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On February 08 2013 17:01 zulu_nation8 wrote:
I'd just like to mention that at the end of preseason 3, on the NA server, I held by far the highest win rate on Xin at 65% with by far the most games played with close to 200 out of anyone above 2100. I started playing him when Dylan/Vayneauthority showed how OP he was top lane near the end of season 2. I'm posting this for posterity so that I will be remembered as a true hipster and not someone who jumped on the Xin jungle bandwagon after LCS. Thanks.
I had 66% win rate using jungle xin with 170 games at 1400 elo if that counts for anything :$
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from my experience vi usually gets fed early game and then pretty much sucks later and we end up losing. Her ult is nice but her E seems pretty shitty, her Q is alright but awkward and her denting blows is good for cleaning up a fight but its hard to train targets without CC. I dont see how you can say she trains targets better than xin because xin has a slow and a knockup on like 4 second cooldowns effectively has higher base damages a similar steroid. (15% armor reduce 80% as vs 3.33% + 1% per 100 ad max hp phys damage per hit +50% as)
xin also has a much better tank steriod for teamfights.
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Xin is suuuuch a monster these days.
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On February 09 2013 22:14 lynx.oblige wrote:
Xin is suuuuch a monster these days.
He's always been a monster. It's just the general public are starting to discover him.
Makes me sad really because it means nerfs are on the horizon 
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Have you ever been an ADC against a lategame Vi? If they're smart, there's not an awful lot you can do. She ults you, you have no recourse but to get knocked up for 1.25 seconds, then if you try to get away after that, she still has vault breaker to catch up. 1.25 seconds is an eternity when you're an ADC, chances are you're already dead from whatever followup the enemy team has. It's pretty similar to Malphite ult, only you cannot get away from it (unless you're Fizz).
Xin has to get 100 range closer to use his charge, and if you have a blink he's pretty easy to get away from after he uses it. And unlike Vi he can be cced at any point.
I'd much rather have to deal with a Xin Zhao as an ADC, at least in solo que.
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the enemy team always kills her way before she can ult an ad carry or at least hurts her enough that she cant do it safely.
myabe i just have a curse when vis on my team i always lose and its just a big cooincidence
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On February 09 2013 22:05 Slayer91 wrote:
from my experience vi usually gets fed early game and then pretty much sucks later and we end up losing. Her ult is nice but her E seems pretty shitty, her Q is alright but awkward and her denting blows is good for cleaning up a fight but its hard to train targets without CC. I dont see how you can say she trains targets better than xin because xin has a slow and a knockup on like 4 second cooldowns effectively has higher base damages a similar steroid. (15% armor reduce 80% as vs 3.33% + 1% per 100 ad max hp phys damage per hit +50% as)
xin also has a much better tank steriod for teamfights.
Her E is a double attack reset, her Q is far from awkward after you've played her like 3 games and is a directional dash on a super short CD that does 350 base damage (my bad for releasing this btw, I swear it was harder to hit before the initial bug fix pass), and her passive is pretty bullshit come lategame in terms of tanking (it's like a Malphite passive that will proc between 2 and 5 times over the course of a fight, rather than just being up once).
I don't really need to go into why she trains down targets better as it was already touched on a couple posts up. Vi will stay on you through 1-2 flashes no problem, but Xin can be foiled with 1 flash + a slow. I don't know what the Vis in your games are building if they're dying before they can ult a carry, but they're doing it wrong, she can essentially itemize 2-3 half offensive items (mallet, wit's, wriggle's) and perform her role optimally while being super beefy.
I think you should try to play some games as Vi dude, she's pretty crazy and if you're perception of her is that negative, I'm guessing Eu's sleeping on her a bit and you can probably ride the freelo train a bit. Plus she's fun cause she Falcon Punches people.
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On February 09 2013 17:29 Mogwai wrote:
warring kingdoms Xin is Zhao Yun btw. my only regret is that we don't have a character who's model lends itself to a Guan Yu skin.
They should've done Lu Bu Hecarim so we can have Guan Yu Jarvan ... or Nasus
I've been running jungle Xin with 10% AS reds and rest AD marks + quints. No AS was a tad too slow but 15% AS is unnecessary. Maybe someone could mathcraft it or test it at 4-6% AS but that much optimization isn't really worth it.
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On February 10 2013 09:27 xes wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 17:29 Mogwai wrote:
warring kingdoms Xin is Zhao Yun btw. my only regret is that we don't have a character who's model lends itself to a Guan Yu skin. They should've done Lu Bu Hecarim so we can have Guan Yu Jarvan ... or Nasus I've been running jungle Xin with 10% AS reds and rest AD marks + quints. No AS was a tad too slow but 15% AS is unnecessary. Maybe someone could mathcraft it or test it at 4-6% AS but that much optimization isn't really worth it.
You like AD over Armor Pen? I usually do 10% AS and the rest armor pen, seems to be pretty good as with 12 ArPen you fully penetrate creep armor (I think).
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On February 10 2013 09:27 xes wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 17:29 Mogwai wrote:
warring kingdoms Xin is Zhao Yun btw. my only regret is that we don't have a character who's model lends itself to a Guan Yu skin. They should've done Lu Bu Hecarim so we can have Guan Yu Jarvan ... or Nasus I've been running jungle Xin with 10% AS reds and rest AD marks + quints. No AS was a tad too slow but 15% AS is unnecessary. Maybe someone could mathcraft it or test it at 4-6% AS but that much optimization isn't really worth it.
Maybe when they update Garen to make him look less silly, he might fit. I would love Wukong the most though 
Btw, it's confirmed that Zhao Yun is actually invincible :/
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On February 10 2013 01:13 Slayer91 wrote:
the enemy team always kills her way before she can ult an ad carry or at least hurts her enough that she cant do it safely.
myabe i just have a curse when vis on my team i always lose and its just a big cooincidence
If they build glass cannon Xj9 style yeah, they'll suck late game. But that's more because of the players than the champ, Xj9 builds with winning the game early in mind and will alter his item path is something screws up, the Vi players I've seen (she's pretty popular EUW from what I've seen Smash, at least since Xj9 became popular; not as much as Xin/Lee/etc. but I see her pretty often) just mimic him and build full damage then don't understand why if I can survive the burst I'll truck them.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
It really depends, some of the higher elo soloQ warriors, Farfain comes to mind (hope I am not missspelling his name) but also a few others build Vi almost purely tanky, something like brutalizer into warmogs randuins or something like that. And yeah, she's pretty strong that way, she faces competition from the likes of Xin and Jarvan though, hard to tell whether she is an universally awesome pick or not.
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She is awesome, she falcon punches and dunks people, what more do you need?
Then again, Xin is awesome too... and this is the Xin thread, so I won't derail any further.
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I think its important to note that ever since the spirit of the elder lizard buff happened Xj9 has been building Vi very differently, with his usual item progression changed to brutalizer -> elder lizard -> warmog instead of brutalizer -> bloodthirster -> moar damage.
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On February 11 2013 07:15 koreasilver wrote:
I think its important to note that ever since the spirit of the elder lizard buff happened Xj9 has been building Vi very differently, with his usual item progression changed to brutalizer -> elder lizard -> warmog instead of brutalizer -> bloodthirster -> moar damage.
Last post on the subject from me since this is the Xin thread and not the Vi thread, but the net result is that he's still spending 4k on offensive stats before investing in anything that actually makes him useful instead of spending like 6+K. In other words, it's still really dumb IMO. Just follow her rec items, I wrote them, gg.
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On February 10 2013 11:57 TFS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2013 09:27 xes wrote:On February 09 2013 17:29 Mogwai wrote:
warring kingdoms Xin is Zhao Yun btw. my only regret is that we don't have a character who's model lends itself to a Guan Yu skin. They should've done Lu Bu Hecarim so we can have Guan Yu Jarvan ... or Nasus I've been running jungle Xin with 10% AS reds and rest AD marks + quints. No AS was a tad too slow but 15% AS is unnecessary. Maybe someone could mathcraft it or test it at 4-6% AS but that much optimization isn't really worth it. You like AD over Armor Pen? I usually do 10% AS and the rest armor pen, seems to be pretty good as with 12 ArPen you fully penetrate creep armor (I think).
Most creeps are 6-8 armor. Big wolf is 15 and buffs are 20 but w/ Xin passive you really only need 5 arpen and rest AD if you're trying to maximize damage vs jungle creeps.
Full ArPen is for better scaling damage vs champions though someone mathcrafted it and it doesn't really break even with AD until later in the game
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Xin passive and 21 offensive should be fine, just run ad quints and reds.
armpen is better later sure but early jungling speed is the kind of shit that snowballs and in the early game AD trucks people with your Q at level 1. Once you get level 5 Q and your R then armpen is a lot better but that's something you can worry about more with top lane xin.
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AD reds and quints are also my preference as I tend to find he is comparatively strong between levels 5-11 with his ganking power if you're jungling.
Although I'm not even level 30 yet and still noob'ish, I find I can influence the game throughout the whole game and not feel useless.
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On February 10 2013 11:57 TFS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2013 09:27 xes wrote:On February 09 2013 17:29 Mogwai wrote:
warring kingdoms Xin is Zhao Yun btw. my only regret is that we don't have a character who's model lends itself to a Guan Yu skin. They should've done Lu Bu Hecarim so we can have Guan Yu Jarvan ... or Nasus I've been running jungle Xin with 10% AS reds and rest AD marks + quints. No AS was a tad too slow but 15% AS is unnecessary. Maybe someone could mathcraft it or test it at 4-6% AS but that much optimization isn't really worth it. You like AD over Armor Pen? I usually do 10% AS and the rest armor pen, seems to be pretty good as with 12 ArPen you fully penetrate creep armor (I think).
I mathed out the armor pen needed for max jungle damage in a previous GD thread.
No matter what you have 15% reduction from passive, 8% penetration from Weapon Expertise mastery (unless you don't put at least 9 points in offense, which I'm going to ignore).
Then your options are:
- 5 additional armor pen from Sunder mastery if you go 21/x/x (technically 19/x/x but w/e)
- up to 19.2 additional armor pen from running full armor pen marks/quints
- I've seen many jungle Xin's get an early Brutalizer, giving you an additional 10 armor pen (but of course this won't be available on your first few jungle clears)
non-buff jungle monsters have anywhere between 5-15 armor. Both buffs have 20 armor. Dragon and Baron are N/A, since they are immune to resist-shredding effects. So 20 armor pen is what we're shooting for to max jungle damage
20 * .85 (15% from passive) = 17
17 * .92 (8% from Weapon Expertise mastery) = 15.64, that's how much armor pen you need from runes/masteries/items. 3 points in Sunder + Brutalizer is 15, so that's pretty damn close to true damage. This means you can go 21/9/0 and full AD marks/quints, and still basically do true damage in the jungle as soon as you finish your Brutalizer.
Or, what I do is go 9/21/0 and run almost full armor pen marks/quints. This lets me do true damage in the jungle on my first clear, and helps me scale very well into late-game for when I need to dive and kill carries. They're both good, it depends on whether you want to build Xin for tanking or being an assassin.
As for AS runes, I don't recommend it. Level 1 W gives you 40% AS, an extra 10-15% from runes/masteries just won't help much comparatively.
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EPT
