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Previous Olaf ult was "I reach you", current Olaf ult is "I fight you", is it that hard? No, you don't fucking pop your ult right at the start of a fight. How do you think people did when his ult used to only grant immunity, but not remove cc like it does now?
If you pop your ult at the same time as Ghost when you're a whole screen away then you deserve to get mauled on your way to your target. It's totally worth it to eat a cc while your team initiates if you can still get into the fight afterwards and then burn your ult and use the massive AD steroid to kill stuff.
Also the way the min. range on Q works means that if your target is trying to run from you (and has already been slowed) you can very easily chain slow it because you pick up the axe almost immediatly if you run toward it right after the cast (which you should in a chase), so you can hopefully chain casts before they can zigzag.
Yes, if your target stands still, you can't throw your axe at your feet, pick it up immediatly, then throw it again while weaving a single auto in-between each axe. Guess what? That's the point. Smash said over and over and over again since the very first thread where ideas about Olaf were publicly discussed that one of the goals of the changes was to get rid of the chain axe in close combat.
The problem is that it's hard for Olaf to stick to the target after he's reached it once/slowed it, to make use of his AS. If you can get rid of that, then his dps is pretty high as long as you have an AD-based offensive item and manage W's cooldown right.
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On October 11 2013 04:20 Alaric wrote:
Previous Olaf ult was "I reach you", current Olaf ult is "I fight you", is it that hard? No, you don't fucking pop your ult right at the start of a fight. How do you think people did when his ult used to only grant immunity, but not remove cc like it does now?
If you pop your ult at the same time as Ghost when you're a whole screen away then you deserve to get mauled on your way to your target. It's totally worth it to eat a cc while your team initiates if you can still get into the fight afterwards and then burn your ult and use the massive AD steroid to kill stuff.
Also the way the min. range on Q works means that if your target is trying to run from you (and has already been slowed) you can very easily chain slow it because you pick up the axe almost immediatly if you run toward it right after the cast (which you should in a chase), so you can hopefully chain casts before they can zigzag.
Yes, if your target stands still, you can't throw your axe at your feet, pick it up immediatly, then throw it again while weaving a single auto in-between each axe. Guess what? That's the point. Smash said over and over and over again since the very first thread where ideas about Olaf were publicly discussed that one of the goals of the changes was to get rid of the chain axe in close combat.
The problem is that it's hard for Olaf to stick to the target after he's reached it once/slowed it, to make use of his AS. If you can get rid of that, then his dps is pretty high as long as you have an AD-based offensive item and manage W's cooldown right.
Champion with no movespeed increase, no bonus tenactiy, no real bonus defenses, one weak skillshot slow, is going to reach his target in a teamfight. Right. Your funny. Im pretty sure any character with any movement ability can just laugh at olaf if he doesn't have ghost+ ult up.
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On October 11 2013 04:20 Alaric wrote:
Previous Olaf ult was "I reach you", current Olaf ult is "I fight you", is it that hard? No, you don't fucking pop your ult right at the start of a fight. How do you think people did when his ult used to only grant immunity, but not remove cc like it does now?
If you pop your ult at the same time as Ghost when you're a whole screen away then you deserve to get mauled on your way to your target. It's totally worth it to eat a cc while your team initiates if you can still get into the fight afterwards and then burn your ult and use the massive AD steroid to kill stuff.
Also the way the min. range on Q works means that if your target is trying to run from you (and has already been slowed) you can very easily chain slow it because you pick up the axe almost immediatly if you run toward it right after the cast (which you should in a chase), so you can hopefully chain casts before they can zigzag.
Yes, if your target stands still, you can't throw your axe at your feet, pick it up immediatly, then throw it again while weaving a single auto in-between each axe. Guess what? That's the point. Smash said over and over and over again since the very first thread where ideas about Olaf were publicly discussed that one of the goals of the changes was to get rid of the chain axe in close combat.
The problem is that it's hard for Olaf to stick to the target after he's reached it once/slowed it, to make use of his AS. If you can get rid of that, then his dps is pretty high as long as you have an AD-based offensive item and manage W's cooldown right.
How do you get rid of that though? Is bonus AS a coherent addition to Olaf's kit? I mean he has so much Bonus AS that Botrk doesn't even make sense on him from an efficiency POV (its just kinda OP vs. who he is facing in lane). I would say, Rid him of bonus AS on W (Passive is more than enough) and give W meaningful bonuses akin to Raise Morale.
On October 11 2013 04:36 dae wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2013 04:20 Alaric wrote:
Previous Olaf ult was "I reach you", current Olaf ult is "I fight you", is it that hard? No, you don't fucking pop your ult right at the start of a fight. How do you think people did when his ult used to only grant immunity, but not remove cc like it does now?
If you pop your ult at the same time as Ghost when you're a whole screen away then you deserve to get mauled on your way to your target. It's totally worth it to eat a cc while your team initiates if you can still get into the fight afterwards and then burn your ult and use the massive AD steroid to kill stuff.
Also the way the min. range on Q works means that if your target is trying to run from you (and has already been slowed) you can very easily chain slow it because you pick up the axe almost immediatly if you run toward it right after the cast (which you should in a chase), so you can hopefully chain casts before they can zigzag.
Yes, if your target stands still, you can't throw your axe at your feet, pick it up immediatly, then throw it again while weaving a single auto in-between each axe. Guess what? That's the point. Smash said over and over and over again since the very first thread where ideas about Olaf were publicly discussed that one of the goals of the changes was to get rid of the chain axe in close combat.
The problem is that it's hard for Olaf to stick to the target after he's reached it once/slowed it, to make use of his AS. If you can get rid of that, then his dps is pretty high as long as you have an AD-based offensive item and manage W's cooldown right. Champion with no movespeed increase, no bonus tenactiy, no real bonus defenses, one weak skillshot slow, is going to reach his target in a teamfight. Right. Your funny. Im pretty sure any character with any movement ability can just laugh at olaf if he doesn't have ghost+ ult up.
This really seems to be the problem. Olaf is balanced in an imaginary world where Ghost has a 60 Second Cooldown.
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On October 11 2013 04:20 Alaric wrote:
Previous Olaf ult was "I reach you", current Olaf ult is "I fight you", is it that hard? No, you don't fucking pop your ult right at the start of a fight. How do you think people did when his ult used to only grant immunity, but not remove cc like it does now?
If you pop your ult at the same time as Ghost when you're a whole screen away then you deserve to get mauled on your way to your target. It's totally worth it to eat a cc while your team initiates if you can still get into the fight afterwards and then burn your ult and use the massive AD steroid to kill stuff.
Also the way the min. range on Q works means that if your target is trying to run from you (and has already been slowed) you can very easily chain slow it because you pick up the axe almost immediatly if you run toward it right after the cast (which you should in a chase), so you can hopefully chain casts before they can zigzag.
Yes, if your target stands still, you can't throw your axe at your feet, pick it up immediatly, then throw it again while weaving a single auto in-between each axe. Guess what? That's the point. Smash said over and over and over again since the very first thread where ideas about Olaf were publicly discussed that one of the goals of the changes was to get rid of the chain axe in close combat.
The problem is that it's hard for Olaf to stick to the target after he's reached it once/slowed it, to make use of his AS. If you can get rid of that, then his dps is pretty high as long as you have an AD-based offensive item and manage W's cooldown right.
I have misgivings about the state of his ult right now, but that's a complex issue.
The minimum range on his Q, while it works for jungling(awkward, but it works), it's absolutely trash for laning against people. You win against people who don't understand how it works and try to run after getting slowed. But if you just go fight olaf when his axe is thrown, he's fucked. Just body block, force him to fight you and what the fuck does olaf do. He can't throw an axe to disengage, doesn't have the sustained DPS to fight(W doesn't even come close to matching old axe spam). Like at minimum I'd like to see Olaf be able to phase through units that have been hit by axe so you don't get fucked by pathing AI while trying to make your way to the axe while keeping up dps.
Also you have to remember that prenerf olaf(the one that was at like 47% soloq winrate) had a 10/20/30 arpen on his ultimate. That's how much you have to make up in damage just to get him to a useful state.
This really seems to be the problem. Olaf is balanced in an imaginary world where Ghost has a 60 Second Cooldown
Well if Olaf had old garen W(the MS+defense), and maybe the lifesteal is 1/2 effectiveness passive, that'd solve a whole bunch of problems right there.
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On October 11 2013 04:36 dae wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2013 04:20 Alaric wrote:
Previous Olaf ult was "I reach you", current Olaf ult is "I fight you", is it that hard? No, you don't fucking pop your ult right at the start of a fight. How do you think people did when his ult used to only grant immunity, but not remove cc like it does now?
If you pop your ult at the same time as Ghost when you're a whole screen away then you deserve to get mauled on your way to your target. It's totally worth it to eat a cc while your team initiates if you can still get into the fight afterwards and then burn your ult and use the massive AD steroid to kill stuff.
Also the way the min. range on Q works means that if your target is trying to run from you (and has already been slowed) you can very easily chain slow it because you pick up the axe almost immediatly if you run toward it right after the cast (which you should in a chase), so you can hopefully chain casts before they can zigzag.
Yes, if your target stands still, you can't throw your axe at your feet, pick it up immediatly, then throw it again while weaving a single auto in-between each axe. Guess what? That's the point. Smash said over and over and over again since the very first thread where ideas about Olaf were publicly discussed that one of the goals of the changes was to get rid of the chain axe in close combat.
The problem is that it's hard for Olaf to stick to the target after he's reached it once/slowed it, to make use of his AS. If you can get rid of that, then his dps is pretty high as long as you have an AD-based offensive item and manage W's cooldown right. Champion with no movespeed increase, no bonus tenactiy, no real bonus defenses, one weak skillshot slow, is going to reach his target in a teamfight. Right. Your funny. Im pretty sure any character with any movement ability can just laugh at olaf if he doesn't have ghost+ ult up.
Yeah, but burning CC as a dude who built tanky items is good. I dunno, if you just dont press R and you "dont reach a target" then why the hell are your AD and Mid Lander not just trucking kids because you are being focused with your defensive steroid still up.
I keep hearing people say that Olaf NEEDS to build damage items to be successful or do the same amount of damage he used to do in his old iteration... why does he need to do the same amount of damage? Last I checked even without a damage item Olaf still trucks AD carries if he gets to touch them in a teamfight with any decent amount of armor and tanky things without any damage items at all.You dont need to do the same amount of damage as before, you just need to zone/kill an AD carry.
If your two item timing is Hydra/BtoRK and Randuins of course running through and killing an AD carry not going to work; Of course you'll never reach a target, and the whole time you're running at things you just kind of die and do no damage. But what I dont understand is why not just have like Warmogs+Randuins or Sunfire+Randuins instead and then it is win-win for you as Olaf; either you are tanky as shit and they focus you and blow you up while your AD and AP carry/assassin truck them (ie you should win that fight because you have huge HP and huge resist steroids) or they ignore you, and you just Press R and kill their AD carry for free because with the 200 armor they cannot duel you at all. Scenario 1 they focus the wrong target and lose. Scenario 2 they let the teamfight become a 4v3 for you team because Olaf can 1v2 a support+ad fairly easily assuming he built tanky... unless support is like Janna, but why the fuck would you pick a melee tank into Janna anyway? Would you pick Udyr into Janna? No? Then why pick Olaf into Janna? Thats picking a champion in a matchup they doomed to fail.
Your goal as Olaf is to zone, take damage, and be obnoxious in general in fights. Smash is a damn good player and did a great job with Olaf in my opinion. People playing him like oldschool Olaf in fights popping ult+ghost at the start of the fight while having one damage item and suddenly no ult resists are going to pop. Thats true. That style does not work anymore. That being said, you can play it differently.
I actually really like the Olaf changes, I think Smash did a great job. His ult is no longer "LOLOLOL PRESS R YOU DONT DO NOTHING" but now has some pretty cool mind-games and outplay options with it.
I'm not a great player, and I understand that, but I also have had a ton of success with new Olaf.
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On October 11 2013 04:58 iCanada wrote:
Yeah, but burning CC as a dude who built tanky items is good. I dunno, if you just dont press R and you "dont reach a target" then why the hell are your AD and Mid Lander not just trucking kids because you are being focused with your defensive steroid still up.
Your goal as Olaf is to zone, take damage, and be obnoxious in general in fights. Smash is a damn good player and did a great job with Olaf in my opinion. People playing him like oldschool Olaf in fights popping ult+ghost at the start of the fight while having one damage item and suddenly no ult resists are going to pop. Thats true. That style does not work anymore. That being said, you can play it differently.
If you want to do those things why are you not playing Shen/Malphite/Renekton/ZAC who all are just as good at "Absorbing CC and Damage while being annoying" and bring either more CC, more damage, or both while being built full tank?
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I think its pretty clear that old olaf is much, much more synergistic than the remake. I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing, but in this case, I think it is, because it detracts from the core, compelling gameplay of olaf, which is awesome axes. The remake seems focused on this extremely narrow, extremely spike experience in which you're low and heal like crazy with autos. This is something I like too, but A) aatrox and ww are both better suited to delivering on that and B) axes are a way better focus. I think smash completely underestimated how cool and fun they are to throw.
Additionally, attack speed bonuses on a guy with no built in movement bonus and weak cc is like.. Wtf.
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Frozen Mallet anyone? Solves his stickiness problems fairly well. SotAG is almost a perfect set of stats for Olaf in lane. Bring MS quints. W-Q doesn't synergies anymore but E-W does! Once you close the gap on them R+E+W+Frozen Mallet=dead carry in 6 seconds or less.
I mean I still think Olaf is weak right now but I don't think its his kit. He just needs a numbers adjustment with slight buffs to each of his skills.
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On October 11 2013 04:58 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2013 04:36 dae wrote:On October 11 2013 04:20 Alaric wrote:
Previous Olaf ult was "I reach you", current Olaf ult is "I fight you", is it that hard? No, you don't fucking pop your ult right at the start of a fight. How do you think people did when his ult used to only grant immunity, but not remove cc like it does now?
If you pop your ult at the same time as Ghost when you're a whole screen away then you deserve to get mauled on your way to your target. It's totally worth it to eat a cc while your team initiates if you can still get into the fight afterwards and then burn your ult and use the massive AD steroid to kill stuff.
Also the way the min. range on Q works means that if your target is trying to run from you (and has already been slowed) you can very easily chain slow it because you pick up the axe almost immediatly if you run toward it right after the cast (which you should in a chase), so you can hopefully chain casts before they can zigzag.
Yes, if your target stands still, you can't throw your axe at your feet, pick it up immediatly, then throw it again while weaving a single auto in-between each axe. Guess what? That's the point. Smash said over and over and over again since the very first thread where ideas about Olaf were publicly discussed that one of the goals of the changes was to get rid of the chain axe in close combat.
The problem is that it's hard for Olaf to stick to the target after he's reached it once/slowed it, to make use of his AS. If you can get rid of that, then his dps is pretty high as long as you have an AD-based offensive item and manage W's cooldown right. Champion with no movespeed increase, no bonus tenactiy, no real bonus defenses, one weak skillshot slow, is going to reach his target in a teamfight. Right. Your funny. Im pretty sure any character with any movement ability can just laugh at olaf if he doesn't have ghost+ ult up. Yeah, but burning CC as a dude who built tanky items is good. I dunno, if you just dont press R and you "dont reach a target" then why the hell are your AD and Mid Lander not just trucking kids because you are being focused with your defensive steroid still up. I keep hearing people say that Olaf NEEDS to build damage items to be successful or do the same amount of damage he used to do in his old iteration... why does he need to do the same amount of damage? Last I checked even without a damage item Olaf still trucks AD carries if he gets to touch them in a teamfight with any decent amount of armor and tanky things without any damage items at all.You dont need to do the same amount of damage as before, you just need to zone/kill an AD carry. If your two item timing is Hydra/BtoRK and Randuins of course running through and killing an AD carry not going to work; Of course you'll never reach a target, and the whole time you're running at things you just kind of die and do no damage. But what I dont understand is why not just have like Warmogs+Randuins or Sunfire+Randuins instead and then it is win-win for you as Olaf; either you are tanky as shit and they focus you and blow you up while your AD and AP carry/assassin truck them (ie you should win that fight because you have huge HP and huge resist steroids) or they ignore you, and you just Press R and kill their AD carry for free because with the 200 armor they cannot duel you at all. Scenario 1 they focus the wrong target and lose. Scenario 2 they let the teamfight become a 4v3 for you team because Olaf can 1v2 a support+ad fairly easily assuming he built tanky... unless support is like Janna, but why the fuck would you pick a melee tank into Janna anyway? Would you pick Udyr into Janna? No? Then why pick Olaf into Janna? Thats picking a champion in a matchup they doomed to fail. Your goal as Olaf is to zone, take damage, and be obnoxious in general in fights. Smash is a damn good player and did a great job with Olaf in my opinion. People playing him like oldschool Olaf in fights popping ult+ghost at the start of the fight while having one damage item and suddenly no ult resists are going to pop. Thats true. That style does not work anymore. That being said, you can play it differently. I actually really like the Olaf changes, I think Smash did a great job. His ult is no longer "LOLOLOL PRESS R YOU DONT DO NOTHING" but now has some pretty cool mind-games and outplay options with it. I'm not a great player, and I understand that, but I also have had a ton of success with new Olaf.
Few things.
First off, against any reasonably good team, you will not be reaching an adc ever without help from teammates, or using Ghost and R together to reach them. Well executed stutterstep kiting, as well as the multiple of cc abilities and movement abilities the adc and their team has will prevent this.
Secondly, Olaf is not a tanky champion in his current iteration. The bonus 10/20/30 armor/mr from his ult is not enough for him to be considered a tank. He needs to be building pure tank, while not being behind in gold, to effectively work as a tank right now. His ult gives him the only tanky stats he gets from his kit, and his e makes him less tanky. (Lifesteal is not a stat that helps in teamfights for tankiness outside of fringe cases)
Thirdly, if you get behind on Olaf currently, your useless. You will die the instant the other team directs any damage towards you at all. You simply cannot close the gap with anyone without being chunked to the point where you cannot stand and fight anymore.
Fourthly, hes a bruiser without a gapcloser. There are very few if any that are currently viable(nasus because of wither, singed b/c of how tanky he is, his slow, and his MS buff), due to the above problems of it being impossible to not be kited to death, and take too much damage gapclosing.
Fifthly, Olaf gets way worse as you play against better players. Stuff like moving in such a way to abuse the minimum range of axe, stutter step kiting properly making it very hard to reach them, using their gapopeners and cc properly to screw you, and abusing your terrible early laning phase, meaning its quite likely you will get behind, and therefor become useless.
Also, any champion with disengage makes Olaf's life a hell in teamfights.
All of the above makes me feel like I am handicapping my team if I pick Olaf currently (in D1), and why I think he is just not viable at all currently.
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This isn't necessarily Olaf related, but I wish they would release an iteration of the health/movespeed item from aram on SR (obviously it would need some changes and need a late game upgrade). there are precious few viable champions without dashes these days, so it seems like the ms active item would help a little bit to even the field.
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On October 11 2013 12:26 petered wrote:
This isn't necessarily Olaf related, but I wish they would release an iteration of the health/movespeed item from aram on SR (obviously it would need some changes and need a late game upgrade). there are precious few viable champions without dashes these days, so it seems like the ms active item would help a little bit to even the field.
I love going ghostblade + shurelia + that item on Olaf in arams. Pop all three items, ult and ghost, pretty silly :D
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But Olaf is not meant to just fucking run at people and reach them without chaining axes, which takes too long to do to initiate a fight. Oo
Just because Jax happens to be manly enough to initiate and that Irelia can survive diving in doesn't mean it's their role. They're "fighters", according to Riot, which usually means "the guys who join a fight initiated by others and run amok", not "the guys who go in first and initiate".
Also BotRK is a silly item by itself, it's not any good with Olaf in particular. You're better off building AD/Lifesteal/ArPen if you want damage. If you simply rush BotRK and Triforce like a bunch of people do then you deserved to get destroyed while you try to join a fight. Which also means that his 1-item timing isn't as strong as others, yeah.
And I don't deny that he's in a bad spot currently, or that he has shit base armour (good HP, AD and top AS though), I'm just saying that pushing him toward AS rather than axespam isn't necessarily a bad thing and can be made to work, assuming he gets some tweaks to his current self.
I think Riot expressed that they intended him to be able to fight with the frontline, then ult and go crazy on the squishy carries when he sees an opening. He's not a diver, it's more about being tanky enough (and having 1v1 power for the splitpush) to stay in the thick until said openings appear.
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On October 11 2013 19:16 Alaric wrote:
I think Riot expressed that they intended him to be able to fight with the frontline, then ult and go crazy on the squishy carries when he sees an opening. He's not a diver, it's more about being tanky enough (and having 1v1 power for the splitpush) to stay in the thick until said openings appear.
The problem is the frontline just either:
A: Ignores Olaf and olaf cant keep up as they dive while having aoe cc going or
B: Kills olaf with a bit of attention from their backline since olaf is so squishy, and has no escapes and no way to do anything when to low to go back into the fight.
I honestly think your image how teamfights currently get carried out at higher levels is just wrong, as just the positioning and damage focus is way different.. teams can kill/chunk olaf if hes in front without commiting much and still being safe from olafs team, and if olaf isn't in front, hes kinda useless.
AS based melee carries without gapclosers just don't work in the current League of Legends.
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Reading you guys it now really feels like olaf is a weaker version of Mundo...
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On October 12 2013 02:40 Anakko wrote:
Reading you guys it now really feels like olaf is a weaker version of Mundo...
Mundo's probably better imo. He has a built in speed boost, insane survivability, and he gets vast amounts of tenacity which makes him very hard to peel.
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What if you got phage and fmallet?
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On October 11 2013 19:16 Alaric wrote:
I think Riot expressed that they intended him to be able to fight with the frontline, then ult and go crazy on the squishy carries when he sees an opening. He's not a diver, it's more about being tanky enough (and having 1v1 power for the splitpush) to stay in the thick until said openings appear.
What character in the game does that?
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is it just me or this guy's Q manacost kind of ridiculous?
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Depends on how much you spam it. W cost is super low and E and R cost no mana, so it's not really aggravating.
And stop saying stuff like "yeah they can just focus Olaf if he's in front because he won't reach them", well sure, Olaf's not Shyvana or Singed or Cho'Gath, he's not an initiator, he's not the guy who will walk in front of all the enemy poke and wonder why they get kited, geez.
If you want Olaf to do that/pick him in a comp that'll require that from him, then the problem's with your decision, not with the champ. You don't ask Udyr to do that.
When you pick Olaf, either you splitpush, or you've got an initiator, be it Malphite, Sejuani, Jarvan, Amumu, Zac, Aatrox, Shyvana, whatever. You just have someone on your team who will get it an initiate a fight, so you're not the only frontliner.
And you're complaining about Olaf dying too fast, but ffs stop rushing Triforce or BotRK on him and try to fight then, that's just dumb. Olaf is about sustain (be it damage or healing), he doesn't have Jax's "burst mitigation" (E and R active) or Irelia's burst healing on her ult, his 1-item timing isn't as strong as them and on top of that it's at a point where burst-oriented champs start hitting their power peak, so no, Olaf isn't as good for the first drake fight than say Renekton, Irelia or Jax.
So what do you do?
You don't capitalise on that timing.
You don't try to rush offense then manfight people.
Just try to pair him with an initiator and build more defenses, and not pop your ult as soon as the teamfight start. And please note how it's different from running 4 squishies alongside him, rush a full offensive item first and immediatly seek a teamfight, asking him to initiate it with ghost and his face.
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yah no 75 mana when he only has 1k at level 18 is a LOT of mana. I think he ought to have more mana per level so he can use them to push more realistically in the mid-late game, it just hits his wave clear really hard without a sheen or a shroud or something. It didn't hurt old olaf so badly because his primary role when he was good was to just trash shit in teamfights, but this iteration doesn't seem to be so much about that so I consider it a serious issue.
I largely agree with your other points. I'm finding the most important habit to get into with this guy is just not pressing R during teamfights unless you end up dueling somebody, which basically never happens. Even if you need to leave, but get CCed, it's frequently not worth because the loss of resists makes it such a bad escape option.
Currently in the jungle I don't see how you have any option but to build straight tank.
In top lane what I'm trying now is rushing hydra, which I read smash recommending, and maxing W, then going straight tank. I don't think maxing Q or E is realistic at all at this point, you are just going to oom yourself or do nothing, and level one W is so bad it's basically a blank skill unless you rank it up, so this ought to maximize the power of your point distribution. It seems noticeably better than everything else I've tried so far.
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EPT
