EPT[Champion] Ryze - Page 8
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-Zoda-
France3578 Posts
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Shiv.
3534 Posts
On January 08 2013 08:56 -Zoda- wrote: As I said on the top of the page, I find quite hard to autoattack in teamfights to use IBG's passive. The animation is quite slow and you already have to stop a bit to use Qs... get a good positioning while doing these 2 seems quite hard to me. It's very good for chasing people since your W has noticeable cooldown tho. So I would say that it's worth buying only if you are really ahead of enemy team. Othewise FH is a safer buy most of the time. Still not sure why you have to decide on either, also not sure if it's you or me who's teamfighting wrong, but more often than not, I find myself pressured to burst as much ASAP, so I rather use QEWQ instead of QWQEQ, leaving plenty of room to autoattack. It's not an item I would get every game, but I think it's really valid as a BV replacement against no AP teams. | ||
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-Zoda-
France3578 Posts
On the point of no AP team, well dunno, Frozen Heart gives more armor I think... In the end I think that choice probably comes down to the simple rule : if you are ahead, buy offense (IBG), if your are behind buy defense (FH). If you don't get BV and get IBG, you might then get Rylais for the Hp and become Ryze-slowbot. | ||
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Shiv.
3534 Posts
On January 09 2013 06:15 -Zoda- wrote: Well yeah, I also do that quick combo, it leaves some time waiting for your Q. But once that is done I think most teamfights get more tricky and you have to be way more careful about your positioning imo. I'm far from being a high elo but at least that's what I felt. On the point of no AP team, well dunno, Frozen Heart gives more armor I think... In the end I think that choice probably comes down to the simple rule : if you are ahead, buy offense (IBG), if your are behind buy defense (FH). If you don't get BV and get IBG, you might then get Rylais for the Hp and become Ryze-slowbot. Why do you feel that IBG and FH exclude each other? You can get the FH first against AD teams, then start working on another glacial. Besides from the CDR, you use all the stats, and it makes Muramana even better. The Rylai's argument is a very valid one though and I think it's a great item to get in certain situations if your and/or their teamcomp calls for it. I really, really like the mana and armor IBG provides, though. Shit man, Ryze itemization is HARD. I just read Nyjacky'S Ryze guide on lolpro and it advertizes some weird-ass itembuilds I would never run because they leave you way too squishy, but I kind of see how Zhonya's might actually be an item to consider against these pure AD teams, rather than IBG or Rylai's. Oh, another thing you should consider: if you are running 21 utility (which you most likely should be), FH provides enough CDR to cap you at 40 on it's own, while IBG leaves you at 36%. Might be placebo, but I think it's noticable in drawn out teamfights. Something just feels off without FH, which is why I get it every game without exception. | ||
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-Zoda-
France3578 Posts
I actually had not thought about Liandry's on Ryze, it can indeed be quite strong in term of damage. And the passive is doubled if you do a WQ, that can hurt. His build order delays the Glacial Shroud by quite a lot though... I'm not sure about Zonyha's really, his AP ratios aren't that good to spend 1600 gold on that large rod... | ||
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h3r1n6
Iceland2039 Posts
Regarding Zhonyas, it is actually pretty good, depending on how well you can use the active. Regarding gauntlet and FH, buying a second CDR item is not very gold effective, I probably would choose Randuins or Zhonyas over IBG just for gold efficiency. My usual go-to second armor item is ga though anyway, which I would also prefer over the gauntlet in most cases. Depends on teamcomps and how the teamfights go though. There is no always optimal choice. The last 4% cdr make a noticeable difference, just because Ryzes passive synergizes so well with CDR. You can always just get a blue pot for teamfights though, so I don't see that as an issue for IBG. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On January 09 2013 07:38 Shiv. wrote: Why do you feel that IBG and FH exclude each other? You can get the FH first against AD teams, then start working on another glacial. Besides from the CDR, you use all the stats, and it makes Muramana even better. The Rylai's argument is a very valid one though and I think it's a great item to get in certain situations if your and/or their teamcomp calls for it. I really, really like the mana and armor IBG provides, though. Shit man, Ryze itemization is HARD. I just read Nyjacky'S Ryze guide on lolpro and it advertizes some weird-ass itembuilds I would never run because they leave you way too squishy, but I kind of see how Zhonya's might actually be an item to consider against these pure AD teams, rather than IBG or Rylai's. Oh, another thing you should consider: if you are running 21 utility (which you most likely should be), FH provides enough CDR to cap you at 40 on it's own, while IBG leaves you at 36%. Might be placebo, but I think it's noticable in drawn out teamfights. Something just feels off without FH, which is why I get it every game without exception. So you're basically spending 700 gold on a chainmail, 800 on 2 mana crystals, getting NO CDR, just so you can have a 30% aoe ground slow on a still-shitty autoattack? IBG is already not a cost-efficient item on champs who DO use all the stats - you already pay a lot for the spellblade-slow part. It's nonsense on Ryze, who is casting spells WAY too often and should be using the time he has in between spells to position himself. If you're bothering to throw autos, you're probably LOSING distance against your slowed target compared to if you were spell-and-moving instead. If you want a slow so badly on Ryze that you're willing to throw away 3k gold, get Rylai's instead. | ||
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Sqq
Norway2023 Posts
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
Frozen heart definitely has better defensive utility, but attackspeed slows are usually only really useful against AD carries, which ryze shouldn't be fighting MOST of the time until a fight winds down or the AD gets out of position. Gauntlet is perfectly acceptable. | ||
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
On January 10 2013 17:22 TwoToneTerran wrote: IBG gives more mana and ap and a sheen proc, so it's more damage if you've maxed out on cdr with it, and aoe slows are great for chasing people down once you've used your whole cycle and your spells start coming out more slowly. Frozen heart definitely has better defensive utility, but attackspeed slows are usually only really useful against AD carries, which ryze shouldn't be fighting MOST of the time until a fight winds down or the AD gets out of position. Gauntlet is perfectly acceptable. a ton of bruisers want AS and ryze has to kill them. | ||
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-Exalt-
United States972 Posts
>RoA/tear/sorc boots >Glacial Shroud/Hextech Revolver >Muramana (can get before hextech if you're stacking tear like a baws) >Upgrade glacial into Iceborn gauntlet, or FH if you need more armor At some point along the way get a Negatron cloak >Upgrade to Wota >Upgrade negatron to Spirit Visage Final build: [RoA][Sorc boots][Muramana][Iceborn Gauntlet][Wota][Spirit Visage] Now you have a lot of damage, and insane sustain for long fights. One combo will heal you to full HP. You can get void staff instead of Spirit Visage if you want more damage (or if you want more damage and they aren't building MR, get a 2nd tear and get archangel.) | ||
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h3r1n6
Iceland2039 Posts
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pschiu
Singapore410 Posts
Here are some points you guys should consider: 1) IBG gives roughly 1.65 times the DPS of FH. I used the QWQEQRQWQEQ rotation to calculate this, but the figures are similar for QWEQ. This means better slot efficiency, damage wise. At the point of getting it, I usually have as other items Mura, RoA, nega, boots of choice, and wards, so the DPS slot efficiency is important. 2) Yes it gives 5% less CDR. With Mura you'd want to hog blue buff now anyway. (Yes I know you could give it away in S2.) Even if you don't, you could just get a blue pot like any other mid. Yes blue pot costs gold, and that's a tradeoff to analyse, not to just discard and say "nah IBG sucks cos it doesn't max your CDR". Consider the exaggeration that you wouldn't be saying that if IBG gave you 100000000 damage. 3) Yes, FH's AS debuff can be important. But also consider that FH is an item your solotop or jungler might be getting anyway. Other factors to note: you don't need the AS debuff as much if you're killing them so much faster, and also if you're permaslowing them with the proc anyway, which leads me to... 4) Ok so maybe you think you can't have time to get the proc off. (Personally I think you guys really should consider that there is always a tradeoff between repositioning and throwing off an important proc to kite for your ADC instead of straightoff saying "no there's just no time". Plus if you're aoe permaslowing them by 35%, you don't need to reposition as much anyway. Yes I know it's not that huge an aoe.) But let's just assume the proc is useless for you. Might it be that the item is worth getting even if it doesn't have the proc? Some of your arguments really look like "item sucks cos proc sucks". Btw, you're paying roughly only 100 gold for the proc, *assuming* you use all the other stats, which you do as Ryze. Of course, the science of assigning gold values to stats isn't exact and is sometimes controversial esp where CDR is concerned, but it shouldn't be far off if you do the calculations yourself. 5) Yes you get less armor. It's a tradeoff. Remember that tankiness is important, but it isn't everything. No use being the last to survive in your team cos you were so tanky and constantly repositioning well, but weren't putting out enough damage to kill the opponents before they killed your team. Of course, the difference between IBG and FH shouldn't be as drastic as that most of the time, but it's still a thing to consider. --- In short, I'm not saying IBG > FH all the time, but I'm saying it's at least worth considering. If you even go through the points I made to see if I'm bullshitting or not, it was already worth the 10-15 minutes typing this post. Personally I'd get IBG by default now unless I think really need the FH, but you can go ahead and experiment with it. | ||
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h3r1n6
Iceland2039 Posts
 I think you overvalue the slow a bit. Not that many champions, at least not the popular ones, are kiteable with that. It's the same thing why you don't get Rylais that often on Ryze. It's a different story for Ezreal for example, since he can apply the gauntlet proc from out of reach of any gapcloser. | ||
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pschiu
Singapore410 Posts
On January 13 2013 00:51 h3r1n6 wrote: For 1, can you back that number up with a spreadsheet or something? I really should make a proper Ryze spreadsheet for everyone to look stuff up, but it's hard and I'm lazy I think you overvalue the slow a bit. Not that many champions, at least not the popular ones, are kiteable with that. It's the same thing why you don't get Rylais that often on Ryze. It's a different story for Ezreal for example, since he can apply the gauntlet proc from out of reach of any gapcloser. Perhaps I overvalue the slow. It's a judgement call. However, 1) I don't intend to mean that it will prevent gap closers. That I expect will be dealt with flash and whatever available cc. I usually use it as kiting after the gap closer, or to chase as the fight winds down. 2) Perhaps I sound like I place more emphasis on the proc than I really do. To me it's actually just an extra option. I'd still get IBG if tomorrow it suddenly doesn't have the proc anymore. As for the numbers, I don't have a spreadsheet, cos I R REAL MEN and real men don't use spreadsheets (nah j/k I was lazy). I did some shortform calculations with notepad, so I have to actually spend time to present it sort of nicely here. There are various factors such as number of E bounces, curr amount of mana you have plus how mura burns through it (assuming you have mura, but if you don't IBG is even better damage-wise). Here is a sample calculation and you can do a spreadsheet if you really want, but the numbers don't differ much so I personally don't bother. Ryze skills: (M = max mana) Q 160 +0.4AP +0.065M dmg [+0.06M (~mura at max mana)] W 200 +0.6AP +0.045M dmg [+0.06M (~mura at max mana)] E 390 +1.05AP +0.03M dmg (assuming 3 bounces) Sample teamfight rotation: QWQEQRQWQEQ = 6Q2W2E 2140 +5.7AP +0.54M dmg [+0.48M] FH gives 400M = 216 bonus dmg [+192=408] IBG gives 500M+40AP = 498 bonus dmg [+240=738] So if you have muramana and somehow don't burn through any mana while casting, IBG/FH dmg ratio is 738/408 = 1.78. As you have less and less current mana (and thus less bonus dmg from mura), the ratio increases (making IBG better). At the extreme end, you get 0 bonus dmg from mura (ie, perhaps you didn't go mura), then the ratio is 498/216 = 2.31. You can actually see this from the fact that IBG gives 40AP and 100M more than FH. When you get mura (or AA), the influence of mana increases and the ratio tends towards 500/400 = 1.25, (e.g., if you could hypothetically get multiple muras/AAs). But as the influence of mana decreases, that 40 extra AP is actually a huge chunk of damage that goes into the same slot as the 400-500ish mana. You can do the math for AA too. I believe it should be a total of [+0.171M (AA)] for that given rotation. You can try other rotations too. Personally I'm just satisfied knowing the rough figures of how much more damage IBG gives over FH and experimenting in-game. Just as a countercheck in case you get down to doing it, here are some rough figures for various items damage (assuming mura), excluding whatever extra damage from passives (like mura's, AA's, penetrations) they give: FH ~400 IBG ~700 Void, Abyssal, WotA, BV, MC, Ohm?! ~300 Mura ~1k AA ~1.2k RoA ~700 empty to ~1k full My personal path (flexible according to game) would usually be tear -> RoA (with boots and nega somewhere in between) -> glacial -> mura -> IBG -> whatever else needed. | ||
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Shiv.
3534 Posts
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h3r1n6
Iceland2039 Posts
It looks alright as a more offensive choice than Frozen Heart and I added its picture to the op, but you claimed it as sleeper op. I don't really see that any more than Ryze being silly currently anyway. If you get through laning phase (easy with flask), you can just build 5 roas, mash qwer and do well. | ||
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pschiu
Singapore410 Posts
On January 13 2013 03:18 Shiv. wrote: Another thing you should consider is that only one item slow per champion can be active, which means: if your opponent is already slowed by a Phage/Mallet/Triforce/Rylai's/Frozen Shard, your IBG is not going to procc. And at the point in the game you are considering getting it, it's highly unlikely your team isn't sporting at least one of these items. I'd also say it's a lot less likely to see someone building FH but have no of the other items on your team. I don't know, maybe it just doesn't fit my playstyle too much, but I have a hard time skipping FH. As I said, to me the proc is a bonus nice-to-have. I'd get IBG even if it didn't have the proc. On January 13 2013 03:34 h3r1n6 wrote: Aww, I thought you factored in CDR and everything, that's not being a real man. It looks alright as a more offensive choice than Frozen Heart and I added its picture to the op, but you claimed it as sleeper op. I don't really see that any more than Ryze being silly currently anyway. If you get through laning phase (easy with flask), you can just build 5 roas, mash qwer and do well. I don't need to factor in CDR cos I'm assuming you'd max it out some other way if you're getting IBG. I'm certainly not comparing an IBG Ryze 35% cdr with a FH Ryze 40% cdr. I'm comparing them at both 40%, such that Ryze can do the same rotations with the same timings. And yes I do believe Ryze is currently OP. | ||
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Shiv.
3534 Posts
On January 13 2013 10:31 pschiu wrote: As I said, to me the proc is a bonus nice-to-have. I'd get IBG even if it didn't have the proc. I don't need to factor in CDR cos I'm assuming you'd max it out some other way if you're getting IBG. I'm certainly not comparing an IBG Ryze 35% cdr with a FH Ryze 40% cdr. I'm comparing them at both 40%, such that Ryze can do the same rotations with the same timings. And yes I do believe Ryze is currently OP. That is like saying you compare BT and IE without accounting for the lifesteal BT offers, cause you're gonna grab a vamp scepter anyways, even if you go IE. You spend additional gold on capping CDR for a limited amount of time, especially if you finish IBG somewhat early. That's relevant. I will do the math on my own, even though I realized I hate not having FH. And I also realize as long as I buy items that sort of work on Ryze, I shouldn't worry too much because honestly, there's a thousand things winning and losing me games before itemization. | ||
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h3r1n6
Iceland2039 Posts
I started to really like Warmogs as a defensive choice for Ryze, partially just for the massive health regen boost. | ||
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