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On May 11 2014 02:06 TzaTzers wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 01:57 Itsmedudeman wrote:On May 11 2014 01:55 TzaTzers wrote:On May 11 2014 01:51 Itsmedudeman wrote:On May 11 2014 01:45 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 11 2014 01:44 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Teams staying in NA is better for the scene. Most important thing should be keeping interest and if the best teams like CLG and TSM went over to Korea to play at unwatchable hours only to get completely stomped there would be a big loss of interest. Yeah international tournaments are great, but you are dead fucking wrong if you think the scene would be better if LCS were gone and it were like the old days. It promotes amateur teams whereas a pure international scene would be like a majority of korean teams with only a few elite NA/EU teams and everyone else suffers. No shit it's better for the scene that's not the argument that's being made here. Also, fans of BW would know, but nobody relevant gave a fuck that BW was dominated by Koreans. That's because people could put aside their national pride (thank fucking god) and enjoy the mastery that were the Starcraft Broodwar progamers. Oh yes, because watching events at 4 am should be what people have to do to keep up with a scene. There's different ways to watch... you can always subscribe and get the vods or just watch the rebroadcasts. Which is nothing like watching a live event. When people miss sporting events they usually just look at the results later on. There's absolutely no suspense when you know that it's already happened. You're talking about keeping up with a scene, there's ways to keep up with it if the viewing times are not working for you, whether it be watching the rebroadcasts or simply just learning the results. If you want to feel the excitement of watching it live then watch it live, even if it's at times that are stupid. People here have been doing that for years already, yes it sucks but it's worth it if you really want to have that experience. If a team were to go to Korea I'm sure foreigners would find ways to watch their games (live or rebroadcasts), the same thing happened when foreigners went to Korea in BW or when TL went to Korea to partner with oGs, people found ways and made sacrifices to watch and support their teams and players.
Completely agree with this statement. Thank god people like this are still around.
People used to watch Starleagues at 240 fucking p at the strangest of hours.
Now if something is too early at 7AM people complain. It's just ridiculous how entitled fans are about literally free content and resort to statements like "oh but it's not like I get to watch it live like a real sporting event" like it's an adequate justification for complaining about something they are already receiving for free.
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On May 11 2014 02:02 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 01:51 Itsmedudeman wrote:On May 11 2014 01:45 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 11 2014 01:44 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Teams staying in NA is better for the scene. Most important thing should be keeping interest and if the best teams like CLG and TSM went over to Korea to play at unwatchable hours only to get completely stomped there would be a big loss of interest. Yeah international tournaments are great, but you are dead fucking wrong if you think the scene would be better if LCS were gone and it were like the old days. It promotes amateur teams whereas a pure international scene would be like a majority of korean teams with only a few elite NA/EU teams and everyone else suffers. No shit it's better for the scene that's not the argument that's being made here. Also, fans of BW would know, but nobody relevant gave a fuck that BW was dominated by Koreans. That's because people could put aside their national pride (thank fucking god) and enjoy the mastery that were the Starcraft Broodwar progamers. Oh yes, because watching events at 4 am should be what people have to do to keep up with a scene. Real strawman bro. That's still not the argument I was making, but you are free to sound salty if you want. Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 01:54 Itsmedudeman wrote:On May 11 2014 01:45 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 11 2014 01:44 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Teams staying in NA is better for the scene. Most important thing should be keeping interest and if the best teams like CLG and TSM went over to Korea to play at unwatchable hours only to get completely stomped there would be a big loss of interest. Yeah international tournaments are great, but you are dead fucking wrong if you think the scene would be better if LCS were gone and it were like the old days. It promotes amateur teams whereas a pure international scene would be like a majority of korean teams with only a few elite NA/EU teams and everyone else suffers. To draw a similar parallel, it's also no surprise that the foreign BW players that received the most notoriety, though I'd grant that part of it is due to them having certain personalities, were the players that ended up playing in Korea for a period of time, regardless of how well they did. Like Ret. Like Idra. Like Nony. If my BW knowledge wasn't so shit, I think there were two or three more, but anyway. Yes there are other fan favorites that people remember like White-Ra, like F91, etc. etc. etc, but the point is the same. And at the end none of them had any notable results to show for it in BW. And that's because the Korean BW scene was literally the only one that mattered. Everything else was like... the level of some LAN tournament in someone's fucking basement. And...again you're completely missing the point. Nobody here is asking for an "international scene." They are merely expressing their frustration that teams that want to change over to other regions are not allowed to. Chinese teams come to NA. Korean teams have come over. We've imported Euro people. Why can't NA move out? That's a stupid double standard that's essentially only because it's a smart business decision by Riot. Your entire point is also just asking for stagflation and inevitably will be further leading us down the current path, which is NA/EU brawl it out in the battle of the shits while the real regions come to Worlds every year, clean house, and stomp everybody without a single cry of resistance. I'd rather there be more opportunities for the other regions to be exposed, because it's obvious the best of NA/EU are not remotely close in challenging any teams of relevant ability in China/KR. And no, I think even with Hai, OMG would have easily shit over Cloud 9.
Because it's incredibly important for NA to retain their most marketable teams? Is that too hard to understand? Riot is trying to keep LCS alive and make it into a respectable league. If C9 were to leave there would be a huge viewer loss, it's just stupid to let your teams play in another league.
And teams going over to Korea has never guaranteed anything. Lots of people went over to Korea for SC2 and they didn't have shit to show for it, or at least not more than they did before. Most players just ended up bombing. CLG ended up bombing and it definitely had a negative impact on their team in many aspects.
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That's...again...not the point? I don't think I've ever contested that it's wrong for Riot to make that decision. I just think it's a fucking dumb one in the long term.
Just gonna say: NA will never be a respectable region until they get more exposure and start learning more from the top teams. People have been hoping when NA will be a respectable region and the only hope has been Cloud 9, a team that emulated Korean strategies who couldn't even get past the Quarterfinals at Worlds and just got stomped by OMG.
The rest of the world is by and large outpacing EU/NA, and without more international exposure to learn, or even just a better solo queue environment to improve mechanically, I don't see any reason to suspect that Cloud 9 will destroy Summer Split and then get destroyed by an Asian team (they'll probably beat whatever EU team comes out though).
Cloud 9 is actually a good team, and that's why it pains me to see that their potential is currently being hampered by the fact that they need a lot more than just competition in NA to reach the next level. You can study VODs all you want, you can practice in solo queue all you want, but as has been shown in sports and various competitions for centuries, if you don't play with the best of the best, you will never be the best.
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rather than teams moving to korea for practice, i think riot should make lcs more competitive by making a format that makes teams more prone to relegation. So that in the worst case scenario where a popular team like tsm or clg fall down and viewership shifts to where they are going (coke league), riot would still maintain hold of the viewership while simultaneously forcing teams to pick up the slack. Correct me if im wrong but that seems like a pretty safe decision, both business-wise and in terms of improving the skill level of the scene.
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On May 11 2014 02:10 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 02:02 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 11 2014 01:51 Itsmedudeman wrote:On May 11 2014 01:45 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 11 2014 01:44 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Teams staying in NA is better for the scene. Most important thing should be keeping interest and if the best teams like CLG and TSM went over to Korea to play at unwatchable hours only to get completely stomped there would be a big loss of interest. Yeah international tournaments are great, but you are dead fucking wrong if you think the scene would be better if LCS were gone and it were like the old days. It promotes amateur teams whereas a pure international scene would be like a majority of korean teams with only a few elite NA/EU teams and everyone else suffers. No shit it's better for the scene that's not the argument that's being made here. Also, fans of BW would know, but nobody relevant gave a fuck that BW was dominated by Koreans. That's because people could put aside their national pride (thank fucking god) and enjoy the mastery that were the Starcraft Broodwar progamers. Oh yes, because watching events at 4 am should be what people have to do to keep up with a scene. Real strawman bro. That's still not the argument I was making, but you are free to sound salty if you want. On May 11 2014 01:54 Itsmedudeman wrote:On May 11 2014 01:45 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 11 2014 01:44 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Teams staying in NA is better for the scene. Most important thing should be keeping interest and if the best teams like CLG and TSM went over to Korea to play at unwatchable hours only to get completely stomped there would be a big loss of interest. Yeah international tournaments are great, but you are dead fucking wrong if you think the scene would be better if LCS were gone and it were like the old days. It promotes amateur teams whereas a pure international scene would be like a majority of korean teams with only a few elite NA/EU teams and everyone else suffers. To draw a similar parallel, it's also no surprise that the foreign BW players that received the most notoriety, though I'd grant that part of it is due to them having certain personalities, were the players that ended up playing in Korea for a period of time, regardless of how well they did. Like Ret. Like Idra. Like Nony. If my BW knowledge wasn't so shit, I think there were two or three more, but anyway. Yes there are other fan favorites that people remember like White-Ra, like F91, etc. etc. etc, but the point is the same. And at the end none of them had any notable results to show for it in BW. And that's because the Korean BW scene was literally the only one that mattered. Everything else was like... the level of some LAN tournament in someone's fucking basement. And...again you're completely missing the point. Nobody here is asking for an "international scene." They are merely expressing their frustration that teams that want to change over to other regions are not allowed to. Chinese teams come to NA. Korean teams have come over. We've imported Euro people. Why can't NA move out? That's a stupid double standard that's essentially only because it's a smart business decision by Riot. Your entire point is also just asking for stagflation and inevitably will be further leading us down the current path, which is NA/EU brawl it out in the battle of the shits while the real regions come to Worlds every year, clean house, and stomp everybody without a single cry of resistance. I'd rather there be more opportunities for the other regions to be exposed, because it's obvious the best of NA/EU are not remotely close in challenging any teams of relevant ability in China/KR. And no, I think even with Hai, OMG would have easily shit over Cloud 9. Because it's incredibly important for NA to retain their most marketable teams? Is that too hard to understand? Riot is trying to keep LCS alive and make it into a respectable league. If C9 were to leave there would be a huge viewer loss, it's just stupid to let your teams play in another league. And teams going over to Korea has never guaranteed anything. Lots of people went over to Korea for SC2 and they didn't have shit to show for it, or at least not more than they did before. Most players just ended up bombing. CLG ended up bombing and it definitely had a negative impact on their team in many aspects.
well lying to the fans in the name of entertainment requires real dedication. Just wondering what the next language tricks will be used to explain why local heroes are getting trashed on.
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On May 11 2014 02:08 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 02:06 TzaTzers wrote:On May 11 2014 01:57 Itsmedudeman wrote:On May 11 2014 01:55 TzaTzers wrote:On May 11 2014 01:51 Itsmedudeman wrote:On May 11 2014 01:45 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 11 2014 01:44 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Teams staying in NA is better for the scene. Most important thing should be keeping interest and if the best teams like CLG and TSM went over to Korea to play at unwatchable hours only to get completely stomped there would be a big loss of interest. Yeah international tournaments are great, but you are dead fucking wrong if you think the scene would be better if LCS were gone and it were like the old days. It promotes amateur teams whereas a pure international scene would be like a majority of korean teams with only a few elite NA/EU teams and everyone else suffers. No shit it's better for the scene that's not the argument that's being made here. Also, fans of BW would know, but nobody relevant gave a fuck that BW was dominated by Koreans. That's because people could put aside their national pride (thank fucking god) and enjoy the mastery that were the Starcraft Broodwar progamers. Oh yes, because watching events at 4 am should be what people have to do to keep up with a scene. There's different ways to watch... you can always subscribe and get the vods or just watch the rebroadcasts. Which is nothing like watching a live event. When people miss sporting events they usually just look at the results later on. There's absolutely no suspense when you know that it's already happened. You're talking about keeping up with a scene, there's ways to keep up with it if the viewing times are not working for you, whether it be watching the rebroadcasts or simply just learning the results. If you want to feel the excitement of watching it live then watch it live, even if it's at times that are stupid. People here have been doing that for years already, yes it sucks but it's worth it if you really want to have that experience. If a team were to go to Korea I'm sure foreigners would find ways to watch their games (live or rebroadcasts), the same thing happened when foreigners went to Korea in BW or when TL went to Korea to partner with oGs, people found ways and made sacrifices to watch and support their teams and players. Completely agree with this statement. Thank god people like this are still around. People used to watch Starleagues at 240 fucking p at the strangest of hours. Now if something is too early at 7AM people complain. It's just ridiculous how entitled fans are about literally free content and resort to statements like "oh but it's not like I get to watch it live like a real sporting event" like it's an adequate justification for complaining about something they are already receiving for free.
You're forgetting that not all fans are fucking diehard League fans. You wanna know why anything is successful? It's not because of you or others who commit to watching every single fucking event no matter what. It's the casual viewer base that let's us see numbers get up to 200k+ every day in LCS compared to maybe like 20k-40k for OGN. The elitist attitude is honestly so stupid I don't understand how you can think that's what people should have to do. The scene should cater to the fans, not the other way around.
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On May 11 2014 02:12 Zergneedsfood wrote:
That's...again...not the point? I don't think I've ever contested that it's wrong for Riot to make that decision. I just think it's a fucking dumb one in the long term.
Just gonna say: NA will never be a respectable region until they get more exposure and start learning more from the top teams. People have been hoping when NA will be a respectable region and the only hope has been Cloud 9, a team that emulated Korean strategies who couldn't even get past the Quarterfinals at Worlds and just got stomped by OMG.
The rest of the world is by and large outpacing EU/NA, and without more international exposure to learn, or even just a better solo queue environment to improve mechanically, I don't see any reason to suspect that Cloud 9 will destroy Summer Split and then get destroyed by an Asian team (they'll probably beat whatever EU team comes out though).
See, this is where you are 100% wrong. C9 going over for a few months in Korea WILL NOT CHANGE ANYTHING. Why would a team that devotes maybe 2 months of good practice be better than teams that have good practice ALL fucking year long? Not to mention patches change the meta so frequently to the point where the stuff you learn over 2 months can become completely irrelevant the next day. Unless, for some reason you are somehow suggesting that C9 just live in Korea for the rest of their league careers and everyone else should just wake up to watch them at 4 am in the morning to play in OGN.
Name one player in SC/SC2 who got good success after doing 2 months worth of training in Korea that lasted longer than 1 event. Please. Oh, and these were players who were living inside of gaming houses of legit teams and not on their own just laddering. C9 would probably be completely on their own in Korea with maybe a few people like Locodoco aiding them. Otherwise the top organizations have no reason to help them.
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On May 11 2014 01:51 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 01:49 sharky246 wrote:On May 11 2014 01:42 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 11 2014 01:41 sharky246 wrote:On May 11 2014 01:34 Fusilero wrote:On May 11 2014 01:31 Numy wrote:On May 11 2014 01:27 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 11 2014 01:24 ParadeofMadness wrote:On May 11 2014 01:17 cuppatea wrote:
I recall Chauster in one of his AMA's confidently predicting that Korea would never be able to surpass NA in LoL due to the size of the headstart they had. He obviously never followed Starcraft. Fucking Aesop wrote The Tortoise and the Hare for a reason. For a supposedly intelligent person you might've thougt Chauster had read it before. I think Chauster was under the impression that both regions would go at the same pace. At the time, he probably believed that NA infrastructure would replicate a lot of what happened in BW when Koreans basically just took over the West and roflstomped everyone (aka the west would learn something). It didn't round out that way, and it also doesn't help that solo queue isn't taken seriously even in the highest levels so the talent pool in NA has become something of a joke since we have to import from other regions all the time to stay competitive. A potential top 4 team next season is gonna basically be China import, TSM has two Euro imports, CLG has a euro, a fake korean, and a potentially real korean, and C9 is the only team that's actually full American (and ironically they are the best). At the time Chauster didn't know that Riot would region lock and deny all competition either. On May 11 2014 01:30 Novice wrote:
Why does it have to start at 4am pst? Even three hours later would make it watchable for most of North America For the Asian audience. The story of C9 and CLG trying to play in OGN winter annoyed me, two teams are taking the steps to contend at a world class level but rito just went "lol no, stay in NA where you're nice and marketable" Riot was doing them a favour. NA hope gonna go down the drain if people see no name nlb teams roflstomp the top NA teams There's no point being a king of garbage imo Just look at what good that did for Fnatic. Sometimes you gotta get stomped before you pick yourself back up and improve. C9, from their interviews at least, have, by far, the best mentality to improvement that I've seen from anybody in NA, second only to like...fucking Nientonsoh who always said he was a shit gamer and needed to improve and be the best he can be. CLG went to korea before, got mediocre results. They came back and had nothing to show for. I blame that on the team and not on anything intrinsically wrong with going to Korea and training there. Like you're using the example of a team with Hotshotgg, who was already on the decline, Voyboy who has historically never been a top player relatively speaking and has never really excelled at improving at this game (like...just watch how he adapted to midlane). Mesh the players and their inability to communicate (which plagued CLG for years) and their hot headed personalities and you have a recipe for disaster.
It was definitely a team thing. They probably didn't have any idea of what practice meant in LoL. Even then, it's a lot about applying/understanding what they are learning that is the more difficult part. When CLG first came back from Korea, they definitely were sharper(rotating, lane pushing, etc), but they were still unclear about what they had to do at times. I think more than anything else, the personalities on the team weren't really what you'd want. You had HotshotGG, Chauster(granted he had a reason for his cockiness at the time, but it quickly backfired), and SaintVicious. There's no way they respected each other enough to put in the work required in Korea.
If they went to Korea now, I think it would benefit them a lot more. Mostly because they would now have a coach/analyst who would point them in the proper direction. It also helps having your coach(monte) be in the same country so you can review games in person. In this sense, I'd say any team who has a proper organization supporting them could make going to Korea work.
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On May 11 2014 02:13 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 02:08 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 11 2014 02:06 TzaTzers wrote:On May 11 2014 01:57 Itsmedudeman wrote:On May 11 2014 01:55 TzaTzers wrote:On May 11 2014 01:51 Itsmedudeman wrote:On May 11 2014 01:45 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 11 2014 01:44 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Teams staying in NA is better for the scene. Most important thing should be keeping interest and if the best teams like CLG and TSM went over to Korea to play at unwatchable hours only to get completely stomped there would be a big loss of interest. Yeah international tournaments are great, but you are dead fucking wrong if you think the scene would be better if LCS were gone and it were like the old days. It promotes amateur teams whereas a pure international scene would be like a majority of korean teams with only a few elite NA/EU teams and everyone else suffers. No shit it's better for the scene that's not the argument that's being made here. Also, fans of BW would know, but nobody relevant gave a fuck that BW was dominated by Koreans. That's because people could put aside their national pride (thank fucking god) and enjoy the mastery that were the Starcraft Broodwar progamers. Oh yes, because watching events at 4 am should be what people have to do to keep up with a scene. There's different ways to watch... you can always subscribe and get the vods or just watch the rebroadcasts. Which is nothing like watching a live event. When people miss sporting events they usually just look at the results later on. There's absolutely no suspense when you know that it's already happened. You're talking about keeping up with a scene, there's ways to keep up with it if the viewing times are not working for you, whether it be watching the rebroadcasts or simply just learning the results. If you want to feel the excitement of watching it live then watch it live, even if it's at times that are stupid. People here have been doing that for years already, yes it sucks but it's worth it if you really want to have that experience. If a team were to go to Korea I'm sure foreigners would find ways to watch their games (live or rebroadcasts), the same thing happened when foreigners went to Korea in BW or when TL went to Korea to partner with oGs, people found ways and made sacrifices to watch and support their teams and players. Completely agree with this statement. Thank god people like this are still around. People used to watch Starleagues at 240 fucking p at the strangest of hours. Now if something is too early at 7AM people complain. It's just ridiculous how entitled fans are about literally free content and resort to statements like "oh but it's not like I get to watch it live like a real sporting event" like it's an adequate justification for complaining about something they are already receiving for free. You're forgetting that not all fans are fucking diehard League fans. You wanna know why anything is successful? It's not because of you or others who commit to watching every single fucking event no matter what. It's the casual viewer base that let's us see numbers get up to 200k+ every day in LCS compared to maybe like 20k-40k for OGN. The elitist attitude is honestly so stupid I don't understand how you can think that's what people should have to do. The scene should cater to the fans, not the other way around.
Pretty sure you're still missing the point, and this strawman thinking that I'm telling people we should all move to Korea is fucking dumb. You need to like....learn to read before you just call someone who uses BW analogies an elitist.
Nobody is saying you should have to wake up at 4AM to watch a league that you're invested in. How is that even the case right now? You don't have to wake up to watch good leagues like the Chinese and the Korean scene. And that's fine. Perhaps it makes you less knowledgeable when International tournaments come around, but overall the appeal of NA and EU still exists.
I don't think anybody is making any of the suggestions that you are arguing against. The only thing we are saying is that if teams want to move out of NA and go to a place and get better, there is zero reason why they shouldn't be allowed. Yes, it may be a bad idea from a business perspective, but I don't care about fans, because they're dumb and don't know what's good for them half the time, I care about the team.
I care about teams like C9 or CLG getting better. As a result, I don't care if fans get pissed off because we all know 98% of them have asinine and misinformed opinions.
Just look at all the people who legitimately thought OMG weren't sandbagging in the C9 game in the group stage. Or Fnatic fans who think that their team is still good. Or people back in Season 3 worlds wondering why Frost/Blaze weren't at Worlds when they, at the time, had become really bad teams and were experiencing slumps, or why people don't know why SEA sucks. It's because a wide pool of fans don't understand anything, and so why should I care about the opinions of fans when it comes to decisions of whether or not teams want to get better.
On May 11 2014 02:15 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 02:12 Zergneedsfood wrote:
That's...again...not the point? I don't think I've ever contested that it's wrong for Riot to make that decision. I just think it's a fucking dumb one in the long term.
Just gonna say: NA will never be a respectable region until they get more exposure and start learning more from the top teams. People have been hoping when NA will be a respectable region and the only hope has been Cloud 9, a team that emulated Korean strategies who couldn't even get past the Quarterfinals at Worlds and just got stomped by OMG.
The rest of the world is by and large outpacing EU/NA, and without more international exposure to learn, or even just a better solo queue environment to improve mechanically, I don't see any reason to suspect that Cloud 9 will destroy Summer Split and then get destroyed by an Asian team (they'll probably beat whatever EU team comes out though). See, this is where you are 100% wrong. C9 going over for a few months in Korea WILL NOT CHANGE ANYTHING. Why would a team that devotes maybe 2 months of good practice be better than teams that have good practice ALL fucking year long? Not to mention patches change the meta so frequently to the point where the stuff you learn over 2 months can become completely irrelevant the next day. Unless, for some reason you are somehow suggesting that C9 just live in Korea for the rest of their league careers and everyone else should just wake up to watch them at 4 am in the morning to play in OGN. Name one player in SC/SC2 who got good success after doing 2 months worth of training in Korea that lasted longer than 1 event. Please.
So basically you're saying that no matter what NA teams do, they'll get fucked? Nice optimism bro.
Also I never watched SC2 so I can't speak for that, but Ret/Nony/Idra were the best Foreign BW progamers. This was back when infrastructure for BW was relatively shit too, so the fact that they were probably considered the best is testament to what Korea did to them. If you watched any of the games, they were by far the most polished of players (especially Idra) mechanically and strategically. Yes, they could never match up against any serious competition, but that's because the skill divide was far too great by then.
League is a much different animal and is much easier, I think, for teams to catch up strategically since the mechanical demands are much less than what BW had.
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did people really complain about the times? Riot is posting the vods and stuff though... I guess if they had no vods it'd kind of suck but that's not the case
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On May 11 2014 01:51 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 01:45 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 11 2014 01:44 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Teams staying in NA is better for the scene. Most important thing should be keeping interest and if the best teams like CLG and TSM went over to Korea to play at unwatchable hours only to get completely stomped there would be a big loss of interest. Yeah international tournaments are great, but you are dead fucking wrong if you think the scene would be better if LCS were gone and it were like the old days. It promotes amateur teams whereas a pure international scene would be like a majority of korean teams with only a few elite NA/EU teams and everyone else suffers. No shit it's better for the scene that's not the argument that's being made here. Also, fans of BW would know, but nobody relevant gave a fuck that BW was dominated by Koreans. That's because people could put aside their national pride (thank fucking god) and enjoy the mastery that were the Starcraft Broodwar progamers. Oh yes, because watching events at 4 am should be what people have to do to keep up with a scene.
Europe exist and it's a good time for us.
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On May 11 2014 02:24 Nos- wrote:
did people really complain about the times? Riot is posting the vods and stuff though... I guess if they had no vods it'd kind of suck but that's not the case
People complain about times because "I miss out on the live experience."
Which has its merits, but that only is applicable if you're trying to watch CN and KR (and I guess SEA if people watch that a lot). The argument being made here is completely different and I think whoever I'm responding to is just misinterpreting everything.
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NA will never be on the level of Korean teams until they bring up their own infrastructure to match. This has been said for years and years in BW and SC2. Imo this "could" happen 5-10 years down the line when actual smart players retire and move onto coaching or just people with a good sense for the game become exposed and gain a lot of experience.
And no, a team cannot keep up with other teams by going over for just a few months. Not in SC, and certainly not in league where strategies change on a month to month basis. Ask SKT just how fast they went from completely undisupted Gods to 6th-8th place team in Korea in just one off season.
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On May 11 2014 02:28 Itsmedudeman wrote:
NA will never be on the level of Korean teams until they bring up their own infrastructure to match. This has been said for years and years in BW and SC2. And no, a team cannot keep up with other teams by going over for just a few months. Not in SC, and certainly not in league where strategies change on a month to month basis. Ask SKT just how fast they went from completely undisupted Gods to 6th-8th place team in Korea in just one off season.
What do NA teams have that Korean teams don't?
Almost all of the NA teams have analysts/coaches. You could argue the quality of those coaches are questionable, but they're still there.
What are they missing then?
Also, as far as I know, SC2 infrastructure was really good to boot and Koreans had the same infrastructure essentially as most Western teams. Guess who ended up fucking everybody?
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On May 11 2014 02:30 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 02:28 Itsmedudeman wrote:
NA will never be on the level of Korean teams until they bring up their own infrastructure to match. This has been said for years and years in BW and SC2. And no, a team cannot keep up with other teams by going over for just a few months. Not in SC, and certainly not in league where strategies change on a month to month basis. Ask SKT just how fast they went from completely undisupted Gods to 6th-8th place team in Korea in just one off season. What do NA teams have that Korean teams don't? Almost all of the NA teams have analysts/coaches. You could argue the quality of those coaches are questionable, but they're still there. What are they missing then?
good players. lots of good players so the emulation works. C9 have 0 need to progress in the current scene.
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On May 11 2014 02:30 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 02:28 Itsmedudeman wrote:
NA will never be on the level of Korean teams until they bring up their own infrastructure to match. This has been said for years and years in BW and SC2. And no, a team cannot keep up with other teams by going over for just a few months. Not in SC, and certainly not in league where strategies change on a month to month basis. Ask SKT just how fast they went from completely undisupted Gods to 6th-8th place team in Korea in just one off season. What do NA teams have that Korean teams don't? Almost all of the NA teams have analysts/coaches. You could argue the quality of those coaches are questionable, but they're still there. What are they missing then? Also, as far as I know, SC2 infrastructure was really good to boot and Koreans had the same infrastructure essentially as most Western teams. Guess who ended up fucking everybody?
They are missing work ethics and genuine passion for the game. They care too much about money to care about being the best and wrecking everyone
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On May 11 2014 02:32 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 02:30 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 11 2014 02:28 Itsmedudeman wrote:
NA will never be on the level of Korean teams until they bring up their own infrastructure to match. This has been said for years and years in BW and SC2. And no, a team cannot keep up with other teams by going over for just a few months. Not in SC, and certainly not in league where strategies change on a month to month basis. Ask SKT just how fast they went from completely undisupted Gods to 6th-8th place team in Korea in just one off season. What do NA teams have that Korean teams don't? Almost all of the NA teams have analysts/coaches. You could argue the quality of those coaches are questionable, but they're still there. What are they missing then? good players. lots of good players so the emulation works. C9 have 0 need to progress in the current scene.
Prettttty much.
I'll just reiterate this and I'm gonna go do something more worthwhile with my life: You can only improve if you play with the best of the best. Trying to say that you need better "infrastructure" in a region where a wide pool of your players are really bad compared to the rest of the world doesn't help or change the fact that your players are not that good.
Sneaky may be #1 on Challenger, but he looks like a joke compared to serious contenders for World #1 AD. Same with Doublelift too, even though I'm an avid DL fan. Same with plenty of midlaners like Link and Hai, who in All Stars and Worlds respectively were the hopes of NA midlaners and proceeded to perform underwhelmingly against even the World's lesser tiers of competition.
And Balls? #1 Top laner? Got helped by Meteos for 30 minutes and ends 0/5. Dyrus? 0/10 with his best champion at Worlds.
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On May 11 2014 02:34 sharky246 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 02:30 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 11 2014 02:28 Itsmedudeman wrote:
NA will never be on the level of Korean teams until they bring up their own infrastructure to match. This has been said for years and years in BW and SC2. And no, a team cannot keep up with other teams by going over for just a few months. Not in SC, and certainly not in league where strategies change on a month to month basis. Ask SKT just how fast they went from completely undisupted Gods to 6th-8th place team in Korea in just one off season. What do NA teams have that Korean teams don't? Almost all of the NA teams have analysts/coaches. You could argue the quality of those coaches are questionable, but they're still there. What are they missing then? Also, as far as I know, SC2 infrastructure was really good to boot and Koreans had the same infrastructure essentially as most Western teams. Guess who ended up fucking everybody? They are missing work ethics and genuine passion for the game. They care too much about money to care about being the best and wrecking everyone
you don't play in a vacuum and you won't progress as fast when the environment you're playing in (EU/NA LCS/yoloqueue) is shitty.
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On May 11 2014 02:30 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 02:28 Itsmedudeman wrote:
NA will never be on the level of Korean teams until they bring up their own infrastructure to match. This has been said for years and years in BW and SC2. And no, a team cannot keep up with other teams by going over for just a few months. Not in SC, and certainly not in league where strategies change on a month to month basis. Ask SKT just how fast they went from completely undisupted Gods to 6th-8th place team in Korea in just one off season. What do NA teams have that Korean teams don't? Almost all of the NA teams have analysts/coaches. You could argue the quality of those coaches are questionable, but they're still there. What are they missing then?
Lol analysts and coaches. I could almost guarantee that the individual players themselves are putting in most of the strategical work right now. At best those analysts and coaches are giving them scouting information on their opponents picks and bans. The quality difference is HUGE. Watch OGN and after every game you'll see the coaches go into the booth and tell them every single thing they did wrong and they command a lot of respect. When C9 loses a game they just talk amongst themselves.
TSM has regi and oddone yeah, but how good are they as analysts/coaches when they were literally just on the team? Is anything really going to change better strategically? Probably not since otherwise it would have changed while they were still on the team.
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that pick 10 game lol, korean jungler vs EU jungler holy shit
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EPT
