On May 12 2015 01:02 Zdrastochye wrote: So outside of Worlds nobody has won anything impressive at all, including MSI. I think if you disregard every tournament except worlds then you'd miss out on some of the best performances in the entire game. I think competitive League is more encompassing than worlds even if Riot doesn't want it to be.
That's not what I said at all, what I said (or at least implied since I guess I didn't say it outright) is that World's is, and should be, weighed much more heavily than any other tournament.
On May 12 2015 00:50 Zdrastochye wrote: Like since Fnatic won season 1 worlds with Yellowstar, does this make Yellowstar a better player than ClearLove?
Yellowstar was in the final of the World's S1, but he was facing Fnatic (with soAz) in aAa.
Why do you guys rank CJ so highly? I consider CJ and GE frauds after their pathetic IEM performances. The Korean talent drain to China was just too much for the Korean scene to handle and the region is just way weaker than last year.
China is the best region now due to their Korean mercenaries. It's not just that China took some Koreans. It's that they took a lot of the best Koreans so you have players playing in ogn for top teams that normally wouldn't be good enough to play for them. It's like calling up minor leaguers in sports to replace all stars on teams.
My opinion about the subs issue is that organizers need to restrict the amount of subs to 1-2. It's ridiculous to be able to sub out your entire team and prepare completely different strategies via rotating subs that are trained to specialize. It's not even a team at that stage. eSports is not physical sports. Differences between individual players are magnified in these games, and we don't want to force teams to recruit 5+ benchwarmers just to be competitive.
The fact that subs for LCS teams are also salaried also acts as a siphon of talent away from the amateur scene, since it's more secure to just warm the bench for a stable LCS team than to take a chance on trying to get into the LCS (and even if you get in, trying to STAY in the LCS).
On May 12 2015 01:46 TheYango wrote: The fact that subs for LCS teams are also salaried also acts as a siphon of talent away from the amateur scene, since it's more secure to just warm the bench for a stable LCS team than to take a chance on trying to get into the LCS (and even if you get in, trying to STAY in the LCS).
How many players are actually content doing that? Benchwarmers don't have the same popularity and influence as star players so it's not even like they can supplement the (pretty low) LCS salary with a large stream income. Add in the pride and desire to prove yourself and I doubt many good players will be satisfied with the arrangement, and subpar players won't get the attention of LCS management anyways, so the impact on the challenger scene should be minimal.
The final round began. I was very nervous during pick-and-bans. The first 3 bans went as we predicted. Once the picks started… First pick Urgot! Great!! We instantly grabbed Sivir and Wolf’s Alistar. SKT were quick to lock in Nunu, we were now left waiting for the final piece of the puzzle. Faker hovered over LeBlanc - EDG's coach
On May 12 2015 01:40 Azarkon wrote: My opinion about the subs issue is that organizers need to restrict the amount of subs to 1-2. It's ridiculous to be able to sub out your entire team and prepare completely different strategies via rotating subs that are trained to specialize. It's not even a team at that stage. eSports is not physical sports. Differences between individual players are magnified in these games, and we don't want to force teams to recruit 5+ benchwarmers just to be competitive.
I agree completely. Teams should use subs only in case of illness or suspensions. Or teams can have as much subs as they wish, but not allow mid-series substititions
On May 12 2015 01:40 Azarkon wrote: My opinion about the subs issue is that organizers need to restrict the amount of subs to 1-2. It's ridiculous to be able to sub out your entire team and prepare completely different strategies via rotating subs that are trained to specialize. It's not even a team at that stage. eSports is not physical sports. Differences between individual players are magnified in these games, and we don't want to force teams to recruit 5+ benchwarmers just to be competitive.
I agree completely. Teams should use subs only in case of illness or suspensions. Or teams can have as much subs as they wish, but not allow mid-series substititions
I think it's idiotic to not allow substitutes outside of illness/emergencies. They should be part of the strategic plan of a team and opponents need to gameplan for it and be able to react to this.
I think limiting substitutes per series to 1 is perfectly acceptable, would be interesting for both teams and viewers, and increase the value of having a good sub on your bench rather then someone just collecting a paycheck.
So basically skt and edg are now 3-3 I feel that EDG has little room to grow though (all are amazing players) But SKT lost because of wolf gettig caught so many times, and if picaboo can get back in form soon i feel SKT will be the better team later in the season.
I've updated my hypotheses because it's now obvious to me that just measuring LPL vs. LCK is not enough due to the zero-sum effect between the two. A control is needed - ie LCS.
S4 regional parity: LCK > LPL > LCS
H1. Infrastructure is what matters, and Korean infrastructure is the best
Projected outcome: Korean internet and eSports infrastructure – ie its dense urban sprawl, single-server, high-speed internet, stable corporate sponsorships, professional management, highly educated work force, and tournament structures - is ahead of other regions. Therefore, their long-term success is guaranteed. The initial hit LCK takes due to the talent exodus affects their MSI results, but becomes less relevant as time goes on. The same is the case for LPL’s talent gain: initially it gives them a boost in individual skill, but becomes irrelevant as the imports converge to the regional average. • LCK > World • Smoking gun: previously decidedly second-tier LCK talent rise to first-tier and enter into topX lists
H2. Infrastructure is what matters, and Korean infrastructure is no longer the best
Projected outcome: Due to Riot’s restrictions on sister teams, Korean infrastructure has been gutted. Korean organizations no longer being able to run several sister teams is a huge loss. While Korea still retains other infrastructural advantages, those aren't enough to make up for the loss of sister teams. Also, other teams now have Korean coaching staff, and have greatly improved their eSports infrastructure via team houses, tournament format changes, etc. Korean infrastructure is therefore no longer ahead of every other region. • LCK = LCS • Smoking gun: LCS teams with minimal/no Koreans make excellent progress vs. LCK teams and equalize the skill disparity
H3. Raw talent is what matters, and Korea still has the best raw talent
Projected outcome: There is a static difference in raw talent between the regions due to, for example, disparities in how attractive eSports careers are for talented people in those regions. This static difference is what kept the Korean advantage in eSports insurmountable, and is going to continue doing so because the talent pool of Korea is very deep, so the loss of a few dozen players won’t change the fact that 5 Koreans > 2 Koreans. Not to mention, Korea hasn’t lost all of its tier 1 players, so making a team of tier 1 players is still very doable even without new talent. • LCK > LPL > LCS • Smoking gun: new, hitherto unknown Korean players rise to first-tier status and, joining up with the tier 1 veterans, they dumpster the 2/5 LPL teams and enter into topX lists
H4. Raw talent is what matters, and China now has the best raw talent
Projected outcome: Riot put a hard cap on LCK’s talent retention and Chinese billionaires stepped in to take advantage. The resulting transfer of talent from LCK to LPL is not easily fixed, especially because LPL is also poaching a large % of the best new talent from LCK eg Rookie, Baeme, TheShy, etc. The 5 Koreans > 2 Koreans argument isn’t valid because it doesn’t account for the qualitative difference between the Korean talent that was lost and the Korean talent that was retained. 4 tier 2 Koreans + 1 tier 1 Korean < 2 tier 1 Koreans + 3 tier 1 Chinese. The result is a permanent handicap for LCK going forward. • LPL > World • Smoking gun: Korean imports in LPL dumpster the second-tier Koreans in Korea, and continue to monopolize the top spots in topX lists
H5. Industry culture is what matters
Projected outcome: The culture of an industry is the beliefs and behaviors of its constituents. While there is an overlap with infrastructure, industry culture is easier to change by importing personnel. Examples of industry culture with respect to eSports are: scrimming practices, player attitude, player-coach interaction, coach professionalism, and team dynamics. Insofar as industry culture is what gave Korea a huge advantage over other regions, this culture is capable of being exported in the form of Korean players and coaches who transfer their culture to the teams they join. Of course, there is no guarantee that their culture is well-received in all cases, so we ought to see examples of both success and failure. On the whole, industry culture is indiscriminate in that it benefits all who take it up. • LPL = LCK > LCS • Smoking gun: Chinese players overtake Korean players, both imported and local, in performance and topX lists
I maintain my belief that MSI is not the best testing ground for these hypotheses, and that one has to wait till Worlds to make a decisive judgment.
Nonetheless, results from MSI support H4 and H5, and do not support H1, H2, and H3, because first, the Korean scene obviously did weaken, thereby showing that Korean infrastructural advantage didn't decide the results, failing H1. Second, while the Korean scene did weaken, it did not weaken to the level of LCS teams - TSM got dumpstered and Fnatic only took two games on the back of Korean imports, thereby failing H2. H3 theorizes that Korea still has the best players via its deep talent pool, but it's pretty obvious players eg Wolf, Bengi, and Marin aren't ahead of their peers in China and EU, and the fact that CJ and GET - the other top 3 teams in Korea - both got dumpstered by SKT and at IEM shows that wherever this deep talent pool is, Korea's top teams haven't been able to secure them.
For the time being, then, the situation favors H4 and H5. Between these two hypotheses, the immediate fall of Korea at IEM and MSI makes me lean towards H4, because improvements in Chinese and European industry culture ought to be gradual and not immediate. Further, it's not though Chinese players are now obviously > their Korean peers - and we see still that the old tier 1 Koreans eg Faker are still the best in their role, and are capable of being controlled only by other tier 1 Korean imports. To this end, H4 is the best hypothesis for the time being.
I really don't see all the faith in this SKT lineup. The only ones I've been impressed by are the world's most consistent mids, but Marin/Bang/Bengi are so off/on....
On May 12 2015 05:56 Caiada wrote: I really don't see all the faith in this SKT lineup. The only ones I've been impressed by are the world's most consistent mids, but Marin/Bang/Bengi are so off/on....
Kind of like if TSM were a top team.
Bang has a very high floor, and high ceiling. I don't think he is as consistently great as Imp, but he is a player that can be the #2 on a great team, especially with SKT's 2 mids. This is just my opinion, but IMO they are going to focus on developing T0m now, because its clear that with Bengi they have a limited ceiling in that role, and while he has a lower floor, also has a much higher ceiling (plus Rek Sai is obviously going to have to be gutted, and Nunu is not a good pick as your bread-and-butter), so they just need to take that risk and hope he improves on things other than Nunu-Sej-Udyr-Gragas.
Also Marin can be good, he just is too hyphy (or whatever Voyboy used to say), and Lustboy is consistent (wolf not), so the comparison is a bit hollow to me. They are more like old WE.
EPT
