EPTHowever, the health DBlade stacking gives isn't, in my opinion, equal to or better than the massive lifesteal and armor granted from Wriggle's. I could be wrong, but I feel stronger going into the mid game having a Wriggle's than a few Blades.
[Champion] Riven - Page 7
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
However, the health DBlade stacking gives isn't, in my opinion, equal to or better than the massive lifesteal and armor granted from Wriggle's. I could be wrong, but I feel stronger going into the mid game having a Wriggle's than a few Blades. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On October 28 2011 04:22 Requizen wrote: Riven is a great jungler. I've done DBlade starts, and I've done Wriggle's starts. Both work fine, but I find Wriggle's to be much more effective. Plus, the free ward goes a long way to give you map control. Of course, DBlade stacking will give you a lot of early game dominance, so you can take that into account if you want. However, the health DBlade stacking gives isn't, in my opinion, equal to or better than the massive lifesteal and armor granted from Wriggle's. I could be wrong, but I feel stronger going into the mid game having a Wriggle's than a few Blades. What od you usually get outside of wriggles and boots? | ||
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CeriseCherries
6170 Posts
Idk i keep playing with my friend who is pretty good with Riven and we go bot with Riven with a not-actually-support-support (like zilean or blitz)... I guess it works out pretty well for us... Its so hard to out run her and she actually can do a shitton of damage... | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
@Cerise, Riven is great in lane, better than in jungle. That's the sentiment because she requires so much farm for her items, so if you farm well in lane you can get BT/GA/IE so fast and just crush the game like that. I never start Blue in jungle, I just go Wolves-Wraiths-Golems-Gank or Red (or back if you fail). Starting blue has the CDR perk, but it's not necessary or worth it imo. | ||
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billy5000
United States865 Posts
On October 28 2011 04:05 Navi wrote: @billy:renek, irelia, gp, garen, yorick, teemo, akali, nasus renek: open cloth 5 pot (lol) and go aggressive from level 1, if he doesn't open cloth 5 pot like most renekton's who think they're the strongest shit toplane and that they can always open boots3 then he will have to go back or die at level 2-3. armor runepage only solidifies your advantage if you own armor quints irelia: i hate this matchup against irelias who rush wriggles with me, if they go gold/5 or something though its a playable matchup. you boss her around pre 6 and can kill her at 6 if she tries to stay at medium - lowish health. this matchup is probably the most flexible, dependent on summoners and builds from both sides. in terms of playstyle, just getting as much free damage as possible by using your e and w to force good trades for you (like if you can w or q your way in and e out, if she gets her stun off late or too early the trade is usually good for you; if you are just trying to brute force trades because she didn't open cloth5pot which imo toplaners against riven should do, then you can e->w in and trades will be good because she will have to damage through your shield or just run away for 1 second for the shield to run out). i'm willing to play this matchup with other people for more experience for myself and others, add me in game gp: dependent on summoner spells. if you have summmoner spell parity (i.e. flash and 1 combatitive spell on both sides, or flash and teleport on both sides) you can crush him like you crush every other laner. if he has the summoner spell advantage which many solo queue GPs i've played against have had, then i play safe until level 2 because GP at level 1 is even more of a beast than riven just because that exhaust / ignite will own you against a GP that knows his limits well. bad GP's will run away when you start q'ing on them at level 1, good GP's will stand and fight and use their additional summoner and flash to secure the kill. at level 2 and on though riven's kit is just too strong to hold down, and if you ever get a lead in the lane its hard to lose it because she can come out ahead in trades by a large margin. garen: like other toplaners, if riven runs enough armor on her runepage and cloth5pot, she shouldn't have trouble with garen. as in he's pretty damn helpless as he can start getting zoned from lane as soon as he runs out of health potions. yorick: i don't have enough good experience against yorick to give good advice, would be willing to play against yorick players. but post wriggles you can dominate him hard, especially if he's building manamune / tear first. teemo: again, not enough experience. ranged and casters are an interesting matchup though, and i generally just try to lasthit and get aggressive whenever my q's can bring me into aggro range. at level 3 you have so much mobility that even ranged people have trouble getting away; teemo's move quick makes this interesting, but his autoattack range is in turn so small that riven should be able to catch him. akali and nasus: riven just poops on these guys so hard it's not even funny, every time i've run into one i've zoned or killed them very early. akalis in particular have this mentality that they are the best at level 1 in terms of trading and walking away from just about everybody, so if they ever q me instead of lasthitting a creep i just q and auto up to them and give them 3x the damage back and the qq ensues. nasus is nowhere near as strong as riven early on, so you can just pressure him to back really early, and always look for an opportunity if he ever gets to 200-250 hp to flash w auto q->auto-> e etc if he flashes to burst him. if he lasts in lane until level 6, try to gain the experience advantage and then r -> flash -> w -> r active burst him if he's low enough. but this usually isn't an issue because he's just so weak in lane lol bookmarking this, TY :D | ||
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laundrycat
Australia5 Posts
On October 28 2011 07:22 Gahlo wrote: What od you usually get outside of wriggles and boots? I've been playing Riven exclusively as a Jungler, usually because someone else always calls for solo top  . Anyway the runes I run on Riven are:7x Armour Pen Marks 2x Flat Damage Marks 9x Flat Armour Seals 9x MR/lvl Glyphs 3x Flat Damage Quints Masteries are 21/0/9. I've come to a point where I always start with a DBlade first, I used to go 2 DBlades into more beefier items, however I think going one DBlade then transitioning into Wriggles works out best because of the stats you get from it really help out when you try to go for your next core items. Starting out with a DBlade first for jungle really provides for safe jungling as well, the only scary part of it is when you going for your first rotation of Wolves > Wraiths > Golems that the golems may get you down low. However you can counter this by making sure you have a really healthy start by having someone AoE or damage the wolf camp as you start it (make sure you start attacking it first, don't let someone leash the wolves). Additionally, I feel that going for the DBlade first enables you to go for that counter jungle and when exchanging blows with the enemy jungler you can easily come out ahead. This is all provided that you know where they are starting and who they're jungling with. Also, I take DBlade first because it really boosts your skill scalings with the stats it provides, without having to sacrifice runes for something like 9x Flat Damage Marks. Anyway to answer your question, I follow closely to Navi's build and I start to build towards a main damage item that uses the BF sword - Infinity Edge or Bloodthirster is up to you. Personally I think if you go for Wriggles you can hold off getting that first Bloodthirster and get the Infinity Edge for that raw damage. Otherwise if you happened to have taken the 2 DBlade path then getting that Bloodthirster is better. Of course, if you find yourself that CC is a big problem, or that being bursted down is really annoying, then opt to take a Quick Silver Sash or a Giant's Belt somewhere in between, I feel those two items really help. What you choose to upgrade the Giant's Belt is up to you really, Warmogs and Frozen Mallet both work equally well. Hope this helps. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
While I still like Wriggle's better (logically it should be the best choice against top-laners you want to free-farm against), I think the amount of early-midgame burst 2xDBlade+Bruta can give you should be considered. After 2xDBlade+Bruta, his full combo was literally capable of one-shotting the Teemo he was against in lane. It's also worth noting that Westrice took Ignite instead of TP to further this combo potential. I don't think it plays to Riven's strengths (I think West is trying too hard to build her toward a midgame assassin-y power curve, and not as a late-game carry), but it definitely works. The other salient point is how different his masteries were--15/0/15 reaching for movespeed and flash masteries instead of the end-tier offense masteries. Again, not sure if I agree with it because of how her passive procs crit, making Lethality insanely good on her, but it's still food for thought. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23342 Posts
I also don't buy into the wriggles logic since you're all about trading them down and threatening a kill with ulti if you have to buy wriggles its to comprise a lane you're already going to lose, unless they are just super good at poking. EDIT: I "beat" riven as nasus by just letting myself get zoned from some of the cs and farming a lot especially under tower and just sustaining her damage and she died 2 or 3 times to ganks since she worked so hard trying to kill me when I just played safe and I ended up getting more cs out of it. I think riven is only strong against laners who don't have any sustain otherwise you just push to their tower and they heal there. | ||
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Woony
Germany6657 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23342 Posts
She doesn't have the strongest scaling in the game, just best AD scaling. Steriods are pretty huge because when you have nearly 2.5 attacks per second at nearly 100% crit with nearly 300 AD (lategame tristana) you're putting out a hell of a lot more damage than riven is. | ||
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Navi
5286 Posts
most AD carries lack the cc or small scale mobility that riven has, and very few have comparable AoE. 6 item tristana is certainly one of or the highest 1v1 damage in the game, but riven has the kit (e +q and w to get and stun the carry, and 3rd q to knock up, and r to execute if they jump or flash away) to 1v1 them even lategame. the fact that your passive with infinity edge and 2-3 other AD items can do over 1k damage in crits to champions means that you definetly have 1hko potential in 1v1s against squishies, and that you do good damage even to tanks. like on most physical damage dealers, brutalizer has its place, especially when you gain a lead early in lane. if you can do true physical damage early game it usually seals a lead very easily, as well as giving you more oomph midgame. going ignite or exhaust definetly gives you more lane strength and instaburst potential, but it comes down to whether you prefer that or the additional dragon control and farm flexibility that teleport gives you. its all playstyle | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 30 2011 02:19 Slayer91 wrote: Burst melee champions are always somewhat of a volatile thing. Lategame you can die under CC very, very easily and you will only be able to burst down squishies fast. She doesn't have the strongest scaling in the game, just best AD scaling. Steriods are pretty huge because when you have nearly 2.5 attacks per second at nearly 100% crit with nearly 300 AD (lategame tristana) you're putting out a hell of a lot more damage than riven is. That's the thing. Late-game, she's not a burst melee champion. You're 100% a sustained damage autoattack monster late-game, which is why CDR isn't overly important. Your skills are only there for utility + to keep your passive rolling, which makes every one of your autoattacks worth 1.8 times the amount someone else's would be with the same AD (passive + ult AD multiplier). Riven's R is stronger steroid than Tristana's Q late-game because it has multiplicative gold value. Tristana's Q is essentially worth a fixed 2k-ish gold (2 Recurve Bows) whereas the gold value of Riven's R goes up as the game progresses because it's gold value is based on her own AD (on gold value, it passes Trist's Q at around 350 bonus AD--obviously unattainable midgame, but actually reachable in 6-item scenarios). The only comparable steroids are Kog-maw's W and Vayne's W, and their gold value multiplies off enemy defensive stats, not your own offensive stats. And that's not even considering the insane uptime Riven's R has. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23342 Posts
And the thing about her AD steriod on passive is it means getting attack speed isn't useful at all so the steriod on AD won't get full value because you can't scale it was attack speed. I still think melee range is the main problem though. You can never afford to build the same items an AD carry will because you'll just die. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
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Seiuchi
United States931 Posts
On October 30 2011 03:30 Gahlo wrote: Well, an AD caster item has been in testing for a couple weeks, accoridng to Morello, wonder what it's introduction will bring to Riven's playstyle. People on forums crying and eventual scaling nerfs because she has an item she synergizes too well with | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On October 30 2011 03:30 Gahlo wrote: Well, an AD caster item has been in testing for a couple weeks, accoridng to Morello, wonder what it's introduction will bring to Riven's playstyle. iunno...i always thought manamune was an AD caster item :O | ||
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billy5000
United States865 Posts
anyway, how do you feel about 2 dblades instead of wriggles? i've seen westrice open with boots and buy 2 dblades on his first trip back. his choice seems much cheaper and yet still effective. and you can always get a vamp scepter to maximize sustain. what's your take? :\ | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 01 2011 02:40 billy5000 wrote: still saving up to buy riven.. anyway, how do you feel about 2 dblades instead of wriggles? i've seen westrice open with boots and buy 2 dblades on his first trip back. his choice seems much cheaper and yet still effective. and you can always get a vamp scepter to maximize sustain. what's your take? :\ Situational, and based on playstyle. West's 2xDBlade+Bruta trades lane sustain, farming power, and gold value (you do have to sell the DBlades later, and the Wriggle's is generating gold value through the wards) for early game burst and fighting power. It plays her toward a more mid-game assassin-y power curve, but you DO have to get kills off of it to make it worthwhile. Riven is ok trading farm with basically anybody she goes against top lane, so unless you expect 2xDBlade+Bruta to actually net you kills (unlikely against tanky top laners that come to lane with 80+ armor and 5 potions), it's better off to transition into a harass or free-farm lane than to try and burst-kill people. I'll also note that in one of EG's scrims, West went Wriggle's instead of 2xDblade+Bruta. It's the safer build, and I'm guessing he opted for it either based on matchup, or on the fact that forcing solo kills in a competitive game is pretty damn unlikely. | ||
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Ayestes
United States106 Posts
On a side note, I recall the designer of Riven saying that crit does not scale on her passive. Was I mistaken? | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
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