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Join the LiquidLegends 2017 Worlds Pick'em Group!
Ban bets!!Ban bets will continue for the duration of Worlds. You can place bet at any phase of Worlds; on individual games, series, whatever your heart desires. Bans will be enacted the day after Worlds ends, to ensure everyone can still post on LL while Worlds is ongoing. glhf~ - Winners in bold- better, better's win condition, bettee [ban duration for loser]- Yorbon, EDG fails to make it out of groups, vs DarkCore [1 week] - Sleight, Fnatic doesn't make it out of groups, vs AlterKot [2:1 weeks] - Apex, Gigabyte getting out of groups as a 1st place seed + TSM will finish 1st in their groups + Samsung will fail to qualify from their group + C9 will get out of their groups, vs JimmiC [1 week] - geript, Korean teams will win a combined 17 or more games in Groups, vs Gahlo [1 month] - geript, NA teams will win a combined 7 or less games in Groups, vs Torchise [1 month] - zer0das, SKT doesn't win Worlds, vs no one [1 year] - Zato-1, NA teams combined wins will be greater than or equal to EU teams combined wins, vs Yorbon [1 month] |
On October 17 2017 21:54 Numy wrote:
Arguing with LS is an exercise is futility anyway. He's never wrong.
Thorin is smarter than most give him credit. He hosts LS for the views. LS says a bunch of shit that isn't wholly correct but isn't all wrong either. Thorin maintains a good working relationship by allowing LS his really really narrow minded opinions. Now he can milk this cow at a later date. I am confident he doesn't agree with most of LS' bullshit but he is a professional personality and LS is free income.
And it is hilarious we still listen to LS. He talks a lot with nothing to say.
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I didn't even know Thorin still made lol videos since Montecristo left.
To be fair to LS, regardless of how wrong or right he is, in this past he has given me plenty of stuff to think about, and in that way helped me improve. Looking back, now I would only agree with his most vague statements. But I haven't heard him since worlds last year..
He's pretty annoying in discussions/coaching, though. All the incomprehensible analogies, and at times personal attacks don't do him much favours.
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On October 17 2017 22:39 Scip wrote:
I think it's healthy to have opinions as strong as your justification for them. But yeah, it's astounding how many people don't understand what discussions are about. It's not just LS, plenty of people have that problem.
Touche.
Look I think LS starts some interesting discussions. The issue isn't with the discussion being started or even the discussion itself, it's just the way things transpire after that. He's not the only one to do this. I do it plenty, have to catch myself.
That syndra infernal stuff was just ridiculous though..
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On October 17 2017 23:48 Yorbon wrote:
I didn't even know Thorin still made lol videos since Montecristo left.
To be fair to LS, regardless of how wrong or right he is, in this past he has given me plenty of stuff to think about, and in that way helped me improve. Looking back, now I would only agree with his most vague statements. But I haven't heard him since worlds last year..
He's pretty annoying in discussions/coaching, though. All the incomprehensible analogies, and at times personal attacks don't do him much favours.
He does, but there's a lot less of them. Until he basically rebooted SI as Narrative Wake with Moser, there was close to nothing for a while.
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On October 17 2017 22:39 Scip wrote:
I think it's healthy to have opinions as strong as your justification for them. But yeah, it's astounding how many people don't understand what discussions are about. It's not just LS, plenty of people have that problem.
Sometimes I go into discussions being wrong just to learn why I am wrong. I think it is most important to not have an ego about a said topic. No one will beat you up over being wrong, so long as you don't have an attitude about it.
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LS definitely has an ego about it. Haha.
I still can't believe his crusade about fire drake. Not sure how you disagree with the math so vehemently.
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On October 18 2017 01:25 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2017 00:35 lilwisper wrote:On October 17 2017 22:39 Scip wrote:
I think it's healthy to have opinions as strong as your justification for them. But yeah, it's astounding how many people don't understand what discussions are about. It's not just LS, plenty of people have that problem. Sometimes I go into discussions being wrong just to learn why I am wrong. I think it is most important to not have an ego about a said topic. No one will beat you up over being wrong, so long as you don't have an attitude about it. Ego is for sure his biggest issue, there is something pathological about his need to be right even when he is so clearly wrong. It's odd how many people are drawn to people like that because they think they are so confident. But the truth is almost always that they are super insecure and this is their defense.
It's a feeling of "Might Makes Right". Many folks believe that if some one is so intensely arguing a point, they must know what they are talking about otherwise why risk the embarrassment. What people fail to realize is that some people's egos are so inflated that they are impervious to embarrassment.
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On October 17 2017 17:16 geript wrote:
Why does thorin have such a hardon for LS? Like he barely pushes back against LS’s bullshit. Like it’s such complete and obvious dumbshit with generic mumbo jumbo.
TSM not losing in draft? Are you kidding me? Like thorin doesn’t seem like a dumbass. So why does he always want to jerk off LS?
LS, knowing his lol knowledge and tendencies, probably has the same Lulu hard on that TSM had.
Also Thorin in Lol generally "pushes back" with questions asking people to clarify or justify with examples because he doesn't have a curiosity for the game. He is the best interviewer in Esports, though, so I'd like him to have someone else with a LS character so he can serve as moderator instead.
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I didn't watch the episode and I don't plan on it but there's a difference between TSM made draft mistakes, but ultimately played so poorly they had little effect and TSM didn't make draft mistakes.
Because to be honest their drafting was while not really relevant in light of how they played, unless you count picking Jarvan and not ganking for a mid lane champion with point and click cc a draft mistake.
You could say well why did they draft a jungler that needs to be aggressive for Sven, that's a draft mistake, I'd counter with at that point they obviously needed to try something different. Personally I'd have drafted Sven lee, if we lost I'd be killed for it the same way but he was playing so bad he needed to be put in a position to succeed and Ryze/j4 does just that. Turns out it didn't work.
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On October 18 2017 02:51 Slusher wrote:
I didn't watch the episode and I don't plan on it but there's a difference between TSM made draft mistakes, but ultimately played so poorly they had little effect and TSM didn't make draft mistakes.
That's basically the jist of LS' arguement.
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Can't believe it is 2017 and we're still talking (in a World's thread no less) about Thorin "I think Piglet and Locodoco as a coach will end well for Teamliquid and danng look at Piglet's perfect spacing while he stands behind a wall autoing as Caitlyn" and LS. Pretty sure until I keel over dead, some dumb dumb is going to be giving LS some outlet to spread his FUD. Like good grief, the games need to start already.
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I only watched LS's first point, which was that Hauntzer didn't play as good people seem to think (or even bad). After reviewing Misfits vs TSM in the first week, I actually agree with him. It's hard to say some action is an individual misplay though, and not something called from the team.
But this may be confirmation bias, because I've never been really impressed by Hauntzer since he joined TSM.
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I definitely think LS brings up a few interesting points, like his points on Hauntzer, but his points on draft are just odd. How do you definite a mistake in draft? His point that if you give SKT/KT/Afreeca/LZ TSM's drafts they win is just pointless. Is it a mistake as TSM to draft for your team a composition you just aren't good enough at using? Is it a mistake to give the enemy "better" champions in favor of champions you as a team do better on?
I agree with his underlying point that draft didn't lose them the game (for the most part) but his justification is wonky. That being said the decision to not draft Rakan for Biofrost against FWs after he solo brought the team back against Misfits is baffling, and border line game losing right there.
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Right? Biofrosts Rakan is disgusting good, maybe the best so far this world's. Better first pick Lulu.
I don't think draft is solely why TSM lost, but they had far too many games where all the lanes had a losing matchup... Maybe you can make that work with a solid jungle but sven was decidedly ineffective at best.
And yes I get it is silly to bitch about picking losing lanes and not picking Rakan at the same time. Lol.
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On October 18 2017 03:03 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2017 02:51 Slusher wrote:
I didn't watch the episode and I don't plan on it but there's a difference between TSM made draft mistakes, but ultimately played so poorly they had little effect and TSM didn't make draft mistakes. That's basically the jist of LS' arguement.
That’s part of it, but he flat out thinks they “won” most of their drafts, which I don’t agree with whatsoever. They never drafted Janna always prioritizing lulu over it or squeezing an opponent for not second banning Rakan by third banning Janna blue side. Every time TSM won draft, it’s based on the opponent doing something really stupid. Hell, game 2 vs flash wolves they have that same scenario and don’t play to it even though Biofrost looks better on engage champs. It was obvious week 1 that TSM didn’t play Janna and that opponents could almost always have their choice or force TSM’s bans or flat out deny the top tier shielding supports. TSM’s redside p/b was fucking atrocious.
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Because Rakan isn't a particularly strong laner, and while they probably don't come back without him, finding a way to not get dumpstered early is the higher percentage play for parth.
They still got crushed bot sure but that's not lulu's fault
That between towers play happens to all 3 of the top priority supports
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On October 18 2017 04:00 Slusher wrote:
Because Rakan isn't a particularly strong laner, and while they probably don't come back without him, finding a way to not get dumpstered early is the higher percentage play for parth.
They still got crushed bot sure but that's not lulu's fault
That between towers play happens to all 3 of the top priority supports
I do wonder if that's the right mentality. It may be a "play not to lose" situation. You know your early game is weak so you pick stronger early game champs. That doesn't make you play any better early but gives inherent power. However it weakens the part of the game you are actually good at. So is the payoff worth it? Tough question to answer. Only TSM at the end of the day will know.
Personally feel that TSM is a much stronger team fighting front to back with either good peel or good initiation on their side. It played too all their strengths. Hemorrhaging early game is a problem but as long as they don't fall too far behind it shouldn't be that big a problem. There were enough teams coming back in the mid game that showed how important that one mid game fight was.
I also want to point out how dangerous it is to ignore smaller issues in light of bigger ones. While it's more important to fix the bigger issues , those smaller ones should still be noted. TSM ingame play may have lost them games far more than their drafting but the drafting still was an issue for them. Drafting is the foundation of a team, it's the springboard you build the play around. Any kind of ingame weaknesses get worsened by drafting issues.
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EPT
