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On May 04 2012 14:51 Vaporized wrote:
i added a part about the hp you gain and how tanky that makes u. if you have aegis why would anyone target you in the first place? sejuani is not a priority target for anyone, and like i said, i rarely die after i get fromal. im perfectly willing to be persuaded that fromal is bad, but nothing you have said has changed my mind.
ive found that sejuani is weak early, you depend on your team to assist you in getting kills. if you get those kills or assists, u just need like 2, and get a small advantage (early gp5) you can snowball and carry hard. i was surprised a champ like sejuani has that capability, but she definetly does, i do it game after game. and aegis isnt the way to get there. if youre not interested in exploiting sejuani's potential then fine, but she is certainly not just a support jungle.
hog + fromal rush makes you SUPER tanky at that point in that game. and then when the other team's damage is able to cut through your hp (shock! it happens around the time you finish warmog) then you add resists and you remain near unkillable.
But HoG + Aegis + Giant's Belt makes you tankier for the same gold. All Frozen Mallet does is give you 10 more AD and the proc for losing the entire Aegis aura and resistances. If you want to say Frozen Mallet feels tanky and Aegis doesn't allow you to carry that's fine, but there's nothing gold and stat wise that actually supports that.
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you get the same hp with aegis or fromal. so it comes down to the proc. and to me the proc is worth losing the resistances. aegis is a midgame item. it is not a best in slot item, thats not to say that it isnt good or useful in many situations, just that it is investing in the short term not the long.
fromal i would argue is a best in slot hp item in that it gives the 2nd most hp of any item. this is a long term item that regardless of what else happens i would not replace with anything. the gp5 i love so much is another long term investment. i sacrifice the early game in a lot of cases to make it so that when we get to mid and late game i have a gold advantage. i play macro zerg in sc2 and 'macro' LoL also. i like champs that are weak early but as close to unstoppable juggernauts as possible in the mid and late game.
in other words an aegis would just set back my powerhouse 6 item build which is the ultimate goal of everything i do. i figure if i get those items it gives me the best chance of winning of this game. specifically in solo que controlling what you do, and trying to mold the game to progress how you want it to, are extremely important to overall winning percentages i think. my team can be losing when i get sheen on skarner. but just by looking at the game timer i know if we will win that game or not because skarner with sheen early enough is op. you do ridiculous damage compared to what other people do.
for those reasons i am philosohically against aegis.
when i read about sejuani i wanted a champ that could perma slow someone. it seemed like she should have, based on her kit, the best cc in the game. and that should by defintion be op (and i dont mean literally op, i mean able to be advantageously expoloited at certain times and with certain builds with the right knowledge). without fromal sejuani has certainly some of the best cc in the game, better then the majority of champs for sure. but some champs are better. with fromal i would argue sejuani has the best cc in the game. and for that reason the proc + health makes fromal an ideal core item.
you can be caught between cooldowns, and someone could get away. the fromal acts as a buffer. the two forms of cc cover for each other. if your abilities got a slow off then great. autoattacking now means they are dead if u have a teammate with u. if you for any reason cant get an ability off, then autoattack slows them, and then when abilities are up u lock them down. some champs have move speed buffs or flash skills or a large number of ways that 10% movement speed reduction from AA wont be enough for you to catch them. a 50% AA snare is brutal.
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Slows don't stack that way. It's not 40% + 10%, it's 40% + (10% * .65) which is 43.5%. There are plenty of jungle champs that scale better than Sejuani does late game. The major limitation for champion scaling is their kit and their lane, not how many GP10 items you stack. You could build GP10 and full AD on your support Soraka "for the late game" but that doesn't mean that you'll ever hit your 6 item build before the game ends and no matter what you do a vayne will do more damage than you with the same items.
Similarly, the jungler is pretty far behind solo lanes in farm unless he gets lots of successful ganks. In most of my jungle games I'm lucky if I finish my 3rd big item (such as after wriggles-hog-wit's) before the game is mostly decided, finishing a 6 item build is just a pipe dream most of the time.
On May 04 2012 14:40 Seiuchi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 13:32 phyvo wrote:On May 04 2012 12:02 Seiuchi wrote:On May 04 2012 11:20 Zato-1 wrote:On May 04 2012 10:57 Seiuchi wrote:
Edit: Also, I just think it's obnoxious that you've decided you HATE THE TYPE OF JUNGLER SEJUANI IS so much you're forcing a build on her when it's obvious she's just not very good at it, especially with the Atma's nerf. She's Amumu with tits, not Nocturne. Actually, I have no idea if she's good with this build or not. For the past two months, my internet connection has been working like ass and my latency makes LoL unplayable for me, so I haven't been able to properly test this. Therefore, one of the things I can still do is come up with builds and stuff and share them. Of course, most of the responses I get heap shit on me and my build without ever having tried it. And I'm the one being obnoxious? Goddamn. I've tried Mallet on Sejuani, it's just really bad. I've played like 100 games of her with various builds, but when it comes down to it she's most effective with support jungler builds because she's a support jungler and she has numbers that incentivize support jungler items. When you don't have a defensive steroid and your damage revolves around sitting on people with W on, your damage is linked to staying alive as much as possible with cost efficient items and having the CDR to always have W up, both of which your build fails at. In terms of damage CDR is highly, highly overrated on every champion in the game not named Ryze. On Sej you'll get more damage from stacking atmogs than you ever would from a defensive CDR build. Even champs like Skarner who have multiple cdr effects do less damage with CDR based builds than simple onhit tanky builds. You find that your build is effective but that's because a support jungler is more reliant on team utility than damage output and there are only three ways to improve your utility in this game: stay alive, aura/active items, and CDR. You're just going from a broken premise (all support junglers are shit, it's a shit build) when Maokai and Nautilus have been proven to be supremely effective with mostly the same build Sejuani goes (and Sejuani will too when she inevitably gets early jungle buffs because her problem isn't damage but how she's counterjungled). I mean, you could go Atmogs Amumu too, but it's not efficient. The difference is amumu doesn't scale with HP. The rational for atmogs sejuani is "my W scales with HP and I'm getting tons of HP, I might as well grab an atma's since with 3k HP it's an efficient item". Personally, I think it *could* work if Sejuani ever becomes viable top lane, but from the jungle? That seems pretty suspect. As far as the CDR argument goes, 4 more seconds of uptime of Northern Winds to have it only down 1 second between casts at 160-180 damage in an AoE should do more damage than AD from some Atmallet build off the top of my head, but I'd have to run the numbers. That's in addition to the extra utility you're getting from less CD between ult and more Es.
I've run the numbers before and atmogs does more damage than CDR stacking. Not because of more W damage overall but because auto attacks just scale really well. If you aren't auto attacking on Sej you're not going to be in W range anyway. Even then some surprising facts emerge, like a fully stacked warmogs doing more damage than a frozen heart, or sunfire cape being one the better items on her now for EHP + DPS (though it lacks in utility).
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On May 05 2012 00:00 phyvo wrote:Slows don't stack that way. It's not 40% + 10%, it's 40% + (10% * .65) which is 43.5%. There are plenty of jungle champs that scale better than Sejuani does late game. The major limitation for champion scaling is their kit and their lane, not how many GP10 items you stack. You could build GP10 and full AD on your support Soraka "for the late game" but that doesn't mean that you'll ever hit your 6 item build before the game ends and no matter what you do a vayne will do more damage than you with the same items. Similarly, the jungler is pretty far behind solo lanes in farm unless he gets lots of successful ganks. In most of my jungle games I'm lucky if I finish my 3rd big item (such as after wriggles-hog-wit's) before the game is mostly decided, finishing a 6 item build is just a pipe dream most of the time. Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 14:40 Seiuchi wrote:On May 04 2012 13:32 phyvo wrote:On May 04 2012 12:02 Seiuchi wrote:On May 04 2012 11:20 Zato-1 wrote:On May 04 2012 10:57 Seiuchi wrote:
Edit: Also, I just think it's obnoxious that you've decided you HATE THE TYPE OF JUNGLER SEJUANI IS so much you're forcing a build on her when it's obvious she's just not very good at it, especially with the Atma's nerf. She's Amumu with tits, not Nocturne. Actually, I have no idea if she's good with this build or not. For the past two months, my internet connection has been working like ass and my latency makes LoL unplayable for me, so I haven't been able to properly test this. Therefore, one of the things I can still do is come up with builds and stuff and share them. Of course, most of the responses I get heap shit on me and my build without ever having tried it. And I'm the one being obnoxious? Goddamn. I've tried Mallet on Sejuani, it's just really bad. I've played like 100 games of her with various builds, but when it comes down to it she's most effective with support jungler builds because she's a support jungler and she has numbers that incentivize support jungler items. When you don't have a defensive steroid and your damage revolves around sitting on people with W on, your damage is linked to staying alive as much as possible with cost efficient items and having the CDR to always have W up, both of which your build fails at. In terms of damage CDR is highly, highly overrated on every champion in the game not named Ryze. On Sej you'll get more damage from stacking atmogs than you ever would from a defensive CDR build. Even champs like Skarner who have multiple cdr effects do less damage with CDR based builds than simple onhit tanky builds. You find that your build is effective but that's because a support jungler is more reliant on team utility than damage output and there are only three ways to improve your utility in this game: stay alive, aura/active items, and CDR. You're just going from a broken premise (all support junglers are shit, it's a shit build) when Maokai and Nautilus have been proven to be supremely effective with mostly the same build Sejuani goes (and Sejuani will too when she inevitably gets early jungle buffs because her problem isn't damage but how she's counterjungled). I mean, you could go Atmogs Amumu too, but it's not efficient. The difference is amumu doesn't scale with HP. The rational for atmogs sejuani is "my W scales with HP and I'm getting tons of HP, I might as well grab an atma's since with 3k HP it's an efficient item". Personally, I think it *could* work if Sejuani ever becomes viable top lane, but from the jungle? That seems pretty suspect. As far as the CDR argument goes, 4 more seconds of uptime of Northern Winds to have it only down 1 second between casts at 160-180 damage in an AoE should do more damage than AD from some Atmallet build off the top of my head, but I'd have to run the numbers. That's in addition to the extra utility you're getting from less CD between ult and more Es. I've run the numbers before and atmogs does more damage than CDR stacking. Not because of more W damage overall but because auto attacks just scale really well. If you aren't auto attacking on Sej you're not going to be in W range anyway. Even then some surprising facts emerge, like a fully stacked warmogs doing more damage than a frozen heart, or sunfire cape being one the better items on her now for EHP + DPS (though it lacks in utility).
I'm not surprised at all by the Sunfire's thing, she's one of the few champions in the game where you get scaling in advantage to the stats even if you're paying so much for the passive. Also makes sense that Warmog's does more damage than Heart, but I feel like that's a decent tradeoff since you're getting some team benefits in addition to the stats. Do you know exactly how Sunfire's vs Warmog's adds up damage wise? I've always felt bad getting Warmog's because just from the few times I tried it felt like Sunfire's was doing better if I wanted to buy a Giant's Belt.
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Well in terms of damage the only thing you get from mogs is W, so take 1270 (health) * 3% (for passive) * 5 (duration) and you get 190 damage every 10 seconds, or 19 DPS with no CDR. When comparing it to sunfire mogs makes a pretty even sacrifice of damage for more survivability (pretty easy to see, it gives more than twice the HP). But that's after you fully stack it. Until then SFC is pretty far ahead in terms of the benefit it brings to you and if you feel your EHP is fine there's not really a reason to sacrifice your DPS for it.
Before the atma's nerf/SFC buff for pure tanky DPSness I would have advocated mogs + atma's without question, assuming you could could afford to delay your damage that much. But now that assumption seems to be assuming just too much given atma's reduced pay off, if it wasn't already.
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Since spinesheath mentioned it in the Amumu thread - has anyone tried Haunting Guise on jungle Sejuani? Like Amumu, she benefits from MPen*, and it provides HP for her W.
*that doesn't take away from tenacity (ie Mercs over Sorcs), or compromise her shaky early jungle (runes/masteries).
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sejuani is one of the only champs where i can clear my jungle (3rd clear+ or so) so fast that i have extra time before it spawns again to gank. i played another game last night and looked at the timer when i got my items. 20 minutes 2xgp5, mercs, giants belt. 24 minutes - 3/2/0, fromal (2.8khp). 30 minutes - warmog (3.5k-3.9khp). at the end of the game i was 3-3-15. i had the highest gold total at the stats screen by 1k gold because of the gp5 items i bought early. if you are proactive about spending your time making gold, getting extremely farmed is easy.
i cant remember which streamer i heard say this but gp5 items pay you for waiting for ganks. even just 10sec waiting makes you extra gold, when you would make nothing without them.
and by my 6 item build goals, well, i should have explained it further. the champs i like are all extremely effective with just parts of their build. just one core item immediately makes them a terror. hec or skarner with sheen rush after gp5 is beastly. the above fromal build accomplishes the same effect. these champs dont get weaker as they add items to their initial core, they just get stronger.
the gp5 gives you that extra boost of sustain which a lot of these champs need to function, and they are all aoe so wriggles isnt a necessity. if you manage to get a few more kills or assists after sheen for example, then the gp5 is just adding even more gold to the advantage you have gained. and if you dont get kills then the gp5 is keeping you up in farm anyway. it serves so many purposes.
this style of jungling i have found effective on skarner, shyv, hec, and sejuani because they all are very similiar in abilities and scaling potential, importantly, they also benefit more from sustain gp5 then wriggles (i do get wriggles on shyv tho, but shyv is just really strong all around from beginning to end). sejuani scales the least of these champs i listed, but she still scales. at the final teamfight with fromal and atmogs in the game i mentioned above i was doing absurd damage to their squishies.
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On May 05 2012 02:50 Vaporized wrote:
sejuani is one of the only champs where i can clear my jungle (3rd clear+ or so) so fast that i have extra time before it spawns again to gank. i played another game last night and looked at the timer when i got my items. 20 minutes 2xgp5, mercs, giants belt. 24 minutes - 3/2/0, fromal (2.8khp). 30 minutes - warmog (3.5k-3.9khp). at the end of the game i was 3-3-15. i had the highest gold total at the stats screen by 1k gold because of the gp5 items i bought early. if you are proactive about spending your time making gold, getting extremely farmed is easy.
Ok. Philo + HoG (which I assume are the gp5s in question) is 1655. Mercs is 1200. Giant's Belt is 1100. That's a total of just under 4k gold that you're getting in 20 minutes.
Let's assume you clear every jungle camp immediately when it spawns. That's a pretty ludicrous assumption, right?
Small camps spawn at 1:40 and every minute thereafter, so you kill each one 18 times. Buffs are every 5 minutes starting at 1:55, so you get them 4 times. The small camp gold adds up to 164 between the three and the buff camps are 92 each, for 164 * 18 + 92 * 2 * 2 = 3688 gold in 20 minutes of absolutely perfect jungling.
Of course, this isn't factoring in baseline gold and the accelerative effects of gp5s, and ganks will also give you a boost. But you're simply not going to get 4k gold in 20 minutes on a consistent basis unless you're playing against people vastly worse than you.
i cant remember which streamer i heard say this but gp5 items pay you for waiting for ganks. even just 10sec waiting makes you extra gold, when you would make nothing without them.
No, gp5 items just mitigate the cost of waiting for ganks. You don't get "extra gold" waiting. You get more gold than someone with wriggles would while waiting for ganks. So it's less costly for Sej to camp lanes, but it's at the expense of clear times that, say, Udyr achieves with wriggles.
and by my 6 item build goals, well, i should have explained it further. the champs i like are all extremely effective with just parts of their build. just one core item immediately makes them a terror. hec or skarner with sheen rush after gp5 is beastly. the above fromal build accomplishes the same effect. these champs dont get weaker as they add items to their initial core, they just get stronger.
There are several problems here.
1) Sejuani doesn't hit godmode with 2 gp5s. She doesn't hit godmode with 2 gp5s, mercs, and giant's belt. She's strong with those items, but she is hardly "a terror". Especially since by the time you get them, the enemy AD should have at least IE and Zeal and therefore can melt you.
2) It's not a question of "is sej with frozen mallet good". It's "is frozen mallet the best choice for me to spend 3k gold on". The answer, as several people have explained, is pretty much no. As many have pointed out, for the money you put into mallet you could get Aegis and Giant's Belt, which gives you the same hp, a solid core of resistances, and a useful aura. You could also get Sunfire for more damage and some actual armor, or two Giant's Belts and an oracles, or two Giant's Belts and a Null Magic Mantle, and so on. The effectiveness of Mallet is entirely dependent on how much you get out of the slow proc, and that 100% chance better be worth 800 gold to you.
3) Everyone gets stronger as they add items. Does Sej get stronger relative to other champions though? There's not much that beats out the ridiculous multiplicative scaling of AD carries or the 1v1 dunk potential of pure melee DPS.
the gp5 gives you that extra boost of sustain which a lot of these champs need to function, and they are all aoe so wriggles isnt a necessity. if you manage to get a few more kills or assists after sheen for example, then the gp5 is just adding even more gold to the advantage you have gained. and if you dont get kills then the gp5 is keeping you up in farm anyway. it serves so many purposes.
Ok, it's true that sejuani doesn't need wriggles. But the question, again, is "Can I buy something for 1600 gold that lets me farm faster - and sufficiently faster that it outdoes the gold gained from the gp5?" In this case, I agree with you. I don't think anything outdoes gp5 in terms of gold earned, especially for someone who wants to gank as much as sejuani. I just bring this up because many people have this issue where they see "PASSIVE: 5 gold / 10 seconds" and think "IF I BUY THIS I BE MORE RICHER".
this style of jungling i have found effective on skarner, shyv, hec, and sejuani because they all are very similiar in abilities and scaling potential, importantly, they also benefit more from sustain gp5 then wriggles (i do get wriggles on shyv tho, but shyv is just really strong all around from beginning to end). sejuani scales the least of these champs i listed, but she still scales. at the final teamfight with fromal and atmogs in the game i mentioned above i was doing absurd damage to their squishies.
Skarner and Hecarim could both go either way on the Wriggles/gp5 discussion.
If the final teamfight has you with Frozen Mallet, Warmogs AND Atma's on jungle farm...
Also, very few people with those items DON'T do absurd damage to squishies. Squishies just tend to do absurd damage back. Frozen Mallet is a cost-ineffective way to boost the damage you do, and a cost-ineffective way to reduce the damage you take. Randuins will do significantly more, both in terms of team utility and survivability.
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your own math for the first part proves that it is possible to get 4k gold in 20 min. not factoring in gp5 gold, gold gained by time passed, and gank gold easily push u over 4k if you try. you dont even need to 'perfectly clear your jungle' as you say. 2-3 kills or assists is ~500g gold, gold from time and gp5 is, well i have no idea and im not going to guess. plus u dont factor in cs u get while ganking/covering lanes, which i am always on the lookout for.
the second part is semantics about gp5 and ganking.
there is no way the ad carry is going to have an IE and zeal by 20 min. an under 20 min IE means that the carry is farmed and the game is probably over already.
you also mention that udyr will clear faster with wriggles. sejuani clears almost instantly. there is no one that clears faster then her on the 3rd route +. u q-w-e and the camp is gone. sejuani already clears so fast YOU DO NOT NEED WRIGGLES TO CLEAR INSTANTLY SMALL CAMPS. having philo for mana regen, and philo and hog for gp5 means you are gaining more gold then someone who went wriggles and i guareentee u can clear as fast as they do with maxing e. this speed is what gives u extra time to gank and still farm.
wriggles is good on jungles that need to clear camps faster. speed is something hec, skarner, and sejuani all excel at without the need for wriggles. hence gp5 is a better option. this point is somewhat debatable but what is not debatable is that without wriggles these champs will be able to clear as fast as someone who has it. these are aoe champs meant to clear the jungle fast. and in hec and skarner case they have built in sustain. sejuani doesnt, which is where the philo becomes useful yet again.
i didnt save a screen of fromal, atmogs sejuani but OFTEN i finish all 3 items in a game. i really wish you could post replays and i could too so i can see what you spend your time doing if its not farming.
as for the proc on fromal being worth 800 gold. maybe u didnt read it in the post above but sejuani without fromal is a good cc champ. sejuani with fromal is the best cc champ in the game imo.
aegis is an item to fulfil a different role then how i play. i think i have the 2nd highest k/d/a ratio on sejuani out of all the champs i play, 2nd only to taric who never dies.
and in regards to fromal being cost ineffective. with 2xgp5 i can afford for something to not be the most effective item for its cost as long as it provides other benefits. when u start getting kills and assists for your team that fromal will pay for itself. and i dont even buy into the idea that fromal is not cost effective on sejuani anyway. if there is any champ that fromal IS cost effective on it is sejuani because her kit synergizes perfectly with the proc effect, and she makes use of the hp for tankyness AND damage.
edit: more generally about jungling - it comes down to time management imo. i RARELY wait more then 10 sec in brush for a gank to develop. as a jungler you have an innate disadvantage in the amount of farm available. but u have a much wider variety of ways to make gold then your average laner. the thought going through my head constantly while i jungle is, 'is what im currently doing the most effecient way for me to make gold at this point in time.' having a solid grasp of what is going on in each lane is extremely important, also. junglers that i dont get gp5 on, i tend to feel like im behind. with gp5 and a good farming jungler i am confident in being top 3 farm in the game with a bit of luck and competent teammates. and the luck usually comes in the form of who gets the killing blows, and how much cs u can scavenge from lanes.
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+ Show Spoiler +
i just played a game with skarner. 13 min 2xgp5, mercs. 16 min sheen. farming is ez. i had double the cs of the other teams jungle in the first ss.
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On May 05 2012 14:26 Vaporized wrote:+ Show Spoiler +i just played a game with skarner. 13 min 2xgp5, mercs. 16 min sheen. farming is ez. i had double the cs of the other teams jungle in the first ss.
You're facing a Xin Zhao jungle with Skarner, of course you're going to crush him in CS.
Also your arguments make entirely more sense when I see you're unranked. Go check out TopherB's profile (2100 player that's been playing Sejuani a ton in ranked recently, I see him in featured games a lot. He has 60% winrate there) and see his builds. Hint: THEY ALL HAVE AEGIS
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I've been going Philo, defensive boots, HoG, shurellias, Aegis, GA.
Basically I become unkillable but I still do pretty much no damage and I only have CDR from Shurellias and my runes/masteries
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I don't see why you would get GA? It's not like the enemy team wants you dead, unless you're the only target available.
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Not that it matters, but I prefer PStone -> HoG -> Kindle -> Glacial -> w/e.
I've rued how long it takes for her to "kick in" and thus kinda prefer Amumu.
When I played her I had a habit of leveling Q really fast. WQWEQRQQQ of sorts. Dunno. I'm retarded.
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The best thing about Sejuani compared to Mummy is that if your teammates don't follow your initation at least you don't die immediately, lol.
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Confused if you haven't updated since the mastery changes or if you honestly still open jungle with cloth +5?
It seems there are far better item openers with the changes to jungle and masteries that have taken place.
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On May 07 2012 05:34 Southlight wrote:
Not that it matters, but I prefer PStone -> HoG -> Kindle -> Glacial -> w/e.
I've rued how long it takes for her to "kick in" and thus kinda prefer Amumu.
When I played her I had a habit of leveling Q really fast. WQWEQRQQQ of sorts. Dunno. I'm retarded.
I guess I could see the lower CD being slightly better for ganking, but you really sacrifice clear time not getting levels 3-5 of W, since level 3 is when it starts becoming as good or better as other jungle AoE clears.
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On May 07 2012 06:22 Juicyfruit wrote:
The best thing about Sejuani compared to Mummy is that if your teammates don't follow your initation at least you don't die immediately, lol.
She does significantly less damage, invests more to clear faster (a level in an otherwise useless skill), and isn't as game-changing. You can die by accident once with Amumu and it hardly matters because you hit like a truck later. Also Amumu 1v1s a lot of heroes very easily.
Sejuani's mobility is obviously higher, but it still takes forever. Also I had a tendency to get really fed with Seju but a fed Seju is pretty useless.
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then add: this only works at low elo to everything i said. because it does work at low elo.
for starting item i still go cloth. this allows you to stay at high hp through your first clear, get red, and still have enough health to gank a lane at lvl 4. sejuani's first clear is brutal so i try to make it go as quick as possible.
with fromal/atmogs you can do significant damage late game. not as good as shyvana but shyv has no cc.
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On May 07 2012 07:16 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 06:22 Juicyfruit wrote:
The best thing about Sejuani compared to Mummy is that if your teammates don't follow your initation at least you don't die immediately, lol. She does significantly less damage, invests more to clear faster (a level in an otherwise useless skill), and isn't as game-changing. You can die by accident once with Amumu and it hardly matters because you hit like a truck later. Also Amumu 1v1s a lot of heroes very easily. Sejuani's mobility is obviously higher, but it still takes forever. Also I had a tendency to get really fed with Seju but a fed Seju is pretty useless.
I other words why arent you playing ashe or why isnt the jungle the hard carry
I guess the answer that cloth is requiered by this guide basically underlines this guide.
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