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Join the LiquidLegends 2017 Worlds Pick'em Group!
Ban bets!!Ban bets will continue for the duration of Worlds. You can place bet at any phase of Worlds; on individual games, series, whatever your heart desires. Bans will be enacted the day after Worlds ends, to ensure everyone can still post on LL while Worlds is ongoing. glhf~ - Winners in bold- better, better's win condition, bettee [ban duration for loser]- Yorbon, EDG fails to make it out of groups, vs DarkCore [1 week] - Sleight, Fnatic doesn't make it out of groups, vs AlterKot [2:1 weeks] - Apex, Gigabyte getting out of groups as a 1st place seed + TSM will finish 1st in their groups + Samsung will fail to qualify from their group + C9 will get out of their groups, vs JimmiC [1 week] - geript, Korean teams will win a combined 17 or more games in Groups, vs Gahlo [1 month] - geript, NA teams will win a combined 7 or less games in Groups, vs Torchise [1 month] - zer0das, SKT doesn't win Worlds, vs no one [1 year] - Zato-1, NA teams combined wins will be greater than or equal to EU teams combined wins, vs Yorbon [1 month] |
On September 27 2017 11:27 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2017 00:17 Redox wrote:
Damn so Fnatic are the unlucky ones. That would suck if they do not make it into groups. I don't think getting HKA is especially unlucky. Out of the 2nd-place teams, YG, Lyon and HKA all look moderately threatening. One looks far weaker than the rest, though, so Fenerbahçe got their ticket into the main event on a silver platter. As for the 1st-place teams, C9 and WE definitely look like the teams you'd want to avoid. Lyon couldn't face WE because they were on the same group, but then drew the short stick and got C9. C9 > Lyon and Fenerbahçe > One look pretty one-sided. WE is favored over YG, but I can imagine an upset happening here. HKA vs. Fnatic looks pretty close, but I favor HKA.
I would not put that much stock in the recent few games. And I cant believe HKA would be fundamentally as bad as a wild card team. They should have the potential to show a better performance.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On September 27 2017 11:27 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2017 00:17 Redox wrote:
Damn so Fnatic are the unlucky ones. That would suck if they do not make it into groups. I don't think getting HKA is especially unlucky. Out of the 2nd-place teams, YG, Lyon and HKA all look moderately threatening. One looks far weaker than the rest, though, so Fenerbahçe got their ticket into the main event on a silver platter. As for the 1st-place teams, C9 and WE definitely look like the teams you'd want to avoid. Lyon couldn't face WE because they were on the same group, but then drew the short stick and got C9. C9 > Lyon and Fenerbahçe > One look pretty one-sided. WE is favored over YG, but I can imagine an upset happening here. HKA vs. Fnatic looks pretty close, but I favor HKA.
> C9-Lyon is onesided
> WE-YG can feature an upset.
Ok? xd
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On September 27 2017 22:33 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2017 11:27 Zato-1 wrote:On September 27 2017 00:17 Redox wrote:
Damn so Fnatic are the unlucky ones. That would suck if they do not make it into groups. I don't think getting HKA is especially unlucky. Out of the 2nd-place teams, YG, Lyon and HKA all look moderately threatening. One looks far weaker than the rest, though, so Fenerbahçe got their ticket into the main event on a silver platter. As for the 1st-place teams, C9 and WE definitely look like the teams you'd want to avoid. Lyon couldn't face WE because they were on the same group, but then drew the short stick and got C9. C9 > Lyon and Fenerbahçe > One look pretty one-sided. WE is favored over YG, but I can imagine an upset happening here. HKA vs. Fnatic looks pretty close, but I favor HKA. > C9-Lyon is onesided > WE-YG can feature an upset. Ok? xd
Definitely, C9 dumpstered everyone they played against (minus the one DW game where they fumbled the early game...then dumpstered them), even though Lyon is by far the best number 2 seed they don't stand a chance of beating C9 in a best of 5. Compare that to WE who was a mistake away from having to tiebreak for first and YG who was a mistake away from being first, they're definitely close enough it could happen without WE stepping up.
All of that said both series should be a 3-1 at worst for both of the number 1 seeds, but the more I think about these groups the more mad I get. Its like Riot put the strongest 1 seed vs the strongest 2 seed, the 2nd strongest vs the second strongest, and worked their way down to One vs FB
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I mean, I'm pissed at WE for their performance, but the series should still be an easy win for them. They might fumble one game but that's the max, they have coaching staff that will point out their mistakes, and bo5 heavily favours WE, they tend to get better every game.
If WE wakes up they will clap YG really hard, which I'm hoping for.
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On September 27 2017 22:59 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2017 22:33 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On September 27 2017 11:27 Zato-1 wrote:On September 27 2017 00:17 Redox wrote:
Damn so Fnatic are the unlucky ones. That would suck if they do not make it into groups. I don't think getting HKA is especially unlucky. Out of the 2nd-place teams, YG, Lyon and HKA all look moderately threatening. One looks far weaker than the rest, though, so Fenerbahçe got their ticket into the main event on a silver platter. As for the 1st-place teams, C9 and WE definitely look like the teams you'd want to avoid. Lyon couldn't face WE because they were on the same group, but then drew the short stick and got C9. C9 > Lyon and Fenerbahçe > One look pretty one-sided. WE is favored over YG, but I can imagine an upset happening here. HKA vs. Fnatic looks pretty close, but I favor HKA. > C9-Lyon is onesided > WE-YG can feature an upset. Ok? xd Definitely, C9 dumpstered everyone they played against (minus the one DW game where they fumbled the early game...then dumpstered them), even though Lyon is by far the best number 2 seed they don't stand a chance of beating C9 in a best of 5. Compare that to WE who was a mistake away from having to tiebreak for first and YG who was a mistake away from being first, they're definitely close enough it could happen without WE stepping up. All of that said both series should be a 3-1 at worst for both of the number 1 seeds, but the more I think about these groups the more mad I get. Its like Riot put the strongest 1 seed vs the strongest 2 seed, the 2nd strongest vs the second strongest, and worked their way down to One vs FB
To borrow the reddit meme: Sometimes it happens that way, hyung.
It's basically a Worlds tradition that somebody gets screwed by the group drawings along the way.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On September 27 2017 22:59 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2017 22:33 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On September 27 2017 11:27 Zato-1 wrote:On September 27 2017 00:17 Redox wrote:
Damn so Fnatic are the unlucky ones. That would suck if they do not make it into groups. I don't think getting HKA is especially unlucky. Out of the 2nd-place teams, YG, Lyon and HKA all look moderately threatening. One looks far weaker than the rest, though, so Fenerbahçe got their ticket into the main event on a silver platter. As for the 1st-place teams, C9 and WE definitely look like the teams you'd want to avoid. Lyon couldn't face WE because they were on the same group, but then drew the short stick and got C9. C9 > Lyon and Fenerbahçe > One look pretty one-sided. WE is favored over YG, but I can imagine an upset happening here. HKA vs. Fnatic looks pretty close, but I favor HKA. > C9-Lyon is onesided > WE-YG can feature an upset. Ok? xd Definitely, C9 dumpstered everyone they played against (minus the one DW game where they fumbled the early game...then dumpstered them), even though Lyon is by far the best number 2 seed they don't stand a chance of beating C9 in a best of 5. Compare that to WE who was a mistake away from having to tiebreak for first and YG who was a mistake away from being first, they're definitely close enough it could happen without WE stepping up. All of that said both series should be a 3-1 at worst for both of the number 1 seeds, but the more I think about these groups the more mad I get. Its like Riot put the strongest 1 seed vs the strongest 2 seed, the 2nd strongest vs the second strongest, and worked their way down to One vs FB
C9 played against arguably two weakest teams at the event bar Rampage, lol.
Their botlane is still garbage, Contractz is yet to play a good game against a good team since Spring and seiya's current form is good enough to not die to Nicolaj three times. Combined with Whitelotus being the best adc who's not Mystic at the play-in, can't wait to laugh at C9 fanboys who think that it's a walk in the park. And I hadn't even started talking about C9's atrocious bo5s against Dignitas and CLG, what, you'd imagine, should've been a concern for C9 fans going forward.
World Elite would've shitstomped any other team at this event in bo5, I don't think it can be debatable even by the biggest Chinese haters here. But I guess, you just called WE to be weaker than C9, so lol.
Sure, C9 will be a favourite, but calling a series onesided, when your botlane dies 2v2 to Dire Wolves and now is going against the second best botlane at the event, gl in esports winning for free without WE's understanding of a macrogame.
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Yeah. Don't know if I'd go as far as the above post, but I do agree C9s bottom lane looked pretty weak. It matched up poorly against who they have played so far, hardly top tier competitors. It also just looked weak compared to what I'm used to seeing while watching LCK and top LPL games. C9 will get out of play ins, but it's hard to see them really going anywhere with such a big weakness in a crucial lane.
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United States37500 Posts
I guess without any form of hyperbole, I'm expecting C9 and WE to win their Bo5s.
fwiw, I found C9 looking rather clean during groups. Even in games where the enemy team pitched a tent in bot lane and Sneaky went 0-2 early, C9 never fell behind and Sneaky remained relevant.
WE on the other hand, still fulfilling those sandbagging memes. They def appear to be playing below weight class so far.
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It's just really hard to say (by design) if c9 is the best or t1 is the worst. Does the whole Lyon team play on na? I know oddie and seyia do but I don't recognize the other names.
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On September 28 2017 03:10 NeoIllusions wrote:
I guess without any form of hyperbole, I'm expecting C9 and WE to win their Bo5s.
fwiw, I found C9 looking rather clean during groups. Even in games where the enemy team pitched a tent in bot lane and Sneaky went 0-2 early, C9 never fell behind and Sneaky remained relevant.
WE on the other hand, still fulfilling those sandbagging memes. They def appear to be playing below weight class so far.
We've seen in NA that C9 tends to struggle if their solo laners can't just pop off. If Lyon can try contain Jensen and just make sure their top laner doesn't int I feel it might be a hard series. They don't appear to have made much progress in their overall team play. It's a hard thing to suddenly improve.
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C9 did look clean, but honestly their opponents kind of rolled over and died. That game where Jensen bodied mid and jungle as Ryze, helped by Contractz being there for the obvious counter ganks, was a perfect example of that. Then they played standard macro, and the enemy teams couldn't keep up at all, so the games ended in stomps.
That bot lane feed is another example too. Any team with decent macro would've blown that game far open, instead C9 was only 1k gold behind. Sneaky was only relevant because their opponents didn't press their advantage at all.
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The question with the bot lane feed game is how serious was c9 playing. Because if you pick an aggressive kalista bot and don't have your jungler ward/protect them you are actually trolling.
This is the same game contractz did level 2 raptors on ez so I'm just saying they might have been winging it
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On September 28 2017 05:08 Slusher wrote:
The question with the bot lane feed game is how serious was c9 playing. Because if you pick an aggressive kalista bot and don't have your jungler ward/protect them you are actually trolling.
This is the same game contractz did level 2 raptors on ez so I'm just saying they might have been winging it
That's contractz MO though. Dude doesn't give a shiiit about bot lane man. It's Jensen or bust.
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Then you have to ban kalista
(I think Reapered knows this he just thought they could pick anything and win)
Conversely it could be a mind game like the Galio pick "hey guy Galio is a flex pick for us haHA WINK" using the bad teams to try to get others to ban Kalista for them.
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On September 28 2017 00:17 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2017 22:59 chipmonklord17 wrote:On September 27 2017 22:33 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On September 27 2017 11:27 Zato-1 wrote:On September 27 2017 00:17 Redox wrote:
Damn so Fnatic are the unlucky ones. That would suck if they do not make it into groups. I don't think getting HKA is especially unlucky. Out of the 2nd-place teams, YG, Lyon and HKA all look moderately threatening. One looks far weaker than the rest, though, so Fenerbahçe got their ticket into the main event on a silver platter. As for the 1st-place teams, C9 and WE definitely look like the teams you'd want to avoid. Lyon couldn't face WE because they were on the same group, but then drew the short stick and got C9. C9 > Lyon and Fenerbahçe > One look pretty one-sided. WE is favored over YG, but I can imagine an upset happening here. HKA vs. Fnatic looks pretty close, but I favor HKA. > C9-Lyon is onesided > WE-YG can feature an upset. Ok? xd Definitely, C9 dumpstered everyone they played against (minus the one DW game where they fumbled the early game...then dumpstered them), even though Lyon is by far the best number 2 seed they don't stand a chance of beating C9 in a best of 5. Compare that to WE who was a mistake away from having to tiebreak for first and YG who was a mistake away from being first, they're definitely close enough it could happen without WE stepping up. All of that said both series should be a 3-1 at worst for both of the number 1 seeds, but the more I think about these groups the more mad I get. Its like Riot put the strongest 1 seed vs the strongest 2 seed, the 2nd strongest vs the second strongest, and worked their way down to One vs FB C9 played against arguably two weakest teams at the event bar Rampage, lol. Their botlane is still garbage, Contractz is yet to play a good game against a good team since Spring and seiya's current form is good enough to not die to Nicolaj three times. Combined with Whitelotus being the best adc who's not Mystic at the play-in, can't wait to laugh at C9 fanboys who think that it's a walk in the park. And I hadn't even started talking about C9's atrocious bo5s against Dignitas and CLG, what, you'd imagine, should've been a concern for C9 fans going forward. World Elite would've shitstomped any other team at this event in bo5, I don't think it can be debatable even by the biggest Chinese haters here. But I guess, you just called WE to be weaker than C9, so lol. Sure, C9 will be a favourite, but calling a series onesided, when your botlane dies 2v2 to Dire Wolves and now is going against the second best botlane at the event, gl in esports winning for free without WE's understanding of a macrogame.
I literally said despite the WE/YG having the higher chance for an upset I expect both series to be 3-1s at worst for the 1st place spot. WE looked shakier than C9, simple as that, but both SHOULD be leagues better than Lyon/YG. Cloud 9 was the best performing team during the play ins, therefor they're the strongest number 1 seed. WE came into worlds the stronger team I don't disagree, but their performance was way too shaky for me to call them the strongest 1st place team. They're very easily and comfortably the second best 1st place team, which is exactly what I said earlier.
The best 1st place team (C9) got the best 2nd place team (Lyon) and the second best first place team (WE) got the second best second place team (YG) and that's a shame.
EDIT: Completely unrelated, where the fuck are my worlds missions? I only have the 'win more missions' mission and its been a week
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The best first place team is World Elite.
The best second place team is HKA.
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Am I the only one to think that YG (with Nochty) is actually be the best minor region in play-ins? Lyon had multiple teamfight/skirmishing wins against WE but never managed to translate that into a big enough gold lead (or any lead at all, in case of game 1) and made a lot of bad rotations or baron misplays in the mid/late game.
Contrast that to YG who won a 32 minute game with 8 kills for their team by mainly out-macroing FNC. How many minor regions team can claim to pull a successful 1-3-1 against a major region team and get multiple 2-for-1 turret trades? Could they secure baron through good vision control, baiting it successfully then translate that into the annihilation of the enemy base without getting kills or kills themselves after that point? Would they even have seen the opportunity or be as decisive to backdoor the nexus like YG did? The macro play and the late game is usually the hardest part of the game that minor regions rarely get right and YG seems to deliver in that regard.
I think it's moreso WE playing uncharacteristically bad against Lyon and making it somewhat close than Lyon actually being the best 2nd seed team.
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On September 28 2017 10:32 Torchise wrote:
Am I the only one to think that YG (with Nochty) is actually be the best minor region in play-ins? Lyon had multiple teamfight/skirmishing wins against WE but never managed to translate that into a big enough gold lead (or any lead at all, in case of game 1) and made a lot of bad rotations or baron misplays in the mid/late game.
Contrast that to YG who won a 32 minute game with 8 kills for their team by mainly out-macroing FNC. How many minor regions team can claim to pull a successful 1-3-1 against a major region team and get multiple 2-for-1 turret trades? Could they secure baron through good vision control, baiting it successfully then translate that into the annihilation of the enemy base without getting kills or kills themselves after that point? Would they even have seen the opportunity or be as decisive to backdoor the nexus like YG did? The macro play and the late game is usually the hardest part of the game that minor regions rarely get right and YG seems to deliver in that regard.
I think it's moreso WE playing uncharacteristically bad against Lyon and making it somewhat close than Lyon actually being the best 2nd seed team.
It's Fnatic lol.
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On September 28 2017 00:17 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2017 22:59 chipmonklord17 wrote:On September 27 2017 22:33 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On September 27 2017 11:27 Zato-1 wrote:On September 27 2017 00:17 Redox wrote:
Damn so Fnatic are the unlucky ones. That would suck if they do not make it into groups. I don't think getting HKA is especially unlucky. Out of the 2nd-place teams, YG, Lyon and HKA all look moderately threatening. One looks far weaker than the rest, though, so Fenerbahçe got their ticket into the main event on a silver platter. As for the 1st-place teams, C9 and WE definitely look like the teams you'd want to avoid. Lyon couldn't face WE because they were on the same group, but then drew the short stick and got C9. C9 > Lyon and Fenerbahçe > One look pretty one-sided. WE is favored over YG, but I can imagine an upset happening here. HKA vs. Fnatic looks pretty close, but I favor HKA. > C9-Lyon is onesided > WE-YG can feature an upset. Ok? xd Definitely, C9 dumpstered everyone they played against (minus the one DW game where they fumbled the early game...then dumpstered them), even though Lyon is by far the best number 2 seed they don't stand a chance of beating C9 in a best of 5. Compare that to WE who was a mistake away from having to tiebreak for first and YG who was a mistake away from being first, they're definitely close enough it could happen without WE stepping up. All of that said both series should be a 3-1 at worst for both of the number 1 seeds, but the more I think about these groups the more mad I get. Its like Riot put the strongest 1 seed vs the strongest 2 seed, the 2nd strongest vs the second strongest, and worked their way down to One vs FB C9 played against arguably two weakest teams at the event bar Rampage, lol. Their botlane is still garbage, Contractz is yet to play a good game against a good team since Spring and seiya's current form is good enough to not die to Nicolaj three times. Combined with Whitelotus being the best adc who's not Mystic at the play-in, can't wait to laugh at C9 fanboys who think that it's a walk in the park. And I hadn't even started talking about C9's atrocious bo5s against Dignitas and CLG, what, you'd imagine, should've been a concern for C9 fans going forward. World Elite would've shitstomped any other team at this event in bo5, I don't think it can be debatable even by the biggest Chinese haters here. But I guess, you just called WE to be weaker than C9, so lol. Sure, C9 will be a favourite, but calling a series onesided, when your botlane dies 2v2 to Dire Wolves and now is going against the second best botlane at the event, gl in esports winning for free without WE's understanding of a macrogame.
Not with the way they were playing these past few days. C9 would've probably beaten them. WE is still one of the stronger teams in the play-in, but saying that they are far and away the best one is kind of impossible to reconcile with how much they were struggling.
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On September 28 2017 10:34 Ansibled wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2017 10:32 Torchise wrote:
Am I the only one to think that YG (with Nochty) is actually be the best minor region in play-ins? Lyon had multiple teamfight/skirmishing wins against WE but never managed to translate that into a big enough gold lead (or any lead at all, in case of game 1) and made a lot of bad rotations or baron misplays in the mid/late game.
Contrast that to YG who won a 32 minute game with 8 kills for their team by mainly out-macroing FNC. How many minor regions team can claim to pull a successful 1-3-1 against a major region team and get multiple 2-for-1 turret trades? Could they secure baron through good vision control, baiting it successfully then translate that into the annihilation of the enemy base without getting kills or kills themselves after that point? Would they even have seen the opportunity or be as decisive to backdoor the nexus like YG did? The macro play and the late game is usually the hardest part of the game that minor regions rarely get right and YG seems to deliver in that regard.
I think it's moreso WE playing uncharacteristically bad against Lyon and making it somewhat close than Lyon actually being the best 2nd seed team. It's Fnatic lol.
So you're saying that FNC will definitely lose against HKA, especially since you said HKA = best 2nd seed? I think FNC is bad for a major region team but it will be close with HKA.
HKA went neck-to-neck with FB in 3 45+ minutes games decided by a lot of baron steals. That wouldn't be too bad but that's with Frozen playing badly for most games, Crash looking unimpressive IMO and Padden fucking up so many Trist W buffers. And sure, HKA dumpstered RPG which made them look really good but RPG were the worst team in the tournament by a good margin. So I'm not convinced with the performance shown by HKA/FB.
My personal power rankings for the play-ins BO5:
WE > C9 > YG > FNC > LYN/FB/HKA >>> ONE
The one I have the most trouble placing in this ranking is LYN relative to FB/HKA. I definitely see some upset potential, especially HKA vs FNC. Maybe even in YG vs WE but only if WE continue playing like ass like they did in group stage.
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EPT
