EPTSo I feel like the 21 offense allows me to win the lane better which allows me to get more gold. That's my logic anyway. I did the first 5 games this morning going 9/0/21 and then changed to 21/0/9 and it felt a LOT better.
[Champion] Lux, the Lady of Luminosity - Page 13
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
So I feel like the 21 offense allows me to win the lane better which allows me to get more gold. That's my logic anyway. I did the first 5 games this morning going 9/0/21 and then changed to 21/0/9 and it felt a LOT better. | ||
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MCMilo
United States365 Posts
Regardless, 10% CDR differential is still quite big. Frost Queen's Claim + Morellonomicon is a combined 4200(!!!) gold where Talisman + Mikael is a measly 3600 gold for the same total Cooldown Reduction. There are ZERO advantages of Frost Queen + Morellonomicon over Talisman + Mikael. That's too much to sacrifice. Two godly actives vs one shitty active and 100 AP (oh and a cutesy little Grieving Wounds debuff on someone)? Yeah. Sure. As I've said before, try fitting in a few mana regen glyphs to round up your mana regen. It dosen't matter how "inefficient" those glyphs are if 12 MR isn't going to be super important for your laning ability. Think about this: How different would a laning situation be against an AD + Support botlane if i traded 4-5 MR for that extra bit of mana regen? If you're caught you're fucked because there's nothing you can do about it, especially when you neglect ANY defensive mastery. Lux doesn't NEED to be different from other supports to be effective. Of course, going Talisman + Mikael isn't as great as going Talisman + Mikael on other standard support Champions. However, there's no doubt that these two items are highly valuable on ANY Champion that can survive the laning phase as a support. You only think about how to propel yourself into a higher role than what you originally picked for. You picked support Lux so you better fucking play support Lux. Yes, there can be a bind lategame that can win you the game. Yes, with high enough AP support Lux can contribute to teamfights with that extra burst. BUT you sacrifice your team's necessities in order to make yourself a semi-carry Lux from a 5th position (support) Lux. Mejai's doesn't hurt your team, it hurts YOU. If you play bad, you get the consequences for being bad. If you buy high-end AP items and neglect your entire team, your TEAM is going to suffer for your item choices. Even if you play your fucking mind out, when the enemy support has these necessities and your team doesn't, good fucking luck trying to win if they are semi-not-terrible at using Talisman + Mikael. Only reason there are spurts of success with this "support" Lux you advocate is because you go against shit players who play shitty in lane and then can't play out mid game well enough to take advantage of your poor item choices. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
#1 - Talisman and Mikael is 20% CDR, Frost Queen's Claim and Morellonomicon is 30%. #2 - There is actually quite a lot of defense in the first 9 points of utility. I went with 21/0/9 because I did the math and found it gave more defense than 21/6/3 (I decided that the 3 mana regen was absolutely mandatory.) #3 - I never said support Lux was a good pick, or really advocated for it at all. I'm not sure why you're coming at me with such venom. I'm just testing the new item. Armor reds is an interesting idea, will try that. | ||
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MCMilo
United States365 Posts
I personally think if you really really want the mana regen you should sacrifice your offensive capability rather than going ahead with the 21 offense. There is simply no real benefit of going all the way into Havoc, which you're essentially dumping 3-4 extra mediocre points, which can be fit into more defensive masteries. Strength of Spirit is a poor skill point (just dump that on Summoner Cooldown). Biscuits are fine. There is no conceivable way a support can play against decent enough players without at least 9 points to get Veteran's Scars + Juggernaut. Something like 0-15-15 can work well. New item sux. it's like the only person that can actually use it without getting punished heavily is Karma. so.... gl I apologize for toxic. However, this sentence really got me angry when evaluating items. "I got to full build in my second game, had 2nd most gold on the team and 3rd most damage dealt, did more damage than our Ahri mid (kinda sad?). It felt pretty strong once it got going but initial lane still felt suspect." What was the impact of Frost Queen that might have gotten you a lead somewhere? When did NOT buying Talisman hurt you? When did Frost Queen active help you? Would Talisman active have been better (they ARE the same cooldown)? How well does Frost Queen transition me into such and such items? These are the critical questions are need answering when you're going to test an item. An overall evaluation after game thinking "oh yeahhh 2nd most gold on team Frost Queen too good mannnn" does not cut it. | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
As far as the raw stats go they're fairly similar. HP regen and gold I think is fairly unimportant later in the game, so we're talking 10 MP5 and 20% CDR vs. 10 MP5, 10% CDR, 40 AP and some extra damage with the Tribute procs. The reason why they're similar is because in both cases you're going to be maxing out your CDR with your other items in a similar amount of gold. The issue is that the active on Talisman is just better. The Frost Queen active is a lot better in this patch than it was in the previous patch (a LOT better), but I think it still needs to be better to compete with the Talisman active. What the Frost Queen line gives you is a stronger laning phase. I've done about 50 Lux support games at this point, about 40 before I made the guide and another 10 today post patch. I did about half of the first set of games with the old spellthief and about half with the old Talisman. What I've found on support Lux is that, if you can make it to late game and get levels and items, she becomes a really good support. Her shield and peeling capability becomes just as strong as it is if you played her mid. The problem with support Lux is that her laning phase is atrocious. She does not do any damage. Her shield isn't as good as having a heal like Sona or Nami, her snare is harder to land in a duo lane than Zyra's because she can't walk up to the enemy duo aggressively to snare like she can in a 1v1 and she can't snare through minions like Zyra can. She has some good kill threat at 6 but only if she lands a snare AND your ADC can follow up. Even before this patch Spellthief was better for her laning than Coin. The reason why is because Lux can actually very easily do damage in lane without taking damage just by throwing E out a lot. But you can't max E because you aren't rushing Athenes so you don't have the regen to support that, and rank 1 E doesn't do much damage past level 4 or so. So having an item that increases her damage makes her laning better than an item that increases her HP regen by the same amount. The new Spellthief increases her damage by a LOT more than the old Spellthief, and makes her laning a LOT better, while simultaneously giving a LOT more gold than it did before. And now that Frost Queen has been buffed considerably and Talisman has been nerfed slightly, it's worth looking at going the Spellthief line just to not automatically lose laning phase. Realistically, you could go Frost Queen + Locket + Mikhael, I'll test that too. I just wanted to test AP items first. Strength of Spirit is a completely overpowered skill point by the way. It is roughly equal point for point to Perserverence after its first nerf and before the second, even if you don't get any mana items. If you could put 3 points in Strength of Spirit it would need to be nerfed hard. The numbers: For Lux Strength of Spirit gives 1HP/5 at level 1, and 3.83 HP/5 at level 18. 1 point in the current Perserverence gives her a mean of 0.7 HP/5 at level 1, and 2.9 HP/5 at level 18. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Lux's mana costs even with just rank 1 E mean it's difficult for her to do this throughout an extended laning phase without going oom and making her duo vulnerable, so the mana regen masteries are mandatory if you're going spellthief. If you're going coin, they're still pretty good but not necessarily mandatory. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/mastery-tree-planner#&tree1=0-0-4-0-1-0-3-0-0-0-1-3-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0&tree2=2-2-0-0-1-3-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0&tree3=0-1-3-0-2-1-1-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0&v=2 | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Another possibility would be to open Spellthief and get Frostfang in order to win laning, and then sell Frostfang for Talisman. This would ultimately cost 519 extra gold. Frostfang gives 14 GP10 if used to maximum efficiency, and the Coin line gives 8.3 GP10. So you'd need to hold the item for about 15 minutes to make the added cost of this endeavor actually a net zero. You probably do hold it for about 10 minutes laning, so the cost difference is likely very small. This actually seems like a really good idea to me. | ||
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Ethelis
United States2396 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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Ethelis
United States2396 Posts
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scrubtastic
1166 Posts
let's try to work with it though have you considered going at least 13 utility for the +35 starting gold (14 utility for the +1 gold per kill by ally)? You can then start something like spellthief + ward + 2 pots tree could be 9/7/14 | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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dae
Canada1600 Posts
http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/mastery-tree-planner#&tree1=1-0-3-0-1-3-3-0-1-1-1-3-1-0-0-0-0-3-0-1&tree2=0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0&tree3=0-3-2-0-3-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0&v=2 Runing hybrid pen, armor blues/yellows, ap or ms quints. If I were greedy I would probably just go standard ap 21/0/9 with the lategame ap masteries, running magic pen/armor/ap/level and ap quints, without all the ad in offense. General idea is to abuse higher ms and decent attack animation to get aa harass in on their adc when they go for last hits, or to auto the other support out of late. Shield makes for very effecient trades, and if you get ahead catching with a q forces a fight. Its reliant on dodging pretty much every hard engage on you though. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
I like it in the solo lane, but in a 2v2 you're adding 1.5% damage to one champ, but taking 1.5% more from two champs. ATM I'm thinking 21/0/9 is a good page if you're running against a more passive duo lane, but against more common aggressive lanes I'm looking at 9/7/14 or 12/9/9. Come duo with me Dae, I need an Ezreal. | ||
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dae
Canada1600 Posts
On March 01 2014 01:05 Ketara wrote: I'm not too thrilled on double edged sword in the duo lane. I like it in the solo lane, but in a 2v2 you're adding 1.5% damage to one champ, but taking 1.5% more from two champs. ATM I'm thinking 21/0/9 is a good page if you're running against a more passive duo lane, but against more common aggressive lanes I'm looking at 9/7/14 or 12/9/9. Come duo with me Dae, I need an Ezreal. Maybe in like 7 hours or so. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Masteries: 16/0/14 offensive, 9/7/14 standard, 5/11/14 defensive. Opening items: Spellthief + 2 pots + ward or Spellthief + 4 pots opener. Runes: Hybrid pen / Armor / MR / AP offensive, Armor / Armor / MR / AP defensive. Core item build: Frostfang, Sightstone, Mpen boots and a Faerie Charm. (2945g) After that you decide to either: A - Keep going AP. Finish Frost Queens Claim, turn Faerie Charm into Morellos. (3155g) B - Switch to utility. Sell Frostfang for Talisman, turn Faerie Charm into Mikaels. (3074g) Final two items can be some combination of: AP - Morello, Liandry, Void Utility - Mikael, Locket, Twin Shadows If you go Frost Queen then late game you'll eventually sell it for a Deathcap or Zhonya. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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