EPTIve built morello+athene -> dcap in the past and I always felt too weak in the mid game, but I always just attributed it to my lack of experience.
[Champion] Lux, the Lady of Luminosity - Page 2
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Micromnky
United States262 Posts
Ive built morello+athene -> dcap in the past and I always felt too weak in the mid game, but I always just attributed it to my lack of experience. | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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dae
Canada1600 Posts
On January 23 2014 08:48 Ketara wrote: If you had like, a jungle Karthus who you know is going to need all the blue buffs, Morello+Athene might not be a bad option. If you're ever going to be getting blue buffs I think Morello+Athene is just far, far too much regen and overcaps your CDR. I know Dae used to build that way in some games and he's our resident Diamond 1 Lux player, we could ask him what he thinks about it. Also worth noting that Morello+Athene will prevent you from hitting the mid game timing of Athene+Deathcap which allows you to one shot caster minions with E and roam more. If you go Morello+Athene you're basically saying I'm never going to roam and that will be made up for by my jungler taking blue. I used to go tear/morellos/athenes before ult nerf so that I could literally ult farm every wave. This no longer works, so the build is really bad now. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Basically what you're trading it for is Archmage, and 5% bonus AP is not all that amazing. However I do think it's better than more movespeed, and all together I think 5% AP is better than 20% buff duration and 1% movespeed. There are lanes where I'd value the movespeed very highly, like vs. Nidalee, but those are typically lanes where you don't need to have blue buff to farm so the buff duration is less important. Further, the lanes where you need to have blue buff to farm you're typically going 21/9/0 anyway. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
If you're using all your abilities on cooldown in a fight, you're using 48.5 mana per second at level 18. With just an Athenes and you regen 10.32 mana per second. This increases up to 100% as your mana goes down, so on average it's actually going to be 50% higher than that, at 15.48 mana per second. Basically, you're losing 33.02 mana per second. You have 1150 max mana, so this means that with no creep deaths and no player deaths you can continue spamming every spell on cooldown for 35 seconds. Fights just don't last that long, so more mana is really overkill. | ||
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Micromnky
United States262 Posts
On January 23 2014 11:14 Ketara wrote: Here's a little math on Morello + Athene: If you're using all your abilities on cooldown in a fight, you're using 48.5 mana per second at level 18. With just an Athenes and you regen 10.32 mana per second. This increases up to 100% as your mana goes down, so on average it's actually going to be 50% higher than that, at 15.48 mana per second. Basically, you're losing 33.02 mana per second. You have 1150 max mana, so this means that with no creep deaths and no player deaths you can continue spamming every spell on cooldown for 35 seconds. Fights just don't last that long, so more mana is really overkill. From what I've heard, Morello is still a good pickup vs. the big tanks that are popular right now, right? So if you have to deal with a Mundo/Shyv/Renek, picking it up 5/6 item wouldnt be a bad idea? Or is there a better item for that, as the CDR and mana regen would be wasted? | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
It's really only a serious issue if nobody on the team has ignite. Somebody should be igniting them. | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Lux's passive is coded as a spell, not as an on hit effect. What this means is that, lets say you do a typical early game harassment combo of Q, dropping an E, autoing, detonating the E, then autoing again. Your initial Q gives you one stack of blade weaving and increases autoattack damage by 1%. The following autoattack increases spell damage by 1%, which counts towards your passive's damage immediately since it's a spell. The passive damage then gives you a second stack of blade weaving, so now your autoattack damage is up to +2%. You then detonate the E, which has +1% damage and gives you a third stack of blade weaving. The second autoattack has +3% damage and the second passive proc has +2% damage. At level 2, this increases your Q-auto-E-auto combo damage from 345 to 349. So basically an overall 1.1% increase in your damage. For two mastery points that's really kind of amazing, especially since if the trade goes on any longer than that you get +3% damage to your autoattacks. The other issue here is that Feast is also amazing. 6.3 minions spawn every 30 seconds, meaning that if your CS is perfect Feast gives you 2.52 HP and 1.26 mana every 5 seconds. This is nearly 4x as cost efficient as the regen masteries in Defense and Utility. Even if you only get 50% CS it's more than cost efficient enough to pay the price of taking Butcher, which isn't all that bad a mastery. CDR masteries are really kind of awful, especially on Lux who is gated by mana early in the game rather than by her cooldowns. More CDR means more mana consumption, making level 1 CDR bad on a champion that runs out of mana quickly. While 5% CDR is useful in the mid game, since you're getting 40% CDR with your item build anyway, the masteries become pointless later on. If I could trade the 2 CDR masteries you're required to get for two more points in Butcher I would, that's how bad they are. Realistically I don't like mastery points that are not useful at all stages of the game. CDR masteries on Lux are both not useful early game and not useful late game. | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
You should be getting at least 5-10 autoattacks on the enemy champion before your first back, unless they're actually somebody with stronger autos than you like Teemo. If they're Melee it should be twice that many. The only 550 ranged champions in the game with higher base AD are Ryze, Malzahar, Brand, Ziggs and Syndra, by less than 2. Basically that means that in any matchup if you hit them with a spell early you should walk up and trade autos. You should also always be getting enough CS to make Feast worth it. If you're getting less than 50% of each creep wave you have problems that aren't related to masteries. Also, do note that blue buff isn't 40% CDR anymore, it's only 10% now. | ||
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Micromnky
United States262 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
I sometimes don't pick it up against Khazix. Khazix is pretty wimpy early game. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On top of this, Lux has so little AP scaling in comparison to her base damage(especially early when she relies more on passive procs) that it makes absolutely no sense to not get haunting guise and go Mpen heavy. Basically, why not Double Dorans into Sorc+Guise into Deathcap(if you need to clear)/Void (if you need to clear champions) Double Dorans+ Guise costs 2285 Gold provides 320 HP, 8 MP/Minion(equivalent to 8 MP/5 if you get a full wave), 6 MP/5, 55 AP, and 15 Mpen. Athenes provides 60 AP, 40 MR, 15 MP/5, 20% CDR and the Athenes passive for 2600 gold. Assume for a second you've got base MR only and the enemy has 30 total Mpen. So that the Athenes MR bonus has maximum value. If you take 100% of your damage from magic damage sources then Athenes is better defensively than Double Doran's + Guise at level 6. But if you take near any proportion of that from physical damage, have other sources of MR, or the enemy doesn't have 30 Mpen then you're better off with the HP from the Guise path until far into the mid to lategame. So basically: Pros: Double Dorans + Guise has a better build path than Athenes because its individual items are stronger. Double Dorans + Guise provides similar(but not quite as strong) mana characteristics to Athenes when killing creeps Double Dorans + Guise does more damage than Athenes: Additionally the damage is up front rather than requiring a fight to go on for longer than a single combo. Double Dorans + Guise gets to its critical point faster because its cheaper. Double Dorans + Guise has better synergy with the upcoming Void Staff purchase due to the power of stacked penetration. Cons: Less ability to spam in siege/poke wars if/because you're not able to last hit creeps No CDR means fewer ults (even if they are commensurately more powerful and sooner) | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Lets say you're in the mid game, you're level 9. You're using one rank 5 E every 10 seconds, either to harass the enemy champion, farm creeps, do wraiths, etc. You're using 13 mana per second with that setup. You regen 4.08 mana per second, and if you get 100% CS, your two rings gives you another 1.68. Ultimately, you are losing 7.24 mana per second. You want to save enough mana for a Q, a W and an R, so your available mana pool for harassing and farming is 480. This means you are running out of mana every 66 seconds, and have to go back to base every other creep wave. Getting an Athenes means you run out of mana every 118 seconds. Defensively, Lux scales better with resistances than she does with HP, because you have the highest base value non ultimate shield in the game, and barrier. So the MR on Chalice is more valuable than the HP on guise. Finally, CDR is what lets you do things like solo blue buff, do wraith camps, farm while behind (if you're being zoned you have to do 2 E's per creep wave which requires minimum 20% CDR.), etc. Going Chalice also has a stronger early game, because the Flask opening is better than Dorans Ring on Lux, which I've already ranted about in the guide. Chalice is probably stronger than double Dorans for the same reason. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
At most you need 1 rank 5 E to clear caster minions. You don't use skills as/if you roam so you use 2 rank 5 E's to clear a wave at most and then roam and regain mana or you use 1 and and just use less mana. The CDR is nice for soloing blue buff but eh, i've never had an issue with it. Edit: If you only use 2 E's every 30 seconds then you run out of mana to do your full combo in ~164 seconds. Which is long enough to get blue buff again. | ||
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Big-t
Austria1351 Posts
My mate is mainly playing Caitlin or hybrid Teemo, sometimes Ashe. Edit: I know Op says max W first, but I think the slow is very powerful especially since Teemo has no stun/slow and I think my slow stacks with Ashe´s slow. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
You're going to use one E on every creep wave, and it is going to be the same number of autos after the E to kill minions regardless, so the question is how many you're going to use to harass the enemy mid. Lets say with a double dorans guise build you use 1.5 E's per 30 seconds to harass the enemy mid. With this setup you use 10.8 mana per second, so you're losing 5.04 mana per second. This keeps you in lane for 95 seconds before running out of mana. With 2x dorans, a guise and standard runes/masteries, 1.5 rank 5 E's will do 622.5 damage. Lets say the target has 70 MR, which is normal for that stage of the game. So with the added Mpen, the final damage is 485.55. With an Athenes, 2 rank 5 E's will do 838.54 damage. Counting Mpen we're now at 578.59. So, ultimately, even if Athenes gave 0 CDR, it would outdamage double Dorans + Guise by almost 20%, while simultaneously giving more mana regen even if you hit 100% of your spells and got 100% CS with the double Dorans, which is unrealistic for a typical game. It also gives better defensive statistics. Making sense yet? | ||
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