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i'm biased towards champs with cc being more useful than those without. its just the way i play the game (support, jungle). 
i played garen and cho pretty exclusively from 1-30 (well, i bought xerath somewhere along the line too...). obviously i was a lot worse back then and i'm still pretty meh now, but i've got a decent amount of experience with both champs and this is how i feel about them. its not even about having skillshots, its having a kit that you can just do more with.
and its a pretty subjective argument. how would you quantify the value of CC? i mean i could probably come up with some crazy equation like type mod(range*x + cd* y + duration*z) and add in some equation for damage and if it had multiple types of CC, but its hard.
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Sure, CC is valuable, but it's only one aspect of what makes a champion useful. Garen has better mobility, greater overall tankiness, is harder to lock down, and provides AoE armor shredding with E and black cleaver. In a teamfight, he most likely WILL outlive the enemy tank, and with speed boost + cc reduction he can force more cc's to be spent to keep him locked down.
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Cho is way better than garen. like way better.
Garen is an ok champ and i encourage people to play him, but don't think you are going to get to platinum/diamond by playing this guy, he has too many counterpicks and he sucks at carrying, he's just too easy to play against for him to be viable.
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I first picked garen all day before the nerf in diamond and carried tons of games and very rarely felt really counterpicked
cho has seen slightly more play in pro scene but none of it is recent enough to prove anything about whos better and I think its definitely situational.
I think anyone who dismisses garen as easy to play has an invalid opinion when it comes to his ability to carry because carrying is hard.
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i carry by sitting in bushes, garen style
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I think Cho and Garen are very different. Chogath is a great early- mid game tank with good cc and damage but falls off the later it goes.
Garen is closer to an assassin in the early mid game and fairly tanky and then he just becomes unkillable while being a huge threat to squishies.
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I have to say, to celebrate the new commando garen skin with beret, I've been trying slayer91's regen garen again and it's pretty good. It used to be one of my favorite builds but after FoN was cut and warmogs changed, I haven't tried it since. It still works surprisingly well.
9/21/0 masteries with magic pen
hp regen quints
doran shield/merc(or tabi) and then
cowl -> warmogs or sunfire -> warmogs, depending.
I can't decide if I like spirit visage better or Banshees better.
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On October 14 2013 10:23 obesechicken13 wrote:
How is the new Garen?
IIRC Garen received no balance changes, was just a visual update.
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On October 14 2013 10:42 schmutttt wrote:IIRC Garen received no balance changes, was just a visual update.
Oh, what? I swear I saw a post by some Plat or Diamond Garen who was complaining all the changes to Garen were nerfs. You're right. I should have checked.
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I wanna pick up Garen again but what's the way to build him runes/masteries atm?
Last season i used to do AD(or MS vs dirty teemos)/AD/armor/MR(flat or scaling of course)
If i got ahead i used to bruta-funfire-shiv-rands/SV, if not pretty much straight tank.
In the handful of games i've played him this season, i used the same runes and usually end up going 5/25/0 and building straight tank into a 5th item LW. I used to really like running Ghost/Ignite on him in general but it seems meh. Distortion seems good to get for the cases when one would run Ghost but i don't like the 475g dump for that.
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Depends on the matchup. Generally I run AD quints, armor pen reds, armor yellows and flat/scaling MR blues. I go 21/9/0 against weaker laners and 9/21/0 against Renekton/Darius because you need the regen. Sometimes I'll run armor quints and I've been debating hp regen quints for those two matchups in particular.
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Atmas is good on Garen.
What is bad about atmas:
Slot efficiency, not honestly an issue until 6 items at which point it will be giving around 3800 gold worth of stats...not exactly poor.
Crit isn't used effectively on bruiser/tanks
Garen loves it.
Armor: Garen gets free bonus armor from armor
Crit: Judgement crits, making crit a stright damage boost. If you aren't spinning on people as garen you are doing it wrong.
AD: Garen has sick AD ratios.
With 2-3 tank items garen has between 3 and 3.5k health, giving him ~45 AD with atmas.
This gives Atmas 3200gold worth of his most valuable stats for only 2300gold, or an efficiency of around 140%.
Compare this to other damage options garen can buy, the high tier items are too expensive for him to buy and still be tanky enough to reach his target (IE/BT etc). Even then they arent 140% stat effective.
the mid tier are like Youmuu where you will literally not benefit from the 40% AS on the active because if you close successfully you will use judgement, rendering it terrible slot efficiency and basically hugely expensive MS for 6 seconds every 45. LW which has its use later but is probably overshadowed by Cleaver, which you can apply over AOE quickly for your entire team and builds from a brutalizer you probably already have from early game.
in conclusion build Atmas on Garen because its good and is at the perfect pricepoint.
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The question is when to build it. Last?
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On June 30 2014 17:09 sob3k wrote:
Atmas is good on Garen.
What is bad about atmas:
Slot efficiency, not honestly an issue until 6 items at which point it will be giving around 3800 gold worth of stats...not exactly poor.
Crit isn't used effectively on bruiser/tanks
Garen loves it.
Armor: Garen gets free bonus armor from armor
Crit: Judgement crits, making crit a stright damage boost. If you aren't spinning on people as garen you are doing it wrong.
AD: Garen has sick AD ratios.
With 2-3 tank items garen has between 3 and 3.5k health, giving him ~45 AD with atmas.
This gives Atmas 3200gold worth of his most valuable stats for only 2300gold, or an efficiency of around 140%.
Compare this to other damage options garen can buy, the high tier items are too expensive for him to buy and still be tanky enough to reach his target (IE/BT etc). Even then they arent 140% stat effective.
the mid tier are like Youmuu where you will literally not benefit from the 40% AS on the active because if you close successfully you will use judgement, rendering it terrible slot efficiency and basically hugely expensive MS for 6 seconds every 45. LW which has its use later but is probably overshadowed by Cleaver, which you can apply over AOE quickly for your entire team and builds from a brutalizer you probably already have from early game.
in conclusion build Atmas on Garen because its good and is at the perfect pricepoint.
Some small points first off:
Youmumus, IE, BT are all awful damage items. Although IE is potentially a decent last item in some very rare cases against tons of melee and you dont need to be tanky.
You probably shouldn't be building brutalizer early game, it's a very old fashioned thing to do honestly.
Black cleaver itself is strictly worse than LW except to boost your ADCs damage, how much that is worth it depends on team comps and relative farm levels though, so its up to your discretion, but in any case if its better than LW then its better than Atmas.
Atmas crit: 15%. Judgement works on the AD modifer only and it gives you 50% less crit damage.
This means it gives 15% chance to do 1.5x3.3AD
@150 AD ==>495 dmg x.5 = 247.5 bonus damage with full crits x.15 = 37.125 bonus damage per E.
@200 AD ==>37.125x4/3 = 49.5 bonus damage per E
In general 15% crit = .15x1.5x3.3(AD) bonus damage per E
Now it is very safe to assume that for every E you get, you get 1 Q. So that gives garen a total AD ratio of 1.4+3.3 = 4.7.
So at 150 AD the 15% crit = 8 AD only. 288 gold value.
At 200 its slightly more at 10.6 ==> ~380 gold value.
So lets say we're getting this item fairly late, lets give the crit 400 gold value, chain vest 720 since although garen gets benefits from resists they are other items that also give armour like thornmail sunfire and randuins which are all great on him.
So atmas costs 2300, with 1120 gold value before the bonus AD. That means we need it to give 1200 gold worth of AD to be effective. ~32 AD. after 2k it becomes cost effective. It is worth 540 more gold per 1k HP. So we can assume it reaches about 120% cost efficiency at 3k hp and by the time we get higher the slot efficiency comes into question.
I did some quick math with LW. http://www.soloqueue.com/damage-calculator
LW gives 40 AD, for 2300, so its the cost of a pickaxe +40AD, so you need to make up 25 damage to be cost effective
using a base AD of 200, putting your QE combo at about 1430,
against a 200 armour target LW gives an effective AD boost of ~90 AD
against a 100 armour target LW gives an effective AD boost of ~60 AD
so LW is more than 150% cost effective starting at 100 armour
assuming the shield is fully used also hexdrinker is also more than 150% cost effective
short guide on how to play garen suggesting specifically LW and Hexdrinker as core damage items: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/league-of-legends/459538-patch-410-nidalee-skarner-rework-general-discussion?page=99#1977
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anyone try garen jungle yet with the new item? i get his lane clear and everything aren't the best but can he ever die with that item? O_O
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if you like it so much just get it midgame lol
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Thanks for the math Slayer, I think you're probably right mostly. Still a solid item though IMO if you need some damage and can't really sacrifice any survivability.
People build youmuus all the time (lol look at probuilds), and that's no good.
I did jungle garen before when they increased the judgement damage to monsters. Its fine, it works and he clears and functions, he's just not that great a jungler with no CC, gap closing issues and not that phenomenal a lategame. Darius brings a lot more to the table in the same vein IMO. Still fun for soloq sometimes. Quillcoat probably isn't that great on him, as he doesn't really want to stack health that much due to his bonus armor/MR and the fact that, lets face it, an invincible garen does a lot less than an invincible champ with CC or utility.
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On July 04 2014 05:29 sob3k wrote:
Thanks for the math Slayer, I think you're probably right mostly. Still a solid item though IMO if you need some damage and can't really sacrifice any survivability.
People build youmuus all the time (lol look at probuilds), and that's no good.
I did jungle garen before when they increased the judgement damage to monsters. Its fine, it works and he clears and functions, he's just not that great a jungler with no CC, gap closing issues and not that phenomenal a lategame. Darius brings a lot more to the table in the same vein IMO. Still fun for soloq sometimes. Quillcoat probably isn't that great on him, as he doesn't really want to stack health that much due to his bonus armor/MR and the fact that, lets face it, an invincible garen does a lot less than an invincible champ with CC or utility.
well yeah but you wouldn't be stacking health you'd be stacking resistances that have some health attached, IDK i'm definitely going to try it out.
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On July 04 2014 08:58 GreggSauce wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 05:29 sob3k wrote:
Thanks for the math Slayer, I think you're probably right mostly. Still a solid item though IMO if you need some damage and can't really sacrifice any survivability.
People build youmuus all the time (lol look at probuilds), and that's no good.
I did jungle garen before when they increased the judgement damage to monsters. Its fine, it works and he clears and functions, he's just not that great a jungler with no CC, gap closing issues and not that phenomenal a lategame. Darius brings a lot more to the table in the same vein IMO. Still fun for soloq sometimes. Quillcoat probably isn't that great on him, as he doesn't really want to stack health that much due to his bonus armor/MR and the fact that, lets face it, an invincible garen does a lot less than an invincible champ with CC or utility. well yeah but you wouldn't be stacking health you'd be stacking resistances that have some health attached, IDK i'm definitely going to try it out.
well then whats the point of the quill? You can already build garen a straight tank and be so tanky nobody will even attack you until you are the last possible target, he doesn't need quill for that. Its just not very good because you're ignorable.
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EPT
