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Join the LiquidLegends 2017 Worlds Pick'em Group! Ban bets!! Ban bets will continue for the duration of Worlds. You can place bet at any phase of Worlds; on individual games, series, whatever your heart desires. Bans will be enacted the day after Worlds ends, to ensure everyone can still post on LL while Worlds is ongoing. glhf~ - Winners in bold - better, better's win condition, bettee [ban duration for loser] - Yorbon, EDG fails to make it out of groups, vs DarkCore [1 week] - Sleight, Fnatic doesn't make it out of groups, vs AlterKot [2:1 weeks] - Apex, Gigabyte getting out of groups as a 1st place seed + TSM will finish 1st in their groups + Samsung will fail to qualify from their group + C9 will get out of their groups, vs JimmiC [1 week] - geript, Korean teams will win a combined 17 or more games in Groups, vs Gahlo [1 month] - geript, NA teams will win a combined 7 or less games in Groups, vs Torchise [1 month] - zer0das, SKT doesn't win Worlds, vs no one [1 year] - Zato-1, NA teams combined wins will be greater than or equal to EU teams combined wins, vs Yorbon [1 month] | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
That's actually the exact line I've been trying to take with my posts. I think Parth was searching for a team comp his players could execute and his drafting shows a reasonable train of thought if you consider it in that light. Me personally would have gone full yolo comfort pick at some point so I respect his restraint even. | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
Assuming Biofrost plays all 3 (Lulu/Janna/Rakan) then it makes zero sense to grab a support there. You know based on bans that you're trading over 1 of the 2 that you didn't pick, AND whatever they deem as a worthy second pick in a best case option where their first rotation is Trade Support + X. Not only do they just trade supports (if you're of the assumption the 3 are relatively equal) not giving them an advantage, they then give themselves a disadvantage by letting FW take TWO picks. Pick up Lulu in second rotation, first pick Sej instead of giving it over if you have that hard a boner for Lulu. If the problem is Bio only plays 2 of the 3 then that's a whole separate larger problem that they should have been able to fix inbetween weeks. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
Lulu fp is probably a take away pick, if you are consistently losing lane you don't want to give them lulu on top of it, unless you want another nami pick(nobody wants that) | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On October 18 2017 05:06 Slusher wrote: I would argue playing around going 5k down vs group stage opponents vs. trying to find a more reasonable play style is less playing to lose than yolo picking Rakan because your team sucks at early map play. That's actually the exact line I've been trying to take with my posts. I think Parth was searching for a team comp his players could execute and his drafting shows a reasonable train of thought if you consider it in that light. Me personally would have gone full yolo comfort pick at some point so I respect his restraint even. Well by the time they get to worlds playing a way that nets them 5k down against group stage opponents is a bit too late to try find reasonable play styles. That ship has sailed. Had a whole year to work on something. Just got to buckle down with what you know best and try win from there imo. I guess that means discussing their issues in group stage is actually pointless. They failed before they even got to worlds judging by what they perceived as way to play. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
Week 2 kicked off with the thought experiment of did teams go far enough that you can hard punish? And in almost all attempts the answer was yes. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On October 18 2017 05:15 Slusher wrote: In the situation tsm got put in vs misfits Janna is probably the worst of the big 3 to deal with it and nothing short of Ali or Thresh shuts it down barring different jungle pick or better jungle pathing Lulu fp is probably a take away pick, if you are consistently losing lane you don't want to give them lulu on top of it, unless you want another nami pick(nobody wants that) TSM didn't even pick Lulu in that game... The lulu Firstpick was against Flashwolves. TSM's last draft was pretty good, at least first rotation. They got Kog + Sej for Taric (although peopel don't really like Double Kog, which is a good critique, Xayah and Trist are better champs for him). The problem in their last game was the final rotation when they went for Jayce and then flexed it top to bully the Cho. But they never bullied the Cho and by the time Bjergson got ult there was nowhere for him to use it. Thus, people would say on the 2nd rotation it would probably have been better to give Bjergson Jayce, or at least give him Taliah instead who is much better at roaming pre-6, because a jayce that isn't 20 CS ahead of Cho by lvl 6 is losing. | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
On October 18 2017 04:00 Slusher wrote: Because Rakan isn't a particularly strong laner, and while they probably don't come back without him, finding a way to not get dumpstered early is the higher percentage play for parth. They still got crushed bot sure but that's not lulu's fault That between towers play happens to all 3 of the top priority supports Let's take a look at what I referenced in perspective: TSM (blue) vs WE : TSM bans Ezreal, Galio, Janna WE bans Kalista, Jarvan, Lulu TSM (blue) vs Misfits TSM bans Oriana, Varus, Janna Misfits bans Kalista, Trist, Lulu TSM (blue) vs FW TSM bans Ezreal, Galio, Xayah FW bans Kalista, Gnar, Jarvan Pretend for a second that they ban Janna instead of Xayah. FW is forced to give up Lulu or ban her. Say FW still bans Jarvan, they can get Xayah and jungler of choice and are basically locked in on Rakan/Taric third pick for pressure/mid-game, but TSM has laning advantage with Lulu, their choice of ADC and their seemingly preferred jungler (since FW prefers Sejuani and TSM prefers gragas). That's a much better situation than just trading shielding supports against the weak Betty/SwordArt lane as you should be able to bend them over and beat them like a red-headed step child. Now pretend FW bans Lulu and TSM grabs Rakan; who is going to heavily punish that lane? Weakened Karma? Taric? FW has only played Lulu, Taric and Rakan at that point. How are you expecting FW to punish? There literally zero reason to ban the xayah because you can either get a much later advantage so you don't lose lane (lulu with your choice of ADC) or you get a much stronger mid-game support who Bio is good on against a likely Taric whose ult you can just wait out or equalize/negate with Gragas' Cask. If we were talking about this situation vs WE who were playing well and actually have a not terrible bot lane, then I get your argument. But this is fucking FW; Betty/SwordArt are the equivalent of Steelback. If Betty/SwordArt are kicking your ass in lane, you have some pretty big fucking issues in bot lane. | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
On October 18 2017 05:15 Slusher wrote: In the situation tsm got put in vs misfits Janna is probably the worst of the big 3 to deal with it and nothing short of Ali or Thresh shuts it down barring different jungle pick or better jungle pathing Lulu fp is probably a take away pick, if you are consistently losing lane you don't want to give them lulu on top of it, unless you want another nami pick(nobody wants that) If you're consistently losing lane so you're always grabbing Lulu, that's an issue on so many levels. Double used to be an oppressive laner... what happened. Was that all Aphro? Second, why not try a Forgiven style where you grab the most oppressive laner (like Caitlyn) and just work to hard shove tower. Sure, Caitlyn's attack speed nerf was huge; but her 2 item + Censor isn't terrible. If they're struggling so hard and losing lane so much, why is Sven spending so much time jerking off in jungle? Why aren't you having 4-5 man gang bangs in bot lane? Why aren't you having Bjergsen on shoving champs who will be first to roam to 3v2 or 4v3 bot? Why aren't you drinking the koolaid and trying out various lane swap scenarios with a top laner with solid ranged wave clear (like Galio/Cho) and play experience chicken? Like there are a million options available to be proactive in the current meta so that your bot lane doesn't just take it in the ass. They all require doing actual something other than just trying to extend laning phase for as long as possible and lose as little as possible. Sure, Froggen will get a hardon watching it; but no one else will and it won't actually help you win. | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
On October 18 2017 07:41 geript wrote: If you're consistently losing lane so you're always grabbing Lulu, that's an issue on so many levels. Double used to be an oppressive laner... what happened. Was that all Aphro? Second, why not try a Forgiven style where you grab the most oppressive laner (like Caitlyn) and just work to hard shove tower. Sure, Caitlyn's attack speed nerf was huge; but her 2 item + Censor isn't terrible. If they're struggling so hard and losing lane so much, why is Sven spending so much time jerking off in jungle? Why aren't you having 4-5 man gang bangs in bot lane? Why aren't you having Bjergsen on shoving champs who will be first to roam to 3v2 or 4v3 bot? Why aren't you drinking the koolaid and trying out various lane swap scenarios with a top laner with solid ranged wave clear (like Galio/Cho) and play experience chicken? Like there are a million options available to be proactive in the current meta so that your bot lane doesn't just take it in the ass. They all require doing actual something other than just trying to extend laning phase for as long as possible and lose as little as possible. Sure, Froggen will get a hardon watching it; but no one else will and it won't actually help you win. He was playing against the likes of Mystic and Ben, who are incredible laners in their own right. And Hans/Ignar is also not a bad lane, not sure about FW's bot lane though. Bio is a good support, but I don't think him and DL have the strength to play an oppressive lane properly against players of that calibre. Also with the current meta, Twitch/Kog outscale incredibly hard and incredibly quickly if they are allowed to farm, we're talking about 15 minutes here. We saw WE run that Cait/Janna push strategy twice I believe. It worked incredibly well, including against TSM. But in the current Ardent meta it is quite risky, although FW picked Xayah so outscaling wouldn't have been that big of an issue. It's a strategy that requires good coordination, Condi was everywhere applying pressure and helping to get those towers to snowball their lead. It also requires your players to be good enough to eek out that advantage, Cait needs to be 20-30 cs and a tower or two up by the 15 minute mark to make it work, otherwise Twitch just blows on her. | ||
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dsyxelic
United States1417 Posts
on shen and c9: 'Impact's Shen is a must ban.' 'I know the secret of Shen. What is the secret? If you are good at Shen and your team knows how to play with Shen he is fucking OP especially in this meta.' 'I fully expect Shen to be banned all the time vs C9.' 'The problem though is that the rest of C9 is too weak.' 'Jensen when he's good he's good but when he does bad he's just invisible.' 'Bottom ah.. its just average when good but when bad it really shows.' 'Besides top everything is just too shaky.' if anyone else has interest in what he has to say about a specific matchup/team I'll try to add a few tidbits | ||
NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
On October 19 2017 07:59 NeoIllusions wrote: I originally wanted to pick C9 for the upset, cause WE seems to be the only plausible seed to get upset in quarters but even then it looks too unlikely so I still went with WE. You don't think Samsung/LZ is a plausible upset? | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
On October 19 2017 08:01 Ansibled wrote: You don't think Samsung/LZ is a plausible upset? Ruler. Edit: okok, to not have this seems like an entirely shitpost, Ruler looked beyond bad during groups. Does anyone need a reminder of him walking into a Galio taunt at Baron? Compound this with the fact that it's probably still a Censer meta, PraY is going to have a grand ol time imo. I'm legit excited to see FOI Kyuubey vs Khan. Tbh I think the latter has gotten too much praise already and I'm waiting for him to come back down to earth. CuVee and CoreJJ give SSG hope but Ruler is bananas and while Ambition obv helps a ton with shotcalling, it looks like he plays with his feet in the early game. Poor Crown is kinda doing his best Bjerg imitation so far. Frankly, I was looking for upsets in the perspective of weakest 1st seeds and I don't think anyone is going to argue that's WE out of the four. I don't hold anything against SSG. I really like their solo lane players. | ||
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dsyxelic
United States1417 Posts
He did get a slight buff with Caitlyn priority rising though | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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dsyxelic
United States1417 Posts
On October 19 2017 08:22 Slusher wrote: The problem is Pray has like the same signature champions so he's just a poor mans Prey until pro play sees a Draven meta xD I mean, still relevant though. Guy with a weaker champ pool getting an extra champion is more useful than a guy with a deeper champ pool getting another champion. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
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