EPT[Champion] Nasus - Page 11
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Eishi_Ki
Korea (South)1667 Posts
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NeedsmoreCELLTECH
Netherlands1242 Posts
On February 16 2013 18:43 Eishi_Ki wrote: Merc Treads, Shurelia's and a DShield in the early game would be pretty strong I imagine Can't seem to make Nasus work; the kiting and awful early game are really hard to deal with in soloQ. | ||
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Eishi_Ki
Korea (South)1667 Posts
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Locket->Bulwark core, then some combination of Abyssal, Randuin, Zeke's, Golem Spirit. Triforce as a 6th item. Abyssal is actually quite a good MR source for him. The AP is a little bit awkward, but he has high baseline magic damage, which benefits heavily from MPen. On February 16 2013 18:17 Eishi_Ki wrote: If anything, the Q buff gives you more incentive to max it first. Need that CDR Q max has the disadvantage of being absolute garbage as a midgame teamfight skill. W and E are crushingly strong midgame (Spirit Fire is one of the strongest flat armor shreds in the game--it instantly shreds the same amount of armor as a Gatling Gun that is constantly applied for full duration, while also applying a high amount of baseline magic damage). Q is basically there for having the inevitability of a strong lategame. It's not core to your midgame execution. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
Also, why don't you like Glacial items anymore? Inefficiency of resists? Do you really need EVEN MORE lifesteal? (Zekes) While I do see Zekes as being well-worth it now, I'm just not sure about it on Nasus, especially with both glacial items working well on him. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On February 21 2013 01:54 sylverfyre wrote: What about a couple points in Q to bring the CDR down a bit, but prioritizing W/E? If you're in the jungle, first rank Q is enough to let you always Q the first and last creep of each camp, which gives you the majority of Q stacks you can get per run (IIRC Monte showed that you get 3/4 of possible Q stacks on your first clear). The marginal gain of additional Q ranks is low because unlike in lane, you're still generally trying to kill things as fast as possible. Part of the value in Frozen before was the necessity for max mana items to help handle Nasus' high mana usage in extended teamfight scenarios, which is drastically reduced with the Q mana cost buff. I should amend what I said slightly. Frozen is still situationally good (Zeke's is bought with the express purpose of making your AD stronger, Frozen with the purpose of making theirs weaker, so one may be better than the other based on their comparative development), but I think Zeke's higher on-paper cost-efficiency makes it generally the preferable buy. Also, at the point where you'd buy it, Frozen's stats are somewhat awkward, as a pure armor item is not generally what you need at that point (Locket+Bulwark+Golem Spirit/Randuin/Abyssal--if you got Golem Spirit or Randuin you don't need an immediate armor item, and if you got Abyssal you need an HP item). I still don't think IBG provides enough practical value in comparison to either aura to make up its poor stats-based cost-efficiency. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
the reason not to buy glacial is you're paying for mana which hopefully you shouldn't need after laning phase at least and possibly not even then if you get flask early | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On February 21 2013 01:54 sylverfyre wrote: What about a couple points in Q to bring the CDR down a bit, but prioritizing W/E? Also, why don't you like Glacial items anymore? Inefficiency of resists? Do you really need EVEN MORE lifesteal? (Zekes) While I do see Zekes as being well-worth it now, I'm just not sure about it on Nasus, especially with both glacial items working well on him. I take a second point in Q at level 3 because it makes last-hitting easier (you haven't had much chance to really stack it) but doesn't stop you from maxing W by level 9. Maxing Q first was fun when the crit glitch was around, but it's not really worth it now (especially if you're running the 20% CDR opening). Maxing Q second is fine, as doubling your Q rate helps make you scary in team fights (provided you've been farming it well). Maxing E second is situational, typically when your team has a lot of physical AoE. | ||
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Mondeezy
United States1938 Posts
I hear all the rage about him in GD, currently posting from mobile and looking to try it out once I get home. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On February 21 2013 03:42 Seuss wrote:Maxing E second is situational, typically when your team has a lot of physical AoE. I don't even think it needs that. E has very high base damage that matches most up-front nukes after 1-2 ticks of over-time damage. It's quite practical as a teamfight damage skill even without needing an exceptional amount of AoE physical damage and just standard right-click damage from 3 physical damage dealers. I also don't feel like maxing W first is necessarily the way to go. The attack speed slow component suffers no diminishing returns, and so is very practical in fights, but in gank scenarios, you're bumping up against diminishing returns on slows below 220 MS. It seems most practical for one to level W to a certain point, then start leveling E, opting to finish off W later, when the teamfight AS slow is more relevant and enemy champs have higher MS. If we assume a typical Boots 2 champ has ~380 MS, then we're looking at a 45% slow to take the target to the soft-cap on slows. Which means it takes 4.17/2.08/1.39/1.04/0.83 second (by rank) for the target to be slowed to the MS soft-cap. The obvious point here being how the marginal gain on the further ranks shrinks, and stopping W at 2-3 ranks seeming like the most practical option. I'm not 100% sure whether the Wither slow is continuous or whether it's applied per-second (or perhaps an even smaller interval than that). If it's applied per-second then it means that depending on enemy champ MS, the early-midgame place to stop W is either 2, 3, or 4 ranks, as on one of those ranks, the next rank will fail to slow the enemy champ to the MS softcap 1 second sooner, making that rank practically less useful than the previous ones. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
Thus at rank 1 a 380 MS champion reaches 224.2 MS after 2 seconds, leaving 3 more where they bump up or pass the soft cap. Rank 2 reaches this point after 1 second. So if your concern is the movement speed soft cap, then rank 2 should be sufficient. I was actually maxing Wither for the lower cooldown more than the slow, as reaching rank 5 with 40% cooldown reduction shrinks the cooldown to 6.6 seconds, leaving a mere 1.6 second window where an opponent isn't slowed. That's brutal for ganking and chasing. With only two ranks the window is more than twice that, 3.4 seconds. It's still strong, but not quite so brutal. You are right that E has high base damage, even if they only take the initial blast and a single tick. I'll have to experiment with that when I have the chance, though the increased mana cost for clearing the jungle concerns me. | ||
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mordek
United States12705 Posts
We faced lulu ashe which was kind of brutal for support dog, especially when Ez ate every glitterlance without fail. However! When Trundle showed up it was a guaranteed kill every time. He would ping, I withered, he would pillar, and ashe was dead  I'm not even sure if Ez helped most of the time lol. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14047 Posts
every ez I get can't hit skill shots and always get hit by skill shots idk what to do about them. | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On February 21 2013 18:02 Seuss wrote: For reference, Wither updates four times, once per second after the initial cast (no Tenacity). So the slow increases by 3/6/9/12/15% per tick. Thus at rank 1 a 380 MS champion reaches 224.2 MS after 2 seconds, leaving 3 more where they bump up or pass the soft cap. Rank 2 reaches this point after 1 second. So if your concern is the movement speed soft cap, then rank 2 should be sufficient. I was actually maxing Wither for the lower cooldown more than the slow, as reaching rank 5 with 40% cooldown reduction shrinks the cooldown to 6.6 seconds, leaving a mere 1.6 second window where an opponent isn't slowed. That's brutal for ganking and chasing. With only two ranks the window is more than twice that, 3.4 seconds. It's still strong, but not quite so brutal. You are right that E has high base damage, even if they only take the initial blast and a single tick. I'll have to experiment with that when I have the chance, though the increased mana cost for clearing the jungle concerns me. The reason I never considered wither first Nasus is because the amount of movement speed interrupted is less than either a rammus taunt or a Fiddle fear. I know they are different champions but wouldn't they feel the same up until level 6-9 ish? Significantly less than most knockbacks too I presume, also you reach the movement speed hard floor, it slows your clears, and worsens your dueling/laning potential, and mid game Q damage, while doing nothing against dashes meaning your opponent can walk a bit while not significantly slowed, and then eat up the latter part of the slow with spells like Jayce's knockback, Nidalee pounce, Several dashes, etc... I just think you'd be a rammus with no movement speed slow, no speed buff, and half the levels in E for too long. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14047 Posts
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mordek
United States12705 Posts
On February 22 2013 00:13 Sermokala wrote: We don't think its terrible we think its srs op with people who do a lot of physical damage and could use someone to just sit in a spot for a while so he can get his full combo off. every ez I get can't hit skill shots and always get hit by skill shots idk what to do about them. Honestly, if lulu and ashe had warded better they wouldn't have died to trundle ganks. Before that we were getting absolutely pooped on by the poke and they were pushing wave hard. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
Nasus doesn't feel the same as Rammus and Fiddle for several important reasons:
That's not to say that maxing Wither is incontrovertibly the best option. The odd thing about Nasus is that he may be the only jungler in the game whose skill order is largely contextual. Q, W, and E all have significant merits which alter their importance depending on the circumstances and/or playstyle preferences. The key is to figure out what works for you and why without blindly dismissing the other options (hence my intent to experiment with E at TheYango's behest). | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On February 22 2013 01:28 Seuss wrote: The movement speed interruption of Wither is less, but not by much. Assuming 380 MS the 3 seconds of Taunt/Fear interrupt 1140 movement. If you calculate out Wither and all the diminishing returns, you get 1004 movement interrupted, 88.1% as much as Taunt/Fear. Obviously that's not equal, but it's extremely close. Nasus doesn't feel the same as Rammus and Fiddle for several important reasons:
That's not to say that maxing Wither is incontrovertibly the best option. The odd thing about Nasus is that he may be the only jungler in the game whose skill order is largely contextual. Q, W, and E all have significant merits which alter their importance depending on the circumstances and/or playstyle preferences. The key is to figure out what works for you and why without blindly dismissing the other options (hence my intent to experiment with E at TheYango's behest). What champion has 380 ms? In this no boots meta? Also the first level in wither is worth a lot more than the next few levels compared to how well fear and taunt scale. And slows stack horribly with each other and don't do as well at interrupting escapes. In my experience stun junglers have much better ganks than slow junglers. I'd have to try Nasus max W, but I don't think it would work. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On February 22 2013 01:58 obesechicken13 wrote: What champion has 380 ms? In this no boots meta? Also the first level in wither is worth a lot more than the next few levels compared to how well fear and taunt scale. And slows stack horribly with each other and don't do as well at interrupting escapes. In my experience stun junglers have much better ganks than slow junglers. I'd have to try Nasus max W, but I don't think it would work. By the time junglers start hitting level 9 it's fairly safe to assume that your opponents will average around 380 MS. Fear/Taunt's scaling per rank is irrelevant. We already know how Wither compares to them at maximum rank, and Nasus isn't choosing between Wither, Fear, and Taunt when deciding his skill order. What matters is the value per rank of Soul Siphon and Spirit Fire. Incidentally, all three of Nasus normal abilities get a lot more out of their first rank than those that come after, which is why there isn't a clear best option to max first. We're long past the point where asking, "Does this work?" is relevant. Right now we're trying to discern which of the three working options is best. | ||
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