EPT2: you just go and W-E inside the whole wave. No way she can tank it all and once it shoves to tower you base for full hp and its back to even
[Champion] Garen - Page 21
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Slayer91
Ireland23342 Posts
2: you just go and W-E inside the whole wave. No way she can tank it all and once it shoves to tower you base for full hp and its back to even | ||
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DrunkenOne
United States302 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23342 Posts
It depends on a lot of factors really, if they rely a lot on CC and burst to keep you away I wouldn't bother with the offensive tree but if you need damage more obviously 21/9 might be a wiser choice. | ||
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saltywet
Hong Kong1316 Posts
his passive rework is pretty OP, lategame with 4k hp i got bursted down to 100 hp, walked away for a few seconds and came back with half health i think for jungle garen to work he needs a team that can set up ganks with slows/stuns but its still possible to gank overextending enemies who dont ward. at level 3 (with lvl1 q and lvl2 e, red buff and 2 autoattacks) i literally took off 80% of veigars hp by myself | ||
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DrunkenOne
United States302 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23342 Posts
yeah atmas is only really justifiable against all ad teams. even then arguments could be made for BC or warmogs or frozen mallet instead | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
I do agree that he needs at least a dash of damage in his build so he is not totally ignored... BC is probably the best, atmas is probably OK, and IE.... well, one can dream. | ||
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TheHumanSensation
Canada1210 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23342 Posts
As for the slow; 95%+ of your E's are preceded by a Q which does proc the slow. If you are CC'd during the spin even with your high cc reduction it may reduce your damage a lot. The Q slow helps stay ahead of a target and the silence guarnatees that they can't use a jump to get away except for the last one or two ticks. Secondly if you need to finish off a target with your ult flashing for a couple of extra autos might be more viable with the 40% slow against say an adc with redbuff. (Randuins works admirably for this also) The second and I would say main reason for getting it is defensively you can auto targets to slow and get some okay damage with LW when you want to save your QER combo for a squishier target that's waiting to jump in. A 40% slow is pretty significant in a stage where an adc can kill or die in a few seconds or prolonged fire. Remember atmas only gives about 45 AD or so at 3k hp and maybe a 5-10% damage increase on E damage which itself is less than half your damage. (Q and R and often ignite, sunfire and sometimes autos account for the rest). 45 armour is worth like 800 gold which 700 hp is worth probably 1800-1900 so even discounting the damage disparity of 15 ad and 15% crit it's quite a bit better in terms of EHP. If you count in the effects of LW and already overtuned armour stat (sunfire randuins thornmail is a lot) In nearly all cases BC is better than atmas anyway but if targets are squishy enough that its not then its likely the frozen heart tankiness against mpen/armourpen and slow is more useful. On October 09 2014 02:56 TheHumanSensation wrote: If you can afford a BF sword, wouldn't Mercurial help Garen more than an IE? with mercs and W and 21 defense you should have around 60% cc reduction as well as insanely high EHP from your tank build, W passive and actives and huge regen, your Q breaks any slows as well as providing a large and long duration speed boost meaning the qss active part isn't that useful. I would get it against perhaps a malzahar or something. Nearly always your core is sunfire+hexdrinker so you often just convert to malmortius until super lategame where any AP targets have LW and if they do any damage to you, you are probably out of position because with over 3k hp, 100ish mr and W 30% damage reduction even with DFG they won't do any damage you can't shortly regen. You want to sell that malmortius for BC/Frozen mallet I think. On October 09 2014 02:17 Sufficiency wrote: I do agree that he needs at least a dash of damage in his build so he is not totally ignored... BC is probably the best, atmas is probably OK, and IE.... well, one can dream. Normally I resent any statements that you need "some damage so you can't be ignored" but in garens case, being reliant on a burst 100-0 so much, I agree a little bit. The first thing to realize is that LW is by far the best damage item for you. Hexdrinker and sunfire are both excellent early on, and if I had to build blind I'd get sunfire/hexdrinker/lw+mercs. The second thing is that against squishy targets being tanky is often more important. Surviving long enough to threaten a second combo for example forces him away from the fight. Thornmail is an important damage source against an ADC and probably as good as a full damage item. Against heavy ranged AD thornmail+sunfire-->randuins would be the preferred build and you'll end up doing more damage than if you had gone BC or some nonsense like IE. Thornmail+sunfire passive damage+autos has often been enough to bring an adc from half hp or so to R kill range in a few seconds. ADCs like vayne who destroy you suddenly are in trouble when you finish thornmail because they can't kite and lifesteal after you get your initial combo off. The short of that is you have to build based on the enemies survivability. Ranged ADs don't need any damage because of how good thornmail and sunfire are against them. Ranged APs you want some more AD usually hexdrinker/lw and assassins normally you don't have to kill them by yourself what's important is helping your team kill them, your damage+maybe a sweepers lens+being enough of a threat to keep the backline away so they can focus the assassin are your main focuses. When it comes to the bruisers and tankier guys LW is absolutely critical and being tankier isn't a big priority because you are already extremely hard to kill but pose little threat if you can't burst someone down. Since you often get LW anyway normally the adjustment here is a BC 4th item (after sunfire/hex/lw). It fits perfectly because it gives you some more AD and armourpen (the hp is nice because just sunfire feels low) while also increasing team damage as you can fully stack a BC with a Q E combo. The main problem with BC is that nearly all your damage is done before BC is fully stacked, it's only really good in lane where you can keep autoing after E wears off and get another combo. Ironically also good with frozen mallet if you aren't getting thornmail or selling sunfire for it. The important thing is to figure out what you are likely to need to achieve in a teamfight and then build toward it. Normally if you build decent items you are well balanced to do anything but if they are heavily melee you want more damage and heavily ranged you want heavy tankiness and focus on flash+q engages or regening poke and countering their engages. | ||
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DrunkenOne
United States302 Posts
LW + Hex seems like its plenty of damage in most cases especially once you get thornmail as a pseudo 3rd damage item. I feel like getting a 2nd defensive item is more important than finishing BC, and a 3rd defensive item (usually thornmail) is better as well since that is going to give you 3.5 tank items (counting sexdrinker as .5) which makes you into an unkillable monster midgame. Its definitely a more selfish build not getting BC but i'd rather do huge burst to a single target and then survive for a 2nd round of cooldowns instead of shredding the enemy frontline and then probably dying due to having 1+ fewer tank items. In that game vs all AD I figured ~50 AD, ~56 armor (45x1.25), and +15% crit for 2300 was probably better than the 50 AD, 200 health, 10 armpen, 10 CDR and shred of BC for 3k, although its definitely more selfish. I think I had something like 3300 hp and 440 armor it was disgusting. Maybe should have gotten a warmogs and dropped the sunfire, I suck at math so not sure how much more eHP i'd have with ~55 less armor but ~500 more hp and a ton more regen. Plus another what 7.5 damage from atmas. Also I love hexdrinker in general and its even better on Garen thanks to the extra bit of bonus MR, but I almost never upgrade it. The upgrade cost to maw is huge especially since you usually won't be upgrading until lategame when you have full items and waiting for 1850 gold is rough. I usually wind up selling it for a 4th tank item and stick with only LW for damage, which leaves you with less damage but more tankiness and utility if you replace it with something like say Locket which once you sell hexdrinker is the same cost as what it would take to upgrade to maw. Could even just get a BC instead for not too much more. Is the 60-95 AD from maw worth getting over the alternatives? | ||
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Ethelis
United States2400 Posts
How is the new BC on Garen atm? It seems glorious on paper but dat build up...ugh. Even then when would you get it and instead of what? LW? | ||
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Fildun
Netherlands4124 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23342 Posts
Cases where I think I like it: -split pushy tanks: If you can't one combo someone your damage tends to drop off pretty fast and being able to run fast to chase or avoid autos helps, having cdr helps a ton (cdr is much better for pure dps than it is in practical games where you just go in when your CDs are back), and the armour pen increases your auto dps quite a bit. -where they have tanks that are dominating your back line: If you are forced to deal with them in teamfights then having BC is probably a good idea assuming your ADC has decent damage but he is too swamped to be able to deal it if you go and kill someone else. | ||
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Ethelis
United States2400 Posts
On June 13 2015 19:58 Slayer91 wrote: I'm quite sure there are uses for it, however buying it just because it feels like you're helping isn't a good idea. If you don't know exactly why you're buying it then just get LW/Hexdrinker as usual for damage. Cases where I think I like it: -split pushy tanks: If you can't one combo someone your damage tends to drop off pretty fast and being able to run fast to chase or avoid autos helps, having cdr helps a ton (cdr is much better for pure dps than it is in practical games where you just go in when your CDs are back), and the armour pen increases your auto dps quite a bit. -where they have tanks that are dominating your back line: If you are forced to deal with them in teamfights then having BC is probably a good idea assuming your ADC has decent damage but he is too swamped to be able to deal it if you go and kill someone else. Fair enough. | ||
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Kaethis
Netherlands112 Posts
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NpG)Explosive
France994 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23342 Posts
A good trick is to run (if she's chasing you run just out of range and chase her to just in melee range if she's running) with q until her shield runs out and then Q to stop her using any spells while you E on her. If you're rushing sunfire you shouldn't be getting one shot at all. What you want to aim for is chasing until she shield runs out and then QEing or else sneaking a Q in before she can react and then bumberbanging her. You should have the edge in terms of one combo potential since she can't really do anything versus silence and if you use W well it negates a lot of her burst. I haven't played it in a while so I can't give you any indepth details but I found the matchup generally comfortable and you can sometimes even oneshot her through shield. It's possible even stuff like maxing Q first or at least a few points is good. | ||
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Kaethis
Netherlands112 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23342 Posts
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Kaethis
Netherlands112 Posts
Riven still has pretty dumb burst if you get ganked or get caught at 50% when she hits level 6. It's a hard strategy to pull of consistently though but I've run into some who did it near-perfect and it makes the matchup feel slightly unfavored. I can imagine the lane being horrible if both players are essentially Faker because theoretically you can never put damage on her before you have either maxed Q, which means you lose straight up damage trades if you do it first, or some items. But most people aren't Faker, and if she fucks up you win. | ||
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