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Keep the rage to a minimum. This includes wait times between games, music, and balance.
Fair warning to all. |
On October 06 2012 13:40 BlackPaladin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 12:50 cLutZ wrote:On October 06 2012 12:42 kainzero wrote:On October 06 2012 12:28 Kiarip wrote:
I like this line of reasoning... I think NA gaming is bad because all our talented, motivated people go into business and entrepreneurship and end up making tons of money instead of playing video games. If you look at the most successful tech companies of the past few decades, microsoft, apple, IBM, they were all formed by Americans. NA gaming sucks because of all our good athletes play basketball and American football. In all honesty I wish the NA scene had a better way to promote arranged 5s. Right now it seems like your LoL e-peen is based on your solo Q and watching Worlds makes me wanna play arranged 5s but I don't know how or where to find a team. I doubt the talents related to Professional athletics translate much to pro gaming. The problem is that the NA scene probably hasn't identified the best players to put on teams and has not been able to arrange the best teams. Regi/Hotshot owning 2 of the top 3 teams is bad for the scene. Also, living in America costs much more than living in Korea/China. Progaming winning and salaries are not nearly as enticing here, so you lose a lot of people to "real life". Because the 1/1000 chance of being a progamer making 150k/year is not really that great compared to a 95% chance of making 70k. What jobs make 70k/year out of college? In the south it's 30k/year usually. In the north it's generally closer to 50k/year at start. Even cops in the north who make ridiculous salaries (average patrolman in my old town made 100k/year, chiefs made 150k) only start out at 30k as a basic patrolman for their first couple of years on the force.
doctors, lawyers and investment bankers.
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On October 06 2012 14:38 Killcani wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 14:15 GeorgeForeman wrote:
Well, I was sort of surprised how that went, and also sort of not. I mean, thus far the tournament has confirmed that TSM is clearly the best NA team but also that they're still a bit behind the top Korean teams. Its a shame these two had to face off so early. I feel there's 3 or 4 teams in the Ro8 that TSM could've taken games off of and/or beaten, but Frost just so good!
Chaox and Regi had really good games. Dyrus was pretty bad in game 1, pushing to tower (fine) but staying one wave too long without ward coverage. After that, it was a clear snowball against him. I also thought TOO did a poor job on Shyvanna; I mean, he was behind on CS and losing buffs to a Maokai. He camped top and bottom way too much that game given the relatively weak ganking power of Shyvanna. I guess he was trying for a countergank, but it never worked out. Frankly, I just don't think his mentality is right for Shyvanna.
Regi did a great job, though his call to engage on Vlad in game two was the turning point of the match. Funniest play was when Xpecial grabbed Taric in game two while Irelia and Skarner were trying to run down Graves. While this took Taric into tower range, it also brought him close enough to get a dazzle onto Graves, securing the kill. His pull of Vlad (to which Maokai was able to twisted advance to) secured a kill on Vlad and saved TOO was a nice way to make up for it, but if Graves had lived, TSM would've had a 4 on 2 for about 5 seconds unless Taric wanted to tank tow towers. Chaox was solid but unspectacular. He and Xpecial did a really good job of dominating the laning phase of Game 2, but it just wasn't enough.
T_T Wish they'd have these teams play more than two games. Either Double elim (Final = Bo5 with losers bracket winner down one game, because having two Bo3's is stupid) or at least placement games for 5-8th place... just something. Feels like a waste to gather all of these teams and play so few matches.
Edit:
After going back and reading the live comments, I'm astonished at the reactions. TSM played two pretty close games against one of the two best teams in this tournament. They were absolutely crushing the first one, and one disastrous teamfight turned it on its head. Its frankly a better result than any other NA or EU team outside of M5 has posted. Its two frickin games against possibly the best team in the world. Why is that a bad result or something to be ashamed of? The thing is by having it single elim they can do it in only 4 days and make it alot more exiciting and thats probably want they want.
That's ridiculous. MLG churns out way more in a tighter time frame. It's not like they have to broadcast every game. Making VODs from first-person perspective to be released later would be fine. There are very easy solutions to the time constraint thing, especially when you consider the size of the prize pool
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MLG is also notorious for their extremely poor production / organizational quality as a result.
They've also had tournies where they had many games not cast or not aired trying to cram so many in.
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TI2 ran more than twice the games per day on average with better production value, and the LoL group stages itself ran day1 with 12 games after starting an hour late (and doing so over 4 days would allow for double elimination)
admittedly doing so with the constraints of an outdoors venue could cause problems, but it was certainly doable
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Vancouver14381 Posts
On October 06 2012 15:18 GeorgeForeman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 14:38 Killcani wrote:On October 06 2012 14:15 GeorgeForeman wrote:
Well, I was sort of surprised how that went, and also sort of not. I mean, thus far the tournament has confirmed that TSM is clearly the best NA team but also that they're still a bit behind the top Korean teams. Its a shame these two had to face off so early. I feel there's 3 or 4 teams in the Ro8 that TSM could've taken games off of and/or beaten, but Frost just so good!
Chaox and Regi had really good games. Dyrus was pretty bad in game 1, pushing to tower (fine) but staying one wave too long without ward coverage. After that, it was a clear snowball against him. I also thought TOO did a poor job on Shyvanna; I mean, he was behind on CS and losing buffs to a Maokai. He camped top and bottom way too much that game given the relatively weak ganking power of Shyvanna. I guess he was trying for a countergank, but it never worked out. Frankly, I just don't think his mentality is right for Shyvanna.
Regi did a great job, though his call to engage on Vlad in game two was the turning point of the match. Funniest play was when Xpecial grabbed Taric in game two while Irelia and Skarner were trying to run down Graves. While this took Taric into tower range, it also brought him close enough to get a dazzle onto Graves, securing the kill. His pull of Vlad (to which Maokai was able to twisted advance to) secured a kill on Vlad and saved TOO was a nice way to make up for it, but if Graves had lived, TSM would've had a 4 on 2 for about 5 seconds unless Taric wanted to tank tow towers. Chaox was solid but unspectacular. He and Xpecial did a really good job of dominating the laning phase of Game 2, but it just wasn't enough.
T_T Wish they'd have these teams play more than two games. Either Double elim (Final = Bo5 with losers bracket winner down one game, because having two Bo3's is stupid) or at least placement games for 5-8th place... just something. Feels like a waste to gather all of these teams and play so few matches.
Edit:
After going back and reading the live comments, I'm astonished at the reactions. TSM played two pretty close games against one of the two best teams in this tournament. They were absolutely crushing the first one, and one disastrous teamfight turned it on its head. Its frankly a better result than any other NA or EU team outside of M5 has posted. Its two frickin games against possibly the best team in the world. Why is that a bad result or something to be ashamed of? The thing is by having it single elim they can do it in only 4 days and make it alot more exiciting and thats probably want they want. That's ridiculous. MLG churns out way more in a tighter time frame. It's not like they have to broadcast every game. Making VODs from first-person perspective to be released later would be fine. There are very easy solutions to the time constraint thing, especially when you consider the size of the prize pool
For that same reason, you can't just put a game on a side stage and say that's fine. It is the biggest tournament of the year and Riot wants to showcase every team and game to the stream and the live viewers. By having multiple streams, it punishes the live audience since they can't switch back and forth between the games.
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All I can say is thank god for Deman/Jatt.
I hope that they will cast the finals, or at least both duos cast the finals ala MLG Red/Blue stream.
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On October 06 2012 12:03 1ntrigue wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 11:08 Azarkon wrote:On October 06 2012 11:07 kainzero wrote:
well this sucks. i wanted NA to get a win. NA and China both look to be at the lower end of the LoL competitive spectrum. For NA, I think I have a decent grasp on what's the issue because it's an issue that affects all games NA players play. For China I have no idea except that their best MOBA players aren't in LoL. What the hell? You're underrating China massively in LoL. China is definitely not as dominant in LoL as they are in DotA (probably because of the casual gamer culture around LoL in China compared to Korea and Chinese DotA) but they are way above NA. China is definitely above NA and is likely above EU in LoL overall. M5 and CLG.eu are extremely, extremely good EU teams - statistical outliers perhaps. Anyway, I personally count Taiwan, Hong Kong and Macau as being part of the Chinese scene in the same way that NA (USA, Canada, Australia, NZ), EU, SEA all lumps several culturally similar countries together. Each of the current top Chinese teams have problems with their playstyle though. WE lacks a cohesive game plan and probably needs a jungle shotcaller, but has arguably the two best carry players in the world and the best teamfight execution in the world. iG has always been kinda funky and lacking a bread and butter playstyle, but they are extremely versatile. TPA has the smartest pro jungler and probably the best jungler in the world but lacks a professional practice regimen. All of the Chinese teams lack the fully professional environment that the Korean teams have. Currently, Frost and Blaze play like machines and their preparation is BW-esque, and no team outside Korea can compete with that in an extended series.
As I said before, I don't follow LoL, but I know enough about it to remember that there was only one win from a Chinese team in a major international tournament and that's WE in one of the tournaments in China. I also see that people aren't rating WE to be the favorites vs. CLG.eu, which tells me that there are at the minimum two EU teams that >= the two best Chinese teams. Watching them today, IG got smashed by M5 rather hard.
Less there are a bunch of better Chinese teams hiding that I'm not aware of, it's hard to argue that they aren't below EU and Korea. I've also checked out the last few matches between Chinese teams and NA teams and while IG has done quite well there, WE has lost a bunch to NA teams ranked around 15-100th. What's the excuse for that?
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On October 06 2012 12:26 Kupon3ss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 12:03 1ntrigue wrote:On October 06 2012 11:08 Azarkon wrote:On October 06 2012 11:07 kainzero wrote:
well this sucks. i wanted NA to get a win. NA and China both look to be at the lower end of the LoL competitive spectrum. For NA, I think I have a decent grasp on what's the issue because it's an issue that affects all games NA players play. For China I have no idea except that their best MOBA players aren't in LoL. What the hell? You're underrating China massively in LoL. China is definitely not as dominant in LoL as they are in DotA (probably because of the casual gamer culture around LoL in China compared to Korea and Chinese DotA) but they are way above NA. China is definitely above NA and is likely above EU in LoL overall. M5 and CLG.eu are extremely, extremely good EU teams - statistical outliers perhaps. Anyway, I personally count Taiwan, Hong Kong and Macau as being part of the Chinese scene in the same way that NA (USA, Canada, Australia, NZ), EU, SEA all lumps several culturally similar countries together. Each of the current top Chinese teams have problems with their playstyle though. WE lacks a cohesive game plan and probably needs a jungle shotcaller, but has arguably the two best carry players in the world and the best teamfight execution in the world. iG has always been kinda funky and lacking a bread and butter playstyle, but they are extremely versatile. TPA has the smartest pro jungler and probably the best jungler in the world but lacks a professional practice regimen. All of the Chinese teams lack the fully professional environment that the Korean teams have. Currently, Frost and Blaze play like machines and their preparation is BW-esque, and no team outside Korea can compete with that in an extended series. Don't mind him, he's the same guy who posted at length before the DotA International that the EU/NA scene is equal to strength to the Chinese one and stands by that in his clouded delusions The Chinese scene is quite unstable and does have the problem of having most of its talent needing to filter down from the DotA scene as well as the only 2 good teams (WE and iG) to periodically shuffle due to poor immediate results, resulting in the 2 teams dominating the scene while not always being amazing themselves. However at the moment the gap between the Chinese and Korean Scene is not very big, the Chinese are perhaps flashier and often stronger in lane and the early game but sometimes lack the consistency of the very best teams in the world. They go back and forth with the koreans in online events are sometimes show flashes of brilliance, in a lot of ways their play is quite akin to the SEA scene in DotA (high individual skill, mediocre team coordination, prone to throw) M5 seems to play a completely different game to everybody else that I hesitate to even associate them with the European scene, (perhaps due to their relative isolation) they approach the game differently and simply "picks imba champions". Their individual skill is top notch but not superlative (shown by the games vs iG today and various European teams earlier) but their understanding of the game seems rather next level to me. The team comp in Game one vs iG, for example, was quite beautiful and elegant once analyzed.
So what you're saying is, there are two Chinese teams way above the rest of the Chinese teams, and one of them just lost 0-2 to M5, while the other from what I see lost to a bunch of mid-tier NA teams in the IPL Face Offs... That makes me wrong how?
You hesitate to label M5 an European team when in practice their position - alongside CLG.eu - within Europe is no different from what you described for WE and IG to be relative to other Chinese teams. Is it that hard to accept that the top teams in Europe are the top teams in Europe and aren't just 'outliers' that don't matter to the rest of the scene? These sorts of games never have a dozen tier 1 teams playing at the same level - there's always 1-2 teams in each scene that stand above the rest and when push comes to shove they're going to be the ones each region counts on to take home the trophy.
I'm man enough to say that NA sucks when our teams lose, but it feels that you're just setting up for what you worry is going to be a M5 victory with the whole 'I hesitate to even associate them with the European scene' line, even though in the case that Azubu Frost / WE / TPA won I believe you have no issue with declaring Asians own white dudes.
That's the sort of hypocrisy I despise in eSports, where every victory of Asian teams / players over Western teams / players is used to fuel the 'Asian gamers are superior' stereotype and every vicfory of Western teams / players over Asian teams / players is dismissed for an 'outlier' / 'fluke' that doesn't show a thing.
It's a sad display and needs to stop.
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I'm sad my Pokemon reference about NA being bad at games went unnoticed.
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i think WE will beat CLG EU tomorrow if they can show their good form. they haven't been on form in a while, but look at TPA son.
either way hoping for the first 2-1 semis this tourney.
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On October 06 2012 16:37 VashTS wrote:
I'm sad my Pokemon reference about NA being bad at games went unnoticed.
I giggled at it when I read it before ^^
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On October 06 2012 16:13 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 12:26 Kupon3ss wrote:On October 06 2012 12:03 1ntrigue wrote:On October 06 2012 11:08 Azarkon wrote:On October 06 2012 11:07 kainzero wrote:
well this sucks. i wanted NA to get a win. NA and China both look to be at the lower end of the LoL competitive spectrum. For NA, I think I have a decent grasp on what's the issue because it's an issue that affects all games NA players play. For China I have no idea except that their best MOBA players aren't in LoL. What the hell? You're underrating China massively in LoL. China is definitely not as dominant in LoL as they are in DotA (probably because of the casual gamer culture around LoL in China compared to Korea and Chinese DotA) but they are way above NA. China is definitely above NA and is likely above EU in LoL overall. M5 and CLG.eu are extremely, extremely good EU teams - statistical outliers perhaps. Anyway, I personally count Taiwan, Hong Kong and Macau as being part of the Chinese scene in the same way that NA (USA, Canada, Australia, NZ), EU, SEA all lumps several culturally similar countries together. Each of the current top Chinese teams have problems with their playstyle though. WE lacks a cohesive game plan and probably needs a jungle shotcaller, but has arguably the two best carry players in the world and the best teamfight execution in the world. iG has always been kinda funky and lacking a bread and butter playstyle, but they are extremely versatile. TPA has the smartest pro jungler and probably the best jungler in the world but lacks a professional practice regimen. All of the Chinese teams lack the fully professional environment that the Korean teams have. Currently, Frost and Blaze play like machines and their preparation is BW-esque, and no team outside Korea can compete with that in an extended series. Don't mind him, he's the same guy who posted at length before the DotA International that the EU/NA scene is equal to strength to the Chinese one and stands by that in his clouded delusions The Chinese scene is quite unstable and does have the problem of having most of its talent needing to filter down from the DotA scene as well as the only 2 good teams (WE and iG) to periodically shuffle due to poor immediate results, resulting in the 2 teams dominating the scene while not always being amazing themselves. However at the moment the gap between the Chinese and Korean Scene is not very big, the Chinese are perhaps flashier and often stronger in lane and the early game but sometimes lack the consistency of the very best teams in the world. They go back and forth with the koreans in online events are sometimes show flashes of brilliance, in a lot of ways their play is quite akin to the SEA scene in DotA (high individual skill, mediocre team coordination, prone to throw) M5 seems to play a completely different game to everybody else that I hesitate to even associate them with the European scene, (perhaps due to their relative isolation) they approach the game differently and simply "picks imba champions". Their individual skill is top notch but not superlative (shown by the games vs iG today and various European teams earlier) but their understanding of the game seems rather next level to me. The team comp in Game one vs iG, for example, was quite beautiful and elegant once analyzed. So what you're saying is, there are two Chinese teams way above the rest of the Chinese teams, and one of them just lost 0-2 to M5, while the other from what I see lost to a bunch of mid-tier NA teams in the IPL Face Offs... That makes me wrong how? You hesitate to label M5 an European team when in practice their position - alongside CLG.eu - within Europe is no different from what you described for WE and IG to be relative to other Chinese teams. Is it that hard to accept that the top teams in Europe are the top teams in Europe and aren't just 'outliers' that don't matter to the rest of the scene? These sorts of games never have a dozen tier 1 teams playing at the same level - there's always 1-2 teams in each scene that stand above the rest and when push comes to shove they're going to be the ones each region counts on to take home the trophy. I'm man enough to say that NA sucks when our teams lose, but it feels that you're just setting up for what you worry is going to be a M5 victory with the whole 'I hesitate to even associate them with the European scene' line, even though in the case that Azubu Frost / WE / TPA won I believe you have no issue with declaring Asians own white dudes.
I don't know if you're actually trying to troll or you really believe what you write, but I actually remember you being the guy who said that LoL wasn't that big in China compared to DotA, so I'm going to take whatever you say with a massive chunk of salt.
You admitted that you don't follow LoL that closely so maybe you actually should be more acquainted with the scenes before you make blanket statements like "China is terrible at LoL" or "China is on equal level with NA in LoL". On one hand, WE definitely played like shit in the IPL Face Offs and the recent OGN, while iG and TPA has played terribly in every OGN online invitational in the last couple months, so you may actually be right. On the other hand, it's stupid and obnoxious to make such a blanket statement before WE has even played a match at the World Championships, and when TPA is still going strong. In any case, iG beat CLG.na and SK (i.e. China > NA and China>EU by your logic) before losing to M5. If a rational thinker were to make such a blanket statement, he or she must surely have to wait until all the Chinese teams have been eliminated (whereas, one can already conclude NA is below the rest since all three NA teams were beaten convincingly).
I call M5 and CLG.eu outliers because they are far, far above the rest of EU. If you follow the LoL scene, you could pretty much rank NA/EU like this: M5 >= CLG.eu > TSM> rest of NA > rest of EU.
The world ranking would be something like this: Frost = Blaze >= M5 >= CLG.eu >= TPA >= WE >= Korea = TSM (> rest of China IMO) > rest of NA > rest of EU
So, logically do you take M5 and CLG.eu as your EU basis of comparison or a balance with the rest of EU?
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On October 06 2012 15:18 GeorgeForeman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 14:38 Killcani wrote:On October 06 2012 14:15 GeorgeForeman wrote:
Well, I was sort of surprised how that went, and also sort of not. I mean, thus far the tournament has confirmed that TSM is clearly the best NA team but also that they're still a bit behind the top Korean teams. Its a shame these two had to face off so early. I feel there's 3 or 4 teams in the Ro8 that TSM could've taken games off of and/or beaten, but Frost just so good!
Chaox and Regi had really good games. Dyrus was pretty bad in game 1, pushing to tower (fine) but staying one wave too long without ward coverage. After that, it was a clear snowball against him. I also thought TOO did a poor job on Shyvanna; I mean, he was behind on CS and losing buffs to a Maokai. He camped top and bottom way too much that game given the relatively weak ganking power of Shyvanna. I guess he was trying for a countergank, but it never worked out. Frankly, I just don't think his mentality is right for Shyvanna.
Regi did a great job, though his call to engage on Vlad in game two was the turning point of the match. Funniest play was when Xpecial grabbed Taric in game two while Irelia and Skarner were trying to run down Graves. While this took Taric into tower range, it also brought him close enough to get a dazzle onto Graves, securing the kill. His pull of Vlad (to which Maokai was able to twisted advance to) secured a kill on Vlad and saved TOO was a nice way to make up for it, but if Graves had lived, TSM would've had a 4 on 2 for about 5 seconds unless Taric wanted to tank tow towers. Chaox was solid but unspectacular. He and Xpecial did a really good job of dominating the laning phase of Game 2, but it just wasn't enough.
T_T Wish they'd have these teams play more than two games. Either Double elim (Final = Bo5 with losers bracket winner down one game, because having two Bo3's is stupid) or at least placement games for 5-8th place... just something. Feels like a waste to gather all of these teams and play so few matches.
Edit:
After going back and reading the live comments, I'm astonished at the reactions. TSM played two pretty close games against one of the two best teams in this tournament. They were absolutely crushing the first one, and one disastrous teamfight turned it on its head. Its frankly a better result than any other NA or EU team outside of M5 has posted. Its two frickin games against possibly the best team in the world. Why is that a bad result or something to be ashamed of? The thing is by having it single elim they can do it in only 4 days and make it alot more exiciting and thats probably want they want. That's ridiculous. MLG churns out way more in a tighter time frame. It's not like they have to broadcast every game. Making VODs from first-person perspective to be released later would be fine. There are very easy solutions to the time constraint thing, especially when you consider the size of the prize pool
Having Best of 1s in groupstages is fine, and best of 3s in quarter finals is also fine. No need for double elim, play big or go home, they've been given enough chances to win.
Double Elim is also terrible for the finals, have to take player stamina into account.
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On October 06 2012 13:24 elementz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 13:16 Jaksiel wrote:On October 06 2012 12:50 cLutZ wrote:On October 06 2012 12:42 kainzero wrote:On October 06 2012 12:28 Kiarip wrote:
I like this line of reasoning... I think NA gaming is bad because all our talented, motivated people go into business and entrepreneurship and end up making tons of money instead of playing video games. If you look at the most successful tech companies of the past few decades, microsoft, apple, IBM, they were all formed by Americans. NA gaming sucks because of all our good athletes play basketball and American football. In all honesty I wish the NA scene had a better way to promote arranged 5s. Right now it seems like your LoL e-peen is based on your solo Q and watching Worlds makes me wanna play arranged 5s but I don't know how or where to find a team. I doubt the talents related to Professional athletics translate much to pro gaming. The problem is that the NA scene probably hasn't identified the best players to put on teams and has not been able to arrange the best teams. Regi/Hotshot owning 2 of the top 3 teams is bad for the scene. Also, living in America costs much more than living in Korea/China. Progaming winning and salaries are not nearly as enticing here, so you lose a lot of people to "real life". Because the 1/1000 chance of being a progamer making 150k/year is not really that great compared to a 95% chance of making 70k. Where can I sign up for this 95% chance of making 70k? Agreed the 70k from 4 year is a bit much, mostly 50k, but still a better chance, the reason why S3 is a good thing, the gamble is a lot lesser, and the money is somewhat there, bringing the competitive teams to 8 from 2/3 per region will be cool.
Well. #1. The major LoL teams live in CA and NY, two of the most expensive (and well paying) states. There are plenty of 4 year degrees that will pay you well. Electrical Engineering for instance.
#2. S3 is giving the already established teams a really great way to make a living, and is probably going to help out other teams that can break in. The problem I tried to identify is this: Take a kid who just turned 18 and is really good at LoL (Dota SC, etc). Maybe he is a top .5% player, in high school. He is a good student as well, got accepted to the major state school (I'm from Illinois so lets just say University of Illinois). Which path does he choose? The one to U of I or does he try to support himself doing something and hope to get on a team, and then hope that team ends up being good enough to place in some S3 events?
In the United States Elite Progaming salaries are not so substantially higher than normal entry level salaries for well educated persons. And its not like these gamers are not smart. It is impossible to be stupid and be high-level. Some guys like Dyrus and Lift don't really have the motivation outside of LoL, but they are hard workers and really try to learn the game. On the other hand, in China, if your team wins $1 million, you actually are going to live large and be able to bank something.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 06 2012 16:13 Azarkon wrote:
So what you're saying is, there are two Chinese teams way above the rest of the Chinese teams, and one of them just lost 0-2 to M5, while the other from what I see lost to a bunch of mid-tier NA teams in the IPL Face Offs... That makes me wrong how?
Pretty much any time WE or IG has faced a US team, it has been with the 200+ ping disadvantage of playing on Riot's NA servers. There have been a few exceptions to this (such as WE's IPL Face Off, which occured just before their roster change).
Given the vast difference in IG DotA's online and offline performance, you of all people should know how much that ping difference matters.
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On October 06 2012 16:13 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 12:26 Kupon3ss wrote:On October 06 2012 12:03 1ntrigue wrote:On October 06 2012 11:08 Azarkon wrote:On October 06 2012 11:07 kainzero wrote:
well this sucks. i wanted NA to get a win. NA and China both look to be at the lower end of the LoL competitive spectrum. For NA, I think I have a decent grasp on what's the issue because it's an issue that affects all games NA players play. For China I have no idea except that their best MOBA players aren't in LoL. What the hell? You're underrating China massively in LoL. China is definitely not as dominant in LoL as they are in DotA (probably because of the casual gamer culture around LoL in China compared to Korea and Chinese DotA) but they are way above NA. China is definitely above NA and is likely above EU in LoL overall. M5 and CLG.eu are extremely, extremely good EU teams - statistical outliers perhaps. Anyway, I personally count Taiwan, Hong Kong and Macau as being part of the Chinese scene in the same way that NA (USA, Canada, Australia, NZ), EU, SEA all lumps several culturally similar countries together. Each of the current top Chinese teams have problems with their playstyle though. WE lacks a cohesive game plan and probably needs a jungle shotcaller, but has arguably the two best carry players in the world and the best teamfight execution in the world. iG has always been kinda funky and lacking a bread and butter playstyle, but they are extremely versatile. TPA has the smartest pro jungler and probably the best jungler in the world but lacks a professional practice regimen. All of the Chinese teams lack the fully professional environment that the Korean teams have. Currently, Frost and Blaze play like machines and their preparation is BW-esque, and no team outside Korea can compete with that in an extended series. Don't mind him, he's the same guy who posted at length before the DotA International that the EU/NA scene is equal to strength to the Chinese one and stands by that in his clouded delusions The Chinese scene is quite unstable and does have the problem of having most of its talent needing to filter down from the DotA scene as well as the only 2 good teams (WE and iG) to periodically shuffle due to poor immediate results, resulting in the 2 teams dominating the scene while not always being amazing themselves. However at the moment the gap between the Chinese and Korean Scene is not very big, the Chinese are perhaps flashier and often stronger in lane and the early game but sometimes lack the consistency of the very best teams in the world. They go back and forth with the koreans in online events are sometimes show flashes of brilliance, in a lot of ways their play is quite akin to the SEA scene in DotA (high individual skill, mediocre team coordination, prone to throw) M5 seems to play a completely different game to everybody else that I hesitate to even associate them with the European scene, (perhaps due to their relative isolation) they approach the game differently and simply "picks imba champions". Their individual skill is top notch but not superlative (shown by the games vs iG today and various European teams earlier) but their understanding of the game seems rather next level to me. The team comp in Game one vs iG, for example, was quite beautiful and elegant once analyzed. So what you're saying is, there are two Chinese teams way above the rest of the Chinese teams, and one of them just lost 0-2 to M5, while the other from what I see lost to a bunch of mid-tier NA teams in the IPL Face Offs... That makes me wrong how? You hesitate to label M5 an European team when in practice their position - alongside CLG.eu - within Europe is no different from what you described for WE and IG to be relative to other Chinese teams. Is it that hard to accept that the top teams in Europe are the top teams in Europe and aren't just 'outliers' that don't matter to the rest of the scene? These sorts of games never have a dozen tier 1 teams playing at the same level - there's always 1-2 teams in each scene that stand above the rest and when push comes to shove they're going to be the ones each region counts on to take home the trophy. I'm man enough to say that NA sucks when our teams lose, but it feels that you're just setting up for what you worry is going to be a M5 victory with the whole 'I hesitate to even associate them with the European scene' line, even though in the case that Azubu Frost / WE / TPA won I believe you have no issue with declaring Asians own white dudes. That's the sort of hypocrisy I despise in eSports, where every victory of Asian teams / players over Western teams / players is used to fuel the 'Asian gamers are superior' stereotype and every vicfory of Western teams / players over Asian teams / players is dismissed for an 'outlier' / 'fluke' that doesn't show a thing. It's a sad display and needs to stop.
I'm hesitant to associate m5 wit the EU scene because they dont play remotely the same style as the rest of EU and, as I've stated, see the game far differently than any other team. Its that same reason I wouldn't say, consider the Saigon jokers part of the Chinese Scene, or China part of the Korean scene, even though they're closer to each other in terms of
distance on a map than m5 is to the rest of European teams.
We've already established, here, in BW, in SC2 and in DotA; that Asians own white dudes overall, nobody has ever disagreed with the undeniable fact that m5 looks to be one of the strongest teams in the world, a label that I wouldn't give any other NA/EU team. Have you admitted that NA sucks at DotA yet? You recall Chinese teams losing to nonames at 4 am in the morning in China in IPL, but do u remember the 2-0 they gave clg.na shortly before that?
There are standout teams in a scene yes, but when one team is so far above the rest of the team in the scene in terms of skill as the case of Na'Vi in DotA, M5 in LoL, or Stephano in SC2, you can't take their best performance as an indicator as to you good the scene is in comparison to others.
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On October 06 2012 14:49 Cubu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 13:40 BlackPaladin wrote:On October 06 2012 12:50 cLutZ wrote:On October 06 2012 12:42 kainzero wrote:On October 06 2012 12:28 Kiarip wrote:
I like this line of reasoning... I think NA gaming is bad because all our talented, motivated people go into business and entrepreneurship and end up making tons of money instead of playing video games. If you look at the most successful tech companies of the past few decades, microsoft, apple, IBM, they were all formed by Americans. NA gaming sucks because of all our good athletes play basketball and American football. In all honesty I wish the NA scene had a better way to promote arranged 5s. Right now it seems like your LoL e-peen is based on your solo Q and watching Worlds makes me wanna play arranged 5s but I don't know how or where to find a team. I doubt the talents related to Professional athletics translate much to pro gaming. The problem is that the NA scene probably hasn't identified the best players to put on teams and has not been able to arrange the best teams. Regi/Hotshot owning 2 of the top 3 teams is bad for the scene. Also, living in America costs much more than living in Korea/China. Progaming winning and salaries are not nearly as enticing here, so you lose a lot of people to "real life". Because the 1/1000 chance of being a progamer making 150k/year is not really that great compared to a 95% chance of making 70k. What jobs make 70k/year out of college? In the south it's 30k/year usually. In the north it's generally closer to 50k/year at start. Even cops in the north who make ridiculous salaries (average patrolman in my old town made 100k/year, chiefs made 150k) only start out at 30k as a basic patrolman for their first couple of years on the force. doctors, lawyers and investment bankers.
Post-undergrad engineers at Microsoft start at 90k 
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United States47024 Posts
The Azarkon-Kupon face-off continues.
Cheep/1ntrigue I probably should have warned you not to get involved in this.
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how do you guys have such intricate knowledge of how pro teams play
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On October 06 2012 16:13 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 12:26 Kupon3ss wrote:On October 06 2012 12:03 1ntrigue wrote:On October 06 2012 11:08 Azarkon wrote:On October 06 2012 11:07 kainzero wrote:
well this sucks. i wanted NA to get a win. NA and China both look to be at the lower end of the LoL competitive spectrum. For NA, I think I have a decent grasp on what's the issue because it's an issue that affects all games NA players play. For China I have no idea except that their best MOBA players aren't in LoL. What the hell? You're underrating China massively in LoL. China is definitely not as dominant in LoL as they are in DotA (probably because of the casual gamer culture around LoL in China compared to Korea and Chinese DotA) but they are way above NA. China is definitely above NA and is likely above EU in LoL overall. M5 and CLG.eu are extremely, extremely good EU teams - statistical outliers perhaps. Anyway, I personally count Taiwan, Hong Kong and Macau as being part of the Chinese scene in the same way that NA (USA, Canada, Australia, NZ), EU, SEA all lumps several culturally similar countries together. Each of the current top Chinese teams have problems with their playstyle though. WE lacks a cohesive game plan and probably needs a jungle shotcaller, but has arguably the two best carry players in the world and the best teamfight execution in the world. iG has always been kinda funky and lacking a bread and butter playstyle, but they are extremely versatile. TPA has the smartest pro jungler and probably the best jungler in the world but lacks a professional practice regimen. All of the Chinese teams lack the fully professional environment that the Korean teams have. Currently, Frost and Blaze play like machines and their preparation is BW-esque, and no team outside Korea can compete with that in an extended series. Don't mind him, he's the same guy who posted at length before the DotA International that the EU/NA scene is equal to strength to the Chinese one and stands by that in his clouded delusions The Chinese scene is quite unstable and does have the problem of having most of its talent needing to filter down from the DotA scene as well as the only 2 good teams (WE and iG) to periodically shuffle due to poor immediate results, resulting in the 2 teams dominating the scene while not always being amazing themselves. However at the moment the gap between the Chinese and Korean Scene is not very big, the Chinese are perhaps flashier and often stronger in lane and the early game but sometimes lack the consistency of the very best teams in the world. They go back and forth with the koreans in online events are sometimes show flashes of brilliance, in a lot of ways their play is quite akin to the SEA scene in DotA (high individual skill, mediocre team coordination, prone to throw) M5 seems to play a completely different game to everybody else that I hesitate to even associate them with the European scene, (perhaps due to their relative isolation) they approach the game differently and simply "picks imba champions". Their individual skill is top notch but not superlative (shown by the games vs iG today and various European teams earlier) but their understanding of the game seems rather next level to me. The team comp in Game one vs iG, for example, was quite beautiful and elegant once analyzed. So what you're saying is, there are two Chinese teams way above the rest of the Chinese teams, and one of them just lost 0-2 to M5, while the other from what I see lost to a bunch of mid-tier NA teams in the IPL Face Offs... That makes me wrong how? You hesitate to label M5 an European team when in practice their position - alongside CLG.eu - within Europe is no different from what you described for WE and IG to be relative to other Chinese teams. Is it that hard to accept that the top teams in Europe are the top teams in Europe and aren't just 'outliers' that don't matter to the rest of the scene? These sorts of games never have a dozen tier 1 teams playing at the same level - there's always 1-2 teams in each scene that stand above the rest and when push comes to shove they're going to be the ones each region counts on to take home the trophy. I'm man enough to say that NA sucks when our teams lose, but it feels that you're just setting up for what you worry is going to be a M5 victory with the whole 'I hesitate to even associate them with the European scene' line, even though in the case that Azubu Frost / WE / TPA won I believe you have no issue with declaring Asians own white dudes. That's the sort of hypocrisy I despise in eSports, where every victory of Asian teams / players over Western teams / players is used to fuel the 'Asian gamers are superior' stereotype and every vicfory of Western teams / players over Asian teams / players is dismissed for an 'outlier' / 'fluke' that doesn't show a thing. It's a sad display and needs to stop.
Koreans own white dudes...deal with it homie
User was warned for this post
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EPT
