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On May 11 2014 04:33 Itsmedudeman wrote:
People say C9's macro strategy is good but I don't think it's that great. Game 1 vs OMG proved they can't play certain team comps and their playstyle is still very linear. They're really bad at making picks and they're bad at split pushing strategies. Even in their win vs. Fnatic I thought they got a bit lucky that Fnatic returned C9's mistakes with their own by greedily trying to delay their backs. Like yeah, they're better at rotating than Fnatic and I thought they were better than Fnatic even at Worlds but whenever they meet Fnatic just runs circles around them and since C9 depends heavily on just team fighting or pushing as 5 to win they look lost at times.
Hai is usually their shotcaller so missing him obviously hurts their macro strategy a lot.
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On May 11 2014 04:44 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 04:38 Itsmedudeman wrote:On May 11 2014 04:36 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On May 11 2014 04:33 Itsmedudeman wrote:
People say C9's macro strategy is good but I don't think it's that great. Game 1 vs OMG proved they can't play certain team comps and their playstyle is still very linear. They're really bad at making picks and they're bad at split pushing strategies. Even in their win vs. Fnatic I thought they got a bit lucky that Fnatic returned C9's mistakes with their own by greedily trying to delay their backs. C9 are predictable in champion picks, you pretty much can expect always what to wait. They're just head above CLG and 2 heads above everyone else in macroing in NA, that's why they dominate. If teams start to ban out Balls on new patch, i'm scared for C9 tbh, even if i'm not cheering for them. I don't think CLG will challenge C9 any time soon. If there's an even more predictable/linear team than C9 it's CLG. TSM has the best chance but they play so damn passively. Amazing is a playmaker so that might change but he's also from EU which is the king of passivity. Him being the main shotcaller is not good for TSM. They need to develop a more aggressive playstyle in the mid-late game. Well, CLG has deeper champion pools right now than C9 and if Seraph can join team's playstyle fast, i can see them at least not crashing like TSM. + better mechanical skill can let CLG survive those dragonfights in which C9 excel. TSM might be same to last split but with better mechanical jungler and worse mechanical support. I don't think that their playstyle will change, Dyrus probably should step up huge this split for TSM to challenge C9 for top-spot, Bjergsen can't carry everyone + Amazing has those off-games when he is pulling Cyanide and doing nothing, even not stealing objectives. Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 04:40 wei2coolman wrote:On May 11 2014 04:36 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On May 11 2014 04:33 Itsmedudeman wrote:
People say C9's macro strategy is good but I don't think it's that great. Game 1 vs OMG proved they can't play certain team comps and their playstyle is still very linear. They're really bad at making picks and they're bad at split pushing strategies. Even in their win vs. Fnatic I thought they got a bit lucky that Fnatic returned C9's mistakes with their own by greedily trying to delay their backs. C9 are predictable in champion picks, you pretty much can expect always what to wait. They're just head above CLG and 2 heads above everyone else in macroing in NA, that's why they dominate. If teams start to ban out Balls on new patch, i'm scared for C9 tbh, even if i'm not cheering for them. They're only predictable because they play meta, and no one can beat them. No one has forced c9 off meta. For good reason too, cuz c9 plays meta better than anyone else. I didn't say that it's bad, there is always a possibility just, that they will be caught off-guard by curve ball/just straight outplayed by another meta comp.
True, if all C9 does is just try to take C9 head on in a straight up game of team fights and laning they could end up losing.
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On May 11 2014 04:45 Fusilero wrote:
I believe scarra said that he's working on creating support staff for dig. He's probably going to be coaching himself
hnggg, shiphtur and zion actually learning to work as team. Digoast looking scurry.
also, tsm still going to be boring laning farmfest of a team, even with amazing. Until they actually learn to rotate objectives with minion waves and map pressure, they're always going to play this way. All Amazing is going to do is make ganks work out. Which all amounts to TSM winning early game, and playing EU style of farm farm farm farm farm, win.
Edit or: farm farm farm farm farm farm, throw at baron, lose.
or farm farm farm farm farm farm, get out scaled, lose.
or farm farm farm farm, get caughtout farming, lose.
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United States47024 Posts
On May 11 2014 03:45 cuppatea wrote:
Why do people keep lumping China in with Korea?
2 of the top 4 Chinese teams were at IEM Katowice less than 2 months ago and they lost to Fnatic/Gambit/C9. Past results would suggest China are far closer in skill to EU/NA than Korea.
LPL is always ~2 patches behind every other region and at the time, iG was solidly the last place team in LPL. That they got better subsequently doesn't change how awful their play was at the time and their unfamiliarity with the patch.
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as much as korean macro play is better than western, asian mechanics are just generally >>> western as well, which can only really be attributed to how much you play the game. This is reinforced by the fact that the players with the best mechanics in korea are the dedicated soloqueue players, whereas in na/eu, they're the "dudes with real sick mechanics," not necessarily the most dedicated practicers. Mechanical difference between regions would probably be much easier to fix with worse western infrastructure, compared to macro strategy.
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basically, any Korean team in the top 4 is probably better than any team outside of Korea, teams around 5-8 are probably around OMG level and better than anything in the West. I'd give the Jin air green wings >50% odds against C9, for example.
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On May 11 2014 05:06 Kupon3ss wrote:
basically, any Korean team in the top 4 is probably better than any team outside of Korea, teams around 5-8 are probably around OMG level and better than anything in the West. I'd give the Jin air green wings >50% odds against C9, for example.
I always dismiss teams like Jin Air and Prime as terrible but now... Damn, at least they give some top teams a fight sometimes.
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if we're talking Stealths 50% is low imo
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On May 11 2014 05:34 Slusher wrote:
if we're talking Stealths 50% is low imo
Stealths are still wildcard, as well as Optimus.
+ Stealths > 50% and Falcons are < 50%, so we're somewhere near :p
+ NJBS and IM are rebuilding, so West is going to struggle and suffer even more.
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Ah, international events. I know I can trust you to bring out the same fucking debate spread on for pages and pages regardless of, well, anything.
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yea because last international tournament SKT's rank amongst Korean teams was up for debate ::eyeroll::
wth are we supposed to talk about in this thread, get over yourself
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On May 11 2014 05:19 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 05:06 Kupon3ss wrote:
basically, any Korean team in the top 4 is probably better than any team outside of Korea, teams around 5-8 are probably around OMG level and better than anything in the West. I'd give the Jin air green wings >50% odds against C9, for example. I always dismiss teams like Jin Air and Prime as terrible but now... Damn, at least they give some top teams a fight sometimes.
Old b and zentjin are legit players, prime optimus still make all the amateur mistakes but they could be a legitimate threat next season if they make it.
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On May 11 2014 05:50 Slusher wrote:
yea because last international tournament SKT's rank amongst Korean teams was up for debate ::eyeroll::
wth are we supposed to talk about in this thread, get over yourself
Yeah, because that's certainly what I'm refering to and not the ridiculous Korea>china>na/eu>sea shit or how to improve NA's infrastructure or how/why teams are behind internationally. You can go back a decade (well not as much for BW I suppose), so go back to sc2's release and simply replace player's names and it's the exact same debate.
It's played out and boring.
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I haven't followed SC, am I allowed to wonder why does my region suck?
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On May 11 2014 06:13 AlterKot wrote:
I haven't followed SC, am I allowed to wonder why does my region suck?
I really like the fact that a region is that much more dominant over another. I've always liked the story line of Korean >>>>> foreigners.
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Yeah, I like storylines where two regions have boring games that are essentially who can be less shit than the other while the others air at strange times and so it might be difficult for some to get involved in the superior aspect of the scene.
On May 11 2014 05:53 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
Yeah, because that's certainly what I'm refering to and not the ridiculous Korea>china>na/eu>sea shit or how to improve NA's infrastructure or how/why teams are behind internationally. You can go back a decade (well not as much for BW I suppose), so go back to sc2's release and simply replace player's names and it's the exact same debate.
It's played out and boring.
This guy sounds like a struggler.
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I just really dislike when people come in a thread and say 'what you guys are talking about is stupid' and offers no transition into something else
like the games were ~6 hours ago at this point what did he expect to walk in on? if I was a homophobe I wouldn't click on the gay starcraft players thread every time it got bumped.
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United States37500 Posts
On May 11 2014 06:56 Slusher wrote:
I just really dislike when people come in a thread and say 'what you guys are talking about is stupid' and offers no transition into something else
like the games were ~6 hours ago at this point what did he expect to walk in on? if I was a homophobe I wouldn't click on the gay starcraft players thread every time it got bumped.
While LR threads are naturally more loosely moderated on TL, I have to say that I don't like how I users bash things they don't like with little to no reasoning.
It's really just whining and adds nothing to the discussion about the matches.
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At least we still have Foreigners >>>> Korea in Dota 2... for a little bit longer at least...
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On May 11 2014 07:20 BrownBear wrote:
At least we still have Foreigners >>>> Korea in Dota 2... for a little bit longer at least...
Zephyr lost a recent series to MVP.Phoenix.
Granted Zephyr would be like, SNA level if they weren't competing in Korea.
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EPT
