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Ban bets!!Ban bets will continue for the duration of Worlds. You can place bet at any phase of Worlds; on individual games, series, whatever your heart desires. Bans will be enacted the day after Worlds ends, to ensure everyone can still post on LL while Worlds is ongoing. glhf~ - Winners in bold- better, better's win condition, bettee [ban duration for loser]- Yorbon, EDG fails to make it out of groups, vs DarkCore [1 week] - Sleight, Fnatic doesn't make it out of groups, vs AlterKot [2:1 weeks] - Apex, Gigabyte getting out of groups as a 1st place seed + TSM will finish 1st in their groups + Samsung will fail to qualify from their group + C9 will get out of their groups, vs JimmiC [1 week] - geript, Korean teams will win a combined 17 or more games in Groups, vs Gahlo [1 month] - geript, NA teams will win a combined 7 or less games in Groups, vs Torchise [1 month] - zer0das, SKT doesn't win Worlds, vs no one [1 year] - Zato-1, NA teams combined wins will be greater than or equal to EU teams combined wins, vs Yorbon [1 month] |
On October 10 2017 03:49 geript wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2017 02:40 Sleight wrote:On October 10 2017 00:21 Numy wrote:
Dardoch has shown the ability to play one select style on 2 champions, Rengar and Kha'Zix. Soaz used to be the master of pulling out anything he needed to create an edge over the other team. He also formed the unit with Xpeke of doing crazy map movements. Soaz definitely was phenomenal when he was at this Peak. The guy used to be a role model for Korean top laners. Calling him lucky is to be on fnatic is just some huge revisionism.
All I see in Dardoch is a kid who can play super aggressive carry style while sacrificing team and that's it. He started with that and hasn't changed in over a year. He sucked giant ass anytime he played anything different. Why does he keep getting hyped up? I honestly feel like you didn't even watch Dardoch play. I'd also like to see a source for Korean top laner role model. I can't remember who said it, maybe Monte or Thoorin, but it was said of him that Koreans were literally in awe of his ability to play almost anything as well as he does with such little practice. In the west, that would be slam but in this case it was actual value. Like, if he was more korean (ie work ethic, hard practice, coachability, etc.) he would be an actual god in LoL instead of just a impressive player. Like he was a threat and could pull out something he hadn't played in years and still dominate on it. It's legit fair to say that he's a prodigy. It's also fair to compare him to Dardoch, Doublelift, Jensen, Piglet or others in the sense that he's very hard to work with. The major difference is that of those I mentioned, Dardoch and Piglet really haven't show the same ability to hard carry almost despite the meta. Fanatic knew what they were getting when the picked him back up; the problem is that he doesn't have the same strength in teamates currently. Rekkles hasn't been a top tier ADC in years; Jesiz is laughable. Their jungle is meh at best. You can't keep a handle on a hard to deal with player like Soaz if you aren't willing to invest in a top tier 4/5 players; at least have absolutely dominating Top/Jng/Mid so that you can put a safe "token" ADC like Steelback and a passable support. That way you can play through Mid/Top in most metas; you'd still struggle in the current ADC/Support focused meta, but you'd still be able to win.
Alright back up. Any source saying Jensen is hard to work with? Name one? Meteos never said that. He said that they didn't work well together.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On October 10 2017 03:49 geript wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2017 02:40 Sleight wrote:On October 10 2017 00:21 Numy wrote:
Dardoch has shown the ability to play one select style on 2 champions, Rengar and Kha'Zix. Soaz used to be the master of pulling out anything he needed to create an edge over the other team. He also formed the unit with Xpeke of doing crazy map movements. Soaz definitely was phenomenal when he was at this Peak. The guy used to be a role model for Korean top laners. Calling him lucky is to be on fnatic is just some huge revisionism.
All I see in Dardoch is a kid who can play super aggressive carry style while sacrificing team and that's it. He started with that and hasn't changed in over a year. He sucked giant ass anytime he played anything different. Why does he keep getting hyped up? I honestly feel like you didn't even watch Dardoch play. I'd also like to see a source for Korean top laner role model. I can't remember who said it, maybe Monte or Thoorin, but it was said of him that Koreans were literally in awe of his ability to play almost anything as well as he does with such little practice. In the west, that would be slam but in this case it was actual value. Like, if he was more korean (ie work ethic, hard practice, coachability, etc.) he would be an actual god in LoL instead of just a impressive player. Like he was a threat and could pull out something he hadn't played in years and still dominate on it. It's legit fair to say that he's a prodigy. It's also fair to compare him to Dardoch, Doublelift, Jensen, Piglet or others in the sense that he's very hard to work with. The major difference is that of those I mentioned, Dardoch and Piglet really haven't show the same ability to hard carry almost despite the meta. Fanatic knew what they were getting when the picked him back up; the problem is that he doesn't have the same strength in teamates currently. Rekkles hasn't been a top tier ADC in years; Jesiz is laughable. Their jungle is meh at best. You can't keep a handle on a hard to deal with player like Soaz if you aren't willing to invest in a top tier 4/5 players; at least have absolutely dominating Top/Jng/Mid so that you can put a safe "token" ADC like Steelback and a passable support. That way you can play through Mid/Top in most metas; you'd still struggle in the current ADC/Support focused meta, but you'd still be able to win.
What I'm getting from your post is:
1) Soaz could be really good if he tried
But he doesn't, so who cares? Who are you gonna pick up? The guy who is Masters, or the guy in D5 who says "I'd be Challenger if I cared and tried"?
2) If Soaz had really good jungler/mid laner he could look better.
Yeah everyone improves with better teammates. But given the teammates he has, Soaz does not look like some all-star top laner being held back. He is actively bad and straight inting. I mean, KDA isn't everything blahblahblah, but you cannot look at this:
2-16-8
5-3-7
5-7-6
10-4-7
0-5-16
And say, "Yeah, it's definitely jungler/mid's problem, we need to invest more in top because of all his UNREALIZED POTENTIAL."
I mean, the guy has died 16 times. The rest of the team combined has only died 19 times. If you are going to demand increased investment you need to put up at least something to justify it. At the very least you cannot be by far the worst player on your team.
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I'm not saying Soaz is good right now. I've felt the guy should retire awhile back. Just saying that he is a legend in the scene and was one of the greats. Just because he's a shadow of himself doesn't invalidate what he was. Also that just changing top lane won't solve fnatics issues. They require rebuilding as an actual team instead of just a collection of moving parts.
Why do they keep refusing to play through mid lane even though it's so successful and more proactive than the pray for Rekkles strat? Stuff like this has nothing to do with soaz being a tiltlord inting his face off at worlds.
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They probably consider Caps unreliable, which is partially correct, but I think it's also partially because of the "social" structure of the team. They treat Rekkles like older brother / alpha male and won't even consider playing around anyone else. He's not a natural leader, but he's surrounded by followers who expect him to be one.
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I think the Dardoch example is really apt if you pretend Dardoch is as good as the common perception. Getting hung up on how good he actually is misses the point.
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Soaz is the Gamelin of his time.
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On October 10 2017 04:03 Sleight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2017 03:49 geript wrote:On October 10 2017 02:40 Sleight wrote:On October 10 2017 00:21 Numy wrote:
Dardoch has shown the ability to play one select style on 2 champions, Rengar and Kha'Zix. Soaz used to be the master of pulling out anything he needed to create an edge over the other team. He also formed the unit with Xpeke of doing crazy map movements. Soaz definitely was phenomenal when he was at this Peak. The guy used to be a role model for Korean top laners. Calling him lucky is to be on fnatic is just some huge revisionism.
All I see in Dardoch is a kid who can play super aggressive carry style while sacrificing team and that's it. He started with that and hasn't changed in over a year. He sucked giant ass anytime he played anything different. Why does he keep getting hyped up? I honestly feel like you didn't even watch Dardoch play. I'd also like to see a source for Korean top laner role model. I can't remember who said it, maybe Monte or Thoorin, but it was said of him that Koreans were literally in awe of his ability to play almost anything as well as he does with such little practice. In the west, that would be slam but in this case it was actual value. Like, if he was more korean (ie work ethic, hard practice, coachability, etc.) he would be an actual god in LoL instead of just a impressive player. Like he was a threat and could pull out something he hadn't played in years and still dominate on it. It's legit fair to say that he's a prodigy. It's also fair to compare him to Dardoch, Doublelift, Jensen, Piglet or others in the sense that he's very hard to work with. The major difference is that of those I mentioned, Dardoch and Piglet really haven't show the same ability to hard carry almost despite the meta. Fanatic knew what they were getting when the picked him back up; the problem is that he doesn't have the same strength in teamates currently. Rekkles hasn't been a top tier ADC in years; Jesiz is laughable. Their jungle is meh at best. You can't keep a handle on a hard to deal with player like Soaz if you aren't willing to invest in a top tier 4/5 players; at least have absolutely dominating Top/Jng/Mid so that you can put a safe "token" ADC like Steelback and a passable support. That way you can play through Mid/Top in most metas; you'd still struggle in the current ADC/Support focused meta, but you'd still be able to win. Alright back up. Any source saying Jensen is hard to work with? Name one? Meteos never said that. He said that they didn't work well together.
It's not from a source. It's more so picking up things from when he was he was added until now. He demands jungle pressure; he seems to require C9 to play through mid regardless of the meta. Sneaky is a good ADC, but he's consistently looked worse I think in part because Jensen. I personally really doubt that Jensen is a great teammate; the difference is that he's generally "worth it" or at least has been so far.
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On October 10 2017 05:08 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2017 03:49 geript wrote:On October 10 2017 02:40 Sleight wrote:On October 10 2017 00:21 Numy wrote:
Dardoch has shown the ability to play one select style on 2 champions, Rengar and Kha'Zix. Soaz used to be the master of pulling out anything he needed to create an edge over the other team. He also formed the unit with Xpeke of doing crazy map movements. Soaz definitely was phenomenal when he was at this Peak. The guy used to be a role model for Korean top laners. Calling him lucky is to be on fnatic is just some huge revisionism.
All I see in Dardoch is a kid who can play super aggressive carry style while sacrificing team and that's it. He started with that and hasn't changed in over a year. He sucked giant ass anytime he played anything different. Why does he keep getting hyped up? I honestly feel like you didn't even watch Dardoch play. I'd also like to see a source for Korean top laner role model. I can't remember who said it, maybe Monte or Thoorin, but it was said of him that Koreans were literally in awe of his ability to play almost anything as well as he does with such little practice. In the west, that would be slam but in this case it was actual value. Like, if he was more korean (ie work ethic, hard practice, coachability, etc.) he would be an actual god in LoL instead of just a impressive player. Like he was a threat and could pull out something he hadn't played in years and still dominate on it. It's legit fair to say that he's a prodigy. It's also fair to compare him to Dardoch, Doublelift, Jensen, Piglet or others in the sense that he's very hard to work with. The major difference is that of those I mentioned, Dardoch and Piglet really haven't show the same ability to hard carry almost despite the meta. Fanatic knew what they were getting when the picked him back up; the problem is that he doesn't have the same strength in teamates currently. Rekkles hasn't been a top tier ADC in years; Jesiz is laughable. Their jungle is meh at best. You can't keep a handle on a hard to deal with player like Soaz if you aren't willing to invest in a top tier 4/5 players; at least have absolutely dominating Top/Jng/Mid so that you can put a safe "token" ADC like Steelback and a passable support. That way you can play through Mid/Top in most metas; you'd still struggle in the current ADC/Support focused meta, but you'd still be able to win. What I'm getting from your post is: 1) Soaz could be really good if he tried But he doesn't, so who cares? Who are you gonna pick up? The guy who is Masters, or the guy in D5 who says "I'd be Challenger if I cared and tried"? 2) If Soaz had really good jungler/mid laner he could look better. Yeah everyone improves with better teammates. But given the teammates he has, Soaz does not look like some all-star top laner being held back. He is actively bad and straight inting. I mean, KDA isn't everything blahblahblah, but you cannot look at this: 2-16-8 5-3-7 5-7-6 10-4-7 0-5-16 And say, "Yeah, it's definitely jungler/mid's problem, we need to invest more in top because of all his UNREALIZED POTENTIAL." I mean, the guy has died 16 times. The rest of the team combined has only died 19 times. If you are going to demand increased investment you need to put up at least something to justify it. At the very least you cannot be by far the worst player on your team.
1. This isn't a straight forward question. In part, you have to realize who you can get to fill that role; and I'd bet that Soaz is a far better player than most of the options. He just comes with asterisks. If I were a coach/analyst, I would rather have a CLG team (where you win through the power of teamwork) than have a TSM team (where you win based on player skill and have to juggle lots of egos). But that's because I value consistency and teamwork. There's also the fact that Soaz does bring exposure and fans back (to some extent) and I'm not sure what value that has the org exactly, but it's definitely non-zero.
2. I don't disagree that Soaz looks bad currently, but who on the team looks good? Honestly? If I were creating a team, I don't think that anyone on fanatic would be on my list of wants.
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On October 10 2017 06:08 Slusher wrote:
I think the Dardoch example is really apt if you pretend Dardoch is as good as the common perception. Getting hung up on how good he actually is misses the point.
Thanks. I think so too. League is past the point of prima donnas. Kick whiny toplaner, train a moldable mind. The difference between Dardochs and contractz seems to be 95% attitude and 5% memes.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On October 10 2017 08:35 geript wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2017 05:08 GrandInquisitor wrote:On October 10 2017 03:49 geript wrote:On October 10 2017 02:40 Sleight wrote:On October 10 2017 00:21 Numy wrote:
Dardoch has shown the ability to play one select style on 2 champions, Rengar and Kha'Zix. Soaz used to be the master of pulling out anything he needed to create an edge over the other team. He also formed the unit with Xpeke of doing crazy map movements. Soaz definitely was phenomenal when he was at this Peak. The guy used to be a role model for Korean top laners. Calling him lucky is to be on fnatic is just some huge revisionism.
All I see in Dardoch is a kid who can play super aggressive carry style while sacrificing team and that's it. He started with that and hasn't changed in over a year. He sucked giant ass anytime he played anything different. Why does he keep getting hyped up? I honestly feel like you didn't even watch Dardoch play. I'd also like to see a source for Korean top laner role model. I can't remember who said it, maybe Monte or Thoorin, but it was said of him that Koreans were literally in awe of his ability to play almost anything as well as he does with such little practice. In the west, that would be slam but in this case it was actual value. Like, if he was more korean (ie work ethic, hard practice, coachability, etc.) he would be an actual god in LoL instead of just a impressive player. Like he was a threat and could pull out something he hadn't played in years and still dominate on it. It's legit fair to say that he's a prodigy. It's also fair to compare him to Dardoch, Doublelift, Jensen, Piglet or others in the sense that he's very hard to work with. The major difference is that of those I mentioned, Dardoch and Piglet really haven't show the same ability to hard carry almost despite the meta. Fanatic knew what they were getting when the picked him back up; the problem is that he doesn't have the same strength in teamates currently. Rekkles hasn't been a top tier ADC in years; Jesiz is laughable. Their jungle is meh at best. You can't keep a handle on a hard to deal with player like Soaz if you aren't willing to invest in a top tier 4/5 players; at least have absolutely dominating Top/Jng/Mid so that you can put a safe "token" ADC like Steelback and a passable support. That way you can play through Mid/Top in most metas; you'd still struggle in the current ADC/Support focused meta, but you'd still be able to win. What I'm getting from your post is: 1) Soaz could be really good if he tried But he doesn't, so who cares? Who are you gonna pick up? The guy who is Masters, or the guy in D5 who says "I'd be Challenger if I cared and tried"? 2) If Soaz had really good jungler/mid laner he could look better. Yeah everyone improves with better teammates. But given the teammates he has, Soaz does not look like some all-star top laner being held back. He is actively bad and straight inting. I mean, KDA isn't everything blahblahblah, but you cannot look at this: 2-16-8 5-3-7 5-7-6 10-4-7 0-5-16 And say, "Yeah, it's definitely jungler/mid's problem, we need to invest more in top because of all his UNREALIZED POTENTIAL." I mean, the guy has died 16 times. The rest of the team combined has only died 19 times. If you are going to demand increased investment you need to put up at least something to justify it. At the very least you cannot be by far the worst player on your team. 1. This isn't a straight forward question. In part, you have to realize who you can get to fill that role; and I'd bet that Soaz is a far better player than most of the options. He just comes with asterisks. If I were a coach/analyst, I would rather have a CLG team (where you win through the power of teamwork) than have a TSM team (where you win based on player skill and have to juggle lots of egos). But that's because I value consistency and teamwork. There's also the fact that Soaz does bring exposure and fans back (to some extent) and I'm not sure what value that has the org exactly, but it's definitely non-zero. 2. I don't disagree that Soaz looks bad currently, but who on the team looks good? Honestly? If I were creating a team, I don't think that anyone on fanatic would be on my list of wants.
1. You don't have the time in League to waste years with someone with a ceiling like Soaz. If your goal is to win EU LCS and/or do well at Worlds, you cannot make it there with Soaz, and the team should have realized this a year ago. There's only so much time you can get out of your other promising players.
2. Rekkles is fine. He is both very good and also overrated. Successful teams have been built on the backs of worse ADCs.
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On October 10 2017 08:59 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2017 08:35 geript wrote:On October 10 2017 05:08 GrandInquisitor wrote:On October 10 2017 03:49 geript wrote:On October 10 2017 02:40 Sleight wrote:On October 10 2017 00:21 Numy wrote:
Dardoch has shown the ability to play one select style on 2 champions, Rengar and Kha'Zix. Soaz used to be the master of pulling out anything he needed to create an edge over the other team. He also formed the unit with Xpeke of doing crazy map movements. Soaz definitely was phenomenal when he was at this Peak. The guy used to be a role model for Korean top laners. Calling him lucky is to be on fnatic is just some huge revisionism.
All I see in Dardoch is a kid who can play super aggressive carry style while sacrificing team and that's it. He started with that and hasn't changed in over a year. He sucked giant ass anytime he played anything different. Why does he keep getting hyped up? I honestly feel like you didn't even watch Dardoch play. I'd also like to see a source for Korean top laner role model. I can't remember who said it, maybe Monte or Thoorin, but it was said of him that Koreans were literally in awe of his ability to play almost anything as well as he does with such little practice. In the west, that would be slam but in this case it was actual value. Like, if he was more korean (ie work ethic, hard practice, coachability, etc.) he would be an actual god in LoL instead of just a impressive player. Like he was a threat and could pull out something he hadn't played in years and still dominate on it. It's legit fair to say that he's a prodigy. It's also fair to compare him to Dardoch, Doublelift, Jensen, Piglet or others in the sense that he's very hard to work with. The major difference is that of those I mentioned, Dardoch and Piglet really haven't show the same ability to hard carry almost despite the meta. Fanatic knew what they were getting when the picked him back up; the problem is that he doesn't have the same strength in teamates currently. Rekkles hasn't been a top tier ADC in years; Jesiz is laughable. Their jungle is meh at best. You can't keep a handle on a hard to deal with player like Soaz if you aren't willing to invest in a top tier 4/5 players; at least have absolutely dominating Top/Jng/Mid so that you can put a safe "token" ADC like Steelback and a passable support. That way you can play through Mid/Top in most metas; you'd still struggle in the current ADC/Support focused meta, but you'd still be able to win. What I'm getting from your post is: 1) Soaz could be really good if he tried But he doesn't, so who cares? Who are you gonna pick up? The guy who is Masters, or the guy in D5 who says "I'd be Challenger if I cared and tried"? 2) If Soaz had really good jungler/mid laner he could look better. Yeah everyone improves with better teammates. But given the teammates he has, Soaz does not look like some all-star top laner being held back. He is actively bad and straight inting. I mean, KDA isn't everything blahblahblah, but you cannot look at this: 2-16-8 5-3-7 5-7-6 10-4-7 0-5-16 And say, "Yeah, it's definitely jungler/mid's problem, we need to invest more in top because of all his UNREALIZED POTENTIAL." I mean, the guy has died 16 times. The rest of the team combined has only died 19 times. If you are going to demand increased investment you need to put up at least something to justify it. At the very least you cannot be by far the worst player on your team. 1. This isn't a straight forward question. In part, you have to realize who you can get to fill that role; and I'd bet that Soaz is a far better player than most of the options. He just comes with asterisks. If I were a coach/analyst, I would rather have a CLG team (where you win through the power of teamwork) than have a TSM team (where you win based on player skill and have to juggle lots of egos). But that's because I value consistency and teamwork. There's also the fact that Soaz does bring exposure and fans back (to some extent) and I'm not sure what value that has the org exactly, but it's definitely non-zero. 2. I don't disagree that Soaz looks bad currently, but who on the team looks good? Honestly? If I were creating a team, I don't think that anyone on fanatic would be on my list of wants. 1. You don't have the time in League to waste years with someone with a ceiling like Soaz. If your goal is to win EU LCS and/or do well at Worlds, you cannot make it there with Soaz, and the team should have realized this a year ago. There's only so much time you can get out of your other promising players. 2. Rekkles is fine. He is both very good and also overrated. Successful teams have been built on the backs of worse ADCs.
1. Clearly you do. Fanatic made it to worlds and was top 3 or 4 for most of the season. Overall, most of the teams are pretty bad. The best league in LoL is LCK and has maybe 6 or 7 (at most) "good teams" who could vie for playoffs/worlds. A "has been" with talent left and experience is worth more than you're giving it credit for. What the long term value of Soaz is... that's almost impossible to tell. In part because it's almost impossible to tell how much value there is even in a EU LCS team due to lack of franchising and profitability.
2. He's ok. But I'd still rather have Steelback who has a much, much lower ceiling. Rekkless is Huni with far less upside and a much higher int cost; he's better than WildTurtle I think but that's not really high praise (though WT is probably a better teammate). I think it would be actually better to have a full-on toxic player like Forgiven than it would be to have Rekkless; Forgiven in this meta would be a western Uzi. Rekless is good, but it's been years since I've seen him hard carry a game; for as often as they've put all the eggs in the Rekkless basket, that's a problem.
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On October 10 2017 08:28 geript wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2017 04:03 Sleight wrote:On October 10 2017 03:49 geript wrote:On October 10 2017 02:40 Sleight wrote:On October 10 2017 00:21 Numy wrote:
Dardoch has shown the ability to play one select style on 2 champions, Rengar and Kha'Zix. Soaz used to be the master of pulling out anything he needed to create an edge over the other team. He also formed the unit with Xpeke of doing crazy map movements. Soaz definitely was phenomenal when he was at this Peak. The guy used to be a role model for Korean top laners. Calling him lucky is to be on fnatic is just some huge revisionism.
All I see in Dardoch is a kid who can play super aggressive carry style while sacrificing team and that's it. He started with that and hasn't changed in over a year. He sucked giant ass anytime he played anything different. Why does he keep getting hyped up? I honestly feel like you didn't even watch Dardoch play. I'd also like to see a source for Korean top laner role model. I can't remember who said it, maybe Monte or Thoorin, but it was said of him that Koreans were literally in awe of his ability to play almost anything as well as he does with such little practice. In the west, that would be slam but in this case it was actual value. Like, if he was more korean (ie work ethic, hard practice, coachability, etc.) he would be an actual god in LoL instead of just a impressive player. Like he was a threat and could pull out something he hadn't played in years and still dominate on it. It's legit fair to say that he's a prodigy. It's also fair to compare him to Dardoch, Doublelift, Jensen, Piglet or others in the sense that he's very hard to work with. The major difference is that of those I mentioned, Dardoch and Piglet really haven't show the same ability to hard carry almost despite the meta. Fanatic knew what they were getting when the picked him back up; the problem is that he doesn't have the same strength in teamates currently. Rekkles hasn't been a top tier ADC in years; Jesiz is laughable. Their jungle is meh at best. You can't keep a handle on a hard to deal with player like Soaz if you aren't willing to invest in a top tier 4/5 players; at least have absolutely dominating Top/Jng/Mid so that you can put a safe "token" ADC like Steelback and a passable support. That way you can play through Mid/Top in most metas; you'd still struggle in the current ADC/Support focused meta, but you'd still be able to win. Alright back up. Any source saying Jensen is hard to work with? Name one? Meteos never said that. He said that they didn't work well together. It's not from a source. It's more so picking up things from when he was he was added until now. He demands jungle pressure; he seems to require C9 to play through mid regardless of the meta. Sneaky is a good ADC, but he's consistently looked worse I think in part because Jensen. I personally really doubt that Jensen is a great teammate; the difference is that he's generally "worth it" or at least has been so far.
So rampant speculation without evidence. Also, the way to play right now is through mid and then transfer that success elsewhere. C9 is playing like the 5th best team right now (behind Koreans and RNG)... Sooooo yeah.
Michael Jordan always wanting the ball doesn't make him a bad teammate when he turns it into wins.
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On October 10 2017 09:15 geript wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2017 08:59 GrandInquisitor wrote:On October 10 2017 08:35 geript wrote:On October 10 2017 05:08 GrandInquisitor wrote:On October 10 2017 03:49 geript wrote:On October 10 2017 02:40 Sleight wrote:On October 10 2017 00:21 Numy wrote:
Dardoch has shown the ability to play one select style on 2 champions, Rengar and Kha'Zix. Soaz used to be the master of pulling out anything he needed to create an edge over the other team. He also formed the unit with Xpeke of doing crazy map movements. Soaz definitely was phenomenal when he was at this Peak. The guy used to be a role model for Korean top laners. Calling him lucky is to be on fnatic is just some huge revisionism.
All I see in Dardoch is a kid who can play super aggressive carry style while sacrificing team and that's it. He started with that and hasn't changed in over a year. He sucked giant ass anytime he played anything different. Why does he keep getting hyped up? I honestly feel like you didn't even watch Dardoch play. I'd also like to see a source for Korean top laner role model. I can't remember who said it, maybe Monte or Thoorin, but it was said of him that Koreans were literally in awe of his ability to play almost anything as well as he does with such little practice. In the west, that would be slam but in this case it was actual value. Like, if he was more korean (ie work ethic, hard practice, coachability, etc.) he would be an actual god in LoL instead of just a impressive player. Like he was a threat and could pull out something he hadn't played in years and still dominate on it. It's legit fair to say that he's a prodigy. It's also fair to compare him to Dardoch, Doublelift, Jensen, Piglet or others in the sense that he's very hard to work with. The major difference is that of those I mentioned, Dardoch and Piglet really haven't show the same ability to hard carry almost despite the meta. Fanatic knew what they were getting when the picked him back up; the problem is that he doesn't have the same strength in teamates currently. Rekkles hasn't been a top tier ADC in years; Jesiz is laughable. Their jungle is meh at best. You can't keep a handle on a hard to deal with player like Soaz if you aren't willing to invest in a top tier 4/5 players; at least have absolutely dominating Top/Jng/Mid so that you can put a safe "token" ADC like Steelback and a passable support. That way you can play through Mid/Top in most metas; you'd still struggle in the current ADC/Support focused meta, but you'd still be able to win. What I'm getting from your post is: 1) Soaz could be really good if he tried But he doesn't, so who cares? Who are you gonna pick up? The guy who is Masters, or the guy in D5 who says "I'd be Challenger if I cared and tried"? 2) If Soaz had really good jungler/mid laner he could look better. Yeah everyone improves with better teammates. But given the teammates he has, Soaz does not look like some all-star top laner being held back. He is actively bad and straight inting. I mean, KDA isn't everything blahblahblah, but you cannot look at this: 2-16-8 5-3-7 5-7-6 10-4-7 0-5-16 And say, "Yeah, it's definitely jungler/mid's problem, we need to invest more in top because of all his UNREALIZED POTENTIAL." I mean, the guy has died 16 times. The rest of the team combined has only died 19 times. If you are going to demand increased investment you need to put up at least something to justify it. At the very least you cannot be by far the worst player on your team. 1. This isn't a straight forward question. In part, you have to realize who you can get to fill that role; and I'd bet that Soaz is a far better player than most of the options. He just comes with asterisks. If I were a coach/analyst, I would rather have a CLG team (where you win through the power of teamwork) than have a TSM team (where you win based on player skill and have to juggle lots of egos). But that's because I value consistency and teamwork. There's also the fact that Soaz does bring exposure and fans back (to some extent) and I'm not sure what value that has the org exactly, but it's definitely non-zero. 2. I don't disagree that Soaz looks bad currently, but who on the team looks good? Honestly? If I were creating a team, I don't think that anyone on fanatic would be on my list of wants. 1. You don't have the time in League to waste years with someone with a ceiling like Soaz. If your goal is to win EU LCS and/or do well at Worlds, you cannot make it there with Soaz, and the team should have realized this a year ago. There's only so much time you can get out of your other promising players. 2. Rekkles is fine. He is both very good and also overrated. Successful teams have been built on the backs of worse ADCs. 1. Clearly you do. Fanatic made it to worlds and was top 3 or 4 for most of the season. Overall, most of the teams are pretty bad. The best league in LoL is LCK and has maybe 6 or 7 (at most) "good teams" who could vie for playoffs/worlds. A "has been" with talent left and experience is worth more than you're giving it credit for. What the long term value of Soaz is... that's almost impossible to tell. In part because it's almost impossible to tell how much value there is even in a EU LCS team due to lack of franchising and profitability. 2. He's ok. But I'd still rather have Steelback who has a much, much lower ceiling. Rekkless is Huni with far less upside and a much higher int cost; he's better than WildTurtle I think but that's not really high praise (though WT is probably a better teammate). I think it would be actually better to have a full-on toxic player like Forgiven than it would be to have Rekkless; Forgiven in this meta would be a western Uzi. Rekless is good, but it's been years since I've seen him hard carry a game; for as often as they've put all the eggs in the Rekkless basket, that's a problem.
Soaz is just a textbook example of why teams keep vets. Ignoring his 'hidden potential', which I've been hearing for years and am honestly tired of seeing being thrown around, Soaz has always had his incredibly long experience to show. Some seasons he shows weakness, but he will always be relevant at the top of the LCS. Of course, once we get to worlds, he gets totally exposed these days, he's not world class anymore.
Rekkles needs to be in a team where he is in the backseat for once. He's a supportive ADC who likes to deal dmg in the back, not make big plays a la Uzi style. In the past 2/3 years. He has tried to change that about himself, he tries to do more plays, but only because his team is a bunch of passive playmakers. That results in games like last week where he solo lost the game with his flash. That is why they were so good with RO and Huni, although not the only reason (they were good players to begin with...).
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
That site is so well done. Really good visualization of a complex issue.
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On October 11 2017 21:49 GrandInquisitor wrote:
That site is so well done. Really good visualization of a complex issue.
Yeah forgot how nice this was. So if C9 beat AHQ and SKT beat EDG, C9 advance regardless of the other outcomes. Wicked.
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Group B can be decided by the end of the 2nd game.
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If imt clenched 2nd before they play Fnatic it would be hilarious if the played Teemo into Soaz to fuck with him, unfortunately if they are clenched by then they would technically still be able to get first so they would have to play seriously.
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United States37500 Posts
I'm hoping one of the teams, maybe the Koreans, will pull out some fun picks once their top 1/2 spot is guaranteed. There might be some whiners about how it's disrespectful but w/e, even seeing dog top for a game was pretty interesting.
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EPT
