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On May 11 2014 02:41 VayneAuthority wrote:
that pick 10 game lol, korean jungler vs EU jungler holy shit
Cool is chinese just FYI.
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On May 11 2014 02:36 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 02:34 sharky246 wrote:On May 11 2014 02:30 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 11 2014 02:28 Itsmedudeman wrote:
NA will never be on the level of Korean teams until they bring up their own infrastructure to match. This has been said for years and years in BW and SC2. And no, a team cannot keep up with other teams by going over for just a few months. Not in SC, and certainly not in league where strategies change on a month to month basis. Ask SKT just how fast they went from completely undisupted Gods to 6th-8th place team in Korea in just one off season. What do NA teams have that Korean teams don't? Almost all of the NA teams have analysts/coaches. You could argue the quality of those coaches are questionable, but they're still there. What are they missing then? Also, as far as I know, SC2 infrastructure was really good to boot and Koreans had the same infrastructure essentially as most Western teams. Guess who ended up fucking everybody? They are missing work ethics and genuine passion for the game. They care too much about money to care about being the best and wrecking everyone you don't play in a vacuum and you won't progress as fast when the environment you're playing in (EU/NA LCS/yoloqueue) is shitty.
I dont follow sc2 alot but afaik polt showed results even while moving to US (and practicing on na server). So I dont think bad ladder or solo queue makes much difference. Just gotta work hard for it and none of that baylife crap
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A big issue for NA/EU is that new talent isn't cycled in. Competition breeds improvement. You need hungry players desperate to prove their worth and if Korea does one thing well, it's that there is always new talent forcing older complacent players out. And it's up to the older players to either sink or swim. The biggest examples are players like Snoopeh, yellowpete, scarra, voyboy who obviously should've stopped playing ages ago. But the big issue is that these players are big personalities and have brands, so I can see why it's hard and not wanting to risk the chance of bringing someone completely unknown.
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On May 11 2014 02:42 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 02:41 VayneAuthority wrote:
that pick 10 game lol, korean jungler vs EU jungler holy shit Cool is chinese just FYI.
And he's a midlaner. And he's a sub.
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On May 11 2014 02:45 sharky246 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 02:36 sAsImre wrote:On May 11 2014 02:34 sharky246 wrote:On May 11 2014 02:30 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 11 2014 02:28 Itsmedudeman wrote:
NA will never be on the level of Korean teams until they bring up their own infrastructure to match. This has been said for years and years in BW and SC2. And no, a team cannot keep up with other teams by going over for just a few months. Not in SC, and certainly not in league where strategies change on a month to month basis. Ask SKT just how fast they went from completely undisupted Gods to 6th-8th place team in Korea in just one off season. What do NA teams have that Korean teams don't? Almost all of the NA teams have analysts/coaches. You could argue the quality of those coaches are questionable, but they're still there. What are they missing then? Also, as far as I know, SC2 infrastructure was really good to boot and Koreans had the same infrastructure essentially as most Western teams. Guess who ended up fucking everybody? They are missing work ethics and genuine passion for the game. They care too much about money to care about being the best and wrecking everyone you don't play in a vacuum and you won't progress as fast when the environment you're playing in (EU/NA LCS/yoloqueue) is shitty. I dont follow sc2 alot but afaik polt showed results even while moving to US (and practicing on na server). So I dont think bad ladder or solo queue makes much difference. Just gotta work hard for it and none of that baylife crap
Polt's not playing in Korea and he has experience in playing in a region with actual competition and skill.
If SKT decided to come over to NA LCS they'd probably wreck while playing part time like Polt is, but that doesn't mean they'd be actual international threats anymore.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On May 11 2014 02:08 Maluk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 02:06 TzaTzers wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 11 2014 01:57 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 01:55 TzaTzers wrote:On May 11 2014 01:51 Itsmedudeman wrote:On May 11 2014 01:45 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 11 2014 01:44 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Teams staying in NA is better for the scene. Most important thing should be keeping interest and if the best teams like CLG and TSM went over to Korea to play at unwatchable hours only to get completely stomped there would be a big loss of interest. Yeah international tournaments are great, but you are dead fucking wrong if you think the scene would be better if LCS were gone and it were like the old days. It promotes amateur teams whereas a pure international scene would be like a majority of korean teams with only a few elite NA/EU teams and everyone else suffers. No shit it's better for the scene that's not the argument that's being made here. Also, fans of BW would know, but nobody relevant gave a fuck that BW was dominated by Koreans. That's because people could put aside their national pride (thank fucking god) and enjoy the mastery that were the Starcraft Broodwar progamers. Oh yes, because watching events at 4 am should be what people have to do to keep up with a scene. There's different ways to watch... you can always subscribe and get the vods or just watch the rebroadcasts. Which is nothing like watching a live event. When people miss sporting events they usually just look at the results later on. There's absolutely no suspense when you know that it's already happened. You're talking about keeping up with a scene, there's ways to keep up with it if the viewing times are not working for you, whether it be watching the rebroadcasts or simply just learning the results. If you want to feel the excitement of watching it live then watch it live, even if it's at times that are stupid. People here have been doing that for years already, yes it sucks but it's worth it if you really want to have that experience. If a team were to go to Korea I'm sure foreigners would find ways to watch their games (live or rebroadcasts), the same thing happened when foreigners went to Korea in BW or when TL went to Korea to partner with oGs, people found ways and made sacrifices to watch and support their teams and players. Yes, the hardcore fans did. Contrary to BW and SC2, League of Legends has an actual audience in the West and it's only normal that Riot wants to take care about it.
I don't get what is your problem.
There were always an audience for BW in glorious Starleague 180/240p streams, same is for every more or less big tournament in SC2. If there are more kids/teens who watch League, it doesn't mean that Blizzard, Ongamenet and MBC were doing shit job and Riot are only good guys on the scene.
You want to be like an actual sports? So, get 1-2 games streamed in time which you want and don't get others as spoiler-free vods and stuff, like Premier League does, like every soccer league in collaboration with TV channels does and so on. Better?
On May 11 2014 02:25 skykh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 01:51 Itsmedudeman wrote:On May 11 2014 01:45 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 11 2014 01:44 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Teams staying in NA is better for the scene. Most important thing should be keeping interest and if the best teams like CLG and TSM went over to Korea to play at unwatchable hours only to get completely stomped there would be a big loss of interest. Yeah international tournaments are great, but you are dead fucking wrong if you think the scene would be better if LCS were gone and it were like the old days. It promotes amateur teams whereas a pure international scene would be like a majority of korean teams with only a few elite NA/EU teams and everyone else suffers. No shit it's better for the scene that's not the argument that's being made here. Also, fans of BW would know, but nobody relevant gave a fuck that BW was dominated by Koreans. That's because people could put aside their national pride (thank fucking god) and enjoy the mastery that were the Starcraft Broodwar progamers. Oh yes, because watching events at 4 am should be what people have to do to keep up with a scene. Europe exist and it's a good time for us.
And + here.
Even i, who's basically work at night and so on, am tired sometimes of watching everything until 5-6 am (i live in Moscow, yep and it's sick when LCS stops at 6 am and Code A is on 7, let's say).
So, finally watching something big in good time is legit.
On May 11 2014 02:47 ParadeofMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 02:42 Itsmedudeman wrote:On May 11 2014 02:41 VayneAuthority wrote:
that pick 10 game lol, korean jungler vs EU jungler holy shit Cool is chinese just FYI. And he's a midlaner. And he's a sub.
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On May 11 2014 02:48 Seiuchi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 02:45 sharky246 wrote:On May 11 2014 02:36 sAsImre wrote:On May 11 2014 02:34 sharky246 wrote:On May 11 2014 02:30 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 11 2014 02:28 Itsmedudeman wrote:
NA will never be on the level of Korean teams until they bring up their own infrastructure to match. This has been said for years and years in BW and SC2. And no, a team cannot keep up with other teams by going over for just a few months. Not in SC, and certainly not in league where strategies change on a month to month basis. Ask SKT just how fast they went from completely undisupted Gods to 6th-8th place team in Korea in just one off season. What do NA teams have that Korean teams don't? Almost all of the NA teams have analysts/coaches. You could argue the quality of those coaches are questionable, but they're still there. What are they missing then? Also, as far as I know, SC2 infrastructure was really good to boot and Koreans had the same infrastructure essentially as most Western teams. Guess who ended up fucking everybody? They are missing work ethics and genuine passion for the game. They care too much about money to care about being the best and wrecking everyone you don't play in a vacuum and you won't progress as fast when the environment you're playing in (EU/NA LCS/yoloqueue) is shitty. I dont follow sc2 alot but afaik polt showed results even while moving to US (and practicing on na server). So I dont think bad ladder or solo queue makes much difference. Just gotta work hard for it and none of that baylife crap Polt's not playing in Korea and he has experience in playing in a region with actual competition and skill. If SKT decided to come over to NA LCS they'd probably wreck while playing part time like Polt is, but that doesn't mean they'd be actual international threats anymore.
Well, Polt won a lot last season, being part-timer and got double back-to-back semifinals on IEMs this year, can't call it's as non-threat.
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On May 11 2014 02:45 sharky246 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 02:36 sAsImre wrote:On May 11 2014 02:34 sharky246 wrote:On May 11 2014 02:30 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 11 2014 02:28 Itsmedudeman wrote:
NA will never be on the level of Korean teams until they bring up their own infrastructure to match. This has been said for years and years in BW and SC2. And no, a team cannot keep up with other teams by going over for just a few months. Not in SC, and certainly not in league where strategies change on a month to month basis. Ask SKT just how fast they went from completely undisupted Gods to 6th-8th place team in Korea in just one off season. What do NA teams have that Korean teams don't? Almost all of the NA teams have analysts/coaches. You could argue the quality of those coaches are questionable, but they're still there. What are they missing then? Also, as far as I know, SC2 infrastructure was really good to boot and Koreans had the same infrastructure essentially as most Western teams. Guess who ended up fucking everybody? They are missing work ethics and genuine passion for the game. They care too much about money to care about being the best and wrecking everyone you don't play in a vacuum and you won't progress as fast when the environment you're playing in (EU/NA LCS/yoloqueue) is shitty. I dont follow sc2 alot but afaik polt showed results even while moving to US (and practicing on na server). So I dont think bad ladder or solo queue makes much difference. Just gotta work hard for it and none of that baylife crap
he's still playing on the kr ladder a lot. + Korean from korea are just not invading foreigner tournaments anymore.
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On May 11 2014 02:47 ParadeofMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 02:42 Itsmedudeman wrote:On May 11 2014 02:41 VayneAuthority wrote:
that pick 10 game lol, korean jungler vs EU jungler holy shit Cool is chinese just FYI. And he's a midlaner. And he's a sub.
Yeah, I retract anything I ever said about Diamond still being good (although to be fair he will always be king of jungle innovation).
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United States47024 Posts
They are missing work ethics and genuine passion for the game. They care too much about money to care about being the best and wrecking everyone
Everyone cares about the money.
The difference is that the model in CN/KR is that the only route to the money is to be good, whereas in NA/EU it isn't.
So long as you are good enough to just scrape by and stay in LCS and aren't at risk of being cut from your team, being able to max out your stream viewers is a better source of auxiliary income than actually winning things.
Granted streaming/video-making/running a Taobao store also pays better than progaming in China, but there's a big enough stigma against doing that while being an active pro that very few people do so before they retire.
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On May 11 2014 03:07 BrownBear wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 02:47 ParadeofMadness wrote:On May 11 2014 02:42 Itsmedudeman wrote:On May 11 2014 02:41 VayneAuthority wrote:
that pick 10 game lol, korean jungler vs EU jungler holy shit Cool is chinese just FYI. And he's a midlaner. And he's a sub. Yeah, I retract anything I ever said about Diamond still being good (although to be fair he will always be king of jungle innovation).
i dont really follow the eastern scene at all so I guess that just makes it even more hilarious...you rarely get to make a comparison like that so it was funny to see.
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On May 11 2014 03:09 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +They are missing work ethics and genuine passion for the game. They care too much about money to care about being the best and wrecking everyone Everyone cares about the money. The difference is that the model in CN/KR is that the only route to the money is to be good, whereas in NA/EU it isn't. So long as you are good enough to just scrape by and stay in LCS and aren't at risk of being cut from your team, being able to max out your stream viewers is a better source of auxiliary income than actually winning things. Granted streaming/video-making/running a Taobao store also pays better than progaming in China, but there's a big enough stigma against doing that while being an active pro that very few people do so before they retire.
Tbh I find the whole Taobao store thing to be a bit ridiculous. Even chinese casters have their own taobao store. The stuff they sell is pretty much the same too, snacks or generic clothing and computer perpheirals. Never understood why people would buy snacks from progamers, like wtf?
Although if they make more selling random shit than salary and tourney winnings the pay in China for progaming by itself must be pretty shit.
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On May 11 2014 02:34 sharky246 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 02:30 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 11 2014 02:28 Itsmedudeman wrote:
NA will never be on the level of Korean teams until they bring up their own infrastructure to match. This has been said for years and years in BW and SC2. And no, a team cannot keep up with other teams by going over for just a few months. Not in SC, and certainly not in league where strategies change on a month to month basis. Ask SKT just how fast they went from completely undisupted Gods to 6th-8th place team in Korea in just one off season. What do NA teams have that Korean teams don't? Almost all of the NA teams have analysts/coaches. You could argue the quality of those coaches are questionable, but they're still there. What are they missing then? Also, as far as I know, SC2 infrastructure was really good to boot and Koreans had the same infrastructure essentially as most Western teams. Guess who ended up fucking everybody? They are missing work ethics and genuine passion for the game. They care too much about money to care about being the best and wrecking everyone
Basically this. Reginald was talking about this on stream but he said the biggest difference between EU/NA and the other regions is that EU/NA teams are lazier, they practice shorter hours and on LCS days- 2 days out of the week during the split- he said it's basically almost impossible to find scrim partners. Compare to say Korea where they're scrimming every day and only have to attend matches once every 2 weeks.
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Why do people keep lumping China in with Korea?
2 of the top 4 Chinese teams were at IEM Katowice less than 2 months ago and they lost to Fnatic/Gambit/C9. Past results would suggest China are far closer in skill to EU/NA than Korea.
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On May 11 2014 03:45 cuppatea wrote:
Why do people keep lumping China in with Korea?
2 of the top 4 Chinese teams were at IEM Katowice less than 2 months ago and they lost to Fnatic/Gambit/C9. Past results would suggest China are far closer in skill to EU/NA than Korea.
Meh. One tournament doesn't say much about the overall skill level that exists in CN. There's no doubt that CN pales in comparison to Korea but I'm confident the Chinese league is still ahead of NA/EU by a good margin. With that being said, WE/IG are still, from what I've seen, not that great and the only really good team in CN is the super team and OMG. But, again, that could just be my lack of experience in watching the league.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On May 11 2014 03:54 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 03:45 cuppatea wrote:
Why do people keep lumping China in with Korea?
2 of the top 4 Chinese teams were at IEM Katowice less than 2 months ago and they lost to Fnatic/Gambit/C9. Past results would suggest China are far closer in skill to EU/NA than Korea. Meh. One tournament doesn't say much about the overall skill level that exists in CN.
Especially considering that IEM Katowice occured when whole world was playing 4.3 for a month but China just switched to 4.1 in LPL and iG still destroyed Fnatic in first day, just to lose to Morgana who they never saw before in day two. Then WE proceeded to lose to Gambit in same fashion, losing to C9's Morgana day before.
Korea > China >>> NA/EU >> SEA.
On May 11 2014 03:59 KissBlade wrote:
Why does itsdudeman keep saying SKT1 is a 6-8 team in Korea when it's not true at all? SKT1 will always be a threat to any of the top teams. They looked a bit shakey but I hardly think it's doom and gloom for them. Faker/Piglet are just too good.
Well, techically, SKT T1 is 6th placed team in OGN Champions Spring after both Samsung squads, both CJ squads and Najin White Shield :D
But bengi and PoohManDu are looking way better than in OGN + NLB Spring, so SKT T1 K are way stronger right now.
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Why does itsdudeman keep saying SKT1 is a 6-8 team in Korea when it's not true at all? SKT1 will always be a threat to any of the top teams. They looked a bit shakey but I hardly think it's doom and gloom for them. Faker/Piglet are just too good.
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On May 11 2014 03:59 KissBlade wrote:
Why does itsdudeman keep saying SKT1 is a 6-8 team in Korea when it's not true at all? SKT1 will always be a threat to any of the top teams. They looked a bit shakey but I hardly think it's doom and gloom for them. Faker/Piglet are just too good.
well this season they will finish in 7th at best, so technically he is being factual
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On May 11 2014 04:10 Slusher wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 03:59 KissBlade wrote:
Why does itsdudeman keep saying SKT1 is a 6-8 team in Korea when it's not true at all? SKT1 will always be a threat to any of the top teams. They looked a bit shakey but I hardly think it's doom and gloom for them. Faker/Piglet are just too good. well this season they will finish in 7th at best, so technically he is being factual
Technically correct. The best kind of correct.
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Personally, seeing how the C9 vs OMG games aren't really a stomp, but Korea stomps everyone, it seems more like:
Korea >>> China > NA/EU >> Sea.
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well beyond technical you have to go into opinions, which for me puts them behind Ozone/Blue + Shield + Blaze KTA, the frost loss is the only one that really feels flukey , so 6th, up from 7 (or possibly 8) by technical standards
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EPT
