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yeah rageblade + negatron is my go-to core. if i haven't shut down their AD carry by that point then i drop a chainmail in there before grabbing shurelias, otherwise i finish my FoN or banshee first
the only reason i think wit's is acceptable (while not being a priority) is because if you don't get a kill or assist in the first 10 or so minutes of the game, it's perfectly reasonable to only have enough gold for say wriggles, boots, and 2 null mantles (plus wards pots etc). in that situation where i don't foresee myself being able to get 2200 any time soon, but 1050 isn't TOO farfetched, i might grab the recurve into wit's into aegis for a bunch of cheap options
BUT 90% of the time in that situation i just opt for boots 1 and pickaxe instead of the double defensive item
and i think skarner + zilean is especially scary just because of the synergy of movespeed with skarner's ability to punish someone for being out of position. i definitely rank it up there with the likes of zilean/karma + singed
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United States47024 Posts
On November 07 2011 17:36 NeoIllusions wrote:
Just watched Saint (with just a Wriggle's Trinity) terror a 3-0 Nasus 1v1 who solo top. I am a believer now.
Edit: QEQW, 3:25 clear. Cloth+5 opening, uses 4 of them for first run.
I'm assuming that's including doing his wolves before blue?
On November 07 2011 17:41 gtrsrs wrote:
the only reason i think wit's is acceptable (while not being a priority) is because if you don't get a kill or assist in the first 10 or so minutes of the game, it's perfectly reasonable to only have enough gold for say wriggles, boots, and 2 null mantles (plus wards pots etc). in that situation where i don't foresee myself being able to get 2200 any time soon, but 1050 isn't TOO farfetched, i might grab the recurve into wit's into aegis for a bunch of cheap options
Even in those cases, do you feel that Wit's is a better option than, say, Sheen->later Triforce?
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United States37500 Posts
On November 07 2011 17:48 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 17:36 NeoIllusions wrote:
Just watched Saint (with just a Wriggle's Trinity) terror a 3-0 Nasus 1v1 who solo top. I am a believer now.
Edit: QEQW, 3:25 clear. Cloth+5 opening, uses 4 of them for first run. I'm assuming that's including doing his wolves before blue?
Isn't this what the standard opening for mana based Junglers now?
Start Wolves, have solo mid do a few hits.
Solo mid leashes Blue, Smite for kill.
AoE skilled champs like Skarner, Udyr, Rammus, etc can do the entire Wolf camp. Depending on the amount of assistance, non-AoE champs may sometimes just take the big Wolf and move on to Blue immediately after.
He tried QWQE the previous game and the first run wasn't as good. Just throwing it out there.
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On November 07 2011 17:48 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 17:36 NeoIllusions wrote:
Just watched Saint (with just a Wriggle's Trinity) terror a 3-0 Nasus 1v1 who solo top. I am a believer now.
Edit: QEQW, 3:25 clear. Cloth+5 opening, uses 4 of them for first run. I'm assuming that's including doing his wolves before blue? Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 17:41 gtrsrs wrote:
the only reason i think wit's is acceptable (while not being a priority) is because if you don't get a kill or assist in the first 10 or so minutes of the game, it's perfectly reasonable to only have enough gold for say wriggles, boots, and 2 null mantles (plus wards pots etc). in that situation where i don't foresee myself being able to get 2200 any time soon, but 1050 isn't TOO farfetched, i might grab the recurve into wit's into aegis for a bunch of cheap options
Even in those cases, do you feel that Wit's is a better option than, say, Sheen->later Triforce?
i don't even like triforce on jungle skarner because the most important attribute you get from it is the MS/AS from zeal but if you get zeal first you do 0 damage and take all damage. the sheen proc isn't even good on skarner IMO because he isn't a burster like tiger udyr, but rather a DoT duelist. i just feel like the constant damage from having high AS -> more Q's -> more autos is a lot stronger than higher damage autos in between Q spam
idk i'll give early sheen a try next time and see if i like it
another thing i was legit considering was keeping my razor instead of wriggles' and getting bloodrazer later in the game and forgoing rageblade completely. i think it will lead to the same problem of no real AD/AP to speak of, but the high AS combined with the ability to get tankier faster might make up for it. i dunno it's probably a bad idea but i'll give it a try
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Ugh I still run out of mana so quick on this champ but I think I've at least improved in the ganking/counterjungling department. (Note: not running out of mana in the jungle, moreso if I jungle a bit, decide to counterjungle and run into someone, I'll spam all my shit and run out instantly. Also in teamfights. Such horseshit.)
Liking gtr's Rageblade 1st build over Triforce. Takes wayyy too fucking long to get it
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United States37500 Posts
Well, I don't play Skarner and looking at his kit, I'm most likely never going to. Not going to speak of solo top Skarner since I have no experience there.
But from watching saint, jungle Skarner dominates (while saint is the best NA jungler by far, I'm using himself as a measuring stick. So I'm comparing saint's Skarner vs Shaco, Udyr, Trundle, junglers he's been playing a lot lately). There's no real early gank to speak of unless one of the solo lanes are serverely pushed and you have Red. But he speeds through the jungle like Shyvana does but with sustain.
Your MS/AS build sounds very glass cannon. At least with saint's build, you can get deeps into more DPS/HP. You're right that it's not burst like Tiger Stance but with his insanely low CD Q, Skarner can proc Sheen more than Udyr.
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United States47024 Posts
On November 07 2011 17:53 NeoIllusions wrote:
Isn't this what the standard opening for mana based Junglers now?
Start Wolves, have solo mid do a few hits.
Solo mid leashes Blue, Smite for kill.
AoE skilled champs like Skarner, Udyr, Rammus, etc can do the entire Wolf camp. Depending on the amount of assistance, non-AoE champs may sometimes just take the big Wolf and move on to Blue immediately after.
He tried QWQE the previous game and the first run wasn't as good. Just throwing it out there.
There was a discussion in the thread earlier, as Guitar likes to leave the wolves up, since E healing is quite significant on Wolves. I personally prefer clearing the Wolves first, as the extra 10 seconds gives you some options, but I can see why Guitar prefers leaving them up.
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On November 07 2011 18:26 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 17:53 NeoIllusions wrote:
Isn't this what the standard opening for mana based Junglers now?
Start Wolves, have solo mid do a few hits.
Solo mid leashes Blue, Smite for kill.
AoE skilled champs like Skarner, Udyr, Rammus, etc can do the entire Wolf camp. Depending on the amount of assistance, non-AoE champs may sometimes just take the big Wolf and move on to Blue immediately after.
He tried QWQE the previous game and the first run wasn't as good. Just throwing it out there. There was a discussion in the thread earlier, as Guitar likes to leave the wolves up, since E healing is quite significant on Wolves. I personally prefer clearing the Wolves first, as the extra 10 seconds gives you some options, but I can see why Guitar prefers leaving them up.
Cosign on E's healing on wolves - starting wolves is kinda dependent on who the enemy jungler is and if you want to make a beeline for them/their wraiths in my (v.limited) experience.
Depending on the game, I might experiment w/rushing Tabi from cloth armor to get boots2 quickly. Anyone mucked around with a quick Stinger into tank items if you're a bit behind?
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On November 07 2011 18:07 NeoIllusions wrote:
Well, I don't play Skarner and looking at his kit, I'm most likely never going to. Not going to speak of solo top Skarner since I have no experience there.
But from watching saint, jungle Skarner dominates (while saint is the best NA jungler by far, I'm using himself as a measuring stick. So I'm comparing saint's Skarner vs Shaco, Udyr, Trundle, junglers he's been playing a lot lately). There's no real early gank to speak of unless one of the solo lanes are serverely pushed and you have Red. But he speeds through the jungle like Shyvana does but with sustain.
Your MS/AS build sounds very glass cannon. At least with saint's build, you can get deeps into more DPS/HP. You're right that it's not burst like Tiger Stance but with his insanely low CD Q, Skarner can proc Sheen more than Udyr.
What was Saint using, I haven't been watching?
And yeah, I realize that Triforce is really bloody expensive, but imo, all the pieces are great on him. With his spammy playstyle that encourages autos, you get a Sheen proc basically every time it's up, Phage supplements your already great slow, and the MS/AS from Zeal just synergizes with him so well.
That said, I could see why it's not the best first rush item. In my low ELO (and mostly in normals too), it's not uncommon to get 4+ kills/assists from ganks in the first 10 minutes or so, and therefore I usually have enough gold to toss at an expensive item. Rageblade is probably the superior item given a "standard" amount of gold.
The reason I like to get Wit's is the fact that, for a good MR item, it's relatively cheap for early/mid game, and the AS is nice on him. I'll try building into different items today, probably. The thing is, for high magic damage teams, the only real MR items I'd consider getting are GA or FoN, neither of which are cheap. Banshee's is probably the other one, but again, pretty expensive and with his new mana efficiency, the mana is pretty well wasted on him.
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On November 07 2011 17:32 TheYango wrote:
I'm not a huge fan of Wit's because AD/AP is significantly better than the magic proc because you have abilities scaling off of both. I haven't done the math, but I have a feeling that Rageblade + Negatron is better DPS/gold than Wit's while also offering better survivability.
My brother made a Skarner spreadsheet because he loves spreadsheets. According to the sheet he made at level 18 a fully stacked GRB is 160 DPS, while Wit's End is 151 DPS (with 100 armor/MR on your target). Since GRB is 2235g and Wit's End is 2000g, GRB + Negatron is a full 975g more than Wit's End. I'd guess adding a pickaxe would put Wit's End ahead of GRB + Negatron in terms of damage on a single target.
I can put the spreadsheet in my dropbox later if you're interested (.ods format, if you're using excel it's going to convert all the formulas to flat values). There's a lot of clutter involved but I'm sure you'd be able to sort through it and figure out what's he's doing.
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On November 07 2011 17:41 gtrsrs wrote:
yeah rageblade + negatron is my go-to core. if i haven't shut down their AD carry by that point then i drop a chainmail in there before grabbing shurelias, otherwise i finish my FoN or banshee first
the only reason i think wit's is acceptable (while not being a priority) is because if you don't get a kill or assist in the first 10 or so minutes of the game, it's perfectly reasonable to only have enough gold for say wriggles, boots, and 2 null mantles (plus wards pots etc). in that situation where i don't foresee myself being able to get 2200 any time soon, but 1050 isn't TOO farfetched, i might grab the recurve into wit's into aegis for a bunch of cheap options
BUT 90% of the time in that situation i just opt for boots 1 and pickaxe instead of the double defensive item
and i think skarner + zilean is especially scary just because of the synergy of movespeed with skarner's ability to punish someone for being out of position. i definitely rank it up there with the likes of zilean/karma + singed
Thoughts on building towards spirit visage over negatron? NMM/Health Crystal is only marginally more expensive then the negatron cloak but you do benefit fairly significantly from the CDR and improved healing (not to mention the health makes you beefier against their AD sooner as well, though I imagine this isn't lucrative enough to be a selling point) on the completed visage but you're trading that for the movespeed and passive regeneration of FoN (at about half the price though).
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On November 08 2011 02:06 STS17 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2011 17:41 gtrsrs wrote:
yeah rageblade + negatron is my go-to core. if i haven't shut down their AD carry by that point then i drop a chainmail in there before grabbing shurelias, otherwise i finish my FoN or banshee first
the only reason i think wit's is acceptable (while not being a priority) is because if you don't get a kill or assist in the first 10 or so minutes of the game, it's perfectly reasonable to only have enough gold for say wriggles, boots, and 2 null mantles (plus wards pots etc). in that situation where i don't foresee myself being able to get 2200 any time soon, but 1050 isn't TOO farfetched, i might grab the recurve into wit's into aegis for a bunch of cheap options
BUT 90% of the time in that situation i just opt for boots 1 and pickaxe instead of the double defensive item
and i think skarner + zilean is especially scary just because of the synergy of movespeed with skarner's ability to punish someone for being out of position. i definitely rank it up there with the likes of zilean/karma + singed Thoughts on building towards spirit visage over negatron? NMM/Health Crystal is only marginally more expensive then the negatron cloak but you do benefit fairly significantly from the CDR and improved healing (not to mention the health makes you beefier against their AD sooner as well, though I imagine this isn't lucrative enough to be a selling point) on the completed visage but you're trading that for the movespeed and passive regeneration of FoN (at about half the price though).
I've done Visage a couple times now, it's not terrible. E's heal becomes rather noticeable, but not overwhelming. Dunno if it's a "go to" item, but a decent choice.
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On November 05 2011 03:02 STS17 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 02:23 trollbone wrote:
well my jungle path with skarner is : wolf -> blue -> their wraith -> my wraith --> red -> their wolf -> golem -> wolf --> etc
The best thing pre level 6 is not to gank the ennemy lane but to counter jungle and gank the jungler, killed so many fiddlesticks, amumu, rammus at wraith or wolfs
Rarely u will be able to gank pre level 6 but if you see one of your opponent is an idiot go for it and make them use flash but dont try too much, better to reach level 6 faster than to pull unsuccesful ganks
And take MS quint absolutly, so good on him How low do you get doing this? How often does their mid come to try and help their jungler?
Normally u get their wraith before they are here if they didnt start at wolf or golems after that u can sit in the brush waiting for them to come if the mid doesnt react fast enough u get first kill easily.
Well i invade a lot
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i've been running armor pen marks, speed quints, armor seals, MR glyphs with 9/21/0 masteries on him lately with the following build: boots 3 pots, sheen, swiftness, phage -> trinity, vampiric, guinsoo, starks/bloodthirster, and then sunfire/banshee. It's a little more squishy in lane but the damage output really surprises me. With ghost and W, i can easily fish somebody out from their tower 1 to the middle of the lane or so, so initiations for team fights have been very nice.
I've tinked around with the wits end build, and the other more tanky builds but i find my damage output to be severely lacking in those scenarios.
Do you have guys have any ideas of optimizing the build i've been tinkering with?
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after buying and playing skarner a bit i've settled on 1/14/16 masteries, taking nimbleness, sos, and the necessary utiltiy tree masteries and quickness. i use aspd reds, dodge/armor yellows, mr per lvl blues, and mspd quints. cloth+5 jungle start. i build wriggles->sheen then situational. if i need more damage i get a rageblade, otherwise frozen heart and fon for defensive. getting triforce eventually.
skarner has some really deceptively high dps. those small buffs to his Q give him sooooo much damage. with fon, mspd quints/masteries and W you are fking fast as hell and can punish/dive carries so well.
regarding triforce, i really really like it on skarner since he has one of the highest base AD in the game and it synergizes really really well with his kit
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On November 08 2011 18:16 Ryuu314 wrote:
after buying and playing skarner a bit i've settled on 1/14/16 masteries, taking nimbleness, sos, and the necessary utiltiy tree masteries and quickness. i use aspd reds, dodge/armor yellows, mr per lvl blues, and mspd quints. cloth+5 jungle start. i build wriggles->sheen then situational. if i need more damage i get a rageblade, otherwise frozen heart and fon for defensive. getting triforce eventually.
skarner has some really deceptively high dps. those small buffs to his Q give him sooooo much damage. with fon, mspd quints/masteries and W you are fking fast as hell and can punish/dive carries so well.
regarding triforce, i really really like it on skarner since he has one of the highest base AD in the game and it synergizes really really well with his kit
Wow, I'm a big idiot....I think all my issues wiwth Skarner would be solved if I just build like this and save Triforce for later. Sheen resolves a bunch of mana issues and adds needed damage, then if needed I can go tanky real early, or if I feel I don't need it, Rageblade.
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On November 09 2011 00:10 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 18:16 Ryuu314 wrote:
after buying and playing skarner a bit i've settled on 1/14/16 masteries, taking nimbleness, sos, and the necessary utiltiy tree masteries and quickness. i use aspd reds, dodge/armor yellows, mr per lvl blues, and mspd quints. cloth+5 jungle start. i build wriggles->sheen then situational. if i need more damage i get a rageblade, otherwise frozen heart and fon for defensive. getting triforce eventually.
skarner has some really deceptively high dps. those small buffs to his Q give him sooooo much damage. with fon, mspd quints/masteries and W you are fking fast as hell and can punish/dive carries so well.
regarding triforce, i really really like it on skarner since he has one of the highest base AD in the game and it synergizes really really well with his kit Wow, I'm a big idiot....I think all my issues wiwth Skarner would be solved if I just build like this and save Triforce for later. Sheen resolves a bunch of mana issues and adds needed damage, then if needed I can go tanky real early, or if I feel I don't need it, Rageblade.
Even after playing some matches with it, I still don't like Rageblade. Wriggles/Boots first always, then Sheen, then either straight to Trinity or get defensive items and then go to TF. I'm fairly certain Cloth 5 - Boots - Wriggles - Mercs - Sheen is a very solid core: Life Steal, MR, Armor, AD/AP/Proc; and he's one of the few champions that wants every one of those stats.
Personally, I like the TF rush for a more aggressive play. Getting Phage after Sheen gives you a bit more toughness, and the slow proc helps you line up Q's slow.
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just did a triforce open out of the jungle
it was kind of deceptive, i was 1-0-1 after my first run so i got the sheen pretty early but even going 3-0-2 pre-triforce i didn't actually have enough to buy it until 27 minutes which is IMO pretty late. and that's with a GOOD game and delaying tank until after. i did notice an increase in damage per hit with sheen but the hits came sooo much less frequently that i don't know if it was an actual dps increase. need to play a game where i don't get freebie money early and try it in a normal/losing situation to get a full read but i do remember explicitly thinking when i had (wriggles, sheen, boots1, and 2300 gold), "boy i should just buy rageblade now instead of mercs + zeal."
also for some reason i had never actually tried ambushing in the wraith brush until this game and holy shit it was so strong. wolves -> my blue -> their wraiths -> camp wraith brush. olaf ran in at 350 HP, hit a nid trap, hit a skarner, and dropped instantly. 100% blown flash (or in the case of this ghost olaf, first blood). mid made the mistake of coming to help and i blew his flash before he got away with 100 life too. gonna try that more often. i might even consider a longsword open to help facilitate that kill more
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On November 09 2011 00:28 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 00:10 WaveofShadow wrote:On November 08 2011 18:16 Ryuu314 wrote:
after buying and playing skarner a bit i've settled on 1/14/16 masteries, taking nimbleness, sos, and the necessary utiltiy tree masteries and quickness. i use aspd reds, dodge/armor yellows, mr per lvl blues, and mspd quints. cloth+5 jungle start. i build wriggles->sheen then situational. if i need more damage i get a rageblade, otherwise frozen heart and fon for defensive. getting triforce eventually.
skarner has some really deceptively high dps. those small buffs to his Q give him sooooo much damage. with fon, mspd quints/masteries and W you are fking fast as hell and can punish/dive carries so well.
regarding triforce, i really really like it on skarner since he has one of the highest base AD in the game and it synergizes really really well with his kit Wow, I'm a big idiot....I think all my issues wiwth Skarner would be solved if I just build like this and save Triforce for later. Sheen resolves a bunch of mana issues and adds needed damage, then if needed I can go tanky real early, or if I feel I don't need it, Rageblade. Even after playing some matches with it, I still don't like Rageblade. Wriggles/Boots first always, then Sheen, then either straight to Trinity or get defensive items and then go to TF. I'm fairly certain Cloth 5 - Boots - Wriggles - Mercs - Sheen is a very solid core: Life Steal, MR, Armor, AD/AP/Proc; and he's one of the few champions that wants every one of those stats. Personally, I like the TF rush for a more aggressive play. Getting Phage after Sheen gives you a bit more toughness, and the slow proc helps you line up Q's slow.
In theory this works; I find rushing Triforce on junglers to be problematic, however, since the sheer amount of farm required to get that 4k gold is going to take you a long damn time. Skarner farms decently, which is nice, but he's still way too squishy for way too long even with the Phage. The only other champion I rush triforce on out of jungle (and even then I rarely do it anymore) is Trundle, because Trundle's Q spam and chasing ability is > Skarner's, not to mention his 1v1 is better as the game progresses (with Ult + Q debuffs + cc reduction).
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On November 09 2011 02:16 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 00:28 Requizen wrote:On November 09 2011 00:10 WaveofShadow wrote:On November 08 2011 18:16 Ryuu314 wrote:
after buying and playing skarner a bit i've settled on 1/14/16 masteries, taking nimbleness, sos, and the necessary utiltiy tree masteries and quickness. i use aspd reds, dodge/armor yellows, mr per lvl blues, and mspd quints. cloth+5 jungle start. i build wriggles->sheen then situational. if i need more damage i get a rageblade, otherwise frozen heart and fon for defensive. getting triforce eventually.
skarner has some really deceptively high dps. those small buffs to his Q give him sooooo much damage. with fon, mspd quints/masteries and W you are fking fast as hell and can punish/dive carries so well.
regarding triforce, i really really like it on skarner since he has one of the highest base AD in the game and it synergizes really really well with his kit Wow, I'm a big idiot....I think all my issues wiwth Skarner would be solved if I just build like this and save Triforce for later. Sheen resolves a bunch of mana issues and adds needed damage, then if needed I can go tanky real early, or if I feel I don't need it, Rageblade. Even after playing some matches with it, I still don't like Rageblade. Wriggles/Boots first always, then Sheen, then either straight to Trinity or get defensive items and then go to TF. I'm fairly certain Cloth 5 - Boots - Wriggles - Mercs - Sheen is a very solid core: Life Steal, MR, Armor, AD/AP/Proc; and he's one of the few champions that wants every one of those stats. Personally, I like the TF rush for a more aggressive play. Getting Phage after Sheen gives you a bit more toughness, and the slow proc helps you line up Q's slow. In theory this works; I find rushing Triforce on junglers to be problematic, however, since the sheer amount of farm required to get that 4k gold is going to take you a long damn time. Skarner farms decently, which is nice, but he's still way too squishy for way too long even with the Phage. The only other champion I rush triforce on out of jungle (and even then I rarely do it anymore) is Trundle, because Trundle's Q spam and chasing ability is > Skarner's, not to mention his 1v1 is better as the game progresses (with Ult + Q debuffs + cc reduction).
I agree with this mostly. His jungle is honestly one of the fastest out there right now (Q spam so good), even at my terribad level and with no good runes I full clear at ~3:40. However, you really underestimate his 1v1 potential, even in the late game. I feel confident 1v1ing every melee champion and several ranged once I have a handful of items. I also agree that Triforce is pretty prohibitive in price, but I feel like I do crap for damage without the Sheen, so I would definitely consider that core.
just did a triforce open out of the jungle
it was kind of deceptive, i was 1-0-1 after my first run so i got the sheen pretty early but even going 3-0-2 pre-triforce i didn't actually have enough to buy it until 27 minutes which is IMO pretty late. and that's with a GOOD game and delaying tank until after. i did notice an increase in damage per hit with sheen but the hits came sooo much less frequently that i don't know if it was an actual dps increase. need to play a game where i don't get freebie money early and try it in a normal/losing situation to get a full read but i do remember explicitly thinking when i had (wriggles, sheen, boots1, and 2300 gold), "boy i should just buy rageblade now instead of mercs + zeal."
Well, yeah, I don't know if I'd recommend it if you're behind, but like I said before, I generally get 2+ good ganks early on and can afford it.
I still don't see the huge draw of Rageblade. With runes and W up, I don't really feel the need for the massive AS boost, and the flat numbers aren't anything to write home about, imo. I suppose it's mostly to power his passive, but eh.
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