On October 20 2013 05:38 HughMyron wrote: Honestly, I really can't justify choosing Irelia right now when there's Jax, who does more damage and is tankier. Irelia's advantages over him, involving CC-resistance, on-demand CC, and sustain, aren't really that useful right now.
I think the one place Irelia is better than Jax is against Ranged Toplaners. So I keep her as a counterpick against the occasional weirdo who goes Lissandra or Quinn Top.
I feel like Irelia handles "vs. manaless bully" top lane matchups much better too, due to having sustain that she doesn't need to spend mana on, and the super short-CD stun. Jax really struggles in matchups like that.
1) Lee beats Irelia the first 3-4 levels or so. After that, Irelia beats him (especially after the first back). Never been afraid of Lee as Irelia.
2) Riven's a challenge if you either fight her levels 1-4, or snowball her. If you stay even, you can definitely outduel her after the first/second back (and you pick up armor). Even snowballed, you can beat her with proper itemization. Been trying to figure out whether cloth+5 or Dorans would be better vs Riven (given the tendency for them to start with a damn Red Pot and have more sustain than the Dorans Shield+1 pot can provide).
3) It's hard for me to say that Irelia outlanes Jax between levels 6-11 reliably. Whereas Irelia has a slight advantage pre-6, post-6 it's an somewhat upwards (skill) matchup. You can leverage your sustain and outplay him by watching his E CD and mana bar, but unless you snowball it starts moving into his favor. Again, snowbally lane: if you are able to bully him around early and come up with an item advantage or somesuch, the lane is yours (vice-versa for Jax; he can shut you down so damn hard if he gets ahead).
4) I honestly still go BorK these days. Gives you the ability to duel virtually anyone, and enough sustain to stay in lane (plus Cutlass retains alot of cost-efficiency), and allows you to win lanes even when behind (plenty of times I've been behind in lane, then rapidly retake control of it after completing BorK). These days I tend to go BorK-Tri-tanky items as a build path. Relies on a primary initiator on your team (then again, you should never pick Irelia if you don't have one), but works very well.
Basically any matchup where you are disadvantaged for more than the first 3-4 levels you should go botrk. triforce is reserved almost entirely for lanes where you can get it first after a dblade(dshield) and not fall behind.
Also go blade vs any sunfire rushing champs. Triforce won't do jack shit for allowing you to duel them unless you're really far ahead.
Agreed on most of those points. Jax matchup is a lot on abusing shorter stun cd and outplaying the stun whenever possible with a well timed Q to a creep.
Although Darius still pretty much hard counters irelia, so there's still that one almost unwinnable matchup.
On October 21 2013 06:18 Lord Tolkien wrote: 1) Lee beats Irelia the first 3-4 levels or so. After that, Irelia beats him (especially after the first back). Never been afraid of Lee as Irelia.
2) Riven's a challenge if you either fight her levels 1-4, or snowball her. If you stay even, you can definitely outduel her after the first/second back (and you pick up armor). Even snowballed, you can beat her with proper itemization. Been trying to figure out whether cloth+5 or Dorans would be better vs Riven (given the tendency for them to start with a damn Red Pot and have more sustain than the Dorans Shield+1 pot can provide).
3) It's hard for me to say that Irelia outlanes Jax between levels 6-11 reliably. Whereas Irelia has a slight advantage pre-6, post-6 it's an somewhat upwards (skill) matchup. You can leverage your sustain and outplay him by watching his E CD and mana bar, but unless you snowball it starts moving into his favor. Again, snowbally lane: if you are able to bully him around early and come up with an item advantage or somesuch, the lane is yours (vice-versa for Jax; he can shut you down so damn hard if he gets ahead).
4) I honestly still go BorK these days. Gives you the ability to duel virtually anyone, and enough sustain to stay in lane (plus Cutlass retains alot of cost-efficiency), and allows you to win lanes even when behind (plenty of times I've been behind in lane, then rapidly retake control of it after completing BorK). These days I tend to go BorK-Tri-tanky items as a build path. Relies on a primary initiator on your team (then again, you should never pick Irelia if you don't have one), but works very well.
Riven play is a blackbox of itemization and skill leveling for people who are good with her.
Haven't played a single Darius since his nerfs. My experience was that the matchup was alright (if very snowbally), and I generally won the lane despite it appearing (in theory) to be a terrible lane (mitigating factors like player skill not included). Again, pretty much only had S2 experience with that matchup, so it's probably pretty antiquated.
On October 21 2013 07:03 Amui wrote: Basically any matchup where you are disadvantaged for more than the first 3-4 levels you should go botrk. triforce is reserved almost entirely for lanes where you can get it first after a dblade(dshield) and not fall behind.
Also go blade vs any sunfire rushing champs. Triforce won't do jack shit for allowing you to duel them unless you're really far ahead.
Agreed on most of those points. Jax matchup is a lot on abusing shorter stun cd and outplaying the stun whenever possible with a well timed Q to a creep.
Although Darius still pretty much hard counters irelia, so there's still that one almost unwinnable matchup.
think irelia is better vs darius than a lot of other melees honestly botrk vs champs you only beat past lvl 3/4 doesn't make much sense. botrk kinda sucks until you finish it, but its good against the really tanky guys. getting 2x dorans blade+armor into trinity is a decent alternative though. Not like having only a phage and 2 dorans is going to be worse than a bilgewater + 2 daggers in a fight
On October 21 2013 06:18 Lord Tolkien wrote: 1) Lee beats Irelia the first 3-4 levels or so. After that, Irelia beats him (especially after the first back). Never been afraid of Lee as Irelia.
2) Riven's a challenge if you either fight her levels 1-4, or snowball her. If you stay even, you can definitely outduel her after the first/second back (and you pick up armor). Even snowballed, you can beat her with proper itemization. Been trying to figure out whether cloth+5 or Dorans would be better vs Riven (given the tendency for them to start with a damn Red Pot and have more sustain than the Dorans Shield+1 pot can provide).
3) It's hard for me to say that Irelia outlanes Jax between levels 6-11 reliably. Whereas Irelia has a slight advantage pre-6, post-6 it's an somewhat upwards (skill) matchup. You can leverage your sustain and outplay him by watching his E CD and mana bar, but unless you snowball it starts moving into his favor. Again, snowbally lane: if you are able to bully him around early and come up with an item advantage or somesuch, the lane is yours (vice-versa for Jax; he can shut you down so damn hard if he gets ahead).
4) I honestly still go BorK these days. Gives you the ability to duel virtually anyone, and enough sustain to stay in lane (plus Cutlass retains alot of cost-efficiency), and allows you to win lanes even when behind (plenty of times I've been behind in lane, then rapidly retake control of it after completing BorK). These days I tend to go BorK-Tri-tanky items as a build path. Relies on a primary initiator on your team (then again, you should never pick Irelia if you don't have one), but works very well.
What Lee's are you meeting? Everytime i see a Lee Sin, i'll never pick Irelia, because that match-up is just a begging to get shutdown. AS reduction, sustain with shield and his ult, makes it near impossible for you to do anything. Idk, maybe i used to play it wrong, but the only times i'd win that lane, would be if he either sucked terribly or i had a successful gank very early so i'd be ahead in experience.
On October 21 2013 07:03 Amui wrote: Basically any matchup where you are disadvantaged for more than the first 3-4 levels you should go botrk. triforce is reserved almost entirely for lanes where you can get it first after a dblade(dshield) and not fall behind.
Also go blade vs any sunfire rushing champs. Triforce won't do jack shit for allowing you to duel them unless you're really far ahead.
Agreed on most of those points. Jax matchup is a lot on abusing shorter stun cd and outplaying the stun whenever possible with a well timed Q to a creep.
Although Darius still pretty much hard counters irelia, so there's still that one almost unwinnable matchup.
think irelia is better vs darius than a lot of other melees honestly botrk vs champs you only beat past lvl 3/4 doesn't make much sense. botrk kinda sucks until you finish it, but its good against the really tanky guys. getting 2x dorans blade+armor into trinity is a decent alternative though. Not like having only a phage and 2 dorans is going to be worse than a bilgewater + 2 daggers in a fight
I think my wording could've been a bit more clear. Blade is for matchups where you lose for a lot of levels. The sustain difference between a phage vs bilge is rather large.
Not too sold on double doran's +armor(assuming it's mroe than just tabi's) +triforce. It feels like it comes out so late in comparison to a blade, and the relative damage difference from blade to triforce against a sunfire+ target feels pretty huge.
What Lee's are you meeting? Everytime i see a Lee Sin, i'll never pick Irelia, because that match-up is just a begging to get shutdown. AS reduction, sustain with shield and his ult, makes it near impossible for you to do anything. Idk, maybe i used to play it wrong, but the only times i'd win that lane, would be if he either sucked terribly or i had a successful gank very early so i'd be ahead in experience.
I don't think it's a matchup you can really win too hard without getting serious help, and you are unlikely to solo kill without being really ahead or him screwing up, but you should be able to farm up. Can be a pretty scary matchup against hydra first lees though because of how much damage can come out along with the ludicrous sustain from W+hydra.
At the same time I don't feel like it's a hard losing matchup either.
On October 21 2013 06:18 Lord Tolkien wrote: 1) Lee beats Irelia the first 3-4 levels or so. After that, Irelia beats him (especially after the first back). Never been afraid of Lee as Irelia.
2) Riven's a challenge if you either fight her levels 1-4, or snowball her. If you stay even, you can definitely outduel her after the first/second back (and you pick up armor). Even snowballed, you can beat her with proper itemization. Been trying to figure out whether cloth+5 or Dorans would be better vs Riven (given the tendency for them to start with a damn Red Pot and have more sustain than the Dorans Shield+1 pot can provide).
3) It's hard for me to say that Irelia outlanes Jax between levels 6-11 reliably. Whereas Irelia has a slight advantage pre-6, post-6 it's an somewhat upwards (skill) matchup. You can leverage your sustain and outplay him by watching his E CD and mana bar, but unless you snowball it starts moving into his favor. Again, snowbally lane: if you are able to bully him around early and come up with an item advantage or somesuch, the lane is yours (vice-versa for Jax; he can shut you down so damn hard if he gets ahead).
4) I honestly still go BorK these days. Gives you the ability to duel virtually anyone, and enough sustain to stay in lane (plus Cutlass retains alot of cost-efficiency), and allows you to win lanes even when behind (plenty of times I've been behind in lane, then rapidly retake control of it after completing BorK). These days I tend to go BorK-Tri-tanky items as a build path. Relies on a primary initiator on your team (then again, you should never pick Irelia if you don't have one), but works very well.
What Lee's are you meeting? Everytime i see a Lee Sin, i'll never pick Irelia, because that match-up is just a begging to get shutdown. AS reduction, sustain with shield and his ult, makes it near impossible for you to do anything. Idk, maybe i used to play it wrong, but the only times i'd win that lane, would be if he either sucked terribly or i had a successful gank very early so i'd be ahead in experience.
yeah but once you get some armour he deals no damage to you and you can at least get some true damage off with E stun+q auto reset. he wins quite a bit early on for sure. maybe irelia isn't the best pick against him because you want to win lanes and its hard to win bcause of leesins ways of getting away but i wouldn't call it a "counterpick". you just pick like nasus against lee huehue.
2x dorans + armour obviously doesnt work against tanky targets. (renek is maybe the exception because he's mostly physical but tends to build tanky cause sunfire+his ult is a lot of dps). Tanky guys normally don't rely purely on burst and physical damage and outdps/sustaining them with botrk is the best. Rushing botrk without armour is risky against people like riven so you want armour anyway, and triforce is a bit better in teamfights if most of the laning phase is done before you finish botrk.
I don't understand the rationale behind thinking botrk > trinity if you're losing early levels. Irelia loses a lot of matchups early levels and in the lanes that you have particularly a lot of trouble early like Riven, you shouldn't even be thinking of cutlass/phage and just be getting armor in your first back. Sustain items aren't going to help you with lanes like that at all.
yeah it really doesnt make sense. Irelia "loses" nearly every lane early on. But you farm so well under tower you don't really "lose" and after level 7 or so is when you start winning. botrk is good against tanky guys and trinity is good everywhere else
Usually Dorans Shield + Tabis is enough armor sustain if I'm having trouble. Then i'll work towards Trinity. If everything is fine in lane then skip t2 boots and go trinity faster.
I do usually always start dshield + pot for lane though.
On October 22 2013 00:32 koreasilver wrote: I don't understand the rationale behind thinking botrk > trinity if you're losing early levels. Irelia loses a lot of matchups early levels and in the lanes that you have particularly a lot of trouble early like Riven, you shouldn't even be thinking of cutlass/phage and just be getting armor in your first back. Sustain items aren't going to help you with lanes like that at all.
While I don't think you should automatically get it if you "lose", it's an extremely potent dueling item if you're building for lane/splitpushing, and as a first damage item, is generally better if you need the extra dueling potential over trinity (which is better in teamfights). BorK allows you to outduel the same opponents as Trinity, but the opposite is not true. BorK and its components are a good first choice vs. Renekton/Shen/Singed (especially given the sustain it gives to survive Shen harass), or low burst tops that put out consistent harass damage (think Kennen), and with the W passive gives you a minor version of an Aatrox turnaround. If the Shen is just throwing Qs at you to whittle you down, a Cutlass is more than enough to keep you in lane against it.
Painting in broad strokes, you should: 1) go for a Trinity if you can afford to in lane (and are looking to participate in teamfights relatively early). 2) go for a BorK if you can't (or can no longer) duel them with Trinity/components (and are looking to stay in lane longer/are against laners whom are weak to BorK). 3) go for resistances/tanky stats if neither will help (Riven and, to a lesser extent, Lee Sin territory).
Personally, I prefer playing as a quasi-splitpusher who both draws pressure top and remains in lane until fairly late, so I have no compunctions going BorK into Trinity (into tanky stats). The dueling potential BorK gives cannot be understated, and it mitigates alot of the defensive itemization people go for against Irelia.
My starts these days tend to look at either flask+4 pots (stay awhile longer for the extra pot), Dshield+1, or cloth+5, depending on the lane I'm up against.
He is correct about Fiora being picked (with a higher winrate) than Irelia, aka. Fiora is more popular and more viable than Irelia.
As someone who plays both champions, wat
Though he's spot on about the Season 4 changes.
Haven't touched irelia in a while. If anything, things just got worse for her since S3(where she already fell out of favor, haven't touched her). I don't think anything is inherently wrong with her kit either(just numbers). She doesn't do damage without damage items(Q/E don't nuke particularly hard even when maxed first, and even then, she'll have zip for followup, renekton, rengar, mundo and even olaf have better sustain, and along with riven have massively better early game pushing, trading and scaling in S4. She can't push without using her ult(ult nerf really hurt there, can't use it to clear and have it up for a teamfight as easily), and she also has mana, despite her skills being fairly low cost so they can push her out of lane simply by outlasting her.
so guys feral flare, jungle irelia maybe a thing now?
i run attack speed quints, take blue/red/wraith/wolves/wight and back for madred's, can get a wriggle's ~6:30 (take first two blue buffs). first item after that is a stinger (for a zephyr later on but the 40% as and 10%cdr are very cost effective), wriggles becomes feral flare at like 13-14mins in an average game. with a stinger you clear jungle like a monster, you have a lot of time in between clears to gank. first big item is botrk, sometimes i get a phage before the cutlass if i want a bit more hp. usually ninja tabi for boots. full build is something like ~ tabi / botrk / feral flare / triforce / frozen heart / zephyr.
whats really cool is that with feral flare, you can always q -> reset on any ranged creep, and with enough stacks you get resets on melee creeps too.
There are too many good Feral Flare junglers that are better than irelia, either because of stronger early game and/or better splitpushing (the main strength of Feral Flare). Those would be namely Yi, Nocturne, Shyvana, Tryndamere, probably Volibear as well. And then you still have competition from Elder Lizard junglers, especially Panth and Kha. I'd dare say it's never optimal to jungle Irelia.
On April 11 2014 15:29 Scip wrote: There are too many good Feral Flare junglers that are better than irelia, either because of stronger early game and/or better splitpushing (the main strength of Feral Flare). Those would be namely Yi, Nocturne, Shyvana, Tryndamere, probably Volibear as well. And then you still have competition from Elder Lizard junglers, especially Panth and Kha. I'd dare say it's never optimal to jungle Irelia.
It's funny because Irelia's kit seems like it would be pretty decent at jungling too, but yeah she's not very good
EPT
