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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
He's a way better player than I am, so I stood corrected, but just now I read in some guide that it was the other way around, and heard the streamer 'wingsofdeath' saying vi is a 'farm until 6 champion' where he was specifically referring to a game of vi vs shaco. Now which one is it? :') How does the matchup roughly go in terms of strengths early and mid game? | ||
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
On August 06 2015 08:15 Frolossus wrote: So my friend was right in his idea that you should just counterjungle early? Or would that depend on the status of the lanes and the matchups?i think vi still outclasses shaco in every aspect right now but if it comes down to the level 6 duel shaco ult should negate the damage from vi ult | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
She's also very reliant on hitting a max charged Q to win fights (pre-nerf/pre-Cinderhulk Sejuani would win the naked fights (as in just Machete) if Vi didn't get a full charge to initiate) and Shaco's Deceive makes it easy to dodge if you see it coming. So you'd have to hit 3, go into Shaco's jungle, and find him doing a camp while remaining out of vision so you can charge Q and get Q-aa-E off to drop his HP. He'll still be able to Deceive out to stop the fight, and if you stay to take his camp his burst will still threaten you, on top of Deceive letting him try the smite war to get the exp out of you. I'm sure you can delay him, but while it hurts Shaco, Vi really wants to hit 6 asap and make use of her ult since it has such a huge-ass cd now. So even if gimping both early games is likely in your favour, I wouldn't say it's a good thing, you're just better (as in "less bad") off. | ||
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Sonnington
United States1107 Posts
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
like catching shaco at level 2 is pretty difficult when he can get lvl 3 so quickly with boxes. also if you get your Q juked you probably can't kill him anyway typically having the early advantage in skirmishes isn't that important when invading, you usually rely on surprise factor and killing them while they do a camp. What's more important is if you have the burst and chase damage be able to kill them, because for the high risk just denying him a jungle camp doesn't really give you any significant advantage. | ||
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
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MaCRo.gg
Korea (South)860 Posts
How did the Korean exodus do in China? I heard many top Koreans went over there after rules changed a bit last year. Also that they pretty much stomped at the beginning rounds of LPL. I was wondering how that ended up? Are most of them still in China competing or have they went back? Is there a limit on how many Koreans you can field? How has the Korea vs China matchup been going towards? Has China closed the gap? How did the all star match go was it all Chinese players on the China all star team or did they include Koreans that played in their league? As a player based did the Chinese catch up at all or is the gap still pretty large? If you can compare the parity of the scene in comparison to BW or SC2 where would you rank LoL parity? | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
2. Yes. IIRC a majority of your players (that play in a game) must be native to the region. After ~2-3 years or something, Koreans who cashed out in China will be considered "native" and chinese teams will be able to field more imported players if they want. 3. Well EDG beat SKT at MSI. Overall, it's a bit tough to tell imo. I say this because Korea right now has been pretty dominated by Koo and SKT while Naijin, CJ and a few other teams have been rising and falling with various patches. China, top to bottom, looks stronger IMO than Korea; but Korea's bottom end (Anarchy, IM, Samsung) for the most part looks much worse than the LPL bottom end. Plus, in China there's a wider variety of styles and a larger preference for aggression rather than risk-averse play. So I'm not sure there's a good measure of if China is actually better. 4. The chinese players have always been world class; often better than most NA/EU could field. I think the influx of Korean players and coaches helped bring better strategic play to China IMO. But on a mechanical level, the chinese players were always on par (in many cases) with the top koreans. | ||
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MaCRo.gg
Korea (South)860 Posts
On August 16 2015 11:47 geript wrote: 1. For the most part, the Koreans who have participated in LPL have done quite well and are some of the best at their positions. Mata is still good; Dandy got switched to top and is doing well. Rookie is still playing well in mid. Deft is currently in a bit of a slump but dominated the first season. Pawn was out for a bit due to health but is back and looking great. Looper and Flame are a few exceptions and seem to be much worse; Dade has had good points and bad points. Overall though, the player's skill level hasn't seemed to drop and they seem to have meshed with their respective teams well. 2. Yes. IIRC a majority of your players (that play in a game) must be native to the region. After ~2-3 years or something, Koreans who cashed out in China will be considered "native" and chinese teams will be able to field more imported players if they want. 3. Well EDG beat SKT at MSI. Overall, it's a bit tough to tell imo. I say this because Korea right now has been pretty dominated by Koo and SKT while Naijin, CJ and a few other teams have been rising and falling with various patches. China, top to bottom, looks stronger IMO than Korea; but Korea's bottom end (Anarchy, IM, Samsung) for the most part looks much worse than the LPL bottom end. Plus, in China there's a wider variety of styles and a larger preference for aggression rather than risk-averse play. So I'm not sure there's a good measure of if China is actually better. 4. The chinese players have always been world class; often better than most NA/EU could field. I think the influx of Korean players and coaches helped bring better strategic play to China IMO. But on a mechanical level, the chinese players were always on par (in many cases) with the top koreans. Hasn't it been pretty heavily dominated by Koreans before the switch? I remember reading several articles about how Chinese teams had a very difficult time taking games off top Korean teams. I mean there has to be a reason why they brought out huge checks to get the Korean players/coaches over there right? Hasn't the worlds been won by Koreans the last several times with pretty dominant finishes by the second Korean team? | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
Either way, since Season 3 and the SKT train of dominance and the Samsung White "best team ever" it's been all Korea all the time. The "Korean Exodus" happened after season 4 where almost all the stars from Korea moved to China to get paid. Koreans had played elsewhere before, but it was never the top talent and never on the same scale. I mean, something like 15-20 players left to play in LPL, LSPL and elsewhere. I think it was like 40% of Korean talent moved elsewhere. China shelled out for them because they want to win worlds and they think good Koreans will help that very similar to how every NFL team courted Peyton Manning after he was released from the Colts. Plus, they have huge fan bases who want to see their team do well which can help support the costs. Iirc, the second best Korean teams seemed to get beat by the best Korean team before the best Koreans beat SHR in the finals. | ||
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Sonnington
United States1107 Posts
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Uldridge
Belgium5070 Posts
My guess is it's often a bait mechanic next to your lifesaver. So you're going in with your glass canon build, you get cc'd and damaged and pray to god you bashed that zhonya's keybind perfectly so you can go in stasis the second you're able to. Meanwhile, the people that are focussing you can't really anticipate perfectly on your zhonya's, so they'll have to readjust their focus when you go golden. This is the perfect opportunity to "soft reset" the fight, ult if necessary and clean up if you're able to. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
But it's the same thing as asking why Vlad builds Zhonya's since he has pool, for example.  | ||
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Sonnington
United States1107 Posts
On August 19 2015 16:21 Alaric wrote: If you can use Zhonya's after staying 1-2s in the same spot and taking damage, people won't want to sit on you because your ult will put you in the same place but with the massive nuke. It helps. But it's the same thing as asking why Vlad builds Zhonya's since he has pool, for example. That's possible. I think it's a bit of a tough sell though. His ult has a relatively short cd and he usually builds cdr items. It's also not like it's tough to see the Ekko hologram coming, but it could definitely work. I think it's also a good tool to consistently get W off with. Hourglass lasts 2.5 seconds W explodes after 3. So it could be used to bait a stun if you're lucky, but at the very least you get the shield off when he comes out of stasis. | ||
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
I was watching KOO vs CJ game 1 and had a question about a fight in KOO's jungle: + Show Spoiler + (To avoid spoilers, i will only name champions, not sides or names) After a while, you see evelynn chasing elise, going away from the teamfight, and killing her. While that was happening, Alistar and Maokai were damaged heavily (and killed) by orianna and kog maw. Given that Evelynn has a locket of the iron scolari, would it have been better (in this situation in hindsight) to stick with the team to provide support (extra magic resist)? Would it have made any difference in terms of kills for either side? How much threat was the elise in this situation given that she was heavily damaged? I'm asking this, because the teamfight felt really wrong for the evelynn side, but I'm not sure enough to form a definitive opinion on it. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On August 20 2015 22:07 Yorbon wrote: Hey guys, I have another question (again...) I was watching KOO vs CJ game 1 and had a question about a fight in KOO's jungle: + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgyLKZVe2zo#t=4147 (To avoid spoilers, i will only name champions, not sides or names) After a while, you see evelynn chasing elise, going away from the teamfight, and killing her. While that was happening, Alistar and Maokai were damaged heavily (and killed) by orianna and kog maw. Given that Evelynn has a locket of the iron scolari, would it have been better (in this situation in hindsight) to stick with the team to provide support (extra magic resist)? Would it have made any difference in terms of kills for either side? How much threat was the elise in this situation given that she was heavily damaged? I'm asking this, because the teamfight felt really wrong for the evelynn side, but I'm not sure enough to form a definitive opinion on it. good question, and I recommend watching the fight over and over because thats what I did just to answer your question. My opinion: Eve actually played the best on his team in that teamfight. (Edit: Viktor probably played better on further inspection) I'll explain; What happened was a really messy engage. Alistar flash WQ's on kog, while Mao is tping. Possibly overeager and maybe not necessary as Mao was close enough with TP, and you can't insta burst him past Orianna shield+Janna ER+Heal+QSS+Shen ult. Janna makes a mistake when she ults just BEFORE maos W hits so she knocks back ali but not mao. Meanwhile Eve has ulted and went on orianna and forced her to shield herself meaning the ball isn't free for some kind of shield on Shen and ult on ali+viktor+mao+eve or something. (Orianna Q shorter range than E by far) Elise has tried to go on viktor, got rekt and forced to rappel and then flash straight into Eve. Orianna was healed and Eve was knocked back from janna ult so Oris quite healthy so it seems like a no brainer to finish off the Elise with half HP and no flash/rappel. She could be quite the threat if she lands a stun on viktor or vayne. Meanwhile Vayne has flanked the enemy team and routed Kog/Janna/Orianna, kog has QSS+Flashed out. Right now Elise is out of the fight and viktor and vayne are finishing off shen. Maokai makes a terrible flash+W engage with nobody to follow up and he loses a lot of hp. Shen dies. Vayne+Viktor try to follow an alistar WQ but orianna fires the ball in betwene all 4 and viktor cleverly baits out the ult, Eve comes from a great flank but both ali and maokai wasted their CDs and got themselves killed for no reason so the backline can't follow up. If eve had done what you said: 20 magic resist doesn't make a big difference in such a large scale fight, most likely she would have been Orianna ulted with ali and and the back if they tried to follow. Elise would rejoin from the bush and stun vayne or viktor and allow the enemy to snipe someone. Very dangerous. I'll rate the players in this teamfight: Blue team: Alistar: Flash WQ into Kog. Exhausts Kog when he BoTRKs Viktor, where shen could taunt and elise could help kill. Also face of mountains viktor. Good decisions. Next WQ forced because Mao went so ham, gets stopped by janna Q. 4/5 Maokai: Engages on Kog after TP. Flash W's JANNA. AFTER Vayne has backed off. Then ran around randomly not doing anything but not staying out of damage range. Terrible. Already zoned the backline out with his threat of W+Vayne 2/5 Eve: Explained earlier. Went on orianna to avoid grouping up for an orianna ult and stopping orianna from looking for a good ball placement. Sees elise misplay and kills her, flanks around for the clean up but her front line had fucked up. 5/5 Vayne: Interesting one. Came into the fight and possibly scared elise away although she was already half hp. Flash OVER the wall to try to flank on Kog. Problem is had already QSS flashed out. Maybe slow reactions.I think it was the right idea but she should have saved her flash for when maos W was up. The backline probably would get zoned out anyway, or else flanked by eve. Only got like 6 autos off in total. Avoided Ori ult. Had a chance to go ham after orianna used ult, but didn't know eve was coming and was trying to avoid ori ball. Probably should have committed since orianna wouldn't have the range to hit vayne with ball anyway. Poor but I see what she was trying to do 3/5 Viktor: Destroys elise. Forced follow up onto Kog because frontline went so ham, uses ult. Gets turned on and turns away but deals all his damage. Backline gets zoned by mao+chaos storm and when they run he uses it with the rest of his damage to kill shen. Perfectly baits out orianna ult. Misses that last lazer because he didn't know eve was coming. Voice chat could have been clouded so I won't fault him for that. Near perfect play 5/5 Red team Elise: Totally out of position. Goes on viktor dispite clearly outmatched and team getting engaged on. Rappels+Flash right into Eve, could have easily got out any other way. Got killed for nothing. Terrible 1/5 Shen: Ults onto Kog, no brainer. Does a useless taunt onto maokai and misses viktor. Even without viktors catlike reactions would probably miss, and was too early anyway. Could have saved when ori was ready. Does a pathetic q+ki strike with no follow up and surrounded by the enemy team. He should have ran down through midlane at that point, viktor would never chase and nobody else could afford to, he could flank with next taunt from behind and orianna could ult. He died without being able to do anything because the tanks were all around him. Terrible, but understandable play. 2/5 Janna: First Q totally off the mark. Ulted too early and the healing wasn't important shen ult shield was still standing. Spams W and E on cd which was okay I suppose. Had a great Q on alistar to stop the WQ. Fairly good but easy to play performance with solid positioning 4/5 Kog: Dodgey positioning. Okay decision to turn on viktor with so many shields on him and he's slowed anyway, but vayne flashes in and he gets exhaust so good qss+flash out. Avoids viktor ult and vayne damage and his job is made easy for him as tanks run up to him 1 by 1 trying to hit abilities while he takes pot shots, good snipe on madlife too. Solid. 4/5 Orianna: Great play here. Good kiting of eve who came from nowhere, but only using E and W, saving Q to zone out vayne and viktor from walking into kog. Uses next Q to zone the vayne who flashes in. (Kog probably should have went more ham seeing it). Consistently good and accurate shields and Ws, and great zoning Q's. Unfortunately got outplayed by viktor and ulted slightly too early, but still zoned well. Missing ult on orianna is poor though hitting only alistar, so I can't rate her 5. 4/5 It's interesting both midlaners played so well and both top lanes played so badly. People talk about how midlanes have so much more power over the game but it feels like if the tanks weren't both retarded they both could have won the teamfight for their team but instead of they both were almost equally bad and the teamfight was a draw LOL. | ||
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Dandel Ion
Austria17960 Posts
as is kog wasn't knocked up so he did lotsa damage in the time evelynn was supposed to have to finish flanking from above i guess the counted on janna not being a god but then he was and it turns out they should have turned around earlier and taken the 2 for 0 but understandable mistake tbh € actually nvm Kogmaw was out of range anyway, would not have worked at all janna not god anymore either, ali mite b bronze tho | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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