1/early day 2 logs are BM level excessive. The hosts seem to be okay with a 1 game ban though. If you want something more than 1 game but not a game ban BB, how about he gets banned from insulting people and using caps lock in future games lol.

Yes, but for there to be 1 game remaining on his ban, there should be 3 games sat out, 1 from his first (1 game) ban and 2 from his second (3 game) ban. The first sit out you linked to is from his 1 game ban.
Uff Da
Qatol
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
United States3165 Posts
April 27 2011 04:21 GMT
#1368
On April 27 2011 13:16 Coagulation wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2011 13:09 Qatol wrote:
On April 27 2011 12:42 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Well, I think Qatol's point is that Coag was acting insane and abrasive BEFORE any of the shit went down with the pardon and protact. So saying "I was mad because of all the shit in the game" may be a valid defense for what happened after the events, it doesn't excuse his previous behavior.

Although in Coag's defense, I don't think he was directly warned until after the first incident (judging by Qatol's log post).

Yes, this is my point. And yes he was warned on day 2 before the first incident. Also, there were 3 warnings, 1 in particular he should have guessed was aimed at him (talking about allcaps posting).

On April 27 2011 12:52 BrownBear wrote:
My opinion is at least some of his anger is justified. His team did kinda get screwed over, and Meapak did tell him to "be an ass" in thread. That said, nothing can excuse the level to which he took his anger and the level to which he shit all over the thread. "Be an ass" does not equal "make the game unplayable for everyone except you".

However, I tend to be a forgiving guy. So, I'm still going to support only a one game ban PROVIDED Coag agrees to the following things:

-I think he should apologize to his team and to anyone else who he offended in game. He can just write a general apology, but it should be meaningful, not a flippant "lol sorry".
-Also, he has said he's going to work to manage his behavior in the future. I believe him, but still I think if he ever gets modkilled for behavioral issues again, we should consider something like a 4-5 game ban.


On the subject of behavioral vs. inactivity modkills - it really depends on the situation. In this game, obviously, the behavior was more disruptive than the inactivity, but there was also a recent game where a DT checked a red, got back red, and then went inactive and didnt get the red lynched, in pretty much a LYLO situation. That really screwed town over worse than any spammer/flamer.

So unless we want to split up the punishments between inactivity and behavior, which seems like way too much work for Qatol, I vote we leave it as is.

This doesn't make any sense. You want a 1 game ban, but you want the punishments to be the same for behavior and inactivity? If the punishments are the same, he is getting a 3 game ban because he has a previous modkill. The only way what you are saying here makes sense is if you want different rules for how bans work. Is that what you want?


now your saying if people want to give me mercy we have to change the whole ban system? i dont understand the point of opening up discussion to see if people think i should be banned or not if your just gonna keep responding with "well thats not the way the system works"

We can do that, but people aren't even thinking about the system, they keep saying that more than 1 is unfair without talking about the system at all. I'm saying that the case is usually pretty exceptional to reduce what is usually a 3 game ban to a 1 game ban. Nobody is really explaining why this case is so exceptional. Therefore, I conclude that they disagree with how the ban list system works, but people aren't explaining how they would like to see it work either.
Uff Da
BloodyC0bbler
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
Canada7876 Posts
April 27 2011 04:23 GMT
#1369
On April 27 2011 13:21 Qatol wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2011 13:16 Coagulation wrote:
On April 27 2011 13:09 Qatol wrote:
On April 27 2011 12:42 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Well, I think Qatol's point is that Coag was acting insane and abrasive BEFORE any of the shit went down with the pardon and protact. So saying "I was mad because of all the shit in the game" may be a valid defense for what happened after the events, it doesn't excuse his previous behavior.

Although in Coag's defense, I don't think he was directly warned until after the first incident (judging by Qatol's log post).

Yes, this is my point. And yes he was warned on day 2 before the first incident. Also, there were 3 warnings, 1 in particular he should have guessed was aimed at him (talking about allcaps posting).

On April 27 2011 12:52 BrownBear wrote:
My opinion is at least some of his anger is justified. His team did kinda get screwed over, and Meapak did tell him to "be an ass" in thread. That said, nothing can excuse the level to which he took his anger and the level to which he shit all over the thread. "Be an ass" does not equal "make the game unplayable for everyone except you".

However, I tend to be a forgiving guy. So, I'm still going to support only a one game ban PROVIDED Coag agrees to the following things:

-I think he should apologize to his team and to anyone else who he offended in game. He can just write a general apology, but it should be meaningful, not a flippant "lol sorry".
-Also, he has said he's going to work to manage his behavior in the future. I believe him, but still I think if he ever gets modkilled for behavioral issues again, we should consider something like a 4-5 game ban.


On the subject of behavioral vs. inactivity modkills - it really depends on the situation. In this game, obviously, the behavior was more disruptive than the inactivity, but there was also a recent game where a DT checked a red, got back red, and then went inactive and didnt get the red lynched, in pretty much a LYLO situation. That really screwed town over worse than any spammer/flamer.

So unless we want to split up the punishments between inactivity and behavior, which seems like way too much work for Qatol, I vote we leave it as is.

This doesn't make any sense. You want a 1 game ban, but you want the punishments to be the same for behavior and inactivity? If the punishments are the same, he is getting a 3 game ban because he has a previous modkill. The only way what you are saying here makes sense is if you want different rules for how bans work. Is that what you want?


now your saying if people want to give me mercy we have to change the whole ban system? i dont understand the point of opening up discussion to see if people think i should be banned or not if your just gonna keep responding with "well thats not the way the system works"

We can do that, but people aren't even thinking about the system, they keep saying that more than 1 is unfair without talking about the system at all. I'm saying that the case is usually pretty exceptional to reduce what is usually a 3 game ban to a 1 game ban. Nobody is really explaining why this case is so exceptional. Therefore, I conclude that they disagree with how the ban list system works, but people aren't explaining how they would like to see it work either.


Dont cherry pick the system. You are opting to punish one person while exempting others from punishment. The reason for lowering his 3 game ban to 1 is to accomodate the fact that leniency is being shown to more than 3 vets. IF they were being punished I would have far less of a problem with coag taking 3 bans as per norm, but you can't expect him to sit back and eat 3 when people who did have a major factor in his behaviour get off scott free while doing something far worse.

Exceptions exist to all rules.
#3 Member of the Chill Fanclub / Rhaegar fought nobly. Rhaegar fought valiantly. Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaeger died. --Ser Jorah Mormont TL MAFIA FORUM http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/index.php?show_part=31 go go !
Coagulation
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States9633 Posts
April 27 2011 04:25 GMT
#1370
qatol you said yourself in irc you would support me getting only a 1 game ban if i promised i wouldnt ever spam or capslock again in thread. i dont see why everyone else is doing the same thing and your fighting it.
Qatol
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
United States3165 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-27 04:29:44
April 27 2011 04:26 GMT
#1371
On April 27 2011 13:23 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2011 13:21 Qatol wrote:
On April 27 2011 13:16 Coagulation wrote:
On April 27 2011 13:09 Qatol wrote:
On April 27 2011 12:42 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Well, I think Qatol's point is that Coag was acting insane and abrasive BEFORE any of the shit went down with the pardon and protact. So saying "I was mad because of all the shit in the game" may be a valid defense for what happened after the events, it doesn't excuse his previous behavior.

Although in Coag's defense, I don't think he was directly warned until after the first incident (judging by Qatol's log post).

Yes, this is my point. And yes he was warned on day 2 before the first incident. Also, there were 3 warnings, 1 in particular he should have guessed was aimed at him (talking about allcaps posting).

On April 27 2011 12:52 BrownBear wrote:
My opinion is at least some of his anger is justified. His team did kinda get screwed over, and Meapak did tell him to "be an ass" in thread. That said, nothing can excuse the level to which he took his anger and the level to which he shit all over the thread. "Be an ass" does not equal "make the game unplayable for everyone except you".

However, I tend to be a forgiving guy. So, I'm still going to support only a one game ban PROVIDED Coag agrees to the following things:

-I think he should apologize to his team and to anyone else who he offended in game. He can just write a general apology, but it should be meaningful, not a flippant "lol sorry".
-Also, he has said he's going to work to manage his behavior in the future. I believe him, but still I think if he ever gets modkilled for behavioral issues again, we should consider something like a 4-5 game ban.


On the subject of behavioral vs. inactivity modkills - it really depends on the situation. In this game, obviously, the behavior was more disruptive than the inactivity, but there was also a recent game where a DT checked a red, got back red, and then went inactive and didnt get the red lynched, in pretty much a LYLO situation. That really screwed town over worse than any spammer/flamer.

So unless we want to split up the punishments between inactivity and behavior, which seems like way too much work for Qatol, I vote we leave it as is.

This doesn't make any sense. You want a 1 game ban, but you want the punishments to be the same for behavior and inactivity? If the punishments are the same, he is getting a 3 game ban because he has a previous modkill. The only way what you are saying here makes sense is if you want different rules for how bans work. Is that what you want?


now your saying if people want to give me mercy we have to change the whole ban system? i dont understand the point of opening up discussion to see if people think i should be banned or not if your just gonna keep responding with "well thats not the way the system works"

We can do that, but people aren't even thinking about the system, they keep saying that more than 1 is unfair without talking about the system at all. I'm saying that the case is usually pretty exceptional to reduce what is usually a 3 game ban to a 1 game ban. Nobody is really explaining why this case is so exceptional. Therefore, I conclude that they disagree with how the ban list system works, but people aren't explaining how they would like to see it work either.


Dont cherry pick the system. You are opting to punish one person while exempting others from punishment. The reason for lowering his 3 game ban to 1 is to accomodate the fact that leniency is being shown to more than 3 vets. IF they were being punished I would have far less of a problem with coag taking 3 bans as per norm, but you can't expect him to sit back and eat 3 when people who did have a major factor in his behaviour get off scott free while doing something far worse.

Exceptions exist to all rules.

Dammit stop posting about that here. This discussion is not about Protactinium. It is only even tangentally related to Protactinium. PLUS, Protactinium's punishment hasn't been determined yet. I'm sick of your attitude on this. I'm about ready to just turn all of this over to the TL staff.

EDIT: He kept pushing over IM. Whatever, I'm done with this. You people deal with it yourselves.
Uff Da
bumatlarge
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States4567 Posts
April 27 2011 04:33 GMT
#1372
oh noes... everyone go happytown now?

Coagulation, can you not just man up, ask for a three game ban, take it and we never question you again. You will walk by pedestrians and people will say, "There goes coagulation! He asked for a 3 game ban!" Then you could cut their awe with a knife! Do this for me coag, no wait not for me, for you. You have potential to earn real respect here.
Together but separate, like oatmeal
RebirthOfLeGenD
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
USA5860 Posts
April 27 2011 05:10 GMT
#1373
[image loading]
Be a man, Become a Legend. TL Mafia Forum Ask for access!!
citi.zen
Profile Joined April 2009
2509 Posts
April 27 2011 05:41 GMT
#1374
I keep thinking the fundamental reason for creating this sub-forum was to have a message-board helping hosts run better games.

This sort of ban used to be simple: in 99% of cases the host asked for a recourse, Qatol marked it down as a neutral 3rd party and it was a done deal!

Now there's all this back and forth with every ban, everyone and their grandmother feels they need to chime in, argue their case to multiple people, etc. Qatol is suddenly in the middle of it all, in the untenable spot of having to respond to everyone and defend every ban as if it's the product of the "Qatol code of laws", which is just not fair.

I would suggest going back to a simpler procedure:

1. The host of the game in question proposes a penalty
2. Other veteran hosts (say with 5+ games hosted) get a say, if they desire to weigh in at all.
3. If there is a tie, someone well regarded like Ver breaks it.
4. Sleep well knowing people with a solid track record handle these situations in a simple and considerate manner.
Aut viam inveniam, aut faciam.
Coagulation
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States9633 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-27 05:48:40
April 27 2011 05:48 GMT
#1375
On April 27 2011 14:10 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Fatality
chaoser
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States5541 Posts
April 27 2011 05:48 GMT
#1376
On April 27 2011 14:41 citi.zen wrote:
I keep thinking the fundamental reason for creating this sub-forum was to have a message-board helping hosts run better games.

This sort of ban used to be simple: in 99% of cases the host asked for a recourse, Qatol marked it down as a neutral 3rd party and it was a done deal!

Now there's all this back and forth with every ban, everyone and their grandmother feels they need to chime in, argue their case to multiple people, etc. Qatol is suddenly in the middle of it all, in the untenable spot of having to respond to everyone and defend every ban as if it's the product of the "Qatol code of laws", which is just not fair.

I would suggest going back to a simpler procedure:

1. The host of the game in question proposes a penalty
2. Other veteran hosts (say with 5+ games hosted) get a say, if they desire to weigh in at all.
3. If there is a tie, someone well regarded like Ver breaks it.
4. Sleep well knowing people with a solid track record handle these situations in a simple and considerate manner.


+1 Concur
Haven't you heard? I'm not an ex-progamer. I'm not a poker player. I'm not an admin of the site. I'm mother fucking Rekrul.
Zona
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
40426 Posts
April 27 2011 06:27 GMT
#1377
On April 27 2011 13:17 Qatol wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2011 13:06 Ver wrote:
On April 27 2011 01:20 Qatol wrote:
On April 26 2011 22:25 Zona wrote:
I'll sit out 39. (This is the last game on my ban, btw, I've already sat out 2.)

You did? I have it marked as you have only sat out 1 game from this ban. Did I miss a sitting out post/PM somewhere?

And as for Coagulation, it seems everyone except Coagulation who has weighed in wants a standard ban for him at this point? I think I'm going to end this discussion in ~12 hours to give Coagulation some finality, so if you want to weigh in, do it now.


http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=114622&currentpage=17#338

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=114622&currentpage=21#409

These two seem to indicate two bans sat out if I am not mistaken.

As for coag, the day 1/early day 2 logs are BM level excessive. The hosts seem to be okay with a 1 game ban though. If you want something more than 1 game but not a game ban BB, how about he gets banned from insulting people and using caps lock in future games lol.

Yes, but for there to be 1 game remaining on his ban, there should be 3 games sat out, 1 from his first (1 game) ban and 2 from his second (3 game) ban. The first sit out you linked to is from his 1 game ban.

no it's not. My one game ban was ages before.
"If you try responding to those absurd posts every day, you become more damaged. So I pay no attention to them at all." Jung Myung Hoon (aka Fantasy), as translated by Kimoleon
Rean
Profile Joined February 2011
Netherlands808 Posts
April 27 2011 11:12 GMT
#1378
Acknowledging the ban request for inactivity from iGrok's Sleeper Cell here. Will be sitting out XXXIX.
GMarshal
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States22154 Posts
April 27 2011 13:20 GMT
#1379
On April 27 2011 14:48 chaoser wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2011 14:41 citi.zen wrote:
I keep thinking the fundamental reason for creating this sub-forum was to have a message-board helping hosts run better games.

This sort of ban used to be simple: in 99% of cases the host asked for a recourse, Qatol marked it down as a neutral 3rd party and it was a done deal!

Now there's all this back and forth with every ban, everyone and their grandmother feels they need to chime in, argue their case to multiple people, etc. Qatol is suddenly in the middle of it all, in the untenable spot of having to respond to everyone and defend every ban as if it's the product of the "Qatol code of laws", which is just not fair.

I would suggest going back to a simpler procedure:

1. The host of the game in question proposes a penalty
2. Other veteran hosts (say with 5+ games hosted) get a say, if they desire to weigh in at all.
3. If there is a tie, someone well regarded like Ver breaks it.
4. Sleep well knowing people with a solid track record handle these situations in a simple and considerate manner.


+1 Concur


I third this idea, whatever BB decided the punishment for coag should be should go, with no need for tangents, discussion or arguing. People should only need to weigh in if its relevant (e.g. "did coag shit up the mafia IRC?"), in the end its the decision of the hosts that really matters in the end, as they can decide if they allow certain players in their games/if they follow the ban list.
Moderator
Impervious
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Canada4217 Posts
April 27 2011 13:39 GMT
#1380
Out of 3 games I've played, 2 had people confused about when the voting times were (or at least claimed that was why they weren't active before a deadline)..... Is this a fairly common thing, or have I just picked an unusual sampling of games to check out?

If it is somewhat common, maybe using the [ Time] [ /Time] code would be a better way of letting people know when key deadlines are (especially newer players). It would be a small change, and would then make it inexcusable to miss a deadline, since you can't really fuck it up any time conversions if its in your own time.....
~ \(ˌ)im-ˈpər-vē-əs\ : not capable of being damaged or harmed.
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