EPT
[Champion] Sejuani - Page 2
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
I don't think much of "support" junglers, i.e. junglers whose damage falls behind and ends up being irrelevant in the late game- I think playing like that is a disservice to your team. So, I looked around for ways to make Sejuani's damage relevant later in the game. Her physical stats aren't too hot, mostly due to a low native attack speed growth. More importantly, there are no obvious synergies with physical stats in any of her skills. Her AP ratios aren't terrible, but I've found that building AP on her doesn't feel very useful either. What I DID like about her, is the max health scaling on her W- at 2% of her max health per second, it's significant and presents an interesting synergy on which to base her item build. I build her 21/9/0 with AS marks, Armor seals, MR/level glyphs and ArPen quints Regrowth Pendant + potion to start the jungle Upgrade to Philo stone Get boots1 Build Funfire Finish Merc Treads Get a Null-magic Mantle or Negatron for some more MR (more on this later) Build Frozen Mallet Build Atmog's Finish with an MR item, either FoN, Wit's End of Maw of Mawamiwamortimaws Your W should hit like a truck, and if you add up the damage you get from her other skills and her autoattack, you manage to stay relevant damage-wise, while having colossal levels of health and survivability as well as good CC. Some people have spoken out against Mallet on her, but I disagree. The 10% slow on her autoattack is nice, but nowhere near as powerful as the 40% slow on Mallet; the item also gives good survivability AND offense because a fair amount of her damage will scale off of her max health (her W and the damage from Atma's). As to getting Atmog's, I'm not a big fan of the combo ever since the nerfs that have hit it, but I think it still makes sense if you're going to be building a lot of health on a champion like Sejuani who has another offensive synergy with max health. | ||
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NpG)Explosive
France994 Posts
On May 04 2012 06:29 Zato-1 wrote: So, despite what a lot of people are saying about how Mallet is bad for Sejuani, this is how I build her and why: I don't think much of "support" junglers, i.e. junglers whose damage falls behind and ends up being irrelevant in the late game- I think playing like that is a disservice to your team. So, I looked around for ways to make Sejuani's damage relevant later in the game. Her physical stats aren't too hot, mostly due to a low native attack speed growth. More importantly, there are no obvious synergies with physical stats in any of her skills. Her AP ratios aren't terrible, but I've found that building AP on her doesn't feel very useful either. What I DID like about her, is the max health scaling on her W- at 2% of her max health per second, it's significant and presents an interesting synergy on which to base her item build. I build her 21/9/0 with AS marks, Armor seals, MR/level glyphs and ArPen quints Regrowth Pendant + potion to start the jungle Upgrade to Philo stone Get boots1 Build Funfire Finish Merc Treads Get a Null-magic Mantle or Negatron for some more MR (more on this later) Build Frozen Mallet Build Atmog's Finish with an MR item, either FoN, Wit's End of Maw of Mawamiwamortimaws Your W should hit like a truck, and if you add up the damage you get from her other skills and her autoattack, you manage to stay relevant damage-wise, while having colossal levels of health and survivability as well as good CC. Some people have spoken out against Mallet on her, but I disagree. The 10% slow on her autoattack is nice, but nowhere near as powerful as the 40% slow on Mallet; the item also gives good survivability AND offense because a fair amount of her damage will scale off of her max health (her W and the damage from Atma's). As to getting Atmog's, I'm not a big fan of the combo ever since the nerfs that have hit it, but I think it still makes sense if you're going to be building a lot of health on a champion like Sejuani who has another offensive synergy with max health. I'm not pro, far from it, but this feels so wrong to me that I don't even know where to start. First, the whole build is extremly expensive. It takes already quite some time for a solotop to farm atmogs and you advocate getting it after items (sunfire and mallet) that already cost as much as atmogs, and on a jungler's income. Unless you get super fed or the game last forever, it's not going to happen. Second, the recipee for Mallet and Sunfire basically only gives you the passive, the base stats remain more or less the same. Sunfire gives clearing power which Sejunai doesn't need at all. The damage from sunfire isn't so high in teamfights, and it falls off as the game goes on. Mallet gives a slow, but Sejunai already slows with her AA, slows even more with permafrost. If you can get one AA, you will be a pain in the ass to kite. Mallet doesn't help you get that first AA. So overall I think you'd be spending 1625 gold for things that are already nicely covered by Sejuani's kit. Next, you're stacking a lot of healths, it makes your W hurt a lot more, but unless amumum's W, Sejunai's W has a down time. It stays on for 5 seconds, with a 10 seconds cooldown. Your build has little or no CDR (4% from masteries?) which means your W is down half the time. I'd much prefer to get 21 def masteries, glacial shroud/frozen heart and shurelya's reverie to get close to max CDR which is a 1 second downtime. Sure, the damage is lower, but you still have the base damage + scaling from base health and shurelya's health, which isn't that bad. You get atma's where again 1600g are about getting crits and more ad. You've already said your kit has no synergy with ad and your base attack speed is low, so I have no clue why you would want to get that. Same deal with maw of malmortius, you spend more golds getting ad than MR, when you make little use of ad to begin with. If you want (and can afford it) a MR item than will help you deal more damage late game you're much better off getting an abyssal scepter. You get a nice chunk of MR, all your spells are magical AoE so you have good chances to hit squishies who will be more affected by the MR reduction than by getting another health item. The AP doesn't really go to waste since all of your spells have an AP ratio. On top of that your AP carry will love you. | ||
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Vaporized
United States1471 Posts
as for the build philo, hog, mercs, mallet, atmogs is still my standard. it makes u super tanky and u do decent damage. i dont get sunfire. FH is great for armor and cdr. the mallet is actually very important. with mallet no one will escape. without it, it is possible to get away. | ||
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On May 04 2012 09:03 NpG)Explosive wrote: I'm not pro, far from it, but this feels so wrong to me that I don't even know where to start. First, the whole build is extremly expensive. It takes already quite some time for a solotop to farm atmogs and you advocate getting it after items (sunfire and mallet) that already cost as much as atmogs, and on a jungler's income. Unless you get super fed or the game last forever, it's not going to happen. ... how is this a problem, exactly? If you don't manage to build the whole item build (and you probably won't), then you just buy whatever you can afford. I listed the items in order for this purpose. Also, I'd like to point out that if you do good damage and kill things fast, you'll naturally get more gold as well. On May 04 2012 09:03 NpG)Explosive wrote:Second, the recipee for Mallet and Sunfire basically only gives you the passive, the base stats remain more or less the same. Sunfire gives clearing power which Sejunai doesn't need at all. The damage from sunfire isn't so high in teamfights, and it falls off as the game goes on. Mallet gives a slow, but Sejunai already slows with her AA, slows even more with permafrost. If you can get one AA, you will be a pain in the ass to kite. Mallet doesn't help you get that first AA. So overall I think you'd be spending 1625 gold for things that are already nicely covered by Sejuani's kit. You're missing the point of this build. I'm trying to build Sejuani as a bruiser that the enemy team can't ignore, damage-wise. The way I'm going to accomplish that is by relying heavily on Sejuani's W, which requires her to be stick to enemies for a while- something which her kit facilitates nicely. If I'm going to be playing like that, Sunfire's damage aura becomes immensely efficient offensively for the 800g price tag, and Mallet helps her chase while Permafrost and AA are on cooldown as well as being the second-most health for your item slot after Warmog's. On May 04 2012 09:03 NpG)Explosive wrote:Next, you're stacking a lot of healths, it makes your W hurt a lot more, but unless amumum's W, Sejunai's W has a down time. It stays on for 5 seconds, with a 10 seconds cooldown. Your build has little or no CDR (4% from masteries?) which means your W is down half the time. I'd much prefer to get 21 def masteries, glacial shroud/frozen heart and shurelya's reverie to get close to max CDR which is a 1 second downtime. Sure, the damage is lower, but you still have the base damage + scaling from base health and shurelya's health, which isn't that bad. I feel like you're just pointing out the obvious here. Yes, a build that is explicitly focused on offensive potential will be less focused on things like CDR and utility than other builds. I fail to see your point, however. On May 04 2012 09:03 NpG)Explosive wrote:You get atma's where again 1600g are about getting crits and more ad. You've already said your kit has no synergy with ad and your base attack speed is low, so I have no clue why you would want to get that. Same deal with maw of malmortius, you spend more golds getting ad than MR, when you make little use of ad to begin with. If you want (and can afford it) a MR item than will help you deal more damage late game you're much better off getting an abyssal scepter. You get a nice chunk of MR, all your spells are magical AoE so you have good chances to hit squishies who will be more affected by the MR reduction than by getting another health item. The AP doesn't really go to waste since all of your spells have an AP ratio. On top of that your AP carry will love you. You know what 1650g gets you, offensively? About 45 AD (BF Sword). 1655g spent to complete Atma's here gives the build roughly 68 AD and 18% crit, which is worth something like 3300g worth of base items. Sure, Sejuani's skills don't have synergy with the AD stat, but Atma's has great synergy with max health, and this entire build revolves around offensive synergies with max health. AD carries can get an IE, Phantom Dancer, Last Whisper, etc. Bruisers don't get to spend so heavily on offense; you need to spend more on items to help you survive, so offensive purchases need to be really efficient, gold-wise and item-slot-wise. Atma's Impaler, on a build that gets to roughly 4500 health, fits that criteria, and therefore makes a lot of sense. | ||
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Seiuchi
United States931 Posts
Edit: Also, I just think it's obnoxious that you've decided you HATE THE TYPE OF JUNGLER SEJUANI IS so much you're forcing a build on her when it's obvious she's just not very good at it, especially with the Atma's nerf. She's Amumu with tits, not Nocturne. | ||
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On May 04 2012 09:10 Vaporized wrote: i dont really play sejauni much anymore because she is so reliant on her team and she doesnt carry in the same sense that a skarner, shyvana, or even hecarim do out of the jungle. i jungle to carry like zato does. i havent played sej much since the ult cd buff, so maybe that helped. as for the build philo, hog, mercs, mallet, atmogs is still my standard. it makes u super tanky and u do decent damage. i dont get sunfire. FH is great for armor and cdr. the mallet is actually very important. with mallet no one will escape. without it, it is possible to get away. Give Sunfire a try. Lategame it's not as powerful, but I feel that it makes a big enough difference for when you get it that it makes sense for this build. One of the reasons I typically don't like Sunfire on my bruisers is that it has zero synergy with other offensive items (unlike AD, AS, Crit, ArPen, etc), but since I'm not building up my physical stats anyway, I find that's less of a problem. Super lategame, FH is probably superior to Sunfire, but Sunfire compensates with the midgame power it gives you IMO. | ||
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On May 04 2012 10:57 Seiuchi wrote: Edit: Also, I just think it's obnoxious that you've decided you HATE THE TYPE OF JUNGLER SEJUANI IS so much you're forcing a build on her when it's obvious she's just not very good at it, especially with the Atma's nerf. She's Amumu with tits, not Nocturne. Actually, I have no idea if she's good with this build or not. For the past two months, my internet connection has been working like ass and my latency makes LoL unplayable for me, so I haven't been able to properly test this. Therefore, one of the things I can still do is come up with builds and stuff and share them. Of course, most of the responses I get heap shit on me and my build without ever having tried it. And I'm the one being obnoxious? Goddamn. | ||
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NpG)Explosive
France994 Posts
On May 04 2012 10:50 Zato-1 wrote: ... how is this a problem, exactly? If you don't manage to build the whole item build (and you probably won't), then you just buy whatever you can afford. I listed the items in order for this purpose. Also, I'd like to point out that if you do good damage and kill things fast, you'll naturally get more gold as well. This a problem in the sense that you want to buy a lot of stuff because it will go well with your atma's but if you never reach that point, it is much less cost effective. On May 04 2012 10:50 Zato-1 wrote: If I'm going to be playing like that, Sunfire's damage aura becomes immensely efficient offensively for the 800g price tag, and Mallet helps her chase while Permafrost and AA are on cooldown as well as being the second-most health for your item slot after Warmog's. I have only played a few games as Sejuani so I can't tell how weak/strong her passive is stick to the target, but I think people need some really good MS buffs to outrun you if you can apply your passive. Also if for whatever reason you're not in range to auto attack, then shurelya's will be more effective than mallet. On May 04 2012 10:50 Zato-1 wrote: I feel like you're just pointing out the obvious here. Yes, a build that is explicitly focused on offensive potential will be less focused on things like CDR and utility than other builds. I fail to see your point, however. My point is maybe getting CDR is smarter than getting more health at this point. As you've said ad carries build around getting ad, crit, AS and arpen because it's more efficient to get some of these stats than stacking only one of them. You don't see ad carries going boots into 3 BT and then only considering getting AS/crit. Similarly ap casters can build around scaling (usually ap), CDR and Mpen to improve their damage. CDR isn't so great if the cd on your main spells are so long that even if cd you have no garrantee that you'll get the chance to use them several times (very true for most ultimates) so your better off just maxing scaling and mpen. But for Sejunai, if you plan on doing most of your damage through your W, going from no CDR to max CDR means you have your W up 80% of the time instead of 50% of the time, it's a huge dirrence imo. Also notice I mentionned getting abyssal if you want more damage, rather than getting another health item. Getting that magic pen is going to do more for your damage than getting a bit more of health scaling. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
this is how I build her and why Actually, I have no idea if she's good with this build or not okay | ||
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Seiuchi
United States931 Posts
On May 04 2012 11:20 Zato-1 wrote: Actually, I have no idea if she's good with this build or not. For the past two months, my internet connection has been working like ass and my latency makes LoL unplayable for me, so I haven't been able to properly test this. Therefore, one of the things I can still do is come up with builds and stuff and share them. Of course, most of the responses I get heap shit on me and my build without ever having tried it. And I'm the one being obnoxious? Goddamn. I've tried Mallet on Sejuani, it's just really bad. I've played like 100 games of her with various builds, but when it comes down to it she's most effective with support jungler builds because she's a support jungler and she has numbers that incentivize support jungler items. When you don't have a defensive steroid and your damage revolves around sitting on people with W on, your damage is linked to staying alive as much as possible with cost efficient items and having the CDR to always have W up, both of which your build fails at. You're just going from a broken premise (all support junglers are shit, it's a shit build) when Maokai and Nautilus have been proven to be supremely effective with mostly the same build Sejuani goes (and Sejuani will too when she inevitably gets early jungle buffs because her problem isn't damage but how she's counterjungled). I mean, you could go Atmogs Amumu too, but it's not efficient. | ||
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Vaporized
United States1471 Posts
there is a place for support sejuani but i think if you get fed in the jungle (2-3 assists, and good cs, which past the first clear sejauni is very fast) then going a fromal/atmogs build is better. going support on a jungle seems like a waste to me. with proper ganking (ie. only going to gank when u see a lane that is overextended, or your jungle is clear) it is possible to have very good cs on most junglers. i routinely am first in cs in the entire game on shyv, skarn, sejauni, hec, and can often be 100 cs ahead of the other jungle because i keep my jungle clear. ganking and getting kills EFFECIENTLY is my first priority, keeping my jungle clear is a close second. Having a farmed jungle who is a threat is a HUGE advantage if the other team's jungle went support. and the vast majority of the time it is possible to get farmed on a jungle. out of the ~300 or so jungle games ive played i would easily say 90% of those i am in the top 3 of farm in the game (gp5 if you dont get early kills works to increase farm also, and if you have an advantage then gp5 just puts you more in the lead). i was farmed on sejuani in the game i just played and the other team would run from me. winning the game for your team is better then supporting them, especially at lower elo's. edit: naut and maokai are different from sejuani in that they do not gain damage from building tank items. sejuani gains damage from building health. i think its fairly obvious that stacking health on her is intended to be a viable path and from ~40 games doing just that i can tell you it is viable. | ||
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Slaughter
United States20254 Posts
 her.and naut are my fav junglers right.now. On her i generally.go.the g10s with shyerlias and randuins. That with exhaust and some hp itema plus like the cdr item that builds into frozen heart and some mr. Their carries wont do shit in fights when your.running.smite exhaust plus raundins and all your cc. Plus your godly ult...sooo fun I also dont quite get the need to build dmg on her. You will bw going aftrr squishies and you will do decent dmg to them cause they are by definition squishy. You wont be doing shit to tanks and minimal dmg to bruisers but your not the primary dmg dealer, its the carriea job to do dmg your job is disruption and peeling. | ||
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Vaporized
United States1471 Posts
On May 04 2012 12:37 Slaughter wrote: I also dont quite get the need to build dmg on her. You will bw going aftrr squishies and you will do decent dmg to them cause they are by definition squishy. You wont be doing shit to tanks and minimal dmg to bruisers but your not the primary dmg dealer, its the carriea job to do dmg your job is disruption and peeling. youre not building damage. you build health. which gives you damage and makes u tanky. | ||
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Seiuchi
United States931 Posts
On May 04 2012 12:30 Vaporized wrote: i just went 7-0-8 with fromal/atmogs juan. it is an effective build and you do respectable damage. there is a place for support sejuani but i think if you get fed in the jungle (2-3 assists, and good cs, which past the first clear sejauni is very fast) then going a fromal/atmogs build is better. going support on a jungle seems like a waste to me. with proper ganking (ie. only going to gank when u see a lane that is overextended, or your jungle is clear) it is possible to have very good cs on most junglers. i routinely am first in cs in the entire game on shyv, skarn, sejauni, hec, and can often be 100 cs ahead of the other jungle because i keep my jungle clear. ganking and getting kills EFFECIENTLY is my first priority, keeping my jungle clear is a close second. Having a farmed jungle who is a threat is a HUGE advantage if the other team's jungle went support. and the vast majority of the time it is possible to get farmed on a jungle. out of the ~300 or so jungle games ive played i would easily say 90% of those i am in the top 3 of farm in the game (gp5 if you dont get early kills works to increase farm also, and if you have an advantage then gp5 just puts you more in the lead). i was farmed on sejuani in the game i just played and the other team would run from me. winning the game for your team is better then supporting them, especially at lower elo's. edit: naut and maokai are different from sejuani in that they do not gain damage from building tank items. sejuani gains damage from building health. i think its fairly obvious that stacking health on her is intended to be a viable path and from ~40 games doing just that i can tell you it is viable. There's a difference between stacking health with items that amplify her effectiveness and are more cost effective and throwing money at HP which isn't helping her as much. Frozen Mallet's just really expensive when you're paying for things Sejuani doesn't need (AD, slow proc) and paying a lot more than value for something you do (HP). If you're tons of kills up on the enemy team, you can waste gold on less effective items and do well because you just have such a gold advantage, but you're not compounding it as much as you could. Even if you get fed as Sejuani, you're still adding more value to the team by adding a faster Aegis or faster Frozen Heart or Randuin's because you just completely sit in the middle of their team and wreck them. Even Sunfire's is more efficient at that point as a luxury item for damage and survivability. You're hitting 200 damage a second of W at that point regardless, so instead of some crappy AD you don't even use effectively because you're not building AS and lack armor pen, just live longer and use your abilities more. | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
On May 04 2012 12:02 Seiuchi wrote: I've tried Mallet on Sejuani, it's just really bad. I've played like 100 games of her with various builds, but when it comes down to it she's most effective with support jungler builds because she's a support jungler and she has numbers that incentivize support jungler items. When you don't have a defensive steroid and your damage revolves around sitting on people with W on, your damage is linked to staying alive as much as possible with cost efficient items and having the CDR to always have W up, both of which your build fails at. In terms of damage CDR is highly, highly overrated on every champion in the game not named Ryze. On Sej you'll get more damage from stacking atmogs than you ever would from a defensive CDR build. Even champs like Skarner who have multiple cdr effects do less damage with CDR based builds than simple onhit tanky builds. You find that your build is effective but that's because a support jungler is more reliant on team utility than damage output and there are only three ways to improve your utility in this game: stay alive, aura/active items, and CDR. You're just going from a broken premise (all support junglers are shit, it's a shit build) when Maokai and Nautilus have been proven to be supremely effective with mostly the same build Sejuani goes (and Sejuani will too when she inevitably gets early jungle buffs because her problem isn't damage but how she's counterjungled). I mean, you could go Atmogs Amumu too, but it's not efficient. The difference is amumu doesn't scale with HP. The rational for atmogs sejuani is "my W scales with HP and I'm getting tons of HP, I might as well grab an atma's since with 3k HP it's an efficient item". Personally, I think it *could* work if Sejuani ever becomes viable top lane, but from the jungle? That seems pretty suspect. | ||
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Vaporized
United States1471 Posts
i would argue that fromal is actually cost effective on sejuani in that it amplifies her overall ability to do her job, its like it makes her entire kit better. with fromal nothing will escape, ever. this makes getting kills for yourself and your team easier. your auto attacks are instantly a 50% slow. that is a huge advantage, and if you cant see that then you havent tried it. i rush fromal first after gp5, thats how core i consider it. you can dominate with fromal on sejuani. ive had games where i go 17-0, try doing that with aegis. with hog and fromal your w does a lot of damage, with the slow from fromal + sejuani's abilities it is impossible to get away. not to mention that if the game goes in your favor and you have 3k hp at 20-25 minutes and 3.5-4k at 30 min when you add warmog, you are pretty damn hard to kill (its already tough to kill me with just hog and fromal, and then adding warmog makes it silly). | ||
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HazMat
United States17077 Posts
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Seiuchi
United States931 Posts
On May 04 2012 14:32 Vaporized wrote: i have no problem getting farmed on sejuani and completing fromal and atmogs in a normal game. i start philo mercs hog. i prefer playing jungles where gp5 works instead of wriggles because that double gp5 is a huge advantage. i go wqwe, and then max e from that point. you clear waves of minions or small camps in one q-w-e combo. you farm so fucking fast and max e is good for ganking and actually getting kills also. i would argue that fromal is actually cost effective on sejuani in that it amplifies her overall ability to do her job, its like it makes her entire kit better. with fromal nothing will escape, ever. this makes getting kills for yourself and your team easier. your auto attacks are instantly a 50% slow. that is a huge advantage, and if you cant see that then you havent tried it. i rush fromal first after gp5, thats how core i consider it. you can dominate with fromal on sejuani. ive had games where i go 17-0, try doing that with aegis. with hog and fromal your w does a lot of damage, with the slow from fromal + sejuani's abilities it is impossible to get away. You can have an Aegis and a Giant's Belt for the cost of a Frozen Mallet, have more HP, and actually have resistance values to last longer in fights and help your team. Sejuani has enough CC where targets shouldn't be escaping regardless of another slow. It's not like I haven't tried it, it's just not as good as another build path. On May 04 2012 13:32 phyvo wrote: In terms of damage CDR is highly, highly overrated on every champion in the game not named Ryze. On Sej you'll get more damage from stacking atmogs than you ever would from a defensive CDR build. Even champs like Skarner who have multiple cdr effects do less damage with CDR based builds than simple onhit tanky builds. You find that your build is effective but that's because a support jungler is more reliant on team utility than damage output and there are only three ways to improve your utility in this game: stay alive, aura/active items, and CDR. The difference is amumu doesn't scale with HP. The rational for atmogs sejuani is "my W scales with HP and I'm getting tons of HP, I might as well grab an atma's since with 3k HP it's an efficient item". Personally, I think it *could* work if Sejuani ever becomes viable top lane, but from the jungle? That seems pretty suspect. As far as the CDR argument goes, 4 more seconds of uptime of Northern Winds to have it only down 1 second between casts at 160-180 damage in an AoE should do more damage than AD from some Atmallet build off the top of my head, but I'd have to run the numbers. That's in addition to the extra utility you're getting from less CD between ult and more Es. | ||
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Vaporized
United States1471 Posts
ive found that sejuani is weak early, you depend on your team to assist you in getting kills. if you get those kills or assists, u just need like 2, and get a small advantage (early gp5) you can snowball and carry hard. i was surprised a champ like sejuani has that capability, but she definetly does, i do it game after game. and aegis isnt the way to get there. if youre not interested in exploiting sejuani's potential then fine, but she is certainly not just a support jungle. hog + fromal rush makes you SUPER tanky at that point in that game. if the teams are fairly even it will take a focused effort to bring you down. and then when the other team's damage is able to cut through your hp (shock! it happens around the time you finish warmog) then you add resists and you remain near unkillable. there are not many (any?) other champs that can build straight hp and also increase their damage at the same time. it is a unique ability of sejuani and i take advantage of that. | ||
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