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On February 22 2013 02:54 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 01:58 obesechicken13 wrote:On February 22 2013 01:28 Seuss wrote:The movement speed interruption of Wither is less, but not by much. Assuming 380 MS the 3 seconds of Taunt/Fear interrupt 1140 movement. If you calculate out Wither and all the diminishing returns, you get 1004 movement interrupted, 88.1% as much as Taunt/Fear. Obviously that's not equal, but it's extremely close. Nasus doesn't feel the same as Rammus and Fiddle for several important reasons: - Wither has much greater range than either Fear or Taunt.
- Nasus' damage increases even while he levels Wither.
- Wither's 5 second duration makes sticking to your target significantly easier.
That's not to say that maxing Wither is incontrovertibly the best option. The odd thing about Nasus is that he may be the only jungler in the game whose skill order is largely contextual. Q, W, and E all have significant merits which alter their importance depending on the circumstances and/or playstyle preferences. The key is to figure out what works for you and why without blindly dismissing the other options (hence my intent to experiment with E at TheYango's behest). What champion has 380 ms? In this no boots meta? Also the first level in wither is worth a lot more than the next few levels compared to how well fear and taunt scale. And slows stack horribly with each other and don't do as well at interrupting escapes. In my experience stun junglers have much better ganks than slow junglers. I'd have to try Nasus max W, but I don't think it would work. By the time junglers start hitting level 9 it's fairly safe to assume that your opponents will average around 380 MS. Fear/Taunt's scaling per rank is irrelevant. We already know how Wither compares to them at maximum rank, and Nasus isn't choosing between Wither, Fear, and Taunt when deciding his skill order. What matters is the value per rank of Soul Siphon and Spirit Fire. Incidentally, all three of Nasus normal abilities get a lot more out of their first rank than those that come after, which is why there isn't a clear best option to max first. We're long past the point where asking, "Does this work?" is relevant. Right now we're trying to discern which of the three working options is best.
I don't think all of us are. When I asked if people ever maxed E on Nasus before the Nasus buff in this thread, two high elo players told me that they only did it to troll as AP Nasus.
A month ago maxing anything but Q on Nasus was considered troll.
There are other champions with amazing utility or damage scaling on their abilities: eg Jax. If I asked others if maxing E on Jax for the cooldown and trading power was worthwhile, people would answer no. Post remake Jax actually could do 80% of someone's life in one max E if he used minions to charge up the damage.
I don't think we have had enough discussion about whether maxing his other abilities is viable or troll yet.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 22 2013 03:47 obesechicken13 wrote:
There are other champions with amazing utility or damage scaling on their abilities: eg Jax. If I asked others if maxing E on Jax for the cooldown and trading power was worthwhile, people would answer no. Post remake Jax actually could do 80% of someone's life in one max E if he used minions to charge up the damage.
This is misleading in a couple ways:
1) Numerically, a max E is not "80% of someone's life". The bonus damage cap is 300+1xAD (the AD ratio doesn't scale per rank, only by damage absorbed) at max rank, which is not significantly better than expected for a 5th rank nuke.
2) Jax is a Triforce champ. He's heavily hinged on the Triforce item timing--which requires him to have damage quite early. He needs Q and W ranks to be strong at that point in the game. It's a very different kind of power development than Nasus, who expects to be mostly a defensive/supportive teamfight champ dependent on his high baseline damage from E/R until 5th/6th item, where Q inevitably makes him strong.
EDIT: I went back to check, the discussion a couple pages ago between Teut and Monte was basically all about relative jungle speed between Q and E max. I think if they're close enough to be worth comparing, E max is better because it's simply the better teamfight skill. Even if Q max is slightly better from a clearing-jungle perspective, I think ranks in E are stronger for teamfights.
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On February 22 2013 04:00 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 03:47 obesechicken13 wrote:
There are other champions with amazing utility or damage scaling on their abilities: eg Jax. If I asked others if maxing E on Jax for the cooldown and trading power was worthwhile, people would answer no. Post remake Jax actually could do 80% of someone's life in one max E if he used minions to charge up the damage. This is misleading in a couple ways: 1) Numerically, a max E is not "80% of someone's life". The bonus damage cap is 300+1xAD (the AD ratio doesn't scale per rank, only by damage absorbed) at max rank, which is not significantly better than expected for a 5th rank nuke. 2) Jax is a Triforce champ. He's heavily hinged on the Triforce item timing--which requires him to have damage quite early. He needs Q and W ranks to be strong at that point in the game. It's a very different kind of power development than Nasus, who expects to be mostly a defensive/supportive teamfight champ dependent on his high baseline damage from E/R until 5th/6th item, where Q inevitably makes him strong. EDIT: I went back to check, the discussion a couple pages ago between Teut and Monte was basically all about relative jungle speed between Q and E max. I think if they're close enough to be worth comparing, E max is better because it's simply the better teamfight skill. Even if Q max is slightly better from a clearing-jungle perspective, I think ranks in E are stronger for teamfights.
Jax didn't need have a cap on his E damage when he was first remade. I tried it out by standing in a few creeps and jumping on a bot.
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On February 22 2013 03:47 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 02:54 Seuss wrote:On February 22 2013 01:58 obesechicken13 wrote:On February 22 2013 01:28 Seuss wrote:The movement speed interruption of Wither is less, but not by much. Assuming 380 MS the 3 seconds of Taunt/Fear interrupt 1140 movement. If you calculate out Wither and all the diminishing returns, you get 1004 movement interrupted, 88.1% as much as Taunt/Fear. Obviously that's not equal, but it's extremely close. Nasus doesn't feel the same as Rammus and Fiddle for several important reasons: - Wither has much greater range than either Fear or Taunt.
- Nasus' damage increases even while he levels Wither.
- Wither's 5 second duration makes sticking to your target significantly easier.
That's not to say that maxing Wither is incontrovertibly the best option. The odd thing about Nasus is that he may be the only jungler in the game whose skill order is largely contextual. Q, W, and E all have significant merits which alter their importance depending on the circumstances and/or playstyle preferences. The key is to figure out what works for you and why without blindly dismissing the other options (hence my intent to experiment with E at TheYango's behest). What champion has 380 ms? In this no boots meta? Also the first level in wither is worth a lot more than the next few levels compared to how well fear and taunt scale. And slows stack horribly with each other and don't do as well at interrupting escapes. In my experience stun junglers have much better ganks than slow junglers. I'd have to try Nasus max W, but I don't think it would work. By the time junglers start hitting level 9 it's fairly safe to assume that your opponents will average around 380 MS. Fear/Taunt's scaling per rank is irrelevant. We already know how Wither compares to them at maximum rank, and Nasus isn't choosing between Wither, Fear, and Taunt when deciding his skill order. What matters is the value per rank of Soul Siphon and Spirit Fire. Incidentally, all three of Nasus normal abilities get a lot more out of their first rank than those that come after, which is why there isn't a clear best option to max first. We're long past the point where asking, "Does this work?" is relevant. Right now we're trying to discern which of the three working options is best. I don't think all of us are. When I asked if people ever maxed E on Nasus before the Nasus buff in this thread, two high elo players told me that they only did it to troll as AP Nasus. A month ago maxing anything but Q on Nasus was considered troll. There are other champions with amazing utility or damage scaling on their abilities: eg Jax. If I asked others if maxing E on Jax for the cooldown and trading power was worthwhile, people would answer no. Post remake Jax actually could do 80% of someone's life in one max E if he used minions to charge up the damage. I don't think we have had enough discussion about whether maxing his other abilities is viable or troll yet.
We don't need to discuss which options are "troll" because they've all been used in actual games and found to work (although Teut never reported back about his runs maxing E, and I haven't talked much about W since the early parts of the discussion). None of the options are so bad as to be unthinkable (e.g. "troll"), because all three of Nasus' abilities are frontloaded in effectiveness.
On February 22 2013 04:00 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 03:47 obesechicken13 wrote:
There are other champions with amazing utility or damage scaling on their abilities: eg Jax. If I asked others if maxing E on Jax for the cooldown and trading power was worthwhile, people would answer no. Post remake Jax actually could do 80% of someone's life in one max E if he used minions to charge up the damage. This is misleading in a couple ways: 1) Numerically, a max E is not "80% of someone's life". The bonus damage cap is 300+1xAD (the AD ratio doesn't scale per rank, only by damage absorbed) at max rank, which is not significantly better than expected for a 5th rank nuke. 2) Jax is a Triforce champ. He's heavily hinged on the Triforce item timing--which requires him to have damage quite early. He needs Q and W ranks to be strong at that point in the game. It's a very different kind of power development than Nasus, who expects to be mostly a defensive/supportive teamfight champ dependent on his high baseline damage from E/R until 5th/6th item, where Q inevitably makes him strong. EDIT: I went back to check, the discussion a couple pages ago between Teut and Monte was basically all about relative jungle speed between Q and E max. I think if they're close enough to be worth comparing, E max is better because it's simply the better teamfight skill. Even if Q max is slightly better from a clearing-jungle perspective, I think ranks in E are stronger for teamfights.
You also need to consider that ranks in Q are better for taking objectives. Nasus with Q maxed demolishes Dragon/Baron/Towers/Inhibitors unless you've been remiss about stacking it. Maxing Q halves its cooldown, so leaving it with 1 or 2 ranks for the sake of other abilities comes at the cost of his ability to press objectives.
I still need to test E in a significant sampling of games to have a clearer idea of where I stand on that concept.
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maxing e just doesnt work because your early game is meh regardles and the only way to play him viabley is with a super farmed Q
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What would the skill order and item build ideally be for jungle Nasus?
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QEQW -> R>Q>W>E is what I keep gravitating back to. W and E first are okay, but maxing Q not only makes farming it easier, but actually clears faster later on because of the lower cooldown, lower mana dependence, and better single target damage.
You want Spirit Stone -> Locket -> Any Other CDR Item -> Aegis (If no one else will) -> Golem/Swifties -> Moar Tank. Capping CDR is critical because all your damage and utility is in your abilities, and the more often you can spam them the scarier you are. Because I'm running Slayer91's 20.80% CDR level 1 setup I can go Locket -> Kindlegem and just sit on that for CDR until I figure out if I want SV, Zeke's, or Shurelia's (or even another Locket, those cost-efficient stats).
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United States47024 Posts
Diamondprox did it guys its officially mainstream.
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I'd like to play it more but then again Mao and Nautilus are looking at me with such teary eyes. :< It's hard to practice so many junglers.
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can someone link the diamondprox game?
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I just had Nasus banned against me three times in a row. Five ranked games, lol, apparently my first two made a solid impresssion.
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United States47024 Posts
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On February 22 2013 04:00 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 03:47 obesechicken13 wrote:
There are other champions with amazing utility or damage scaling on their abilities: eg Jax. If I asked others if maxing E on Jax for the cooldown and trading power was worthwhile, people would answer no. Post remake Jax actually could do 80% of someone's life in one max E if he used minions to charge up the damage. This is misleading in a couple ways: 1) Numerically, a max E is not "80% of someone's life". The bonus damage cap is 300+1xAD (the AD ratio doesn't scale per rank, only by damage absorbed) at max rank, which is not significantly better than expected for a 5th rank nuke. 2) Jax is a Triforce champ. He's heavily hinged on the Triforce item timing--which requires him to have damage quite early. He needs Q and W ranks to be strong at that point in the game. It's a very different kind of power development than Nasus, who expects to be mostly a defensive/supportive teamfight champ dependent on his high baseline damage from E/R until 5th/6th item, where Q inevitably makes him strong. EDIT: I went back to check, the discussion a couple pages ago between Teut and Monte was basically all about relative jungle speed between Q and E max. I think if they're close enough to be worth comparing, E max is better because it's simply the better teamfight skill. Even if Q max is slightly better from a clearing-jungle perspective, I think ranks in E are stronger for teamfights.
I'm a little confused why people are talking about Jax in a Nasus thread, but Jax is not really Triforce based. You can get it on him later and it will be effective, but Blade of the Ruined King and Maw of Malmortius have become the best items for Jax. Maw because it provides a shield, both resistances, and a lot of damage, and Blade of the Ruined King because it scales so well with Attack Speed. I'm still not sure that going E first is the best plan on Jax, but I wouldn't call Jax a "Triforce based" champion any more. There really aren't a lot of champions any more that you need Triforce on like you used to, just because there are better items.
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Finally watched the LCS jungle Nasus game.
It looks like he used his "ms/as/arm/mr" page, which consists of Movespeed Quints, Attack Speed Marks, Armor Seals, and a mix of Flat and Scaling MR Glyphs. His "nasus" masteries page is 9/21/0, skipping the CDR in Offense for Attack Speed and taking Bladed Armor, and Unyielding + Block in Defense. The skill order he used was QEW, with a priority thereafter of R>E>W>Q (TheYango OP).
Red was taken first in order to facilitate a fast level 3 gank top. It was a smiteless leash, but it took considerable help to accomplish. Nasus rushed Spirit Stone, followed by Flask and Merc Treads. Next was Aegis -> Runic Bulwark, followed by a Kindlegem -> Locket. This focus on early MR made sense given that GIANTS ran a double AP composition.
The casters were continually impressed with how much he was stacking Q, but I think that was largely because they have no idea how much Nasus can actually stack if left to his own devices. 105 damage after 9 minutes of jungling/ganking is good, but isn't anything to phone home about. Because Diamondprox was playing a gank-heavy tanky/support style to counter the potential early pressure from Volibear he didn't have the opportunities to stack more damage.
Given that he was playing very much like other tanky/support junglers and lacked CDR his skill order makes sense (without CDR E first will definitely clear faster than Q). However, he seemed stymied by that lack of CDR. He literally had none when the mid-game hit, meaning there were 7 second gaps in Wither/Spirit Fire uptime. Given that he often had to hang back after soaking a lot of damage, having higher uptime on these abilities would have greatly increased his teamfight contributions and objective pressure.
Unfortunately, there really was nowhere in his build to squeeze in that CDR due to the pressure from the double AP composition. Merc Treads were definitely the right choice due to the lack of consistent slows in GIANTS' team composition, as was rushing Runic Bulwark to stack more MR against Double AP. Given his rune/mastery setup, entering the mid-game without CDR was unavoidable.
If nothing else, I look forward to fewer people questioning my sanity when I jungle Nasus.
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yeah the w and e nasus style works better when you cant really hit anyone with q a lot but im wondering if just picking amumu or something might have been better
the best part about it was the huge grin diamond had on his face when they picked jungle volibear
then he picked jungle nasus LOL
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United States47024 Posts
On February 25 2013 02:14 The Final Boss wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 04:00 TheYango wrote:On February 22 2013 03:47 obesechicken13 wrote:
There are other champions with amazing utility or damage scaling on their abilities: eg Jax. If I asked others if maxing E on Jax for the cooldown and trading power was worthwhile, people would answer no. Post remake Jax actually could do 80% of someone's life in one max E if he used minions to charge up the damage. This is misleading in a couple ways: 1) Numerically, a max E is not "80% of someone's life". The bonus damage cap is 300+1xAD (the AD ratio doesn't scale per rank, only by damage absorbed) at max rank, which is not significantly better than expected for a 5th rank nuke. 2) Jax is a Triforce champ. He's heavily hinged on the Triforce item timing--which requires him to have damage quite early. He needs Q and W ranks to be strong at that point in the game. It's a very different kind of power development than Nasus, who expects to be mostly a defensive/supportive teamfight champ dependent on his high baseline damage from E/R until 5th/6th item, where Q inevitably makes him strong. EDIT: I went back to check, the discussion a couple pages ago between Teut and Monte was basically all about relative jungle speed between Q and E max. I think if they're close enough to be worth comparing, E max is better because it's simply the better teamfight skill. Even if Q max is slightly better from a clearing-jungle perspective, I think ranks in E are stronger for teamfights. I'm a little confused why people are talking about Jax in a Nasus thread, but Jax is not really Triforce based. You can get it on him later and it will be effective, but Blade of the Ruined King and Maw of Malmortius have become the best items for Jax. Maw because it provides a shield, both resistances, and a lot of damage, and Blade of the Ruined King because it scales so well with Attack Speed. I'm still not sure that going E first is the best plan on Jax, but I wouldn't call Jax a "Triforce based" champion any more. There really aren't a lot of champions any more that you need Triforce on like you used to, just because there are better items.
The discussion was with regard to S2 Jax though because of how obesechicken13 was talking about Jax right after his remake.
Obviously there are other options in the game now.
On February 26 2013 04:06 Seuss wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Finally watched the LCS jungle Nasus game.
It looks like he used his "ms/as/arm/mr" page, which consists of Movespeed Quints, Attack Speed Marks, Armor Seals, and a mix of Flat and Scaling MR Glyphs. His "nasus" masteries page is 9/21/0, skipping the CDR in Offense for Attack Speed and taking Bladed Armor, and Unyielding + Block in Defense. The skill order he used was QEW, with a priority thereafter of R>E>W>Q (TheYango OP).
Red was taken first in order to facilitate a fast level 3 gank top. It was a smiteless leash, but it took considerable help to accomplish. Nasus rushed Spirit Stone, followed by Flask and Merc Treads. Next was Aegis -> Runic Bulwark, followed by a Kindlegem -> Locket. This focus on early MR made sense given that GIANTS ran a double AP composition.
The casters were continually impressed with how much he was stacking Q, but I think that was largely because they have no idea how much Nasus can actually stack if left to his own devices. 105 damage after 9 minutes of jungling/ganking is good, but isn't anything to phone home about. Because Diamondprox was playing a gank-heavy tanky/support style to counter the potential early pressure from Volibear he didn't have the opportunities to stack more damage.
Given that he was playing very much like other tanky/support junglers and lacked CDR his skill order makes sense (without CDR E first will definitely clear faster than Q). However, he seemed stymied by that lack of CDR. He literally had none when the mid-game hit, meaning there were 7 second gaps in Wither/Spirit Fire uptime. Given that he often had to hang back after soaking a lot of damage, having higher uptime on these abilities would have greatly increased his teamfight contributions and objective pressure.
Unfortunately, there really was nowhere in his build to squeeze in that CDR due to the pressure from the double AP composition. Merc Treads were definitely the right choice due to the lack of consistent slows in GIANTS' team composition, as was rushing Runic Bulwark to stack more MR against Double AP. Given his rune/mastery setup, entering the mid-game without CDR was unavoidable.
If nothing else, I look forward to fewer people questioning my sanity when I jungle Nasus.
The smoothest solution would naturally have been for Diamond to get Locket anyway and for Darien to get Bulwark.
EDIT: I'm not even sure that Aegis was more effective than Locket there to begin with. On a 45 MR benefactor with 1500 HP, Aegis adds equivalent EHP to having 195 more HP. At the level that Diamond finished Aegis, the Locket shield would be close to granting that HP value to begin with (160 or 170 HP), and the difference potentially doesn't outweigh the fact that you're getting CDR from Locket.
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On February 26 2013 04:19 Slayer91 wrote:
yeah the w and e nasus style works better when you cant really hit anyone with q a lot but im wondering if just picking amumu or something might have been better
the best part about it was the huge grin diamond had on his face when they picked jungle volibear
then he picked jungle nasus LOL
I think Nasus with capped CDR has the potential to impact a game as much as Amumu or similar champions. Chain Withers/Spirit Fires are extremely strong in a teamfight, and his objective pressure is extremely high thanks to Siphoning Strike. But without CDR he's just another jungle viable champion.
Diamondprox grinned because Wither > Speed Boosts. It literally lasts longer than Hecarim E or Volibear Q, screwing them over severely.
On February 26 2013 05:05 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 04:06 Seuss wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Finally watched the LCS jungle Nasus game.
It looks like he used his "ms/as/arm/mr" page, which consists of Movespeed Quints, Attack Speed Marks, Armor Seals, and a mix of Flat and Scaling MR Glyphs. His "nasus" masteries page is 9/21/0, skipping the CDR in Offense for Attack Speed and taking Bladed Armor, and Unyielding + Block in Defense. The skill order he used was QEW, with a priority thereafter of R>E>W>Q (TheYango OP).
Red was taken first in order to facilitate a fast level 3 gank top. It was a smiteless leash, but it took considerable help to accomplish. Nasus rushed Spirit Stone, followed by Flask and Merc Treads. Next was Aegis -> Runic Bulwark, followed by a Kindlegem -> Locket. This focus on early MR made sense given that GIANTS ran a double AP composition.
The casters were continually impressed with how much he was stacking Q, but I think that was largely because they have no idea how much Nasus can actually stack if left to his own devices. 105 damage after 9 minutes of jungling/ganking is good, but isn't anything to phone home about. Because Diamondprox was playing a gank-heavy tanky/support style to counter the potential early pressure from Volibear he didn't have the opportunities to stack more damage.
Given that he was playing very much like other tanky/support junglers and lacked CDR his skill order makes sense (without CDR E first will definitely clear faster than Q). However, he seemed stymied by that lack of CDR. He literally had none when the mid-game hit, meaning there were 7 second gaps in Wither/Spirit Fire uptime. Given that he often had to hang back after soaking a lot of damage, having higher uptime on these abilities would have greatly increased his teamfight contributions and objective pressure.
Unfortunately, there really was nowhere in his build to squeeze in that CDR due to the pressure from the double AP composition. Merc Treads were definitely the right choice due to the lack of consistent slows in GIANTS' team composition, as was rushing Runic Bulwark to stack more MR against Double AP. Given his rune/mastery setup, entering the mid-game without CDR was unavoidable.
If nothing else, I look forward to fewer people questioning my sanity when I jungle Nasus.
The smoothest solution would naturally have been for Diamond to get Locket anyway and for Darien to get Bulwark. EDIT: I'm not even sure that Aegis was more effective than Locket there to begin with. On a 45 MR benefactor with 1500 HP, Aegis adds equivalent EHP to having 195 more HP. At the level that Diamond finished Aegis, the Locket shield would be close to granting that HP value to begin with (160 or 170 HP), and the difference potentially doesn't outweigh the fact that you're getting CDR from Locket.
Do you think it would have been worth it for Darien to delay Warmog's for Aegis, or should he have waited? In the latter case he probably wouldn't have finished Aegis/Bulwark until roughly the 30-35 minute mark, which would have left his team without the 30 MR Aura for most of the mid-game (that seems pretty bad).
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United States47024 Posts
Someone more experienced on Renekton than I will have to speak about the comparative effectiveness of the items in question. I don't even own Renekton.
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Isn't the consensus that you barely even log in anyway? 
I tried your suggestion of building Zeke on a lane Nasus, where my experiences with Xin and Wukong have left me sorely disappointed as to the damage it brings, but on a CDR relying champ that Nasus I have to say that I was impressed. Since I don't rely on the AD much for my damage, being able to cast another Wither during ganks (I laned against a rather bad Udyr, but Bear Stance is still annoying when he knowns how to use bushes) or even to have Spirit Fire ready earlier to prevent jukes made an appreciable difference.
Some more lifesteal on top of your passive is also pretty absurd when your Q has the cd to be used on almost every last hit. I'll have to try it out in the jungle (last attempt was a bunch of solos against 2 premades, needless to say the inevitable invade didn't go well, nor did any other camp past the first 2 actually) but that's the first time I don't think buying Zeke is gimping myself.
As for pub play, people don't yell anymore when I pick Nasus but the Diamond wannabe accusations are second only to the "great leader, lead us to victory" jokes (crests can a bane ;_;).
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EPT
