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most of the jungle phase is over after you get a brutalizer
and all mobs dont have 20 armour most of your clearing wont be buffs since you smite them anyway
wasting armpen isnt that good an idea and AD is better early so I just rune full ad
doing "true damage" and acting like you're amazing isn't a good way to think. Think about the damage % increase and compare to the % increase you get from more AD. Q gets bonus from AD and early on you have low AD so the % increase for getting ad is higher while later on when you have high base damage on Q and R and base ad suddenly armpen is much better.
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On February 21 2013 08:08 Slayer91 wrote:
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most of the jungle phase is over after you get a brutalizer
and all mobs dont have 20 armour most of your clearing wont be buffs since you smite them anyway
wasting armpen isnt that good an idea and AD is better early so I just rune full ad
doing "true damage" and acting like you're amazing isn't a good way to think. Think about the damage % increase and compare to the % increase you get from more AD. Q gets bonus from AD and early on you have low AD so the % increase for getting ad is higher while later on when you have high base damage on Q and R and base ad suddenly armpen is much better.
I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to argue here. The only thing I get out of this is you think armor pen runes are a waste, which they're not.
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He's arguing that "this way I deal true damage to the jungle monsters" doesn't amount to much if you don't know what the alternative is.
Dropping buffs from 15.64 armour to 0 is a 15.64% damage increase; getting 15+ AD from runes, however, is more than 15% more damage because you have less than 100 base AD early on, and because it also works off Xin's Q (total bonus AD ratio is 0.75, 3.75 if you count the three autos in it, your ArPen runes won't work on it at all if you have 0 bonus AD).
So if your goal is to blaze through the jungle on your first clear, full AD runes probably work better.
Since once you get your madred's+boots+bruta laning phase should be nearly over (I guess it's truer the higher you are, in Silver II it still wasn't exactly true for me  ) then the speed at which you can clear the jungle suddenly matters a lot less, hence discounting the "with bruta I deal true damage to monsters".
So Teut's argument is that ArPen runes are better late, but since you want an early advantage, esp. relatively to clear speed, you should run AD runes with Xin.
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But you don't need to run Armor Pen for both Reds and Quints to have 15 Armor Pen. You can just run it on reds, so you're getting 12 flat armor pen, 15% reduction (challenge) and 8% armor pen (9 offense) along with 6.75 AD. 6.75 AD + 12 ArPen gives you the same 15% damage increase, but you're only losing 8.5 AD, which is a total DPS increase on jungle creeps even at level 1 - provided that they have 15 armor.
Little creeps have 8 armor, wolf has 9, golems have 12 buffs have 20, and wraith has 15. YMMV. I like armor pen considering his kit has armor reduction and so pen is useful at all stages of the game, including when I don't buy a brutalizer (I prefer locket first much of the time)
Also, Brutalizer is only 10 Armor Pen.
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Anything past 8 armour pen is always somewhere wasted in the jungle, despite already being slightly worse than AD for jungling. Since you get 5 armour pen and have ~22% build in armour pen from passive/offensive tree if you get 21/9 masteries it seems easier to just have a full ad page and have optimal clearing with no stats wasted at any point of the game. Armourpen becomes better later but you can invest in it in the form of brutalizer and ghostblade (which most people dont seem to be getting and just rushing full tank)
also I have tried full tank builds on xin or BC builds instead of max cdr ghostblade/tanky builds and my experience is that the higher cds offset any damage increase from getting more ad easily and the lack of mobility and tank dps limits your options greatly. (if you dive carries you take way more damage because they can stand and fight more often and you wait longer to get away, if you don't you dont do as much damage to their tanks and aren't an immediate threat afterwards to their ad if your ult is down compared to a 40% cdr ghostblade xin who can jump you every 3 seconds and can chase down a kill if you're not fed)
i mention this because bly infiltrated eu and was saying he always feels like he just needs more tank stats on xin while I always stuck to 2.5-khp with 140ish resists and then would over get more damage like IE instead of warmogs and never felt too squishy.
On February 21 2013 08:23 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 08:08 Slayer91 wrote:
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most of the jungle phase is over after you get a brutalizer
and all mobs dont have 20 armour most of your clearing wont be buffs since you smite them anyway
wasting armpen isnt that good an idea and AD is better early so I just rune full ad
doing "true damage" and acting like you're amazing isn't a good way to think. Think about the damage % increase and compare to the % increase you get from more AD. Q gets bonus from AD and early on you have low AD so the % increase for getting ad is higher while later on when you have high base damage on Q and R and base ad suddenly armpen is much better. I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to argue here. The only thing I get out of this is you think armor pen runes are a waste, which they're not.
Good argument. I explained how armourpen is partially wasted at least at the levels youre investing (diamond gets 8 armour pen on his xin page and gets 0/21/9 i think, you only need 2-3 for 21/9) and then you're like "lol no wat r u saying?"
you can say its worth running armourpen reds since the clear difference isn't large enough to justify being weaker later but its hard to measure this kind of thing, but definitely armour pen is weaker for early clearing.
also the difference for getting more armour pen is from 10.64 armour to zero any more is definitely useless in the jungle whichs means you probably want to get at least a few ad reds.
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so like, I still have no idea how to fucking level xin jungle.
is w/e quickest start? do I max Q or E if I'm giving blue away? If I'm keeping blue do I max E?
everybody has conflicting thoughts, like I thought mogwai advocated maxing e a few pages back but i watched a recent game of his maxing Q. I confuzzled.
also, is elder lizard acceptable or should you always get wriggles? i just did a random dry run custom and maxing E seemed pretty damn quick without wriggles, but then again i wasn't managing mana
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On December 22 2012 07:14 Mogwai wrote:
quick Q vs. E leveling lesson time.
Q
CD: 9/8/7/6/5
Damage/hit: 15/30/45/60/75
Total Damage: 45/90/135/180/225
E
CD: 13/12/11/10/9
Damage: 70/110/150/190/230
Slow: 25/30/35/40/45%
ok, so pretty straight forward right? Q's lower CD, higher damage/level, so max Q over E, right? this is the obvious answer and what 80% of Xin players are doing without any further thought. however, it's a shallow analysis that misses out on optimizing Xin's damage over realistic engagement times. here's where the simple analysis falls apart:
1. Q does more damage than E. irrefutably true, however, E's damage is point & click at 600 range, instantaneous, AoE and magic on an otherwise physical kit, all of which are useful attributes. in a single burst cycle of 1 E and all three hits of Q, Q realistically only slightly outperforms E on average due to armor/mres differential and in scenarios where it's optimal to prime Q to the 3rd hit before Eing in, E actually does significantly higher damage.
2. Q's CD is lower than E, ergo, putting your damage on Q nets you more dps in the long run than E. swing and a miss due to how Xin's CD mechanics actually work. Q goes on CD after the third hit, meaning that even if you have a 1.5 attack speed, you're going to have a 1.3-2.0 second delay between the cast on your Q and when it's cooldown starts ticking, regardless of any other stats. this delay accounts for part of the bridged gap between effective CDs on Q and E, and the other part is pretty simply coming from E's CD being effectively reduced by 3 from the Q hits. Even if you're at a high pre level 13 attack speed and have no CDR, a leveled E's effective CD is lower than the effective CD on a leveled Q. Not to mention that as you build CDR, the effective CD gap only widens in favor of E (since E's base CD is higher, it scales down faster with CDR).
So bam, end of discussion right? Again, wrong, this doesn't even finish off my argument as to why leveling E is better, despite the fact that this should be enough to convince you. The rest of the argument in favor of E has to do with ability flow over realistic scenarios and stickiness. let's look at a level 9 Xin with 1.0 AS and 0% CDR, note that this is absolute worst case with the E maxing Xin, as his cycles improve faster with CDR. In cases like this, regardless of skill leveling, the burst opening looks like this:
0.00 E
0.25 auto attack
0.50 Q1
1.50 Q2
2.50 Q3
3.50 auto attack
now, if you've maxed Q, at this point, E has 5.5 seconds left on it's CD, Q has 4 seconds left on it's CD and we've dealt 335 + 5.6 AD damage. if instead you've maxed E, at this point, E has 2.5 seconds left on it's CD, Q has 7 seconds left on it's CD and we've dealt 320 + 5.6 AD damage. By maxing E, we've drastically increased the damage we do in a 6-8 second burst because in the course of our standard combo, we've added in another full ability (and it's the one who's damage we've been leveling no less). It's also allowed us to double dash and guarantee our damage better via a much stronger slow %. This might look like I'm weighting this comparison in favor of E by taking such a short window after the initial burst, but in realistic scenarios, this is all you have with Xin. In a Q maxing scenario, your opponent has 4 seconds to put auto-attack range between you and him before you can Q him again, and 5.5 seconds to put E range between you and him. In an E maxing scenario, he only has 2.5 seconds to put a full E range between you two before you re-engage with a 45% slow.
So yea, max E on Xin. 3 levels of Q for opening up in the jungle is good just because of the mana efficiency of the damage, but maxing that E drastically increases your ability to chase down and butcher people after that point.
Last point in this post is that early levels in Q are efficient for your damage in the jungle because using E on camps drains your mana too fast, so I'm going 3 early points in Q, then favoring E over Q from there.
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You don't max E for the clearing power you max it for ganking since that is where xin is OP.
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if you're getting blues e is better for clearing
if you're ganking a lot e is a bit better but its not hugely significant without blue until you get hide cdr
smashes 3 points in q seems smart since you get max e by level 10
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tbh unless you max W there isn't much you can do wrong while leveling xin :p Depending on your style you might profit from 3 points in Q (heavy emphasis on farming until 6, personally I consider that a waste, Xin is one of, if not the strongest, gankers at level 3-5.
I consider 2 points in Q enough to clear the jungle, but taking E at level 3 and rushing for a fast gank works as well, just look at your lanes and see what you can do. If everything is pushed out and hard to gank just go for the second point in Q and continue clearing.
For midgame fights you should definitly have at least 3 levels in E, but unless the game is very rushed you should reach level 10 by then so you could have it maxed.
Far more important is that you invest your early gold well into fast items that pay off. In SoloQ what i have found the most annoying about common Xin builds is that they absolutely ignore the Kindlegem. I've had 3 games in a row where people picked Xin and then built up to 6k worth of damage before they bought a sliver of health... Yes you can get the same CDR and more damage from the brutaliser, but that item costs nearly 500g more. Which means your item timing (and yes at those early levels against people who might not have backed even once so far I consider a Kindlegem a timing) is most likely delayed for 2 ganks.
Kindlegem after boots 1 and madreds seems so logical to me that I cannot quite figure out what they are thinking...
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You overstate the power of CDR and health.
The huge damage increase from Brutalizer will do far more for your early ganks than the 200 health from Kindlegem.
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On February 27 2013 05:25 Tooplark wrote:
You overstate the power of CDR and health.
The huge damage increase from Brutalizer will do far more for your early ganks than the 200 health from Kindlegem.
Sorry but I cannot express how much I disagree with you, without sounding like a full out flame. I'll try to keep my tone civil.
There are 3 limiting factors to early game ganks: 1) room to move within before he reaches the turret. 2) CC available (both coming from yourselve and from the enemy), 3) damage needed to kill him.
Considering we are talking about early game item timings at most you are level 5-7 for the ganks we are talking about. Base damage of abilities is still king, mostly because no one has afforded any defensive items yet. The Kindlegem gives you the same cdr than brutaliser (again, I repeat it gives you the same CDR nearly 2 minutes earlier than your bruta would). Neither item gives you movespeed.
Basically my calculation is: can I kill him without him reaching the turret at all? Only if his flash is down in most cases. With the Kindlegem I can almost certainly tank up to 2 shots more of the turret than you can. Meaning, it increases the room available for a gank by at least a full tower hit.
Again you are most likely going to rush the brutaliser (otherwise the discussion makes little sense at all). Meaning your locket (my next item timing) is increased by 1337 gold for a increase in damage. Personally (and frankly that has remained true in quite a few Xin games by now) I don't need to do more damage early on. The base abilities do enough as long as you can stick to the enemy. With CDR you can stick better (though the chance of getting 2 Es off at level 3-5 is still low, unless the enemy is massively overextended).
The only case where I buy a brutaliser is if an invade of theirs blows up in their face and I get a triple kill to start the game off (happens rarely at best). Otherwise straight up rushing the locket gives me far more of what I need in the early game (health, armor, cdr + kickass active).
I'll buy the brutaliser after the locket if I can afford it (game going well) to increase my cdr even further and to add some arpen to my build. At that point I feel the item pays off. Before that? Some health to actually deliver the damage you might be able to do is far more important.
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On February 27 2013 05:25 Tooplark wrote:
You overstate the power of CDR and health.
The huge damage increase from Brutalizer will do far more for your early ganks than the 200 health from Kindlegem.
wat
cdr and hp are xins best stats without a doubt
i like brutalizer as much as the next guy but i wont do the dps and ehp calculations for you but HP is by far the best stat for ehp for pretty much anyone with good scaling mr/armour and runes for them, up to around 2-2.5k hp and cdr functions as mobility as well as damage which is also worth a lot offensively and defensively.
i get brutalizer often though because its cost effective as hell because armpen is the 3rd best stat on xin and AD is still very good on him.
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Yes, hp and cdr are the most important stats on Xin, but when you're strictly discussing ganking, brutalizer does a lot more for your early ganks than kindlegem does.
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by the time you have madreds and brutalizer
a: ganking phase is over/nearly over
b: any counter gank or whatever you get screwed because hp is far more effective than a bit of ad early on especially if their mid can 1 combo you
you could have madreds and locket for only 700 more and be far better in fights and in duels and slightly weaker in ganks but who cares you're xin
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For snowballing, brut vs locket. This is assuming you got 600+gold pre-6 from kills/assists/objectives and some lane tax as well. This means you can get razor+brut+boots with a ruby on its way in sub 10m. Otherwise there's not really an option between locket and brut.
Gank phase isn't over yet, so being able to essentially 100-0 any champion on the map is still useful.
As for survivability, at this point you'll probably be either equal or a level lower than mid/top. With some exceptions, you should generally not get bursted before killing somebody through ult resists and runes/masteries in 2v1 and 2v2.
If you can force objectives by killing the laners over and over, then brutalizer will be a better option, in addition to giving you control of the game. It's not a good buy unless you are already ahead, but it will keep the advantage as well as locket does, and gives a chance to completely go out of control, and singlehandedly carry games from the jungle.
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you're still at a pretty big risk of having your momentum taken away with a quick shutdown if your 1k hp champ dies while locket minimizes risk and its not like people are surviving ganks if they let you E them without having an escape ready brutalizer or not
and once teamfights happen if you do get shut down and you're stuck with madreds ruby and boots instead of locket you're much weaker in something like an early dragon fight where you want to get in to ult 3-4 people to get a lot of resists without being insta gibbed on the way on
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if you can get bruta early id get it, otherwise kindlegem, you have to buy wards and pots too and theres usually not a lot of money going around
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United States904 Posts
Anyone ever heard of or seen AP Xin before? A guy in one of my games did it a couple nights ago, we all thought he was troll but he ended up owning/carrying, went 16/2. He said he was healing for about 600hp at the end off his W passive, not to mention insane E damage. I think he rushed a malady and then went straight AP (dcap, zhonyas).
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I've seen it. It's a ghetto AP Trynd style with no escapes. =)
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EPT
