|
On November 05 2013 06:32 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2013 06:13 Complete wrote:
Nasus is considered a split pusher IMO because
1) almost everybody runs teleport top on him
2) he pushes quick with Q
3) he gets to farm up his q more (need to be smart about it though, if you're really split pushing you need to be pushing as quickly as you can, not waiting to Q stuff)
4) he has good escapes with whither/tankiness/ghost (other summoner uusally used)
5) he's a good 1v1'er once his Q is farmed and he has CDR/tankiness I didn't say people don't do it, It's just not his ideal role IMO. He can be much more. If you really want to split push there are better people do it. I think in games there are times when it makes sense, but as a gernal role if you really want to split push pick shen, who can ult into the fight, or a guy like tryn or yi who can take down towers crazy fast. Also his weakness early makes it a long time before you can start spliting effective, so the pressure you put on isn't what it can be with other champs. So yeah he could, but other champs do it better, and what he does can be so important in teams fights and objective control.
while I agree with some of what you say, a lategame nasus who is left alone at a tower/inhib for 2 Qs should have killed that :p The reason people tend to split, is precisely that Nasus just wants to farm his Q. If you take teleport there is little to no reason to roam before 20 mins is up. Simply put unless your team is under so much pressure you need to be there, it will be better for you to sit in top until you have your 2 item timing at the very least. With the current Triforce, I try to have either frozenheart or SV and at least a Sheen done before I start to roam, but i'll still stick to toplane until I have Triforce and the defensive item done. From that point on your a Teamfight menace so yes you should join your team. But if the opportunity presents itself (coupled with TP off cd) there is no reason why you can't split push bot/top to draw the enemy team out of position.
|
|
|
There are a few reasons why you split push/take TP
-If they leave lane early you want to keep farming up your Q to about 300-400 and get at least 1 good item because you won't get strong by just roaming and then farming 3 waves at once like other people can with their aoe and no need to farm Q. If they try to overextend and go for a risky dragon/dive you TP in and you should be stronger.
-Once you finish your FH//Gauntlet//Spirit visage almost nobody can 1v1 you and if they roam you kill tower really fast while if you follow him you can't do anything because you can't make plays with no burst or gap closer you can only fight the long fights or counter dive.
-You have no initiate at all so if your team lacks initiate you can push top (early) or bot (anytime after baron is spawned) and then force a fight and TP in, or force 2 to come to stop the push and then you TP to baron and ult to kill it quickly.
-If you somehow mess up and get shutdown early with ganks/dives TP helps you recover easily. Exhaust works here well also though, but if you get bursted down by two people before you can kite around tower (cc+ignite etc) it doesn't help.
I would rarely use TP for a gank when their top laner is still top, because if we both farm it's better for me while letting them take a tower and then roam while I catch up might turn badly.
Exhaust is a good choice but altogether less versatile. (very nice if the AD is expected to get qss fast though)
The trick against bully melee types is just to force them to use their AoE without taking too much damage so the lane pushes a lot faster so you lose less cs.
Most ranged bullies arent a problem because of your W when ganks come, and alone most of them can't harass well enough to be an issue. (kayle/nid certainly not, jayce/teemo/vayne/lucian or something would be good though)
Quints I think Armour/MR is better than ms/lifesteal, since you already have a lot of lifesteal and they scale better with regen+pots and they are better later. AD quints+armpen marks might even be the best combo against pushers because last hitting under tower is pretty hard when you have no bonus AD.
My guide is slightly out of date but I don't think theres anything you listed other than the option of taking exhaust that I think is relevant enough to edit in. (unless some things that arent obvious seem obvious to me)
I would almost always avoid sunfire unless I know I'm going to be in melee range for a long time. I already have so much AoE damage around me (E+R) that I don't expect anyone to survive long if they are in melee range, so instead focus on items that stop people getting away. Gauntlet for the slow, LW to increase my damage against the tankier guys who don't run away, Warmogs because its the best flat out survivability item lategame when everyone has LWs. Generally cdr is good because it's the best damage stat because you Q and E more, the best lane stat because you farm Q faster, and the bset teamfight stat because you W and Q a lot more.
Similarly I avoid trinity except against bruiser/melee heavy guys because if they are ranged/kiting enough that the slight movement speed boost from trinity is worth (you have ghost so you can avoid getting trinity IMO), they should have enough damage that you want a defensive item or enough kiting that gauntlet is a better option.
The 200~ damage in your Q is nice, but once you get 40% cdr you're farming 50 bonus damage minute and you can get merely 75 less from gauntlet but also providing a slow (which works better with ghost beacuse of the diminishing returns on movement speed, and also you get use it to protect your team)
|
|
|
Dorans shield pot is standard now, my guide is a bit dated.
Gauntlet+frozen heart has no "overlap". There is no unique passives or anything that is wasted. You are spending a lot on mana but its the same with frozen heart+trinity .
I would get HP before I got both of them unless I was vs very heavy AD though.
|
|
|
I don't understand why one should get froheart if you're also building IBG, SV, and rands. What does froheart bring that you don't already get from the other three?
|
On November 06 2013 00:24 Slayer91 wrote:
Gauntlet+frozen heart has no "overlap". There is no unique passives or anything that is wasted. You are spending a lot on mana but its the same with frozen heart+trinity .
Well you are spending more on mana with IBG compared to trinity. And then if you are also going to get SV that is 50% cdr which is too much. Can you really make use of the absurd amount of mana you get from IBG+FH?
I guess if you need ridiculous amounts of armor and don't need SV you can get IBG+FH but that's a pretty rare situation.
|
|
|
USUALLY If you are getting IBG and spirit visage, (vs heavy magic dmg teams) you don't get frozen heart, if you are getting IBG and frozen heart, (vs ad heavy teams) don't get spirit visage. If AD:AP ratio is even something like 65:35 in teamfights and you're versus an AD in lane, armour is better to buy than magic resist (assuming you have ~100 with mercs and someone elses locket) until you get like 300 armour.
However sometimes the overlap on CC is worth it to have the best slow you can buy. If you are spending all your W's on a ranged target having an extra slow for whoever you are currently in melee range of is VERY valuable, maybe almost as valuable as every other stat of trinity force combined. Being able to constantly chase and peel targets means you're a valuable asset to the backline if they protect their backline too much.
If you don't want to buy IBG I would normally buy trinity instead, you get warmogs/randuins/lw in some order. If you want that speed so much even with ghost theres a decent chance they have a lot of kite, and if they do theres a good chance you will be taking lots of damage enough so that a 20-30% increase in DPS isn't worth sacrificing for potentially warmogs+wardens mail. (which is similar cost but gives a massive survivability boost against all types of damage)
The extra mana "invested" in IBG is not counted when you look for its cost efficiency, you just add up 125% sheen value (sheen has effective cost of 1200 since mana and ap are useless for most people who buy them, +all the armour + whatever you value the slow is worth)
The fact that armour cdr and sheen are all very nice stats combined with the fact that its the best slow you can buy. (and better than all the speed boosts, maybe only QSS can rival it in some circumstances, but that costs entirely too much slt and gold wise except against malzahar)
Masteries are entirely adaptable. VS heavy hard cc you get the -15% cc, vs heavy slow you get the -20% slows, vs a hard lane you get more flat armour//magic resist//regen/block. There is no one size fits all mastery. Against many melees you might not care about block but more about regen, against ranged auto attackers you want both. etc.
Also you guys are probably underrating LW in terms of the damage benefits. When the large majority of your damage is coming solely from Q (you spend so much time chasing+casting q w and e to auto hit a lot) and the large majority of Q damage is flat having a % increase is huge.
Like getting LW on a 100 armour target and casting level 5 E doubles your d amage outright. If its lategameish and you have 500 bonus damage + IBG (gotta keep em in E) you're doing like 850~ damage a Q it's pretty insane.
Trinity is mostly movement speed+the better sheen proc, I think it might be worth just to get IBG+Hitler enchant on your boots (the 12% ms every time you hit something, or just the flat 15 ms depending on teamcomps, since with IBG most things in range don't catch you)
|
Good post to read especially since I returned to play after months of not playing. I suppose now ibg sv gives balanced stats while giving you good cdr. I agree with the point about LW too, most nasuses I saw back then didn't get it although it'd boost your damage significantly vs frontline tanks and even backline squishes who bought ga.
|
Anyone else think Nasus is pretty ridiculous in soloq right now? Whilst the hard lanes in Darius/Riven/Lee etc are still there, there isn't a single lane in the game that he loses if he gains a lead, and even when behind it is just a matter of time before he can kill his lane opponent 1v1.
I've always thought he is one of those champs who is countered moreso by a team comp (Disengage and slows) than his direct lane opponent, but been playing him a lot top recently and he feels absurd. Be interested to hear your thoughts in particular slayer91.
|
against lee sin you just have to be extremely careful as to not take too much dmg from q and e lvl 1-3, you shit on him totally if he doesnt successfully cheese and get kills on you
dodging q is paramount to success though but that lane is very doable
|
On November 08 2013 16:37 schmutttt wrote:
Anyone else think Nasus is pretty ridiculous in soloq right now? Whilst the hard lanes in Darius/Riven/Lee etc are still there, there isn't a single lane in the game that he loses if he gains a lead, and even when behind it is just a matter of time before he can kill his lane opponent 1v1.
I've always thought he is one of those champs who is countered moreso by a team comp (Disengage and slows) than his direct lane opponent, but been playing him a lot top recently and he feels absurd. Be interested to hear your thoughts in particular slayer91.
-Nasus is insane right now
-Lee should be an easy lane (his W and E both push creeps hard and he can't stick on you, its really easy to not get hit by Q's if he doesn't use W or E first)
-Riven can be tricky early but her damage is also aoe so abuse that.
-Darius is hard but he's hard as any melee and easy to gank. Again his Q is aoe so abuse that and farm at tower/freeze lane whenever possible.
In terms of team comp, although disengage and slows are effective (one of the reasons IBG is so good, since slows wreck any bonus movement speed if you don't get swiftness boots and the mastery at least) the important thing to realize is that you're just one of 5 in your team. You can't play like a regular engager and jump on someone, you play a lot more like udyr (and nobody plays udyr and people also have trouble playing with him in teamfights). You can chase people but you should never go too far ahead of a team. You can use your W to allow your teammembers to catch people (either W a tank and let your ranged damage him, or W a backline when you have some engaging melees or assassins to jump on if they engaged)
Iif you run ahead of your team, they can 5v1 you because you have no way to engage on their team properly, but once their tanks go in and such you can pick out people to 1v1 and if their whole backline stays together you just W their adc and focus their tanks or wait for your bruisers/assassins to be in position - once one of their squishies is dead you can easily kill the other.
The main problem is getting from A to B as it were. If you have superior poke they have to engage and you're fine with that, if you have some other form of engage you can wait for that guy to engage and follow up (and then hopefully you won't get focused down, so you can abuse the fact that you can 1v1 anyone and like 1v3 if its a bruiser/tank/support combo or some such).
This is one of the reasons why TP is so good - you can split push, and as long as you play safe so you don't get ganked by everyone when you're team is at base or something, you can force them to make a play, since not only can you force one top and tp to baron or another lane, they also have trouble letting anyone stay in lane without dying. So you can often TP to baron with a 5v3 or something, and if they leave you to try to catch your team you kill towers in seconds even if there is no good way to TP in and still win the fight.
|
What masteries do you suggest Teutonica? I feel like Ghost/TP is mandatory, but i sometimes feel like i need the %arpen from offensive or is it just silly to get that and just go for something like 1/21/8?
|
9/21
READ DA GUIDE NAP
adapt the 21 in def as you see fit
utility so bad you get so much mana anyways
|
This thread has so much good content. Teut runs the best champ threads ^^
I'm curious when Jimmi realized it wasn't brief anymore lol
|
|
|
On November 08 2013 22:58 Slayer91 wrote:
9/21
READ DA GUIDE NAP
adapt the 21 in def as you see fit
utility so bad you get so much mana anyways
I DID READ DA GUIDE NAP and got confused by the "The 8% armour pen is nice but not mandatory." 
|
o
well its not it might actually viable to go like 25-30 defense but utility is still bad
On November 09 2013 01:17 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2013 00:20 mordek wrote:
This thread has so much good content. Teut runs the best champ threads ^^
I'm curious when Jimmi realized it wasn't brief anymore lol I was writing that on and off while I was at work, so it took me longer than it should have to realize that it was far from brief! I do think the way me and him build nasus is quite different, and I have had so much success with the way I do, I will continue to. I do see the merits of what he does, I just value the speed more, so I don't have as much need for the slow, and I also have the exhaust as an extra slow. I would suggest trying out both and seeing what works for you. Just be sure to realize that going a couple MS quints instead of armour or mr does make you a little weaker early, but mid to late game, that speed is AWESOME (esspecially with triforce 2) =-)
its actually almost exactly the same you just build trinity, don't build ibg. (and use dumb runes HUEHUEHEUHEU)
GUIDE UPDATED
will have to change more come season 4 but all the broken images and such should be fixed. should be pretty accurate now.
I might have a recommended reading section at the bottom to gather any big replies to perhaps frequently asked questions and ignore every elses opinions. 20 pages is an awful lot to read through.
edit: funny to see people being like IBG is good trinity is trash early on in the thread and me arguing and then now someones like Trinity good IBG bad and im arguing again
gotta shut down dem extreme points of view
edit2: lol at ppl who thought Q max was bad and it was a popular view for ages guys pls
dont think ive ever played nasus with anything but q max except if im 1v2 or something
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
