EPT[Riot] LoL All-Stars Tournament 2014 - Page 139
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Fusilero
United Kingdom50293 Posts
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On May 11 2014 04:17 Fusilero wrote: If bengi/mandu really have recovered then I'd place SKT above the CJs and KTs, I'd have to see them against shield and the samsungs to put them over those three though. Against frost was a result of how bad bengi was as he basically did nothing as swift set up a tent at mid. Only team which is probably stronger than SKT T1 right now is Ozone, Blue are too wildcard and Shield will probably downfall after this season because of their age. Frost is stronger than people think, they can definitely go to Ro4 and higher next season if Madlife plays like he plays on AllStars lol. On May 11 2014 04:13 ghrur wrote: Personally, seeing how the C9 vs OMG games aren't really a stomp, but Korea stomps everyone, it seems more like: Korea >>> China > NA/EU >> Sea. Well, it's too harsh. But if OMG crashes 0-3 tomorrow without stuff, we can agree on ">>". On May 11 2014 04:19 Slusher wrote: well there are some interesting things about ranking, for instance I think head to head KTA would lose to SKT K, because Rookie is a weak link (in my eyes), but vs. Mids not faker I don't think he would anchor his team as badly as Bengi and Pumandu are currently when vs. Koreans. You're probably first who sees Rookie as weak link in Arrows and not Arrow :D | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
On May 11 2014 03:59 KissBlade wrote: Why does itsdudeman keep saying SKT1 is a 6-8 team in Korea when it's not true at all? SKT1 will always be a threat to any of the top teams. They looked a bit shakey but I hardly think it's doom and gloom for them. Faker/Piglet are just too good. Because they are. And yes, I've been saying it but the top 8 teams in Korea are not that far apart in skill level to the point where a team could never take a game off each other. It's quite possible that Shield could have lost to both KT B and Blaze on another day. However, I don't think SKT can win a bo5 against a lot of teams right now without some major luck. On May 11 2014 04:19 Slusher wrote: well there are some interesting things about ranking, for instance I think head to head KTA would lose to SKT K, because Rookie is a weak link (in my eyes), but vs. Mids not faker I don't think he would anchor his team as badly as Bengi and Pumandu are currently when vs. Koreans. Bengi looks good right now because of how far behind the international meta is in the early game. EU and NA were literally doing what Koreans were doing several patches ago. This tournament proves absolutely nothing in terms of how they'd do currently against Korean teams. I'd say it'd be more or less the same. Poohmandu has not looked that good this tournament at all and was sort of the reason why SKT almost looked like they could lose a few games. If he was at the level during Winter I'd say SKT would be a top 4 team in Korea despite being worse than other teams in decision making. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
On May 11 2014 04:18 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: Only team which is probably stronger than SKT T1 right now is Ozone, Blue are too wildcard and Shield will probably downfall after this season because of their age. Frost is stronger than people think, they can definitely go to Ro4 and higher next season if Madlife plays like he plays on AllStars lol. Well, it's too harsh. But if OMG crashes 0-3 tomorrow without stuff, we can agree on ">>". You're probably first who sees Rookie as weak link in Arrows and not Arrow :D OMG is literally the only team that could hold their own in OGN from LPL right now. | ||
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On May 11 2014 04:23 Itsmedudeman wrote: OMG is literally the only team that could hold their own in OGN from LPL right now. EDG can hold their ground as well. And it's not like China or Korea will get more than 3-4 spots on Worlds to compete. On May 11 2014 04:22 Itsmedudeman wrote: Because they are. And yes, I've been saying it but the top 8 teams in Korea are not that far apart in skill level to the point where a team could never take a game off each other. It's quite possible that Shield could have lost to both KT B and Blaze on another day. However, I don't think SKT can win a bo5 against a lot of teams right now without some major luck. So harsh, wut. T1 K can fight and win against everyone with non-slumping bengi and PoohManDu, at least, with one of them not slumping. | ||
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Fusilero
United Kingdom50293 Posts
Best Chinese jungler means that clearlove is beneficial to his lanes rather than harmless (Pomelo pls) or harmful (Ruo pls) | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
On May 11 2014 04:25 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: EDG can hold their ground as well. And it's not like China or Korea will get more than 3-4 spots on Worlds to compete. So harsh, wut. T1 K can fight and win against everyone with non-slumping bengi and PoohManDu, at least, with one of them not slumping. "Nonslumping" is the key word, but Poohmandu's level is far behind right now. I think Bengi may return to form soon if they could just understand the game a bit better. They are still reaaally far from dominating the scene though I think. Their pick and ban strategy has remained stale and the same for so long. Pick strong lanes at all costs, get faker a winning lane, pick a decent bot lane duo and look for a lane swap. Sometimes they forego team compositions and lose that way. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
On May 11 2014 04:25 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: So harsh, wut. T1 K can fight and win against everyone with non-slumping bengi and PoohManDu, at least, with one of them not slumping. he said right now, and the reality is right now, they are. On May 11 2014 04:18 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: You're probably first who sees Rookie as weak link in Arrows and not Arrow :D His Lulu is really telling, you can count the times he uses shield on an ally that needs it instead of offensively on one hand if at all, same with speed boost self vs. ally or even Poly On May 11 2014 04:22 Itsmedudeman wrote: Bengi looks good right now because of how far behind the international meta is in the early game. EU and NA were literally doing what Koreans were doing several patches ago. This tournament proves absolutely nothing in terms of how they'd do currently against Korean teams. I'd say it'd be more or less the same. Poohmandu has not looked that good this tournament at all and was sort of the reason why SKT almost looked like they could lose a few games. If he was at the level during Winter I'd say SKT would be a top 4 team in Korea despite being worse than other teams in decision making. so we agree then? | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On May 11 2014 02:01 Scip wrote: What does "too individual talent focus" even mean. I can't make the smallest bit of sense out of that phrase no matter how hard I try. it means, they win based off individual talent, so when it comes to meeting teams that have better individual talent, they have no macro strat and they get their asses kicked like they're fucking wood league. Why do you think for the longest time TSM got the constant stigma of "oh they're so boring, they just lane forever, and then win". it's fucking easy to dominate NA so long just cuz of better lanes, guess what the fuck happens when you play against a team when all their guys are comparable/better, and have better strategy? You get ROFLSTOMPED. On May 11 2014 02:30 Zergneedsfood wrote: What do NA teams have that Korean teams don't? Almost all of the NA teams have analysts/coaches. You could argue the quality of those coaches are questionable, but they're still there. What are they missing then? Also, as far as I know, SC2 infrastructure was really good to boot and Koreans had the same infrastructure essentially as most Western teams. Guess who ended up fucking everybody? You're comparing little league coaches to professional coaches. It's not even just quality difference, it's like a fucking world apart. You're also missing the threat of being tossed out for underperforming. Pretty much all the Korean contract is dropped the second a player starts underperforming. Oh, KT B, you get 2nd place in OGN? better disband team, and try and make another team again. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
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Fusilero
United Kingdom50293 Posts
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On May 11 2014 04:33 Itsmedudeman wrote: People say C9's macro strategy is good but I don't think it's that great. Game 1 vs OMG proved they can't play certain team comps and their playstyle is still very linear. They're really bad at making picks and they're bad at split pushing strategies. Even in their win vs. Fnatic I thought they got a bit lucky that Fnatic returned C9's mistakes with their own by greedily trying to delay their backs. C9 are predictable in champion picks, you pretty much can expect always what to wait. They're just head above CLG and 2 heads above everyone else in macroing in NA, that's why they dominate. If teams start to ban out Balls on new patch, i'm scared for C9 tbh, even if i'm not cheering for them. | ||
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SagaZ
France3460 Posts
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
On May 11 2014 04:36 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: C9 are predictable in champion picks, you pretty much can expect always what to wait. They're just head above CLG and 2 heads above everyone else in macroing in NA, that's why they dominate. If teams start to ban out Balls on new patch, i'm scared for C9 tbh, even if i'm not cheering for them. I don't think CLG will challenge C9 any time soon. If there's an even more predictable/linear team than C9 it's CLG. TSM has the best chance but they play so damn passively. Amazing is a playmaker so that might change but he's also from EU which is the king of passivity. Him being the main shotcaller is not good for TSM. They need to develop a more aggressive playstyle in the mid-late game. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
On May 11 2014 04:36 SagaZ wrote: Korea = Brazil >>> EU > NA = China only when Morde isn't banned | ||
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Fusilero
United Kingdom50293 Posts
On May 11 2014 04:38 Itsmedudeman wrote: I don't think CLG will challenge C9 any time soon. If there's an even more predictable/linear team than C9 it's CLG. TSM has the best chance but they play so damn passively. Amazing is a playmaker so that might change but he's also from EU which is the king of passivity. Amazing was really the only non passive player on Wolves, wolves would gain a lead, get scared and wait for forg1ven to get 500 cs before doing anything. Normally either amazing doesn't single handedly create a lead or they die/throw before forg1ven hits his 500 cs mark. I think on TSM the team on the whole with amazing's presence should be a more active team | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On May 11 2014 04:33 Itsmedudeman wrote: People say C9's macro strategy is good but I don't think it's that great. Game 1 vs OMG proved they can't play certain team comps and their playstyle is still very linear. They're really bad at making picks and they're bad at split pushing strategies. Even in their win vs. Fnatic I thought they got a bit lucky that Fnatic returned C9's mistakes with their own by greedily trying to delay their backs. Like yeah, they're better at rotating than Fnatic and I thought they were better than Fnatic even at Worlds but whenever they meet Fnatic just runs circles around them and since C9 depends heavily on just team fighting or pushing as 5 to win they look lost at times. I would say c9's strengths are: godly pick/ban phase (relative to NA), decisive calls, balls, meteos, teamfighting when they know they can win (part of the decisive bit). they usually push as 5, because they're confident in their ability to teamfight, just like coast usually splits 4:1 because they're confident in their ability to splitpush. It's just a matter of preference imo. The main thing holding c9 back in terms of being strong international team is still individual talent, and some mechanics issues. On May 11 2014 04:36 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: C9 are predictable in champion picks, you pretty much can expect always what to wait. They're just head above CLG and 2 heads above everyone else in macroing in NA, that's why they dominate. If teams start to ban out Balls on new patch, i'm scared for C9 tbh, even if i'm not cheering for them. They're only predictable because they play meta, and no one can beat them. No one has forced c9 off meta. For good reason too, cuz c9 plays meta better than anyone else. On May 11 2014 04:35 Fusilero wrote: To be fair teams have started to do that, picking up zion/shiphtur to replace cruzer/scarra guys they liked is indicative of dignitas trying to not be the team that goes "Well we're 3rd/4th whoop so worth" or TSM getting amazing knowing that oddone is likely to struggle against the best of the best that TSM is aiming for. Dig would be a very scary team if they had a coach. Currently they got the raw individual talent, but no shotcalling... | ||
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On May 11 2014 04:38 Itsmedudeman wrote: I don't think CLG will challenge C9 any time soon. If there's an even more predictable/linear team than C9 it's CLG. TSM has the best chance but they play so damn passively. Amazing is a playmaker so that might change but he's also from EU which is the king of passivity. Him being the main shotcaller is not good for TSM. They need to develop a more aggressive playstyle in the mid-late game. Well, CLG has deeper champion pools right now than C9 and if Seraph can join team's playstyle fast, i can see them at least not crashing like TSM. + better mechanical skill can let CLG survive those dragon fights in which C9 excel. TSM might be same to last split but with better mechanical jungler and worse mechanical support. I don't think that their playstyle will change, Dyrus probably should step up huge this split for TSM to challenge C9 for top-spot, Bjergsen can't carry everyone + Amazing has those off-games when he is pulling Cyanide and doing nothing, even not stealing objectives. On May 11 2014 04:40 wei2coolman wrote: They're only predictable because they play meta, and no one can beat them. No one has forced c9 off meta. For good reason too, cuz c9 plays meta better than anyone else. I didn't say that it's bad, there is always a possibility just, that they will be caught off-guard by curve ball/just straight outplayed by another meta comp. | ||
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Fusilero
United Kingdom50293 Posts
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