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On July 23 2013 10:35 Arisen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2013 09:37 GhandiEAGLE wrote: Honestly, playing Lee Sin helps so much. It teaches you a lot about ganking and jungle fights. Maybe that's just me though. I suck dick with leesin. I always end up super low HP in the jungle my first clear and feel like I can't gank. When I do go to gank, I can get kills, but I usually end up dying in the process. I'm much more successful ganking with shyvana than lee
Lee ganks took a while for me to learn. My first jungler was nocturne, which basically shares the same ganks as shyv.
1. Walk up to them if you can. If you can't walk to them, W in to your ally or a minion 2. Hit E-aa-aa-E if you can afford to. If not, do EQE or EQ-aa-E 3. Save 2nd Q for when they're out of range of skills and autos or after they flash. 4. If you have R, use it to kick them back or into a wall (careful not to kick them over a wall).
-Don't Q in unless you have no choice/other person will die in 1 combo. -Always wait for the best possible moment to gank. Dont force if not necessary. -If you have to force it, don't expect a kill.
Dont try to fight trundle, udyr, olaf, nunu, or xin without help or if you have way more hp than they do. You beat/catch everyone else.
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I think it's important to understand what your major goals are as a jungler when you go into a game. There are a lot of different ways to do it. You may be trying to develop certain skills or understanding and not simply trying to maximize your win % over that particular game. You may want to take previous advice and try ganking non-stop to build up the experience. You will fail a lot, but you'll learn a lot. You may want to try the opposite approach and not focusing on ganks as the way in which you make the biggest impact on a game. You might even try just warding lanes, farming well, pushing a lane and taking a tower when the opportunity presents itself. Maybe you want to become a split pusher when the laning phase breaks down. Maybe you want to own their jungle as well as yours as a means of control and focus on dragons/baron/buffs. Maybe you want to carry and tax lanes to supplement. There are so many different ways to do it I think those are the most important questions to be asking because it's more about "when and when not to gank" vs "how to gank." The mechanics of a successful gank are generally pretty simple. You put your opponent in a situation where they're outnumbered to force a kill and/or pressure in a way they are not expecting or prepared for. The way in which you come in and execute a gank are pure mechanics and only achieved by doing it a lot -- kind of like learning to cs as an ad carry. The decisions when and where to gank are where a jungler pays the bills, and it's up to you to figure out what works best for you because I guarantee that nobody in a game will give you good advice on the matter.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On July 23 2013 09:33 BlasiuS wrote:Not sure what your ELO is, but let's start with some basics: Ganking 101- Only gank lanes that are pushed up towards your team's towers
I almost never gank lanes pushed to my team's tower if I don't know where the enemy jungler is. It is too easy to countergank, somewhat obvious and oftentime worth it to camp a lane when your laner is pushing just to buy him a little bit of safety. On a similiar note, diving top lane even before lvl6 can be a brilliant idea if there is no threat of a countergank.
- Try and gank each lane at least 1 time before level 6
Definitely not. Usually you will want to focus on 1-2 lanes (probably middle+top/bottom), for several reasons. First, some champions are simply easier to gank that others; ganking that ezreal lulu lane probably isn't going to do you much good, nor is ganking vladimir middle likely to get you a kill. Second, once you do gank a lane, chances are they will use flash and that lane becomes easier to gank still. Third, ganking 3 times before level6 is a bit excessive on a lot of junglers.
- Prioritize lanes that are 1 kill down (but don't completely ignore the others)
This can be a good advice, but only if you can keep close track on the enemy jungler. The risk of a countergank is really big, especially since the jungler might want to dive your laner, so you have to be very very careful about this one. Conversely, focusing on a lane that is 1 kill up can be a great idea if used to pick up objectives.
- De-prioritize lanes that are 2+ kills down (but don't completely ignore it if there's a free kill)
Can't disagree. Sometimes getting a kill can work out (if Syndra is 2 kills down, she can probably still close to 1shot the enemy laner, lol), but those are most certainly exceptions.
- To go along with this, avoid lanes where the opponent is a snowbally champion and has already begun snowballing. Example: don't try and gank a lane vs. Akali where she is already 3/0 and is 2 levels ahead of your lane. It'll most likely result in her getting a double kill and simply snowballing even harder.
Same thing as above; it might be desirable to stay near in case that the enemy champion decides to simply dive, that is true especially for middle lane (can be an easy kill by flashing from wraith pit)
- Abuse easily gankable lanes. "Easily gankable" = lanes where your lane has a cc-ability, and the opponent doesn't have a lot of CC, or can't easily escape ganks. Example: you are xin zhao, your mid lane is Ryze, his lane opponent is Twisted Fate. You have a slow, a knockup, and a guaranteed snare. All TF can do is gold card one of you. A gank will almost surely result in him having to use flash or die/lose most of his health, especially if you and ryze both have flash as well.
Same as above, have to be careful about counterganks, but in thise case if the creeps are more or less even you can most likely 2v2.
- Avoid difficult-to-gank lanes. "Difficult-to-gank" = lanes where your lane has little cc and/or no stun, and the opponent has lots of cc or has enough mobility abilities to easily escape ganks. Example: You are Shyvana, your mid lane is vladimir, and his lane opponent is Zed. You have no stuns, neither does vlad, and Zed has his living shadow to escape. You will almost never be able to gank and kill Zed, so focus on other lanes.
Nothing to quarrel with here.
- If your ult helps you gank, then gank every time your ult is off cooldown.
It is an alright rule of thumb, but the same logic as before lvl6 applies: if you don't think you get a kill or an objective out of a gank, don't gank. If you are Amumu or something this rule can be applied most of the time, just try to incorporate a bit of your own judgment too :3
comments in bold
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On July 23 2013 08:00 Scip wrote: Wat Capped how can you get your blue, and his red before the enemy jungler even GETS to his red after blue?
Standard jungle route in noob land is still blue>wolves>wraiths>red
Its not so far fetched to manage blue->red before that is it? You head in from mid entrance and go round red buff crater through the lil brush on it (not past wraiths) using a pull skill (e.g J4's E) if u have it
It works for me, maybe the skill disparity is absolutely huge or something from silverish to challenger :D
I dont even bother attempting it unless i get a very good pull though, you need to be fast off that blue (sub 10 seconds) and it'll only happen if your team bops it down hard enough
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On July 22 2013 22:21 Arisen wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Udyr: My go to champion. I run 4/26/0 (grabbing the ghost CD reduction and 3% CDR in offense) with smite/ghost. This was the build on the toprated guide on solomid. It eschews more points in the offense tree to grab the extra tenacity and slow reduction from the defense tree that you would otherwise lose. I feel like when I do get into position for a gank early, damage from me isn't the limiting factor on weather or not it was effective so I'm happy with the masteries. I run MS quints, AS reds, Flat Armor Yellows, and MR/Lvl blues. I use these runes because udyr's damage and utility scale better with AS (pocs your phoenix and allows you better lifesteal in turtle) than AD, and I take the Movespeed quints for better initiation (once again, you don't really need to build AD on udyr).
I play phoenix max style, prioritizing Phoenix>Turtle>Bear>Tiger. I play this way because the faster clear times associated with phoenix jungling and since the change phoenix has similar burst damage anyway. I max turtle over bear for the beefier shield (I generally dont sit around in turtle stance to lifesteal till later in the game when we're teamfighting) that keeps my HP high in the jungle (switching between Phoenix and Turtle when necissary to keep the passive stacked and for the on demand shield).
For Item builds I start machete 5 pot into a fast spirit stone and boots if possible. My first buys after this are generally Boots of swiftness for the persistent movespeed in catching up to someone (I'm already gaining tenacity from ancient golum, so I don't need merc treads as much unless I really need the MR) and a kindlegem. My core is going to be aegis, Ancient golum, and locket. I build these for team utility (and every high rated jungler guide for almost any champion runs these same 3 items, so who am I to argue?) provided by locket and aegis as well as the tenacity from ancient golum as well as a good chunk of tankieness. From here I probably will chose between Frozen Heart, Randuins, Thornmail, Warmog's, and spirit visage depending on who the big threats are on the enemy team, and either another defensive item to round out the build or one offensive item (Almost always Wit's End for the increased attack speed/MR which helps get the phoenix on hit to proc more often while making me more tanky).
For route/Playsyle, I will start blue with a decent leash and almost always I will check if either midlane or the support is already missing a ward. If they are not, I will run past the enemy wraiths (going golum side) and take his red. From here I generally decide based on their early game and the champion they're playing if I'm going to focus my ganks on mid or top (for example, If there is a twisted fate or kassadin mid and, say, a Garen top, I want the mid fed more than the top, so I will probably center my play around mid lane unless it's clear that top is a far superior player or the player in mid is bad). I generally work in 1 minute cycles based around Wraith camp. I will clear wraiths and either do golums or wolves then look for a gank/invade in the 20-30 secs before wraith's re spawn although I rarely commit unless the laner is pushing my tower or I know he doesn't have a ward top and mid if they're being aggressive. My first gank bot is usually done after I buy level 2 boots. I head straight to bottom lane with ghost and gank through the lane, then try to take dragon. It works out well enough where I can use my ghost to gank bot and put pressure on objectives (Blue/Red buff and dragon) every time ghost is up. Other than that, I rarely gank bot unless I know they don't have a ward or they're way overextended.
For playstyle, I generally just want to focus on initiating the fight first. Udyr is really suceptable to getting kited and his only gap closer is bear stance, so it can be hard to do sometimes unless we have someone else to start the fight for us. When the teamfight starts, what I'm doing depends on the situation. I either A) Go after their carry and lock them down or force everyoene to go all out on me or B) use bear stance to peel for my carry. I will chose the latter if my carry is stronger, and do the former if their carry is stronger (or I'm rediculously far ahead and I don't think they can stop me).
Nunu
I play nunu somewhat similar to udyr. I build 9/21/0 with MS quints, AS reds, Armor Yellows, Scaling MR blues with smite/flash. I take the extra points in offense to get the MPen which is more essential to nunu's kit than it is for udyr. I still focus heavily on counterjungle and objective control. I run the same routes as udyr, and the same ganking patterns (although since I run flash, I find it harder to gank bottom lane, but I will nonetheless try to gank through lane with blood boil at around the same times as udyr).
I build very similarly (I will replace the wit's end for offensive items with either rylais or twin shadows (if I'm stomping, and I'll sell that later for a rylais). The only big difference in playsyles for the two champions are that I'm almost exclusively going to peel and play a support role during teamfights with nunu. Also, I spam laugh on nunu more because Nunu bot Laugh is OP.
The rest of my champion pool (in order) would probably be..
Nasus : 9/21/0 MS/AS/Armor/Scaling MR with smite/ghost: almost identical to Udyr and Nunu; Only difference being I will usually build Gauntlet and focus on chasing down their carries in teamfights).
Xin Zhao: 9/21/0 ArP quints, AS/Armor/Scaling MR with smite/flash. One of the only champions I will sometimes build 2 offensive items on (usually BotrK, maybe building Black Cleaver). Similar to Udyr, I chose between peeling or pressuring carries. Same gank/clear patterns.
Shaco 21/9/0 Smite/Ignite MS quints, AD red, AS Yellows/AS blues with smite/ignite. I only play this very rarely usually when I'm frustrated that my team threw a game the previous game. I go total all-in on aggression. I start blue, head straight to red over baron/dragon pit with q and start setting up boxes for a FB in the jungle, then look for an opportunity to gank either lane by their red. I focus almost all my attention on ganking and keeping buff timers. I clear much less when I play shaco and will sit in brushes top or bottom waiting for kills and am usually trying to gank mid every minute or two while killing their mid/jungler at buffs or just taking them every time they're up. I sometimes lvl 6 dragon solo cheese when noone looks gankable when I hit 6. For builds I focus on the core of Hexdrinker (unless they have next to no Magic damage) and A cutlass for good ganking power with the slow and the shield. From here I will always get a BotrK (since your clone gets the passive, incredibly good for dueling), and will either decide that the game is even or we're ahead, at which point I'll build Static Shiv and Hydra and split push all day, or their carry is doing well enough that I have to build PD and IE and focus on assasinating him in teamfights (usually with GA). Those are the champions I play most. As you can see, I play almost every champion in the same manner, more or less. I am more than happy to pick up new champions if that's what you recommend, and will do the best I can to respond to your analysis to change the way I play the champions I already play. Learn Nocturne. I think he's one of the strongest solo queue junglers around with his good clear and easy ganks. When I jungle I generally gank once, maybe twice max before level 6 unless it's guaranteed kills. This applies with any jungler--you want to get to your peaks in power as fast as possible and gank a lot during them, then go back to working towards your next peak. For some champs like Nocturne and Amu, this is very obvious, at levels 3 and 6, the same as most champs.
I almost never touch bot lane until level 6 regardless of who I'm on because A) it's the hardest lane to gank because of wards and B) supports generally have very good ways to protect their carries. This changes at level 6 because both you and your bot lane should all have ults and generally this is enough damage or cc to pull off a gank. Also, this is the timing where your team starts to be able to do dragon. On most of the champs I jungle with I buy pinks at level 6 to win the vision war. When you do this, you open up a lot of opportunities for your team in terms of ganks, so take advantage of it.
Other than that, the best way to pull off ganks in my opinion is to keep ahead in levels. This is solo queue and if you're having trouble ganking it's probably because you're behind on levels. It's counterintuitive--the more time you spend looking for ganks, the less powerful they become, especially as you go up in skill. Until you're at the level where you gank for pressure rather than for kills and know why you're doing that, just farm your jungle as efficiently as possible and cover for lanes when they're low. They'll appreciate that more than multiple bad gank attempts or you waiting around in a bush when there's a very low chance of you killing the opponent without them killing one or both of you.
Also, it's been said a few times already--the champs you play aren't very strong gankers. Perhaps pick up Naut/Mao/Eve/Elise/Lee/Noc/J4/Zac or consider starting boots/pots on Xin/Udyr.
P.S. Build Mobility Boots to look like an amazing ganker even if you're bad
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Mobil boots are win. Ive actually taken to buying them on most champs just because i tend to get ahead often and it can make me snowball even worse. Players at my level have the reaction time of a dead fish too so i can just punish them hard with mobil boots.
Man i love mobil boots and they transition so well into a losing-game too if you chuck homeguard on them. They help you to dominate early, if that fails you buy homeguard and your some defensive beast that can go B heal/buy and get back at them in like 10 seconds flat lol
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Mobility Boots are awesome for lane ganks. I think a lot depends on the champions your team has picked. They will basically decide your ganking pattern/ganking strategy. Most of the important stuff has been said already, the rest is just experience. Only thing i can tell you is: DONT waste too much time camping a lane(especially not before 6). But deciding whether camping is worth it now or not is a matter of experience, cant really teach you that.
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One thing I've taken to heart: don't stick around trying to turn a "failed" gank into something. I've had ganks where I walk into lane as Sejuani or Amumu, they flash my gap closer, and I just turn around and leave lane right away -- I won't accomplish anything more (usually) by hanging around. Remember when their flash is back up and come back before then and murder them. Especially in soloqueue, if you stick around you're also distracting your laner, who is going to be positioning to go in if you reengage and maybe not farming as well.
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