EPTTL Mafia XVIII - Page 23
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Iaaan
Canada578 Posts
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
redtooth: I don't think that using "correctness" from previous games is good for anything. Posting behavior, like Ver used, is fine, but whether or not a person is correct doesn't really account for anything. If you find an inconsistency or a consistency in how L is posting here versus how he has in the past, then you could build a case against him. Not otherwise. In any case, I am all for a mayor that is uninvolved in this entire mess. We've already had doubts concerning Ace, and I for one trust Chenizu as far as I can throw him, so we should begin narrowing our mayor candidates. After all, don't forget that discussion concerning who we should elect as mayor AND pardoner are just as revealing about behavior. | ||
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Iaaan
Canada578 Posts
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rredtooth
5464 Posts
On February 14 2010 14:55 Mystlord wrote: it's just a case study, much like what L did in his post.redtooth: I don't think that using "correctness" from previous games is good for anything. Posting behavior, like Ver used, is fine, but whether or not a person is correct doesn't really account for anything. If you find an inconsistency or a consistency in how L is posting here versus how he has in the past, then you could build a case against him. Not otherwise. | ||
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[NyC]HoBbes
United States803 Posts
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
On February 14 2010 14:58 redtooth wrote: it's just a case study, much like what L did in his post. But you used it to justify Ace as a player. L used it in a general sense, and it was not a major component of his argument. If Ace is Mafia this game, then that argument makes no sense. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
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madnessman
United States1581 Posts
 . Thanks to Incognito for letting me participate despite the 50 person cap! There has been some debate about whether discussing clues this early on in the game is beneficial or detrimental to the health of the town, but I would just like to give my input. As others have mentioned, in the passage there is quite a lot of imagery regarding darkness and light. A lot of players' profiles allude to this in some form or another. So in this regard, getting carried away and everybody jumping on the bandwagon and pointing fingers at individuals whose profiles have a vague connection to these clues may not be the best idea. (That said though, I would not readily dismiss Ace as potential mafia as his quote is tightly linked to the dark/light imagery, but more importantly, his scathing post dismissed accusations against him only based on a "im smart and valuable, ur dumb" kind of thing..argumentum ad hominem?!) However, I do think that there are more subtle clues in the Day 1 passage that may be beneficial to discuss, because they aren't such broad overarching themes like light vs. darkness/shadows. Dreamflower was blinded from the moonlight that reflected off the horseman dreamflower’s last thoughts were confusion, for she thought that the torch flew through the window opposite the two horsemen. These clues stood out to me.. They both concern reflection/illusion/mirror-images. I thought that such clues may be worthwhile to look at this early on in the game because they are subtly woven into the text but refer to imagery that is quite specific. I was under the impression that maybe there would be very few users with mirror/reflection/illusion references in their profiles, so I looked through all 50. My findings: + Show Spoiler + d3_crescentia What is love? A simple reflection of the state of our condition; that which embraces the dialectical play between I-and-Thou - always immanent, but ever transcendent; always between but never entirely encompassed; always now, but also then and forever. Thus we find love in the here and now, as mirrors of our destinies, of our eternities. Phrujbaz The board is a mirror of the mind of the players as the moments pass. When a master studies the record of a game he can tell at what point greed overtook the pupil, when he became tired, when he fell into stupidity, and when the maid came by with tea. 789 I can see what you see not— Vision milky, then eyes rot. When you turn, they will be gone, Whispering their hidden song. Then you see what cannot be— Shadows move where light should be. Out of darkness, out of mind, Cast down into the Halls of the Blind. I'm going to have to admit though that my search was not as successful as I thought it'd be. Only three profiles had references to mirrors/reflections/illusions, which may be a good thing, but they're all kind of a stretch/only loosely connected (especially d3's and Phrujbaz's). I am only slightly more inclined to 789's because in addition his quote "Tell your assassin to aim for her head, because she has no heart." may relate to dreamflower quickly walked back to her closet and retrieved the most accurate gun she could find, and parked near her window, waiting. The phrase "most accurate gun" seems odd to me and I would think that it is a clue. Disclaimer: I am definitely not accusing these 3 people at this point in time. As a newbie to this game, I am not familiar to how tightly Incognito constructs his clues/how closely they're linked, etc. Would appreciate any veterans' input. | ||
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L
Canada4732 Posts
On February 14 2010 14:44 redtooth wrote: do you understand what i am trying to say? it doesn't matter that there is no demarcation of which persona belongs to which family. it does matter that you are implying ~5 clues (easy ones at that) are pointing at a single persona and that persona is Ace. and about the multiple veterans, it still means that one family would have one less veteran, a significant blow regardless of how many vets you have on your team. that would be a serious balance issue. as a side note, i'm sure some of you may suspect that i am associated with Ace in some manner. the answer is a simple no. i think that Ace is one of the best mafia players (imo second only to MBH) and he is a valuable town asset. actually, go ahead and check Mafia XV. Ace makes a call, L wants Ace to be killed, I defend Ace, town bandwagons against Ace, Ace dies due to L's assertiveness, Ace turns out correct on his call, L flips red godfather. L maybe I hit a nerve? The five clues are all descriptions of a single persona, the moonlight rider. All five clues link to Ace. It would be an issue if clues linked to other personas directly linked to other portions of the profile; those would be indicative of herrings and would not be usable in the case. For instance; If i said that the oil and fire linked to Ace somehow, that would be a problem with the analysis because of overbroad themes. Feel free to find out which other character fits the thematic profile I've linked to ace's signature. That's an open challenge, by the way. The clues are pointing to someone, so if i'm wrong, they'll point to someone else, right? Now, to toot my own horn; As far as veterans go, I'm the only one who uses clues extensively. I'm also one of the only players who has successfully hit targets with only 1 set of clues attached to them. Given that, and the fact that I don't think we can sit around. As for me getting Ace killed; yeah, we do that often. Sometimes he's mafia, sometimes I am. You can look at other games wherein Ver and Ace kill each other off, or the game in which Ver and Qatol high five each other after a few posts and team up. There's plenty of prior examples of nearly anything you want to show. So you wanted to talk about case studies? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=93286 A game where I called out Ace AND Ver, get them both killed (both innocent  ) and then win (as town, because I was innocent too). Even Ace was like "yeah, I'da killed me too". I personally don't think you're mafia even if Ace flips red; you're a bit too blatant in your defence. Malongo, for instance, would appear more red to me than you based purely on actions if Ace flips for a number of reasons. Let me just say this again; I can typically tell when a given clue is a red herring; Not always, but generally clues that are linked to a given persona are specifically there for a reason. Most of the issues with red herrings that we've had have stemmed from the fact that we've taken multiple clues from different personas and amalgamated them. In the current instance, the clue pattern is nearly identical to the one that happened when I killed truthbringer on the first set of clues pointing to him. So lets look at the actual game in which truthbringer got killed so that we can see how you do clue analysis: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=96429 Here's the Day 2 clue post: + Show Spoiler + Liquiville prided itself on it’s cheese, after all it was Liquiville’s primary export. The Cheese factory lay on the outskirts of the village and operated around the clock manufacturing cheese. Four members of the Mafia congregated outside of the factory and planned to butcher the occupants and ruin the towns economy. The Mafia entered the building and split up; two travelled alone while two travelled together. The first headed straight for the control room. His quickened walk looked almost arrogant as he kept his eyes peeled for any sign of resistance. The Mafioso burst through the control room door and Shikyo leapt from his chair in shock. Disappointed that there was only one occupant, the Mafioso sighed and punched Shikyo in the gut, causing him to fall face first onto the ground. Standing above Shikyo, the Mafioso opened fire on his head. By the end of the incident there was more metal inside of Shikyo’s head than organic material. Satisfied with a job well done, the Mafioso signalled to his colleagues that the Control Room was secure. The team of two got to work right away sabotaging the Cheese factory. As one sprinkled fox glove seeds all over the cheese, the tall lanky one kept vigilant in case security was alerted. Elemenope had been alerted to their activities moments ago upon hearing the prolonged roar which had come from the control tower, which then prompted him to look outside his window which overlooked the entire factory. As a security guard for the factory, he knew it was his responsibility to protect the exports at all cost. He launched himself out of the window towards the two saboteurs in hopes to catch them by surprise. However the lanky one was well aware of what was going on. A simple sidestep was enough to have Elemenope come crashing to the floor, immediately the other Mafioso tied him up and strapped a bomb to his chest. No one was able to help Elemenope before the timer ran out. There was one matter left to attend to – the destruction of the secret Liquiville Cheese recipe. The task was left to Mr Julia, a newcomer to the Mafia but nonetheless determined to carry out his orders. Mr Julia had a nack for working out combinations and he had cracked the safe within seconds. He wasted no time in burning the recipe with his lighter. “What are you doing!!” cried fishball, startling Mr Julia and causing him to accidentally burn himself on the recipe. fishball watched in horror and amazement as Mr Julia’s burn wound began to change colour and pulsate. “Look what you’ve done!” exclaimed Mr Julia who came lunging at fishball. fishball fended Mr Julia’s first few blows off, but each blow became more erratic and powerful. It wasn’t long until Mr Julia landed a punch square on fishball’s jaw, knocking him to the ground. Mr Julia pounced on fishball and eventually turned fishball into a bloody pulp. Even though fishball was dead, Mr Julia could not stop and eventually, after his body began to pulsate, he passed out. Four Mafia had entered, but only three had returned to the exit. All three of them instantly knew what had happened to Mr Julia and rushed over to the safe room to bring him back home. vivi57 was the last security guard on duty and was know well aware that the place had been hit by the Mafia. He was hiding around a corner, near the safe room, hoping the Mafia would leave him be. However, the instant the 3 Mafia passed the corner he was struck down by a large faintly warm object. He fell to the ground dazed and confused, but could make out 3 fuzzy shapes leaving with some kind of psychedelic object draped over one of their backs. The three Mafia noted that he was still alive and opened fire on vivi57 – the sheer intensity of the bullets severed vivi57’s body in two. Meanwhile in Liquiville’s most holy temple a Priest was channeling all his rage and hate into the corpse of the recently deceased MrBabyHands. Uncertain of what his fate would be, the Priest knew in his heart that whatever the outcome, MrBabyHands must walk again for the sake of the town. The resurrection had begun. Simply put, this one post, being the first post to even mention the character, was enough to get truthbringer killed. The method was to establish thematic links; The only one that was important? He shot a lot of bullets. Why was that enough to get him killed? Because after looking at every other profile in the fucking game, none of the others could be attached to it. When building a person, the success of your profile isn't based on how many links there are, but how exclusive they are. In the current instance, I see no one else that has the dark/light duality with blindness and hiding. I can understand people being squeamish about killing someone who's a good player on day 1, but frankly town doesn't have the time to sit around twiddling their thumbs while being too afraid to hit a mafia member. | ||
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L
Canada4732 Posts
On February 14 2010 15:12 madnessman wrote: This is an example of a very good post regarding clues. Argue the specifics, bring up theories and support them with information instead of speculation about the validity of theories in general. Yaay I am lucky #51 in this game . Thanks to Incognito for letting me participate despite the 50 person cap! There has been some debate about whether discussing clues this early on in the game is beneficial or detrimental to the health of the town, but I would just like to give my input. As others have mentioned, in the passage there is quite a lot of imagery regarding darkness and light. A lot of players' profiles allude to this in some form or another. So in this regard, getting carried away and everybody jumping on the bandwagon and pointing fingers at individuals whose profiles have a vague connection to these clues may not be the best idea. (That said though, I would not readily dismiss Ace as potential mafia as his quote is tightly linked to the dark/light imagery, but more importantly, his scathing post dismissed accusations against him only based on a "im smart and valuable, ur dumb" kind of thing..argumentum ad hominem?!) However, I do think that there are more subtle clues in the Day 1 passage that may be beneficial to discuss, because they aren't such broad overarching themes like light vs. darkness/shadows. These clues stood out to me.. They both concern reflection/illusion/mirror-images. I thought that such clues may be worthwhile to look at this early on in the game because they are subtly woven into the text but refer to imagery that is quite specific. I was under the impression that maybe there would be very few users with mirror/reflection/illusion references in their profiles, so I looked through all 50. My findings: + Show Spoiler + d3_crescentia What is love? A simple reflection of the state of our condition; that which embraces the dialectical play between I-and-Thou - always immanent, but ever transcendent; always between but never entirely encompassed; always now, but also then and forever. Thus we find love in the here and now, as mirrors of our destinies, of our eternities. Phrujbaz The board is a mirror of the mind of the players as the moments pass. When a master studies the record of a game he can tell at what point greed overtook the pupil, when he became tired, when he fell into stupidity, and when the maid came by with tea. 789 I can see what you see not— Vision milky, then eyes rot. When you turn, they will be gone, Whispering their hidden song. Then you see what cannot be— Shadows move where light should be. Out of darkness, out of mind, Cast down into the Halls of the Blind. I'm going to have to admit though that my search was not as successful as I thought it'd be. Only three profiles had references to mirrors/reflections/illusions, which may be a good thing, but they're all kind of a stretch/only loosely connected (especially d3's and Phrujbaz's). I am only slightly more inclined to 789's because in addition his quote "Tell your assassin to aim for her head, because she has no heart." may relate to The phrase "most accurate gun" seems odd to me and I would think that it is a clue. Disclaimer: I am definitely not accusing these 3 people at this point in time. As a newbie to this game, I am not familiar to how tightly Incognito constructs his clues/how closely they're linked, etc. Would appreciate any veterans' input. [/quote] | ||
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On February 14 2010 15:01 [NyC]HoBbes wrote: At this point, I'm all for citizen as mayor, last game he played extremely well, and he hasn't become involved in all of this Ace/Ver/L shaky clue analysis/finger pointing. Ver hasn't exactly been a major contributor to this latest galactic confrontation between Ace and L, iirc. I'd say redtooth and myself have been far more active in that regard- not that either of us is running for office. As to the elections, I'm undecided between I10f and L currently, though I'd seriously consider Ver if he presented a candidacy (which I believe he hasn't?). Ace doesn't seem to be accountable to anyone, and I've never played with citi.zen before. Chez... sorry man, promising to post exclusively coherent content is nice and all, but you should preach with the example rather than make promises. BloodyC0bbler's posts have inspired zero confidence in me so far... in fact, you had to look with a bloody magnifying glass to find any content in the post in which he announces his candidacy. | ||
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Chezinu
United States7466 Posts
On February 14 2010 15:24 Zato-1 wrote: Ver hasn't exactly been a major contributor to this latest galactic confrontation between Ace and L, iirc. I'd say redtooth and myself have been far more active in that regard- not that either of us is running for office. As to the elections, I'm undecided between I10f and L currently, though I'd seriously consider Ver if he presented a candidacy (which I believe he hasn't?). Ace doesn't seem to be accountable to anyone, and I've never played with citi.zen before. Chez... sorry man, promising to post exclusively coherent content is nice and all, but you should preach with the example rather than make promises. BloodyC0bbler's posts have inspired zero confidence in me so far... in fact, you had to look with a bloody magnifying glass to find any content in the post in which he announces his candidacy. I'm sorry that I can't give examples since it is my first time running for a position. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
When I flip green, you should just offer yourself to be voted off. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
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BloodyC0bbler
Canada7876 Posts
On February 14 2010 15:24 Zato-1 wrote: Ver hasn't exactly been a major contributor to this latest galactic confrontation between Ace and L, iirc. I'd say redtooth and myself have been far more active in that regard- not that either of us is running for office. As to the elections, I'm undecided between I10f and L currently, though I'd seriously consider Ver if he presented a candidacy (which I believe he hasn't?). Ace doesn't seem to be accountable to anyone, and I've never played with citi.zen before. Chez... sorry man, promising to post exclusively coherent content is nice and all, but you should preach with the example rather than make promises. BloodyC0bbler's posts have inspired zero confidence in me so far... in fact, you had to look with a bloody magnifying glass to find any content in the post in which he announces his candidacy. Confidence is from ones following actions, not from random bickering. I10f has posted next to nothing for his candidacy yet is getting supporters? This is what makes one sketchy. He has votes, he has no platform past "i will lynch a previous red from another game" and bam he inspires confidence while hiding in the woodworks. All those who have so far fallen into support of him, or have voted for him are insanely suspect. Yes, my platform is next to nil, but what do you want me to do? Create a nice pretty strategy to get myself into office? Last time I did that, I got killed from the very town I was trying to lead. You can go back and read any of the games I have run, and yes i have presented a plan. But with the current setup of the game, my ideas aren't fool proof, or close to it. When I have that, I shall post it, or when I see obvious clues, I will post them as well. So yes, if you look at confidence, i currently see people bandwagon supporting and others trying to kill off veteran players on red herrings. If thats confidence, I am afraid for this town. | ||
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Faronel
United States658 Posts
There were only 2 posts underneath me. I figured it didn't warrant another post. | ||
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L
Canada4732 Posts
On February 14 2010 15:26 Ace wrote: Come on L, you're really trying hard to force my death here. This is pretty bad play :/ When I flip green, you should just offer yourself to be voted off. I think the moonlight rider is the most complete set of linked clues from the first post. I'm open to alternative explanations of who its pointing to, but no one's decided to balls up and go for it. Including you. If you flip red and I'm crowned as the best clue guy ever, I'll be sure to abuse my status and authority to get you killed off on day 1 using blatantly unrelated clues instead of incredibly damning ones in a future game. Sound good? | ||
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BloodyC0bbler
Canada7876 Posts
Anyone bringing up previous games to justify ones actions in the current game should not be validated on that. If you are playing for town and analyze clues one way, being red does not mean you will analyze them the same way. In the case of L vs Ace. Yes as town, L nailed truthbringer. If L is mafia this game, he would be trying to remove ace because is he is A) a mafia member of another group B) townie that could threaten his position Yes, L could be a townie but he is still pushing to hard on day 1 to kill off one player based off clues. | ||
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Chezinu
United States7466 Posts
This is why you should vote for me: Because I am the ![[image loading]](http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/2565/myrole.jpg) Take that mafias! GG GS | ||
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Chezinu
United States7466 Posts
On February 14 2010 15:31 L wrote: I think the moonlight rider is the most complete set of linked clues from the first post. I'm open to alternative explanations of who its pointing to, but no one's decided to balls up and go for it. Including you. If you flip red and I'm crowned as the best clue guy ever, I'll be sure to abuse my status and authority to get you killed off on day 1 using blatantly unrelated clues instead of incredibly damning ones in a future game. Sound good? If he flips red, you have to admit that I found the clue first. Ace was one of the few profiles I memorized... I remember in Caller's game I caught him riding on horseback when he was on vacation.. ahh good old times... | ||
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