|
Teams staying in NA is better for the scene. Most important thing should be keeping interest and if the best teams like CLG and TSM went over to Korea to play at unwatchable hours only to get completely stomped there would be a big loss of interest. Yeah international tournaments are great, but you are dead fucking wrong if you think the scene would be better if LCS were gone and it were like the old days. It promotes amateur teams whereas a pure international scene would be like a majority of korean teams with only a few elite NA/EU teams and everyone else suffers.
|
![[image loading]](https://scontent-a-cdg.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1.0-9/10259837_10203410266194869_523162792289929115_n.jpg)
Dat Cyanide
|
On May 11 2014 01:44 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Teams staying in NA is better for the scene. Most important thing should be keeping interest and if the best teams like CLG and TSM went over to Korea to play at unwatchable hours only to get completely stomped there would be a big loss of interest. Yeah international tournaments are great, but you are dead fucking wrong if you think the scene would be better if LCS were gone and it were like the old days. It promotes amateur teams whereas a pure international scene would be like a majority of korean teams with only a few elite NA/EU teams and everyone else suffers.
No shit it's better for the scene that's not the argument that's being made here.
Also, fans of BW would know, but nobody relevant gave a fuck that BW was dominated by Koreans. That's because people could put aside their national pride (thank fucking god) and enjoy the mastery that were the Starcraft Broodwar progamers.
To draw a similar parallel, it's also no surprise that the foreign BW players that received the most notoriety, though I'd grant that part of it is due to them having certain personalities, were the players that ended up playing in Korea for a period of time, regardless of how well they did. Like Ret. Like Idra. Like Nony. If my BW knowledge wasn't so shit, I think there were two or three more, but anyway. Yes there are other fan favorites that people remember like White-Ra, like F91, etc. etc. etc, but the point is the same.
|
From what I understand CLG regrets going to KR not because it made them worse but because it didn't make them much better and they lost money overall? Not to mention that TSM became more popular than them during their expedition.
Problem is that KR teams might not even want to scrim foreigners unless they qualify for Champions and prove they are worth their time. Also remember that to qualify for CS teams would have to get top20 on ranked ladder very fast, so that's a potential risk. Or the players could leave their team and go to KR unsponsored while 5 random guys play in LCS and then the org signs its previous roster just for playoffs.
|
Tsm is the fnatic of na. They both play so similarly. Too individual talent focus, weak macro strat. At least regi is serious about making tsm better though.
|
On May 11 2014 01:42 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 01:41 sharky246 wrote:On May 11 2014 01:34 Fusilero wrote:On May 11 2014 01:31 Numy wrote:On May 11 2014 01:27 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 11 2014 01:24 ParadeofMadness wrote:On May 11 2014 01:17 cuppatea wrote:
I recall Chauster in one of his AMA's confidently predicting that Korea would never be able to surpass NA in LoL due to the size of the headstart they had. He obviously never followed Starcraft. Fucking Aesop wrote The Tortoise and the Hare for a reason. For a supposedly intelligent person you might've thougt Chauster had read it before. I think Chauster was under the impression that both regions would go at the same pace. At the time, he probably believed that NA infrastructure would replicate a lot of what happened in BW when Koreans basically just took over the West and roflstomped everyone (aka the west would learn something). It didn't round out that way, and it also doesn't help that solo queue isn't taken seriously even in the highest levels so the talent pool in NA has become something of a joke since we have to import from other regions all the time to stay competitive. A potential top 4 team next season is gonna basically be China import, TSM has two Euro imports, CLG has a euro, a fake korean, and a potentially real korean, and C9 is the only team that's actually full American (and ironically they are the best). At the time Chauster didn't know that Riot would region lock and deny all competition either. On May 11 2014 01:30 Novice wrote:
Why does it have to start at 4am pst? Even three hours later would make it watchable for most of North America For the Asian audience. The story of C9 and CLG trying to play in OGN winter annoyed me, two teams are taking the steps to contend at a world class level but rito just went "lol no, stay in NA where you're nice and marketable" Riot was doing them a favour. NA hope gonna go down the drain if people see no name nlb teams roflstomp the top NA teams There's no point being a king of garbage imo Just look at what good that did for Fnatic. Sometimes you gotta get stomped before you pick yourself back up and improve. C9, from their interviews at least, have, by far, the best mentality to improvement that I've seen from anybody in NA, second only to like...fucking Nientonsoh who always said he was a shit gamer and needed to improve and be the best he can be.
CLG went to korea before, got mediocre results. They came back and had nothing to show for. So i really doubt that them going to korea will make a difference now. The problem is the culture and the environment. They are kinda lazy and in NA, personality > results.
|
On May 11 2014 01:49 sharky246 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 01:42 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 11 2014 01:41 sharky246 wrote:On May 11 2014 01:34 Fusilero wrote:On May 11 2014 01:31 Numy wrote:On May 11 2014 01:27 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 11 2014 01:24 ParadeofMadness wrote:On May 11 2014 01:17 cuppatea wrote:
I recall Chauster in one of his AMA's confidently predicting that Korea would never be able to surpass NA in LoL due to the size of the headstart they had. He obviously never followed Starcraft. Fucking Aesop wrote The Tortoise and the Hare for a reason. For a supposedly intelligent person you might've thougt Chauster had read it before. I think Chauster was under the impression that both regions would go at the same pace. At the time, he probably believed that NA infrastructure would replicate a lot of what happened in BW when Koreans basically just took over the West and roflstomped everyone (aka the west would learn something). It didn't round out that way, and it also doesn't help that solo queue isn't taken seriously even in the highest levels so the talent pool in NA has become something of a joke since we have to import from other regions all the time to stay competitive. A potential top 4 team next season is gonna basically be China import, TSM has two Euro imports, CLG has a euro, a fake korean, and a potentially real korean, and C9 is the only team that's actually full American (and ironically they are the best). At the time Chauster didn't know that Riot would region lock and deny all competition either. On May 11 2014 01:30 Novice wrote:
Why does it have to start at 4am pst? Even three hours later would make it watchable for most of North America For the Asian audience. The story of C9 and CLG trying to play in OGN winter annoyed me, two teams are taking the steps to contend at a world class level but rito just went "lol no, stay in NA where you're nice and marketable" Riot was doing them a favour. NA hope gonna go down the drain if people see no name nlb teams roflstomp the top NA teams There's no point being a king of garbage imo Just look at what good that did for Fnatic. Sometimes you gotta get stomped before you pick yourself back up and improve. C9, from their interviews at least, have, by far, the best mentality to improvement that I've seen from anybody in NA, second only to like...fucking Nientonsoh who always said he was a shit gamer and needed to improve and be the best he can be. CLG went to korea before, got mediocre results. They came back and had nothing to show for.
I blame that on the team and not on anything intrinsically wrong with going to Korea and training there. Like you're using the example of a team with Hotshotgg, who was already on the decline, Voyboy who has historically never been a top player relatively speaking and has never really excelled at improving at this game (like...just watch how he adapted to midlane).
Mesh the players and their inability to communicate (which plagued CLG for years) and their hot headed personalities and you have a recipe for disaster.
|
On May 11 2014 01:45 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 01:44 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Teams staying in NA is better for the scene. Most important thing should be keeping interest and if the best teams like CLG and TSM went over to Korea to play at unwatchable hours only to get completely stomped there would be a big loss of interest. Yeah international tournaments are great, but you are dead fucking wrong if you think the scene would be better if LCS were gone and it were like the old days. It promotes amateur teams whereas a pure international scene would be like a majority of korean teams with only a few elite NA/EU teams and everyone else suffers. No shit it's better for the scene that's not the argument that's being made here. Also, fans of BW would know, but nobody relevant gave a fuck that BW was dominated by Koreans. That's because people could put aside their national pride (thank fucking god) and enjoy the mastery that were the Starcraft Broodwar progamers.
Oh yes, because watching events at 4 am should be what people have to do to keep up with a scene.
|
On May 11 2014 01:49 sharky246 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 01:42 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 11 2014 01:41 sharky246 wrote:On May 11 2014 01:34 Fusilero wrote:On May 11 2014 01:31 Numy wrote:On May 11 2014 01:27 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 11 2014 01:24 ParadeofMadness wrote:On May 11 2014 01:17 cuppatea wrote:
I recall Chauster in one of his AMA's confidently predicting that Korea would never be able to surpass NA in LoL due to the size of the headstart they had. He obviously never followed Starcraft. Fucking Aesop wrote The Tortoise and the Hare for a reason. For a supposedly intelligent person you might've thougt Chauster had read it before. I think Chauster was under the impression that both regions would go at the same pace. At the time, he probably believed that NA infrastructure would replicate a lot of what happened in BW when Koreans basically just took over the West and roflstomped everyone (aka the west would learn something). It didn't round out that way, and it also doesn't help that solo queue isn't taken seriously even in the highest levels so the talent pool in NA has become something of a joke since we have to import from other regions all the time to stay competitive. A potential top 4 team next season is gonna basically be China import, TSM has two Euro imports, CLG has a euro, a fake korean, and a potentially real korean, and C9 is the only team that's actually full American (and ironically they are the best). At the time Chauster didn't know that Riot would region lock and deny all competition either. On May 11 2014 01:30 Novice wrote:
Why does it have to start at 4am pst? Even three hours later would make it watchable for most of North America For the Asian audience. The story of C9 and CLG trying to play in OGN winter annoyed me, two teams are taking the steps to contend at a world class level but rito just went "lol no, stay in NA where you're nice and marketable" Riot was doing them a favour. NA hope gonna go down the drain if people see no name nlb teams roflstomp the top NA teams There's no point being a king of garbage imo Just look at what good that did for Fnatic. Sometimes you gotta get stomped before you pick yourself back up and improve. C9, from their interviews at least, have, by far, the best mentality to improvement that I've seen from anybody in NA, second only to like...fucking Nientonsoh who always said he was a shit gamer and needed to improve and be the best he can be. CLG went to korea before, got mediocre results. They came back and had nothing to show for.
CLG has 0 organization at the time. No coaching, no analysis ect. Going to Korea to play soloQ and get stomped in half a dozen scrims doesn't do anything for you.
What EU/NA needs most of all is to get a good team behind the players and thankfully that is finally starting to happen.
|
On May 11 2014 01:45 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 01:44 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Teams staying in NA is better for the scene. Most important thing should be keeping interest and if the best teams like CLG and TSM went over to Korea to play at unwatchable hours only to get completely stomped there would be a big loss of interest. Yeah international tournaments are great, but you are dead fucking wrong if you think the scene would be better if LCS were gone and it were like the old days. It promotes amateur teams whereas a pure international scene would be like a majority of korean teams with only a few elite NA/EU teams and everyone else suffers. To draw a similar parallel, it's also no surprise that the foreign BW players that received the most notoriety, though I'd grant that part of it is due to them having certain personalities, were the players that ended up playing in Korea for a period of time, regardless of how well they did. Like Ret. Like Idra. Like Nony. If my BW knowledge wasn't so shit, I think there were two or three more, but anyway. Yes there are other fan favorites that people remember like White-Ra, like F91, etc. etc. etc, but the point is the same.
And at the end none of them had any notable results to show for it in BW. And that's because the Korean BW scene was literally the only one that mattered. Everything else was like... the level of some LAN tournament in someone's fucking basement.
|
On May 11 2014 01:51 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 01:45 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 11 2014 01:44 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Teams staying in NA is better for the scene. Most important thing should be keeping interest and if the best teams like CLG and TSM went over to Korea to play at unwatchable hours only to get completely stomped there would be a big loss of interest. Yeah international tournaments are great, but you are dead fucking wrong if you think the scene would be better if LCS were gone and it were like the old days. It promotes amateur teams whereas a pure international scene would be like a majority of korean teams with only a few elite NA/EU teams and everyone else suffers. No shit it's better for the scene that's not the argument that's being made here. Also, fans of BW would know, but nobody relevant gave a fuck that BW was dominated by Koreans. That's because people could put aside their national pride (thank fucking god) and enjoy the mastery that were the Starcraft Broodwar progamers. Oh yes, because watching events at 4 am should be what people have to do to keep up with a scene.
There's different ways to watch... you can always subscribe and get the vods or just watch the rebroadcasts.
|
On May 11 2014 01:55 TzaTzers wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 01:51 Itsmedudeman wrote:On May 11 2014 01:45 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 11 2014 01:44 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Teams staying in NA is better for the scene. Most important thing should be keeping interest and if the best teams like CLG and TSM went over to Korea to play at unwatchable hours only to get completely stomped there would be a big loss of interest. Yeah international tournaments are great, but you are dead fucking wrong if you think the scene would be better if LCS were gone and it were like the old days. It promotes amateur teams whereas a pure international scene would be like a majority of korean teams with only a few elite NA/EU teams and everyone else suffers. No shit it's better for the scene that's not the argument that's being made here. Also, fans of BW would know, but nobody relevant gave a fuck that BW was dominated by Koreans. That's because people could put aside their national pride (thank fucking god) and enjoy the mastery that were the Starcraft Broodwar progamers. Oh yes, because watching events at 4 am should be what people have to do to keep up with a scene. There's different ways to watch... you can always subscribe and get the vods or just watch the rebroadcasts.
Which is nothing like watching a live event. When people miss sporting events they usually just look at the results later on. There's absolutely no suspense when you know that it's already happened.
|
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On May 11 2014 01:45 AlterKot wrote:
From what I understand CLG regrets going to KR not because it made them worse but because it didn't make them much better and they lost money overall? Not to mention that TSM became more popular than them during their expedition.
Problem is that KR teams might not even want to scrim foreigners unless they qualify for Champions and prove they are worth their time. Also remember that to qualify for CS teams would have to get top20 on ranked ladder very fast, so that's a potential risk. Or the players could leave their team and go to KR unsponsored while 5 random guys play in LCS and then the org signs its previous roster just for playoffs.
CLG regrets going second time, when CLG.EU got OGN silver.
They lost all population in NA, TSM claimed undisputed #1, there were no results, Saint was dropped and then own3d contract shit occured and grim s3 days.
On May 11 2014 01:54 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 01:45 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 11 2014 01:44 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Teams staying in NA is better for the scene. Most important thing should be keeping interest and if the best teams like CLG and TSM went over to Korea to play at unwatchable hours only to get completely stomped there would be a big loss of interest. Yeah international tournaments are great, but you are dead fucking wrong if you think the scene would be better if LCS were gone and it were like the old days. It promotes amateur teams whereas a pure international scene would be like a majority of korean teams with only a few elite NA/EU teams and everyone else suffers. To draw a similar parallel, it's also no surprise that the foreign BW players that received the most notoriety, though I'd grant that part of it is due to them having certain personalities, were the players that ended up playing in Korea for a period of time, regardless of how well they did. Like Ret. Like Idra. Like Nony. If my BW knowledge wasn't so shit, I think there were two or three more, but anyway. Yes there are other fan favorites that people remember like White-Ra, like F91, etc. etc. etc, but the point is the same. And at the end none of them had any notable results to show for it in BW. And that's because the Korean BW scene was literally the only one that mattered. Everything else was like... the level of some LAN tournament in someone's fucking basement.
Well, we still have Grr.... or how many points are there.
|
The biggest thing is the shit tier analysts and coaches in NA/EU. Instead we've got "life coaches". Come on... really? Montecristo is the only good one and even then I'm sure he's worse than the top analysts/coaches on Korean teams who devote 100% of their time to their team and come up with innovative strategies every time a patch comes out.
|
Czech Republic11293 Posts
On May 11 2014 01:46 wei2coolman wrote:
Tsm is the fnatic of na. They both play so similarly. Too individual talent focus, weak macro strat. At least regi is serious about making tsm better though.
What does "too individual talent focus" even mean. I can't make the smallest bit of sense out of that phrase no matter how hard I try.
|
On May 11 2014 01:51 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 01:45 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 11 2014 01:44 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Teams staying in NA is better for the scene. Most important thing should be keeping interest and if the best teams like CLG and TSM went over to Korea to play at unwatchable hours only to get completely stomped there would be a big loss of interest. Yeah international tournaments are great, but you are dead fucking wrong if you think the scene would be better if LCS were gone and it were like the old days. It promotes amateur teams whereas a pure international scene would be like a majority of korean teams with only a few elite NA/EU teams and everyone else suffers. No shit it's better for the scene that's not the argument that's being made here. Also, fans of BW would know, but nobody relevant gave a fuck that BW was dominated by Koreans. That's because people could put aside their national pride (thank fucking god) and enjoy the mastery that were the Starcraft Broodwar progamers. Oh yes, because watching events at 4 am should be what people have to do to keep up with a scene.
Real strawman bro. That's still not the argument I was making, but you are free to sound salty if you want.
On May 11 2014 01:54 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 01:45 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 11 2014 01:44 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Teams staying in NA is better for the scene. Most important thing should be keeping interest and if the best teams like CLG and TSM went over to Korea to play at unwatchable hours only to get completely stomped there would be a big loss of interest. Yeah international tournaments are great, but you are dead fucking wrong if you think the scene would be better if LCS were gone and it were like the old days. It promotes amateur teams whereas a pure international scene would be like a majority of korean teams with only a few elite NA/EU teams and everyone else suffers. To draw a similar parallel, it's also no surprise that the foreign BW players that received the most notoriety, though I'd grant that part of it is due to them having certain personalities, were the players that ended up playing in Korea for a period of time, regardless of how well they did. Like Ret. Like Idra. Like Nony. If my BW knowledge wasn't so shit, I think there were two or three more, but anyway. Yes there are other fan favorites that people remember like White-Ra, like F91, etc. etc. etc, but the point is the same. And at the end none of them had any notable results to show for it in BW. And that's because the Korean BW scene was literally the only one that mattered. Everything else was like... the level of some LAN tournament in someone's fucking basement.
And...again you're completely missing the point. Nobody here is asking for an "international scene." They are merely expressing their frustration that teams that want to change over to other regions are not allowed to. Chinese teams come to NA. Korean teams have come over. We've imported Euro people. Why can't NA move out? That's a stupid double standard that's essentially only because it's a smart business decision by Riot.
Your entire point is also just asking for stagflation and inevitably will be further leading us down the current path, which is NA/EU brawl it out in the battle of the shits while the real regions come to Worlds every year, clean house, and stomp everybody without a single cry of resistance. That's boring, and EU/NA LCS is a train wreck as it is already. I want things to be better.
Edit: You also can't be serious that the biggest problem is coaches/analysts. Yes that is true, but the mechanical divide is also massive. Nobody in NA (maybe Bjergsen but he's euro import) has as dominating a reputation as Faker or Xiyang or Dade, or any other fantastic midlaner to come out of China/KR. Same thing with ADC. Sneaky? Doublelift? I like them, but they are far from it. Supports. Top Laners. Junglers. The outside world has them and they all do things better. This is not just a question of coaches and analysts. The mechanical divide is also immense.
When we remember retired players like Hotshot, Reginald, and now the Oddone, we remember them for their personalities and their influences on the scene. When we remember retired players like Misaya, we remember them because they were fucking gods.
I'd rather there be more opportunities for the other regions to be exposed, because it's obvious the best of NA/EU are not remotely close in challenging any teams of relevant ability in China/KR.
And no, I think even with Hai, OMG would have easily shit over Cloud 9.
|
On May 11 2014 02:00 Itsmedudeman wrote:
The biggest thing is the shit tier analysts and coaches in NA/EU. Instead we've got "life coaches". Come on... really? Montecristo is the only good one
I'm not necessarily disagreeing but we don't know that. I don't think it's a coincidence that the only coach/analyst with a soapbox is also regarded as the best
|
On May 11 2014 01:57 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 01:55 TzaTzers wrote:On May 11 2014 01:51 Itsmedudeman wrote:On May 11 2014 01:45 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 11 2014 01:44 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Teams staying in NA is better for the scene. Most important thing should be keeping interest and if the best teams like CLG and TSM went over to Korea to play at unwatchable hours only to get completely stomped there would be a big loss of interest. Yeah international tournaments are great, but you are dead fucking wrong if you think the scene would be better if LCS were gone and it were like the old days. It promotes amateur teams whereas a pure international scene would be like a majority of korean teams with only a few elite NA/EU teams and everyone else suffers. No shit it's better for the scene that's not the argument that's being made here. Also, fans of BW would know, but nobody relevant gave a fuck that BW was dominated by Koreans. That's because people could put aside their national pride (thank fucking god) and enjoy the mastery that were the Starcraft Broodwar progamers. Oh yes, because watching events at 4 am should be what people have to do to keep up with a scene. There's different ways to watch... you can always subscribe and get the vods or just watch the rebroadcasts. Which is nothing like watching a live event. When people miss sporting events they usually just look at the results later on. There's absolutely no suspense when you know that it's already happened.
You're talking about keeping up with a scene, there's ways to keep up with it if the viewing times are not working for you, whether it be watching the rebroadcasts or simply just learning the results. If you want to feel the excitement of watching it live then watch it live, even if it's at times that are stupid. People here have been doing that for years already, yes it sucks but it's worth it if you really want to have that experience. If a team were to go to Korea I'm sure foreigners would find ways to watch their games (live or rebroadcasts), the same thing happened when foreigners went to Korea in BW or when TL went to Korea to partner with oGs, people found ways and made sacrifices to watch and support their teams and players.
|
On May 11 2014 02:03 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 02:00 Itsmedudeman wrote:
The biggest thing is the shit tier analysts and coaches in NA/EU. Instead we've got "life coaches". Come on... really? Montecristo is the only good one I'm not necessarily disagreeing but we don't know that. I don't think it's a coincidence that the only coach/analyst with a soapbox is also regarded as the best
just posting to agree with this statement
|
On May 11 2014 02:06 TzaTzers wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 11 2014 01:57 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 01:55 TzaTzers wrote:On May 11 2014 01:51 Itsmedudeman wrote:On May 11 2014 01:45 Zergneedsfood wrote:On May 11 2014 01:44 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Teams staying in NA is better for the scene. Most important thing should be keeping interest and if the best teams like CLG and TSM went over to Korea to play at unwatchable hours only to get completely stomped there would be a big loss of interest. Yeah international tournaments are great, but you are dead fucking wrong if you think the scene would be better if LCS were gone and it were like the old days. It promotes amateur teams whereas a pure international scene would be like a majority of korean teams with only a few elite NA/EU teams and everyone else suffers. No shit it's better for the scene that's not the argument that's being made here. Also, fans of BW would know, but nobody relevant gave a fuck that BW was dominated by Koreans. That's because people could put aside their national pride (thank fucking god) and enjoy the mastery that were the Starcraft Broodwar progamers. Oh yes, because watching events at 4 am should be what people have to do to keep up with a scene. There's different ways to watch... you can always subscribe and get the vods or just watch the rebroadcasts. Which is nothing like watching a live event. When people miss sporting events they usually just look at the results later on. There's absolutely no suspense when you know that it's already happened. You're talking about keeping up with a scene, there's ways to keep up with it if the viewing times are not working for you, whether it be watching the rebroadcasts or simply just learning the results. If you want to feel the excitement of watching it live then watch it live, even if it's at times that are stupid. People here have been doing that for years already, yes it sucks but it's worth it if you really want to have that experience. If a team were to go to Korea I'm sure foreigners would find ways to watch their games (live or rebroadcasts), the same thing happened when foreigners went to Korea in BW or when TL went to Korea to partner with oGs, people found ways and made sacrifices to watch and support their teams and players.
Yes, the hardcore fans did. Contrary to BW and SC2, League of Legends has an actual audience in the West and it's only normal that Riot wants to take care about it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
