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United States47024 Posts
On May 11 2015 12:55 IshinShishi wrote:
he was developing :D.
Anyways, great games guys, Faker(>PawN) couldn't carry the bot lane but I was satisfied with the result, now off I go.......
A "developing" player who got carried while he wasn't good yet is still a player who got carried, lol. Becoming good 2 years later doesn't retroactively make him not bad before.
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On May 11 2015 12:51 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2015 12:51 ShootAnonymous wrote:On May 11 2015 12:49 oneofthem wrote:
well if you are talking about when most of the current talent pool didn't even play league then i guess. but that's kind of like saying babe ruth is the best player ever in baseball. On May 11 2015 12:31 oneofthem wrote:
there's a really strong argument to be made that clearlove is the best chinese player ever. perfectly consistent.
If you're talking about "best...ever" recency is irrelevant.
(I didn't get the baseball reference; did I understand your post right?)
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Baa?21243 Posts
On May 11 2015 12:45 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2015 12:43 oneofthem wrote:
idk how much value to assign to those early domestic titles. the level of competition didn't seem too hot. clearlove's later career post WE is most of what i am looking at, not the number of titles IEM Guangzhou 2011 I'd actually put Tabe as #2, it's just that most of his early career was him playing super well but getting shafted due to various factors outside of his control.
In all seriousness saying Tabe is #2 is ridiculous because he was never dominant, never invented any strategies (his famous Annie and 2v1 mid strat was developed by WE), and was honestly a pretty weak player mechanically.
Getting "shafted" by factors out of his control is a direct result of him not being an elite individual players, so sayin git's out of his control is debatable.
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On May 11 2015 12:55 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2015 12:49 IshinShishi wrote:
I wonder how much more does clearlove have to win to convince that he never truly got carried? :D Once. He needs to win once, while 2/3 of his lanes are being shit on.
How the hell do you do that as a jungler? Lol.
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Baa?21243 Posts
On May 11 2015 13:00 KissBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2015 12:55 cLutZ wrote:On May 11 2015 12:49 IshinShishi wrote:
I wonder how much more does clearlove have to win to convince that he never truly got carried? :D Once. He needs to win once, while 2/3 of his lanes are being shit on. How the hell do you do that as a jungler? Lol.
IDK Spirit does it sometimes :3
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On May 11 2015 12:55 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2015 12:51 oneofthem wrote:On May 11 2015 12:51 ShootAnonymous wrote:On May 11 2015 12:49 oneofthem wrote:
well if you are talking about when most of the current talent pool didn't even play league then i guess. but that's kind of like saying babe ruth is the best player ever in baseball. On May 11 2015 12:31 oneofthem wrote:
there's a really strong argument to be made that clearlove is the best chinese player ever. perfectly consistent. Weixiao is the best Chinese player ever (to date I guess to hedge for future events), that's like an objective truth. If you didn't even watch the game until late S2 you probably shouldn't make silly pronouncements about the scene without doing your research.
well i admit to nto knowing how the games went down exactly but i don't recall him being talked about as a clear weakness for the WE team that was at one point best in the world. so my view does have an inconsistent switch of standards. early career, give him points for accomplishments, later on, by performance. overall it's a guy who's been good but has recently improved to a world class level, always playing on china's best team.
it is possible that he's really bad early on but idk how much to trust you guys on this since he can't always be this bad and still be on the team. he must have done something right. also, iirc we's performance took off after they acquired clearlove and a new support.
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United States47024 Posts
Tabe's biggest achievement is getting a team as individually incapable as Royal to Worlds finals by being able to draft and develop a style that maximizes the impact of the team's best players and make use of their very flawed players' redeeming qualities while minimizing how much impact the teams' constant flubs impact game outcome.
To date, there's simply never been a captain in LoL that has had that kind of ability to captain a team of imperfect players--all the other most dominant teams in recent history have been teams of players with relatively strong individual ability. Even in DotA, the historical number of captains who can pilot a team of misfits that far is quite limited.
When else has a team been able to do that well when less than half of its players could be considered top 5 on their role in the world (and some who wouldn't even be top 10)?
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On May 11 2015 13:00 KissBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2015 12:55 cLutZ wrote:On May 11 2015 12:49 IshinShishi wrote:
I wonder how much more does clearlove have to win to convince that he never truly got carried? :D Once. He needs to win once, while 2/3 of his lanes are being shit on. How the hell do you do that as a jungler? Lol.
Its an exaggeration. But 2/3 his lanes (min) were stomping in basically every game he won at this tournament, and LPL playoffs, and he was invisible in the ones they lost.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On May 11 2015 12:57 ShootAnonymous wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2015 12:51 oneofthem wrote:On May 11 2015 12:51 ShootAnonymous wrote:On May 11 2015 12:49 oneofthem wrote:
well if you are talking about when most of the current talent pool didn't even play league then i guess. but that's kind of like saying babe ruth is the best player ever in baseball. On May 11 2015 12:31 oneofthem wrote:
there's a really strong argument to be made that clearlove is the best chinese player ever. perfectly consistent. If you're talking about "best...ever" recency is irrelevant. (I didn't get the baseball reference; did I understand your post right?)
babe ruth compiled his stats when the league was very weak, so the early trophies should be discounted. at the very least normalized by the size of the talent pool.
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On May 11 2015 13:03 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2015 13:00 KissBlade wrote:On May 11 2015 12:55 cLutZ wrote:On May 11 2015 12:49 IshinShishi wrote:
I wonder how much more does clearlove have to win to convince that he never truly got carried? :D Once. He needs to win once, while 2/3 of his lanes are being shit on. How the hell do you do that as a jungler? Lol. Its an exaggeration. But 2/3 his lanes (min) were stomping in basically every game he won at this tournament, and LPL playoffs, and he was invisible in the ones they lost.
Did we really watch the same games? All three lanes were down in CS game 5.
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Baa?21243 Posts
On May 11 2015 13:02 oneofthem wrote:
it is possible that he's really bad early on but idk how much to trust you guys on this since he can't always be this bad and still be on the team. he must have done something right. also, iirc we's performance took off after they acquired clearlove and a new support.
Because jungle was a barren wasteland in China in terms of talent from 2011 - early 2014.
WE won IEM Guangzhou 2011 with if and YJTM, 0-2'ed vs CLG.EU in summer 2012, acquired Clearlove, lost a series after winning 5-2 in S2 quarterfinals, and won IPL5 in late 2012. During this period Misaya and Weixiao, with occasional Caomei not feeding, took turns hard carrying. Misaya's champ pool went to shit and Weixiao slumped for the first LPL split, but Misaya recovered a bit at the end of 2013, but by then ClearLove had already stopped trying and was engineering his EDG move and straight trolled every tournament. Aaron originally wanted to take Weixiao but took ClearLove as a "second choice." After ClearLove left Weixiao still played like a god for parts of 2014 but that was a true 1v9 situation. For comparison, Weixiao carried Sin, NInja, and Conan to a IEM win vs. EDG lol.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On May 11 2015 13:11 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2015 13:02 oneofthem wrote:
it is possible that he's really bad early on but idk how much to trust you guys on this since he can't always be this bad and still be on the team. he must have done something right. also, iirc we's performance took off after they acquired clearlove and a new support. Because jungle was a barren wasteland in China in terms of talent from 2011 - 2014. WE won IEM Guangzhou 2011 with if and YJTM, 0-2'ed vs CLG.EU in summer 2012, acquired Clearlove, lost a series after winning 5-2 in S2 quarterfinals, and won IPL5 in late 2012. During this period Misaya and Weixiao, with occasional Caomei not feeding, took turns hard carrying. Misaya's champ pool went to shit and Weixiao slumped for the first LPL split, but Misaya recovered a bit at the end of 2013, but by then ClearLove had already stopped trying and was engineering his EDG move and straight trolled every tournament. Aaron originally wanted to take Weixiao but took ClearLove as a "second choice." After ClearLove left Weixiao still played like a god for parts of 2014 but that was a true 1v9 situation. For comparison, Weixiao carried Sin, NInja, and Conan to a IEM win vs. EDG lol.
well weixiao is really good but why didn't he continue playing when he's still got competitive ability? i'd have to credit clearlove with continuing his progaming career rather than bowing out early. he's also pretty consistently one of the top soloqueue players, idk how much this should count but it does show that he's up there in terms of raw ability.
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On May 11 2015 13:14 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2015 13:11 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On May 11 2015 13:02 oneofthem wrote:
it is possible that he's really bad early on but idk how much to trust you guys on this since he can't always be this bad and still be on the team. he must have done something right. also, iirc we's performance took off after they acquired clearlove and a new support. Because jungle was a barren wasteland in China in terms of talent from 2011 - 2014. WE won IEM Guangzhou 2011 with if and YJTM, 0-2'ed vs CLG.EU in summer 2012, acquired Clearlove, lost a series after winning 5-2 in S2 quarterfinals, and won IPL5 in late 2012. During this period Misaya and Weixiao, with occasional Caomei not feeding, took turns hard carrying. Misaya's champ pool went to shit and Weixiao slumped for the first LPL split, but Misaya recovered a bit at the end of 2013, but by then ClearLove had already stopped trying and was engineering his EDG move and straight trolled every tournament. Aaron originally wanted to take Weixiao but took ClearLove as a "second choice." After ClearLove left Weixiao still played like a god for parts of 2014 but that was a true 1v9 situation. For comparison, Weixiao carried Sin, NInja, and Conan to a IEM win vs. EDG lol. well weixiao is really good but why didn't he continue playing when he's still got competitive ability? i'd have to credit clearlove with continuing his progaming career rather than bowing out early. he's also pretty consistently one of the top soloqueue players, idk how much this should count but it does show that he's up there in terms of raw ability.
When will people learn competitive is a totally different animal from solo-Q and is as RNG-based as it can get.
Hai was Challenger in Korea.
Pobelter was/is considered godlike in solo-Q.
Wildturtle has so many top 10 accounts in solo-Q.
Where are they now?
Retired.
Relegated.
Couldn't even make playoffs.
That said, I'm catching up to the VODs but I wonder how/if Kkoma will take responsibility for this loss.
Their entire plan for MSI was pretty suspect.
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So bringing it back to the topic that 90% of Reddit and Riot casters actually care about... What does TSM need to do to match up to the top CN, KR, EU, and TW teams?
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On May 11 2015 13:03 TheYango wrote:
Tabe's biggest achievement is getting a team as individually incapable as Royal to Worlds finals by being able to draft and develop a style that maximizes the impact of the team's best players and make use of their very flawed players' redeeming qualities while minimizing how much impact the teams' constant flubs impact game outcome.
To date, there's simply never been a captain in LoL that has had that kind of ability to captain a team of imperfect players--all the other most dominant teams in recent history have been teams of players with relatively strong individual ability. Even in DotA, the historical number of captains who can pilot a team of misfits that far is quite limited.
When else has a team been able to do that well when less than half of its players could be considered top 5 on their role in the world (and some who wouldn't even be top 10)?
the based Lucky
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On May 11 2015 13:33 Azarkon wrote:
So bringing it back to the topic that 90% of Reddit and the Riot casters actually care about... What does TSM need to do to match up to the top CN, KR, EU, and TW teams?
Honestly I feel like they need a better Jungle and better strats/gamesense.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
nah the difficulty between climbing to rank 50ish and rank 5ish on a high ratio is pretty huge. soloqueue is not perfect obviously and there are some guys who are better adept at winning in disorganized games, but i think clearlove has shed the reputation as being only a soloqueue star at this point.
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On May 11 2015 13:34 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2015 13:33 Azarkon wrote:
So bringing it back to the topic that 90% of Reddit and the Riot casters actually care about... What does TSM need to do to match up to the top CN, KR, EU, and TW teams? Honestly I feel like they need a better Jungle and better strats/gamesense.
that sounds like the china curse a while back :3
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SKT S + Bengi wasn't ready for EDG. Faker played well given the circumstances but Pawn did all he needed to do while SKT's other lanes imploded.
EDG was better tonight. Would love to see these two teams play again.
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TSM has so many problems to fix besides jungle. Sure, Santorin was non-existent, but turtle doesn't do much either and Dyrus just gets wrecked top lane. People can say they should help out Dyrus, but why should TSM allocate any gold to him? He doesn't do anything, and he can't carry against teams like Marin. Honestly, the 2v1 strategy is probably best for TSM until they get a decent top laner.
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EPT
