EPT[Champion] Garen - Page 22
| Forum Index > LoL Strategy |
|
Fildun
Netherlands4122 Posts
| ||
|
Kaethis
Netherlands112 Posts
While I don't think Riven would 'beat' Garen particularly hard playing like this it is something to be congnisant of and a reason to go into the lane with a different mindset then you normally do. I'd pick ignite vs almost anything, but I prefer TP against Riven because of it. - ofcourse, if you use abilities and she does, all her abilities are down I guess. Problem is that her cooldowns are shorter then yours, so that's not a good thing. Without your W in particular straight up trades vs Riven are not good. | ||
|
Fildun
Netherlands4122 Posts
If she uses abilities and you don't you also win. I mean if you use Q while you're stunned and she still has Q or E up you're gonna have a bad time so you really shouldn't do that. | ||
|
Kaethis
Netherlands112 Posts
What I'm getting at is that the real problem here is that she can stun you in midair if you're Q-ing, or dash out of your spin because she's not silenced. If she manages to do that every time, she gets to take potshots at you. It's hard for her, but that's Riven for you. Any other way of playing means she loses because, as Teutonica said, you smash her in 1-for-1 combo trades. I don't really want to argue over something small like this, I'd merely like you to consider that it's a way Riven can play and that you should be prepared for it. | ||
|
Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
One note is about pointing out what her cds are shorter. None of them are shorter than Q unless you don't use Q straight away or she is lvl 9+ with cdr in which case you have so many points in Q you don't give a fuck.In any case, it doesn't matter if her CDs are up or not, if your Q and E went on cooldown, she's either dead, or so far away she can't abuse it. Riven can't W while she Q's, so if she uses Q to poke you can snipe her with Q and whats worse is she might reset her Q cd and lose the rest of her stacks. You obviously shouldn't let her charge a knockup on you but that's not a problem because if she charges it, you wait 3 seconds and once its down she's at risk. That rules out her using Q to harass. That leaves two basic options for riven to harass you: Using W+auto to harass and Eing out or using E+auto to harass and Wing out Both cases rely on using Q for the extra speed to avoid the followup Q by garen because just one of those spells isnt enough to outrun garen. Eing in allows you to engage from range Wing in allows you to harass only from your own auto range. The only issue is, for weak poke it makes you a lot easier to engage on for garen. You rely on escaping with just 2 of your skills (you shouldn't at all count rivens Q as 3 abilities, it's basically a movement boost with damage for chasing, damage for dueling, and just a movement boost for running). If this is enough then you got some poke off, but you now have an 10ish second window where you can't get close to garen meaning its hard to press any kind of advantage as he can wait for his passive or push the wave or try to zone you. So going in to harass at all is a questionable trade off, as wheelking said. This is why I talked about the standoff situation. Riven shouldn't be able to do any meaningful harass but if she doesn't try to how can you press your advantage with Garen? It's something that could be possible but I haven't played the matchup in a while. Essentially you have to vie for position. Rivens disengage tactics assume you're running backwards towards your tower. If you run into the middle of the lane and garen goes between you and your tower you probably want to find another exit, but if its toward a wall or his tower you might have trouble because his Q stays up even after the speed boost is gone. Whether or not garen can effectively do this I'm not sure of. Ideally what riven wants is garen to waste his QE combo on something stupid like getting baited by a single spell and then you ult and then you get to use your Q to its full effect of chasing+damage, while garen can't do enough return damage without E and can't survive enough to wait for it. The fact garen relies on killing riven before she can effectively combo with her skills passive and ult is one of the reasons I don't agree with taking TP. I'm not totally sure on everything I've just said but it's probably not too far from the truth. As far as jungle ganks they are both hard to gank, but can both snowball pretty hard. If rivens ahead enough she can allin any time out of tower range, and garen won't be able to cs easily, he'll probably need to bait riven to aoe the wave or somtehing. If garen snowballs he can just dive her when she tries to cs, if she uses abilities you just wait while chasing with Q. Also yeah don't forget so be smart about using Q, you don't always have to use it straight away you can just use the movement speed boost to get yourself into a position where she can't stop you even if she uses her W , or wait for her shield to run out so you don't waste damage on it. | ||
|
Fildun
Netherlands4122 Posts
Seems pretty good on Garen, possibly good enough to replace Randuins in core build. Replacing Sunfire for it doesn't seem worth though, but I'll try that as well. | ||
|
Kaethis
Netherlands112 Posts
| ||
|
Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
| ||
|
Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
All values PER RANK Q: 25 damage + .5 Second speed up W: 1 second longer DR 1 second CD E: 3.8 damage/Spin . 0075 AD /Spin. Figured for: Garen's Level: 1 / 4 / 7 / 10 / 13 / 16 Spins: 5 / 6 / 7 / 8 / 9 / 10 Additional E Damage Per Rank: 19 / 22.2 / 26.6 / 30.4 / 34.2 / 38 Damage Additional AD scaling per Rank: 0375 / .045/ .0525 / 0.06 / 0.0675 / 0.075 AD Scaling All numbers assume full spin. Lower spins of course do less damage. As i see it it makes almost no sense to level E before level 10 and probably 13. You just get too little damage with no other benefit. .3 total AD scaling on an ability that starts out at 2.415. The speed up and DR duration has to be more valuable. Slayer what do you go now on new Garen? If its not Q,W,E or W,Q,E could your try one or the other and see how it goes? | ||
|
Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
| ||
|
Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
| ||
|
zer0das
United States8519 Posts
The fact that Garen's E does full damage to minions now is reason enough to level it. Not really sure where you're getting your numbers from either, because they don't look accurate on spin damage. | ||
|
Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
Garens E doesn't do "full damage vs minions " now. It just does worse damage vs more than 1 target straight up. Leveling W doesn't mean that you "just sit there any take it" the point is you're gaining 5-10% damage on E vs taking 30% less damage for 4 seconds Could be worth, against any burst trading champs. | ||
|
zer0das
United States8519 Posts
On August 26 2015 10:41 Slayer91 wrote: Look them up on league wiki. It's not hard. Garens E doesn't do "full damage vs minions " now. It just does worse damage vs more than 1 target straight up. Leveling W doesn't mean that you "just sit there any take it" the point is you're gaining 5-10% damage on E vs taking 30% less damage for 4 seconds Could be worth, against any burst trading champs. I did look. And the lines I'm referring to in particular are: "9 / 22.2 / 26.6 / 30.4 / 34.2 / 38 Damage 0375 / .045/ .0525 / 0.06 / 0.0675 / 0.075 AD Scaling" No idea what the first line is. Second line is scaling at x level of E. I want to say it's the difference between having max E and not, but it's not? What is the 9 supposed to be? Because it's inconsistent with the rest of the numbers. And if it's supposed to be the difference between max E and not, it's nonsensical because you're not maxing E at level 1 or 4. A different way of putting the difference between level 1 E and level 5 E: Level 9, 1 doran's blade and phage (AD marks/quints, 9/21/0): Level 1 E: 46 damage per spin, 7 spins = 322 damage Level 5 E: 62.3 damage per spin, 7 spins = 436 damage Against a single opponent, same variables as above: Level 1 E: 428 damage Level 5 E: 581 damage I suppose Q before E makes sense. Not as convinced about W before E. | ||
|
Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
The values are the marginal bonus of ranking the ability at Garen's level from the line above(which is when he gets more spins). At level 1 to 3 you get 19 damage for any rank in E(besides rank 1 of course). At level 4-6 you get 22.8 damage for a rank in E. So on and so forth. The second line is the bonus AD scaling you get per rank in E at the same levels. edit: I edited it so its easier to read. Does it make sense now? Level 9, 1 doran's blade and phage (AD marks/quints): Level 1 E: 47 damage per spin, 7 spins = 329 damage Level 5 E: 53 damage per spin, 7 spins = 371 damage This is wrong: If level 1 E does 47 damage per spin then Level 5 E does 64.7 damage per spin = 453 damage Which means you got 31.11 damage per rank. Which is kind of shit considering Q gives 25 damage/rank and also gives you 2 more seconds of speed up | ||
|
zer0das
United States8519 Posts
On August 26 2015 11:30 Goumindong wrote:Level 9, 1 doran's blade and phage (AD marks/quints): Level 1 E: 47 damage per spin, 7 spins = 329 damage Level 5 E: 53 damage per spin, 7 spins = 371 damage This is wrong: If level 1 E does 47 damage per spin then Level 5 E does 64.7 damage per spin = 453 damage Okay, the marginal gain per level of E makes sense. Yeah, rechecking things my values are off because I was looking ingame. They display the actual damage in a really weird way. I'll fix that in my other post. Does make E look a lot better against single targets. | ||
|
Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On August 26 2015 10:37 zer0das wrote: Damge itself is a benefit? A 1 second lower cooldown on a 24 second cooldown ability isn't going to do you an awful lot, and while damage resistance is nice, it's better to do damage than to sit and take it. The fact that Garen's E does full damage to minions now is reason enough to level it. Not really sure where you're getting your numbers from either, because they don't look accurate on spin damage. Should have replied to this earlier. So while damage itself is a benefit. So must damage reduction itself. On some champions you're going to want to pick damage because you can outplay the enemy and if you don't build damage you have both no option to outplay the enemy and no power. But garen isn't like that. Garen can't really outplay an enemy mechanically. He doesn't have ranged auto attacks, non-targeted dashes, invulnerability, etc. all he can do is real more damage or take less damage. And I feel like 4 more seconds of DR is super powerful both in lane and in team fights. It means an enemy cannot at all decide to wait out your DR and it means you have less to worry about for timing it. It means that any combo or CD based champion who wants to weave in/out will do very little damage to you. Similarly the extra 2 seconds of speed up will make the difference between running away and dying. Or closing to an enemy versus not making it and so doing no damage. Even against melee the extra 2 seconds of speed up will often be able to confer positional advantage that you can use to get more auto attacks off and so do more real damage as they're running. So it's true that e has the highest damage post 7 and highest by a half decent margin against an isolated enemy. But garen isn't like Viktor where you hit your laser or lose so your laser might as well hurt. Garen is a ball of stats and anything that increases either of the damage/tank stats better is more powerful. | ||
|
Ethelis
United States2396 Posts
| ||
|
Caiada
United States3052 Posts
I feel like you almost always want DMP, Titanic and Cleaver; it's mostly a question of order. An early hexdrinker is still good vs any hard AP lanes. Warmog's as 4th or 5th item seems nice but I haven't tried it at all because I never know when that ridiculous regen would actually be useful, particularly on Garen. Maw is good, SV is good. Along that same line, Randuin's as a second armor item is good if applicable. I think Sunfire still has niche uses as first armor item but is largely outclassed given how bad it is lategame. Sterak's Gage is great, but would almost certainly be after DMP/Titanic/Cleaver and the shield decays quicker than I'd have liked. | ||
|
Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On August 27 2015 02:53 Caiada wrote: Quick and dirty assessments from time playing Darius/Garen: I feel like you almost always want DMP, Titanic and Cleaver; it's mostly a question of order. An early hexdrinker is still good vs any hard AP lanes. Warmog's as 4th or 5th item seems nice but I haven't tried it at all because I never know when that ridiculous regen would actually be useful, particularly on Garen. Maw is good, SV is good. Along that same line, Randuin's as a second armor item is good if applicable. I think Sunfire still has niche uses as first armor item but is largely outclassed given how bad it is lategame. Sterak's Gage is great, but would almost certainly be after DMP/Titanic/Cleaver and the shield decays quicker than I'd have liked. if you dont build randuins what the hell do you do against vayne can't imagine going dmp titanic cleaver without just getting bopped anytime you try to teamfight that shit is broken and I don't see what you do if you dont buy oracles+randuins so you have a chance to do something against her I remember before I had to get randuins+thornmail before I could beat vayne in duels and teamfights tend to be worse because it punishes committing to chasing someone. not sure if new thornmail is better or worse now though | ||
| ||
