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At any point of IEM Season 6 Championship, if you think of an interesting byline, please drop a sentence in the Pro Scene thread. At the end of the month, I'll catalogue the results of Hannover but also any interesting facts or events that happen over the course of the tournament. Thanks. Neo, 06.03.2012 |
On March 11 2012 01:37 Lylat wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 01:27 red_ wrote:On March 11 2012 01:26 Shikyo wrote:On March 11 2012 01:24 snow2.0 wrote:On March 11 2012 01:22 SuperStyle wrote:On March 11 2012 01:20 Doctorbeat wrote:On March 11 2012 01:20 SuperStyle wrote:
Voyboy ? the fuck ? He got roflstomped against M5... NA bias is NA bias. Voting started yesterday when Voyboy's Lee play excited everyone. Diamond's lee >> Voyboy's by far. Didn't see him making any big plays. Only overrunning people with a numerical advantage or same number fights with the previously established advantage. There wasn't anything flashy. Damnit, their alistar made a bigger play than lee... Am I the only one who values solid, stable and consistent over flashy? How is Voy not solid, stable and consistent? He was the best top player throughout the entire tourney. Really ? He got crushed by Darien in the finals.
He was objectively beating Irelia top in game 1 as Naut, until the game outside of his control got out of hand(he started losing the lane at the tower dive+LS gank from his own blue).
Game 2 he lost a bad matchup, something that happened to m5 players in individual games that they happened to win because as a team they played fantastic(For example: Genja was probably the MVP for m5 of the CLG series).
Voyboy was Dignitas's most important player consistently through the entire tourney, m5 players lose 'votes' because they are seen more as a collective group that works together. You see this in professional sports all the time(unless there is just no standout player to vote for in which case the mvp goes to 'best player on best team').
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On March 11 2012 01:31 emucxg wrote:
M5 has zero fanbase in NA and EU... probably only russians voted for them
Didn't stop Diamondprox from winning MVP at Kiev.
The timing of MVP votes (as they were voted yesterday) is just unfortunate timing, Voyboy basically carried dignitas through to the finals with his superb toplane and that is what most of the votes were based on.
If say the votes were done after the finals, an M5 player would have probably won.
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On March 11 2012 01:42 Bwaaaa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 01:37 Lylat wrote:On March 11 2012 01:27 red_ wrote:On March 11 2012 01:26 Shikyo wrote:On March 11 2012 01:24 snow2.0 wrote:On March 11 2012 01:22 SuperStyle wrote:On March 11 2012 01:20 Doctorbeat wrote:On March 11 2012 01:20 SuperStyle wrote:
Voyboy ? the fuck ? He got roflstomped against M5... NA bias is NA bias. Voting started yesterday when Voyboy's Lee play excited everyone. Diamond's lee >> Voyboy's by far. Didn't see him making any big plays. Only overrunning people with a numerical advantage or same number fights with the previously established advantage. There wasn't anything flashy. Damnit, their alistar made a bigger play than lee... Am I the only one who values solid, stable and consistent over flashy? How is Voy not solid, stable and consistent? He was the best top player throughout the entire tourney. Really ? He got crushed by Darien in the finals. He got crushed by shen in the finals, game 1 voy was laning well vs darien until his team crumpled and the snowball crushed him.
He was way less active then Darien in that game, keeping up in last hits is not all that matters.
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I think for Dignitas to be a contender against M5 and other top teams they've gotta improve on a few points. First, scarra needs to learn not to go for every CS. Overextending and trying to get all the farm he can makes him a huge threat and leads to him out CSing his lane frequently but more times than not it ends with him just getting ganked and while he still keeps his CS even with his opposing mid because of this style he feeds kills to the enemy jungle or enemy mid making his CS advantage negligible. Dominate has to just improve on jungler in general. I can cut him some slack because he's still pretty new to pro jungling. Finally, qtpie has to get some more diversity on AD carries. He's just so predictable. He's going to run Corki every time if you let him and M5 showed that not only will they let him get Corki but they'll pick lanes that punish his Corki. Then in the off chance you don't let him get Corki he'll pick up Ezreal. Predictability isn't a good thing in LoL no matter how good you are on Corki/Ez.
aAa needs to figure out how to play against NA teams. They seem pretty strong against teams like M5 or CLGeu but they just fail so hard whenever I see them play NA teams.
CLGna has to work on their mistakes. They're the only team at a LAN so far that won early game against M5. Twice. But they just made super poor decisions, had awful team fights, and numerous other mistakes that threw their early game lead down the toilet. Maybe when they all start living together in Korea they can improve on these problems.
CLGeu seems really strong from what games I've watched. If it translates to LAN play I think they're just as strong as M5 is.
The thing that all of the aforementioned teams need to do in order to compete with M5 is be just as consistent as them and drive the flow of the game the way that M5 does. If you let M5 control the game they're going to stomp and so many teams this entire tournament just let M5 play exactly how they want to.
Also, the Korean and Chinese teams should be considered as future contenders with M5. They all practice just as much as the EU teams do, if not more. Their scenes are really really young yet they've already had impressive accomplishments so far. Sure, the only Chinese team at this event didn't make it out of group stage but if you've ever seen MiG or Maknoon's team or watched IEM Guangzhou I think it's obvious that in the future Chinese and Korean teams will be strong future threats.
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Going back to the picks and bans for all 9 matches they played, M5 has banned Cass EVERY SINGLE ONE of them (first or second ban). Does anyone know why? Is Alex afraid of her with Ryze? Does she counter the counterjungling too hard because of wraith stealing? I've been really impressed with M5 picking and banning, so I want to understand this part.
For completeness, Dignitas, CLG or aAa have not banned Cass consistently for example.
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They're the only team at a LAN so far that won early game against M5.
Actually Curse won v M5 early game, then they derped so hard and lost too many teamfights.
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On March 11 2012 01:45 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 01:37 Lylat wrote:On March 11 2012 01:27 red_ wrote:On March 11 2012 01:26 Shikyo wrote:On March 11 2012 01:24 snow2.0 wrote:On March 11 2012 01:22 SuperStyle wrote:On March 11 2012 01:20 Doctorbeat wrote:On March 11 2012 01:20 SuperStyle wrote:
Voyboy ? the fuck ? He got roflstomped against M5... NA bias is NA bias. Voting started yesterday when Voyboy's Lee play excited everyone. Diamond's lee >> Voyboy's by far. Didn't see him making any big plays. Only overrunning people with a numerical advantage or same number fights with the previously established advantage. There wasn't anything flashy. Damnit, their alistar made a bigger play than lee... Am I the only one who values solid, stable and consistent over flashy? How is Voy not solid, stable and consistent? He was the best top player throughout the entire tourney. Really ? He got crushed by Darien in the finals. He was objectively beating Irelia top in game 1 as Naut, until the game outside of his control got out of hand(he started losing the lane at the tower dive+LS gank from his own blue). Game 2 he lost a bad matchup, something that happened to m5 players in individual games that they happened to win because as a team they played fantastic(For example: Genja was probably the MVP for m5 of the CLG series). Voyboy was Dignitas's most important player consistently through the entire tourney, m5 players lose 'votes' because they are seen more as a collective group that works together. You see this in professional sports all the time(unless there is just no standout player to vote for in which case the mvp goes to 'best player on best team'). Objectively you don't beat Irelia top if you go even with them, you need to be significantly ahead in minions or get kills or else it is Irelia who is winning. That lane went even at best, but guess what?
The game's not solely about laning.
Also, you basically think it's the player's fault that their team doesn't suck? For some reason I'm not understanding this logic.
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Voyboy MVP... Thanks god he wasn't outplayed in final.
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On March 11 2012 01:47 Condor wrote:
Going back to the picks and bans for all 9 matches they played, M5 has banned Cass EVERY SINGLE ONE of them (first or second ban). Does anyone know why? Is Alex afraid of her with Ryze? Does she counter the counterjungling too hard because of wraith stealing? I've been really impressed with M5 picking and banning, so I want to understand this part.
For completeness, Dignitas, CLG or aAa have not banned Cass consistently for example.
They don't like playing against Cass and Alex doesn't play Cass so they ban her even if the other team doesn't have a Cass player.
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Going back to the picks and bans for all 9 matches they played, M5 has banned Cass EVERY SINGLE ONE of them (first or second ban). Does anyone know why? Is Alex afraid of her with Ryze? Does she counter the counterjungling too hard because of wraith stealing? I've been really impressed with M5 picking and banning, so I want to understand this part.
Cassio is one of the APs Alex Ich cannot play and it shits on so many of his champions (morde, ryse). Watching them pre-Kings of Europe and post-Kings of Europe in scrims is very interesting. Cassio has basically been a ban every time after KoE. I think Froggen shat on him too hard with Cassio lol.
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On March 11 2012 01:49 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 01:45 red_ wrote:On March 11 2012 01:37 Lylat wrote:On March 11 2012 01:27 red_ wrote:On March 11 2012 01:26 Shikyo wrote:On March 11 2012 01:24 snow2.0 wrote:On March 11 2012 01:22 SuperStyle wrote:On March 11 2012 01:20 Doctorbeat wrote:On March 11 2012 01:20 SuperStyle wrote:
Voyboy ? the fuck ? He got roflstomped against M5... NA bias is NA bias. Voting started yesterday when Voyboy's Lee play excited everyone. Diamond's lee >> Voyboy's by far. Didn't see him making any big plays. Only overrunning people with a numerical advantage or same number fights with the previously established advantage. There wasn't anything flashy. Damnit, their alistar made a bigger play than lee... Am I the only one who values solid, stable and consistent over flashy? How is Voy not solid, stable and consistent? He was the best top player throughout the entire tourney. Really ? He got crushed by Darien in the finals. He was objectively beating Irelia top in game 1 as Naut, until the game outside of his control got out of hand(he started losing the lane at the tower dive+LS gank from his own blue). Game 2 he lost a bad matchup, something that happened to m5 players in individual games that they happened to win because as a team they played fantastic(For example: Genja was probably the MVP for m5 of the CLG series). Voyboy was Dignitas's most important player consistently through the entire tourney, m5 players lose 'votes' because they are seen more as a collective group that works together. You see this in professional sports all the time(unless there is just no standout player to vote for in which case the mvp goes to 'best player on best team'). Objectively you don't beat Irelia top if you go even with them, you need to be significantly ahead in minions or get kills or else it is Irelia who is winning. That lane went even at best, but guess what? The game's not solely about laning. Also, you basically think it's the player's fault that their team doesn't suck? For some reason I'm not understanding this logic.
You're putting words in my mouth. Where did I say 'fault.' It's nobodies fault, but psychologically people 'penalize' players when it comes to things like 'most valuable player' if they are on a team with other good players. It's why Lebron didn't win MVP of the regular season last year despite having better statistics in every category than Derrick Rose: the Bulls were 'Rose+4 guys' and Miami was 'The Big Three.'
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This thread was so entertaining and pleasant to read until the finals.
All of the shit talkers and people inciting flame wars come out of the woodwork to watch the last series?
Voyboy won a popularity contest for his day 3 play. It's no big deal. Enjoy the games.
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Vancouver14381 Posts
On March 11 2012 01:50 Mahuff wrote:
Voyboy MVP... Thanks god he wasn't outplayed in final.
This has been an issue since the first IEM with LoL. The voting period ends before the start of the finals so their performance in the finals do not reflect on the MVP award.
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So I took a sauna after and collected my thoughts and then dispersed them again, but here's some ranting
First off some people have suggested you simply outban Diamond from the jungle. This isn't possible. Can you outban SV from jungle? No, he plays too many too well. You can't do it with 3 bans + 1st pick. You can ban lee, shyv,GP, he has at least udyr and noc to pick just from recent popular junglers. You 1st pick udyr coz it makes more sense and then he has noc. M5 might then complement it with ashe, shen or TF, terror ganks.
So what if you had more than 3 bans, let's say 4 or 5? Well you still couldn't, no more you could SV. But then I got to thinking what's the ramification for 4 ban (let alone 5ban) system and the biggest thing that dawned for me was bot lane, more specifically, supports.
imagine: ban taric, sona, janna, alistair. 1st pick leona. Uh oh. they'd have soraka and nunu left from what is nowadays considered as support. I don't see either of them faring well against a leona kill lane. Can't really increase ban # untill we have more champions viable for 0 cs support. Or maybe I'm wrong and the game would shift to banning out strong supports and some unconventional ones would have to crop up to counter it. Could Lux, Orianna, even Morgana get a go at being viable?
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I'm not really arguing about people psychologically doing that but I'm arguing that it wasn't justified, I don't really care what made the people make the wrong choice but the fact that it was in my opinion wrong. And it's their fault because they don't in your opinion deserve the award despite playing better because their team is better - this is logic
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On March 11 2012 01:51 dooraven wrote:
I think Froggen shat on him too hard with Cassio lol.
DIS FROG
On March 11 2012 01:53 JonnyLaw wrote:
All of the shit talkers and people inciting flame wars come out of the woodwork to watch the last series?
That discussion about viewer numbers was hella annoying. Obviously, sc2 fansies came trolling in LoL subforum after MC vs Puma was finished.
Edit: @daemir
I think that given the number of champions today, competent players can play a bunch very well. Then having only 3 bans cannot lock down anyone and as very little influence on the game imo. It's just used to avoid OP chars (and that shouldn't happen if Riot did it's job a little better) and the ones you don't like to play against.
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On March 11 2012 01:56 Shikyo wrote:
I'm not really arguing about people psychologically doing that but I'm arguing that it wasn't justified, I don't really care what made the people make the wrong choice but the fact that it was in my opinion wrong. And it's their fault because they don't in your opinion deserve the award despite playing better because their team is better - this is logic
That was never my explanation why they didn't 'deserve' it. It was a reply/rebuttal to people responding to my initial defense of Voyboy receiving it. I think they don't deserve it because Voyboy played the most outstanding overall tourney, finals included. m5's excellence was more spread out, Voyboy was just consistently the dominating force of dignitas, and in their loss he was clearly still their superior player who handled himself well. When you combine this with the time the voting opened(which could be a debate of its own, I'm not sure why they can't just run a 10 minute break of interviews and whatnot while voting happens post finals only), you have a recipe for him receiving the MVP award that he is, IMO, completely deserving of.
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I can't say I watch too much LoL but I know a little and watched most of the weekend. I don't really get why people are raging so much about the MVP award. The MVP of the tournament doesn't have to be in the finals or do well in the finals since it's the whole tournament. I assume what people are angry about is that some M5 guys did well throughout tournament and did well in finals so they feel that person deserves it more.
I guess at the end of the day it's meant to be for fun and we shouldn't put too much weight on it.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 11 2012 01:54 daemir wrote:
So I took a sauna after and collected my thoughts and then dispersed them again, but here's some ranting
First off some people have suggested you simply outban Diamond from the jungle. This isn't possible. Can you outban SV from jungle? No, he plays too many too well. You can't do it with 3 bans + 1st pick. You can ban lee, shyv,GP, he has at least udyr and noc to pick just from recent popular junglers. You 1st pick udyr coz it makes more sense and then he has noc. M5 might then complement it with ashe, shen or TF, terror ganks.
So what if you had more than 3 bans, let's say 4 or 5? Well you still couldn't, no more you could SV. But then I got to thinking what's the ramification for 4 ban (let alone 5ban) system and the biggest thing that dawned for me was bot lane, more specifically, supports.
imagine: ban taric, sona, janna, alistair. 1st pick leona. Uh oh. they'd have soraka and nunu left from what is nowadays considered as support. I don't see either of them faring well against a leona kill lane. Can't really increase ban # untill we have more champions viable for 0 cs support. Or maybe I'm wrong and the game would shift to banning out strong supports and some unconventional ones would have to crop up to counter it. Could Lux, Orianna, even Morgana get a go at being viable?
If they added 4th or 5th ban, then they should be added as a 2nd ban phase.
There are enough bans in the first 3 to ban the "OP" champs or someone's favorite champ. The problem is that during the first ban phase, nobody is actually committed to any team comp or champion selection. So it's hard to ban "strategically" because what can you do when nobody is actually committed to anything? Second ban phase after, say, the first 3 picks on each team allows you to prevent the enemy from making picks based on what you know about their teamcomp from their early picks, without disrupting your own picks.
Practically speaking, if we got to the point where people were actually good at more of the champs in the roles they played (and not just like 3-4 champs like most top laners), then the first ban phase would actually be fairly boring--it's the second ban phase that's actually interesting.
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On March 11 2012 02:01 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2012 01:54 daemir wrote:
So I took a sauna after and collected my thoughts and then dispersed them again, but here's some ranting
First off some people have suggested you simply outban Diamond from the jungle. This isn't possible. Can you outban SV from jungle? No, he plays too many too well. You can't do it with 3 bans + 1st pick. You can ban lee, shyv,GP, he has at least udyr and noc to pick just from recent popular junglers. You 1st pick udyr coz it makes more sense and then he has noc. M5 might then complement it with ashe, shen or TF, terror ganks.
So what if you had more than 3 bans, let's say 4 or 5? Well you still couldn't, no more you could SV. But then I got to thinking what's the ramification for 4 ban (let alone 5ban) system and the biggest thing that dawned for me was bot lane, more specifically, supports.
imagine: ban taric, sona, janna, alistair. 1st pick leona. Uh oh. they'd have soraka and nunu left from what is nowadays considered as support. I don't see either of them faring well against a leona kill lane. Can't really increase ban # untill we have more champions viable for 0 cs support. Or maybe I'm wrong and the game would shift to banning out strong supports and some unconventional ones would have to crop up to counter it. Could Lux, Orianna, even Morgana get a go at being viable? If they added 4th or 5th ban, then they should be added as a 2nd ban phase. There are enough bans in the first 3 to ban the "OP" champs or someone's favorite champ. The problem is that during the first ban phase, nobody is actually committed to any team comp or champion selection. So it's hard to ban "strategically" because what can you do when nobody is actually committed to anything? Second ban phase after, say, the first 3 picks on each team allows you to prevent the enemy from making picks based on what you know about their teamcomp from their early picks, without disrupting your own picks. Practically speaking, if we got to the point where people were actually good at more of the champs in the roles they played (and not just like 3-4 champs like most top laners), then the first ban phase would actually be fairly boring--it's the second ban phase that's actually interesting.
I think 3-3 ban phase, 3-3 pick phase, 2-2 ban, 2-2 pick would work fine in LoL at the professional level. But in casual play that would mean you'd need to have 20 champions available to you in order to play draft or ranked. They could always just have like "tournament draft" and "regular draft" though.
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EPT
