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On January 29 2013 03:39 h3r1n6 wrote:
I usually don't see health and mana regen as a worthless stat, but I have no idea how sustained Xins clear is currently. Well and you are right, the spirit stone 20% extra damage doesn't compare at all to the razor procs on an autoattack heavy champ.
with madreds his health is fine for clearing. Mana regen is useful but not enough to make it worth it.
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wow just played Xin jungle with E max for the first time, it's really like a different world compared to Q max thx for the advices guys :D I actually only ever considered E for the gapclose and completely neglected its dmg and cdr scaling with levels.
stuff like Xin and Vi really makes me wanna jungle although ihate jungling normally.
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Xin is one of the strongest top laners he's just weak to ganks
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On January 30 2013 06:13 Slayer91 wrote:
Xin is one of the strongest top laners he's just weak to ganks
Do you just mean pre 6? Because his R is scary good as a "f u jungler!"
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The problem with xins R is that it's an OKAY escape but if you already E'd into the other guy then you can't do much against the jungler. Most top laners have a large amount of escape skills at their arsenal. Riven has 3 hops, jax ignores autos for god knows how long, aoe stuns AND can jump around. Irelia has a stun/jump. Elise is ranged has her stun and her spider hop can troll people.
Darius has his speed boost and he's also considered really easy to gank but he's one of those guys that can get a kill our of it so he doesn't mind.
If you are suspicious of the gank you can save yourself but it's so easy to just want to murder the lane guy at any chance you get because of how strong he is it can fuck you because you don't recover too well from a setback. (in terms of laning phase, at least)
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On January 30 2013 07:30 Slayer91 wrote:
The problem with xins R is that it's an OKAY escape but if you already E'd into the other guy then you can't do much against the jungler. Most top laners have a large amount of escape skills at their arsenal. Riven has 3 hops, jax ignores autos for god knows how long, aoe stuns AND can jump around. Irelia has a stun/jump. Elise is ranged has her stun and her spider hop can troll people.
Darius has his speed boost and he's also considered really easy to gank but he's one of those guys that can get a kill our of it so he doesn't mind.
If you are suspicious of the gank you can save yourself but it's so easy to just want to murder the lane guy at any chance you get because of how strong he is it can fuck you because you don't recover too well from a setback. (in terms of laning phase, at least)
Another thing to add, is that if you want to burst as hard as possible, you E+R immediately, meaning you use up your escape as soon as you engage. Because of this, I usually wait and use R as a finisher when I play Xin top lane.
I've also done this move multiple times:
E in -> jungler jumps out of the bush -> wait until jungler gets next to me -> R the jungler away -> finish the kill
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That only works if you're already ahead enough that you don't need R to win trades. R gives you resists as well as scaling off current hp meaning you're crippling yourself if you save it. It's usually cheaper to ward or wait.
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On January 30 2013 08:14 Slayer91 wrote:
It's usually cheaper to ward or wait.
That's what I was saying; wait to use R.
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I mean wait to go in until their jungler shows up somewhere.
If you can kill him pretty much without your ult then you're already in good shape but I think its poor practice to adopt this in general. Using it to last hit is a good idea if you ARE worried the jungler is around but are seconds away from a kill sure.
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You lose a ton of trading power not opening with your ult. It's a terrible habit to get into.
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If I don't see the jungler but my ult is up, I'm not gonna open with my ult, because then I don't have an escape. But at the same time if there's an opportunity for an EQ combo I'm not just gonna sit there and do nothing.
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On January 30 2013 08:44 BlasiuS wrote:
If I don't see the jungler but my ult is up, I'm not gonna open with my ult, because then I don't have an escape. But at the same time if there's an opportunity for an EQ combo I'm not just gonna sit there and do nothing.
well, tough shit, you should just sit there and do nothing or go balls to the walls. halfassing the engage is how Xins lose lanes.
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edit: ^
Imagine a situation where you lose a trade if you don't open with ult but win a trade if you open with ult, you have no idea of where the jungler is. This is what happens all the time when the lane is even and you don't have a ward up or it isn't useful (if you've been pushed for a long time so he could be in the brush, or you're close to his tower and the jungler is lee sin who can jump to creeps or even just anyone who can gap close fast with mobility boots)
Besides its a VERY good exercise to imagine yourself as the enemy jungler and what routes you'd take to gank you and how plausible they are. If it's plausible he's been in that lane brush as soon as it pushed expecting to go to aggro then you wait until he shows up somewhere else. The thing is unless you watch every replay you have NO idea how many times a jungler has camped your lane and you didn't take the bait but felt like an idiot because you thought you were too cautious.
The only guy who really gives me insane amounts of trouble is jax. Because he seems made to counter you. E blocks your Q, he has better sustained damage, and is nearly impossible to gank. However I generally feel like I outperform jax in teamfights if I don't get too far behind. This is because Xin can initiate a fight well and disrupt the whole team with his E R combo, meanwhile if a jax goes in he can be focused by the team, giving you a slight edge there, and if you both get focused xin tends to recover better because he bursts harder once his big cds are down, and you have to back out and go in later. You still have a slow and a knockup and good burs. Meanwhile jax wants to get his passive and R passive rolling and if you used your E and R already you have to deal with mostly abusing W and Q for damage, which is going to be less than a xin spamming E W and Q for 3 hits and running out because he's nearly dead.
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I'm finally starting to update the OP with both my findings and what has been discussed in the thread. I also plan on adding a jungle matchup section for how Xin matches up with other junglers (With included replay examples)
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honestly this whole jungle match up thing is pretty pointless because it doesn't affect that much at all
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i think vi is really good vs xin, otherwise as far as jungler matchups are concerned, I counterjungle more often vs weaker early game junglers, and show more presence vs stronger early game junglers. Pretty straight forward.
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Ok, maybe less so jungle matchups but top matchups for sure.
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top matchup is xin rapes pretty much everyone except a few like jax, renek, darius, malphite, shen but junglers are a pain in the ass.
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I wrote a brief Xin guide for another site, covers the basics.
Xin Zhao
summoner spells:
Flash/Smite
masteries:
9/21 for when you need to be tanky for your team: http://www.finalesfunkeln.com/s3/#UMUq7nUbBk3CAd
21/9 for playing as a damage dealer, diving enemy carries, and stronger ganks: http://www.finalesfunkeln.com/s3/#3lUMSlqTvMbavEd
runes:
There are two sets I like to run:
1.) For maximum early damage, you need some attack speed for clear
9x greater mark of attack speed
9x greater seal of armor
9x greater glyph of scaling magic resist
3x greater quintessence of attack damage
2.) For maximum chasing power
9x greater mark of attack speed
9x greater seal of armor
9x greater glyph of scaling magic resist
3x greater quintessence of movement speed
skill order:
Q/EorW/EorW/E/E/R/E/Q/E, max E then Q. Get W second if you don't plan on ganking until Lv3, otherwise get E second.
items:
start: hunter's machete / 5 pots
core: madreds, locket, warmogs
later: sunfire, bulwark, hexdrinker, brutalizer
strong against: weak early game junglers like cho'gath, amumu, skarner, nautilus
weak against: olaf, post lv6 dr.mundo,
description:
Xin Zhao is a high pressure jungler who has incredible base damage without items. He is effective all game long and can act as the peeler or initiator in team fights.
Your standard jungling path should be to get both of your buffs ASAP, then either look for opportunites to gank or farm until lv4 and exert pressure. In games where the enemy team wards early, it is generally better to farm until the first wave of wards wear out, then pressure all lanes as much as possible.
The decision of when to gank and where relies primarily on the lane matchup, whether the enemy laner has escapes, whether your laner has CC, how strong your laner is at which level, etc. You should also watch out for enemy ward placement, creep wave, and the health of your laners vs theirs.
Xin has a non-skillshot gap closer with a knockup, the combination of which makes him one of the best gankers in the game. At level 3 or 4 with double buffs he is often the strongest champion in the game, able to burst anyone down and win 2v2 or 3v3 vs. counterganks.
When playing vs. carry junglers who are weak pre lv6, your mindset should be to pressure lanes as much as possible through ganks, counterjungling and showing general presence. This forces the enemy jungler to stop farming and in doing so, stunts his early game growth which is more important to carry junglers than to Xin.
When playing vs. similar early game pressure junglers like Shaco and Lee sin, try to predict their ganking paths and countergank as much as possible, as both of you would generally lose a fight when counterganked but win when counterganking. Xin is as strong of a dueler if not stronger than Shaco, and about equal to Lee sin.
The most important thing to remember about early game jungling is to not fall behind vs. the other jungler. Xin has one of the slower early game clears, and cannot shove lanes as fast as most other carry junglers such as amumu and nocturne, hence if you find yourself pressuring ineffectively early make sure you do not waste anymore time roaming.
In team fights, Xin's ultimate is his most important ability. You can use your ult to disengage, such as when an amumu bandages and ults your team, and using your ult to knock the enemy team back so they can't follow up, or you can use your ults to engage and single out targets, such as charging in to an enemy carry, ulting the rest of his team away then dealing more damage to the marked carry.
Xin is often forced to charge head first into the enemy team in fights, hence he should be built as tanky as possible with as little damage items as needed. He has tremendous damage with his abilites alone and thus do not need to be built damage to be effective later. Madreds is generally all you need for clearing jungle. Locket is the most cost effective defensive item in the game. Every tanky item works on him, as with every damage item since Xin scales well off of ad, aspd, and cdr.
With Xin's early pressure, your team should head into mid game with an advantage from most of your lanes. Pay attention to objectives such as enemy buffs and dragon, Xin with madreds can do dragon very early. In mid to late game, you can choose to initiate team fights or let your teammates do so, be clear about whether peeling or diving is the best for your team. Remember that you can still 1v1 squishy carries without any damage items.
Xin Zhao is one of the strongest jungler picks for solo queue and 5s, he is currently still underplayed at least in the NA region, he fits with a variety of team comps, and can be first picked safely. Use him to your advantage and wtach the wins pile up!
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EPT
