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[Champion] Kassadin - Page 5

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Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11767 Posts
September 17 2011 19:18 GMT
#81
See, I'm not even as extreme. I'm fine with miniguides, as I've done random ones in various threads too. The difference is that mine were 1) Lanemumu (opened some eyes) 2) Cata jungle opening on Amumu (again, opened some eyes) and 3) Jungle Rammus with Wriggles (had some discussion until Loci validated Turkey and I's opinion. Shit that hasn't been done or just isn't in the OP. I also didn't advertise myself when posting something.

As for Kass with blue buff, don't get me wrong, I love having blue buff with Kassadin (I call it super fun time), but you're kidding yourself if you think he does the MOST with it. Heroes like Malzahar (even if he's not a favored blue buff option) will literally 1v5 poke a tower siege down with blue buff. Heroes like Swain can carry with blue buff and simply die in 3 seconds without. There're some make-or-break heroes and heroes that can perform acts of God with blue buff. For Kassadin all it does is increase the amount of times he can perform his short-to-mid-ranged spells. Great, but not necessarily game-changing. Now if you have no other real option and Kassadin is your AP carry yes, obviously Kassadin needs it more. I've lost a lot of games where a fight broke out while I was saying I needed blue buff and I simply ran out of mana mid-fight and we crumbled.
oraoraoraoraoraoraoraora
clickrush
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Switzerland3257 Posts
September 18 2011 11:57 GMT
#82
On September 18 2011 04:18 Southlight wrote:
See, I'm not even as extreme. I'm fine with miniguides, as I've done random ones in various threads too. The difference is that mine were 1) Lanemumu (opened some eyes) 2) Cata jungle opening on Amumu (again, opened some eyes) and 3) Jungle Rammus with Wriggles (had some discussion until Loci validated Turkey and I's opinion. Shit that hasn't been done or just isn't in the OP. I also didn't advertise myself when posting something.

As for Kass with blue buff, don't get me wrong, I love having blue buff with Kassadin (I call it super fun time), but you're kidding yourself if you think he does the MOST with it. Heroes like Malzahar (even if he's not a favored blue buff option) will literally 1v5 poke a tower siege down with blue buff. Heroes like Swain can carry with blue buff and simply die in 3 seconds without. There're some make-or-break heroes and heroes that can perform acts of God with blue buff. For Kassadin all it does is increase the amount of times he can perform his short-to-mid-ranged spells. Great, but not necessarily game-changing. Now if you have no other real option and Kassadin is your AP carry yes, obviously Kassadin needs it more. I've lost a lot of games where a fight broke out while I was saying I needed blue buff and I simply ran out of mana mid-fight and we crumbled.


I agree. Even if you are the n1 candidate for bluebuff, you should not build so you are completely reliant on it. Saying you "should" have bluebuff all the time its up is unrealistic. You die and you lose it, your jungler ganks bottom and theirs steals it, you dont have time to get it, you want to do baron and your solo top is oom...
oGsMC: Zealot defense, Stalker attack, Sentry forcefieldu forcefieldu, Marauder die die
r.Evo
Profile Joined August 2006
Germany14080 Posts
September 18 2011 12:01 GMT
#83
On September 17 2011 17:53 -Trippin- wrote:
For the sake of veering this discussion into something constructive (away from our little dick measuring contest), I think that blue buff is more important on Kassadin than almost any other hero in the game. Having the blue buff on Kassadin allows for you to blink around farming everything without fear of running out of mana for an important engagement. This makes Kassadin one of the best farmers in the game (probably the best period) and it allows him to explode out of control if you allow him to keep the blue buff.


tl;dr:
"I don't care about the argument but blue buff is pretty good on casters."

First few pages have been real good. :/


I started slowly "getting" Kassa after like my 10th try, however I have one major question for you:


wtf is the difference in playstyle between the Catalyst -> AP and the Tears -> Mejais -> GA build?

I mean, the cata won't really change when you explode and when you dont. So, aren't both "Vulture builds"?


Also, did you ever play around with WotA? My gut says it should make sense for those long, drawn out fights (which kassa kinda loves).
"We don't make mistakes here, we call it happy little accidents." ~Bob Ross
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11767 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-18 20:02:02
September 18 2011 19:48 GMT
#84
Hmm, it's hard for me to say because I've never pulled off the latter with any consistency, but with the former you play him like any other AP hero, to be honest. He has less range, but you still focus on outputting maximum damage.

With the latter, you're playing more like a support hero for a while, until you start rolling. The itemization early means that you have no extra survival and no extra damage. It's focused on giving you some mana-based battle sustain and getting gold efficiency out of teamfights, assuming that you ensure your own survival after kills/assists.

Edit:
Essentially, focus on damage vs focus on perfect CC, early on.

WotA probably is nice, though his mass AoE and relatively high CDs might mean his spellvamp isn't as noticeable as you might think. I tend to be high on WotA anyways because it's one of the cheapest 80AP items though. I still would think it's hard to jostle Deathcap/Void out of position as two core damage items no matter what, but if you run like a heavy tanking style (ala original OP) then it probably wouldn't hurt.
oraoraoraoraoraoraoraora
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11767 Posts
September 19 2011 15:30 GMT
#85
So some experimentation in an attempt to learn how to love again.

Running ye olde 34 armor 13 MR (or something like that) runepage with 21 defense for SoS AND Nimble (and 9 util) with a Cloth +5pot opening allows him to deal with bruisers. Against non-jumpers like Udyr you can open Regrowth+pot and if you play it perfectly you can actually yack his HP quite a bit. Whenever he goes for you if he has Tiger you can either kite him or just fight back with W. Pretty funky.

No amount of rune/mastery yackity made me prevent a crushing defeat to lame ranged AD heroes like Caitlyn. Fortunately for whatever reason you don't see this in solo lane as much, but worth noting. Probably another cloth+5 pot matchup.

Not notable, but I suppose worth mentioning that the flat 34(ish) MR page seemed redundant, as i didn't really feel a difference.

I've been racking my mind on how to come up with a more HP-sustainable opening, as I honestly feel that Cata is too weak now (especially without being able to stack it anymore), and PStone is nice but doesn't seem like "enough." Enough that I pondered opening Wriggles, lol. If anyone has a better idea I'm all ears.
oraoraoraoraoraoraoraora
SHr3DD3r
Profile Joined March 2009
Pakistan2137 Posts
September 19 2011 15:40 GMT
#86
I actually dunno my self. But what I saw xPeke run vs TL EU was that he had hp5 seals, and he started with dorans shield. He was quite tanky mid. Dunno if its really a viable solution - just putting it out there.
Hit them hard! Hit them low! - Forever a Bisu Fan!~!
Two_DoWn
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States13684 Posts
September 19 2011 15:42 GMT
#87
I ran armor, movespeed, and 2 mpen blues for 30 mpen with sorcs the other day. It actually worked very well. You trade the pop on q for the ability to just kinda coast around and farm as much as you want. I still need to try playing him with ap quints just to see if that actually makes a difference in terms of damage.

For items I just went cata, tear, sorcs, cap, bv, void (I cant remember if i built a ROA with the first cata, im pretty sure I at least thought about it fairly hard). Laning post 6 essentially came down to fighting and killing my lane opponent, being at too low health to really farm all that much safely, going back, and repeating the process. Worked well enough since I ended up 11-0-13 and could beast them all, only I didnt really need to cuz Shitcombo's power cho was doing that already.
"What is the air speed velocity of an unladen courier?" "Dire or Radiant?"
spinesheath
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany8679 Posts
September 19 2011 15:46 GMT
#88
I would get Dodge seals if you go for nimbleness and also have a lot of armor on marks/quints/masteries/cloth.

The solution to the HP sustain issue is obviously to get Cata + Philo.
Before you consider getting Wriggle's on Kass, you really should just stock up on potions more generously. Assuming you already have the cloth and we consider a duration of 15 minutes for the wards (=5 wards), then Wriggle's needs to compete with 26 potions. Potions win.
If you have a good reason to disagree with the above, please tell me. Thank you.
Juicyfruit
Profile Joined May 2008
Canada5484 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-19 15:47:43
September 19 2011 15:46 GMT
#89
I personally think going more offensive build is more useful than straight up trying to tank since for the most part you just can't outtank the harass and you are still going to get pushed regardless so might as make them scared of a jungle gank with constant Q balls to the face but w/e.

Since Kassadin does really well with teleport the sustain issue goes away a little but pretty much always going to be behind on creepscore unless you straight up win the lane.
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11767 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-19 15:52:27
September 19 2011 15:47 GMT
#90
@Shr3dd3r
full hp5 seals only gives like 3.87 hp per 5, which on conjunction with DShield is 11.87 (or 12).
Regrowth is 15.

Interesting thought though is that HP5 Seals + Quints is 11.97, which is what Shitcombo told me he runs on certain heroes. Certainly food for thought with regrowth (for a total of +26 hp5 at level 1 on) and like a Cloth opening to shore up armor.

The problem is that I feel that HP Regen is great against AP heroes but not so much against bruisers and ranged AD, both of whom can hammer you with impunity. Not sure, would need to test.

@TD
The post-starting items don't matter to me. It's honestly the first 10-15 minutes that bothers me. It's impossible to keep up with a Cait for instance, especially one who just fires ult at you on CD. Her traps + ult hurt your CS so much that you end up with like 1/3 her CS which is terrible.

Edit:
On September 20 2011 00:46 spinesheath wrote:
I would get Dodge seals if you go for nimbleness and also have a lot of armor on marks/quints/masteries/cloth.

The solution to the HP sustain issue is obviously to get Cata + Philo.
Before you consider getting Wriggle's on Kass, you really should just stock up on potions more generously. Assuming you already have the cloth and we consider a duration of 15 minutes for the wards (=5 wards), then Wriggle's needs to compete with 26 potions. Potions win.


Yeah going to switch around runeset to have dodge 'cause I'm running Nimble.

Edit2:
On September 20 2011 00:46 Juicyfruit wrote:
I personally think going more offensive build is more useful than straight up trying to tank since for the most part you just can't outtank the harass and you are still going to get pushed regardless so might as make them scared of a jungle gank with constant Q balls to the face but w/e.

Since Kassadin does really well with teleport the sustain issue goes away a little but pretty much always going to be behind on creepscore unless you straight up win the lane.


I used to run straight offense with MPen quints and everything to just try to hammer them, the problem is that ranged AD (and bruisers) hit a certain point where their sustain and max HP is simply better than Kass' Q cooldown. Culminating in this exchange with Turkey:

[9/18/2011 11:20:50 PM] nightseternal: i honestly think
[9/18/2011 11:20:53 PM] nightseternal: they need to lower cd on q :/
[9/18/2011 11:22:21 PM] stuffed_turkey: like 1 second off CD and 10 less mana all levels
[9/18/2011 11:22:23 PM] stuffed_turkey: imo

Edit3:
Also for the record I already do run PStone -> Cata, and I spam potions up the arse. The problem is that he falls behind SO BADLY in CS against ranged AD. He tends to struggle vs bruisers too (hence why I say he gets shit on by 2/3 the heroes in the game) but the Cloth+5 with defensive runes and masteries offsets, so that he's still behind but he can still 'get his farm' relative to opponents. So that's slightly less an issue.

Ranged AD is just absolutely brutal, primarily Cait and MF, although good Trists tend to fuck him up as well. This is really "the last bastion" for me, as I'm a bit more open to playing Kass now that I can at least hang with bruisers, and the primary counterpick in lane got nerfed (Mord).
oraoraoraoraoraoraoraora
Two_DoWn
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States13684 Posts
September 19 2011 16:01 GMT
#91
Give jiji's cass page a go (id sub ap/lvl yellows for armor if i knew i was going up against a ranged ad), and open up boots+3. I was laning against an mf and had enough mobility to do whatever the hell I wanted, even against strut.

Cait is hard cuz she hits like a truck and has super range. If i had to play against her i'd grab that supermovespeed page and just try to zoom around and minimize the amount of autos im taking pre 6, then just try to kill her post 6.
"What is the air speed velocity of an unladen courier?" "Dire or Radiant?"
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11767 Posts
September 19 2011 16:06 GMT
#92
Cait is hard because she pushes and traps up the creep so that you can't actually grab the last hit very easily. Standard Cait vs Melee gayness.

I'm not sure what Jiji's cass page is but if it's ManyReason's AP carry page (which coincides with my own - MSPD quints + mpen red + X seals + X blue) then it doesn't really do the job, as you simply take too much damage.

The issue for me, and this may or may not apply to a lot of other people (hate bringing up the bad opponents good opponents statement but I feel like this is the case here, as even a year ago I wrecked bad ranged AD but got wrecked by good ranged AD), but the issue for me is that Kass' harass is simply too little for too long a CD, and so if you want to remain even in farm you need some sort of innate sustain (to melee creep) while relying on quantity of Qs to do your harassing. That's why I've been running all over the place trying to find HP sustain from anything and everything :[
oraoraoraoraoraoraoraora
SHr3DD3r
Profile Joined March 2009
Pakistan2137 Posts
September 19 2011 16:08 GMT
#93
Yea i forgot that he did run Hp5 Quints too.. My bad.


Atleast I don't have to worry about any of them as on EU noone really shifts things around. lololol
Hit them hard! Hit them low! - Forever a Bisu Fan!~!
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11767 Posts
September 19 2011 16:10 GMT
#94
Just to clear things up, I'm perfectly fine with being behind on creep stats. I find that Kassadin's base power is so good that I don't need THAT MUCH farm to have an effect, although obviously it's better if I do have farm.

The issue is more that I hate sitting there with 70 CS when the Cait has 180. That's a game-ending disparity.

By contrast with Bruisers I can remain somewhat even now. If they have 100 I'll usually have like 80, which isn't equal but is "equal enough."
oraoraoraoraoraoraoraora
Two_DoWn
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States13684 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-19 16:12:35
September 19 2011 16:11 GMT
#95
I dunno. When I play kass I make it my goal to just be alive by the time I hit 6. Any cs above 0 is just gravy. Post 6 I feel you can be aggressive because there is NO way anyone should be able to match the consistent burst you can drop on their faces.
"What is the air speed velocity of an unladen courier?" "Dire or Radiant?"
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11767 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-19 16:19:32
September 19 2011 16:16 GMT
#96
Ranged AD just whoop your ass straight-up post-6 if the farm disparity is too big. Is why I always used to say that ranged AD counters Kass, as his damage cycle is too damn slow to keep up with the constant barrage of ranged AD hits :<

I mean obviously right now it's SO RARE that a ranged AD takes a solo lane (lolyay) that this concern is somewhat alleviated, and so I can feel a bit more comfortable taking Kass, but yeah. Also I'd imagine against true sustained bruisers (Irelia) or high powered bruisers (Jarv/Xin) whatever sustain I can maximize is probably for the best.

Edit:
A lot of this paranoia might be coming from him being so razor's edge to me, obviously. It's a bit different with like the Malz and such of the world where I can be like me dying? no prob. I carry anyways huehuehue.

Whereas with Kass it's like AUGHASIFHASUDHASYG
oraoraoraoraoraoraoraora
Juicyfruit
Profile Joined May 2008
Canada5484 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-19 17:03:32
September 19 2011 16:59 GMT
#97
How about hextech revolver? Sounds stupid but it does scale up in terms of regen with blue buff and you get 40AP to play around with so you can truck people harder with your Q's.

Just to do some random math: with 40AP you will be hitting 308 damage Q'd at level 9, which will heal you for 46.2HP at around 7second cooldown with blue buff = around 33 HP/5 yay
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11767 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-19 17:06:35
September 19 2011 17:05 GMT
#98
For the cost though you could get Catalyst, which is better for skirmish/teamfights due to max mana ;; Nyargh, why this hero so tough to fix his weakness ;;

Edit:
Unless you mean open Revolver instead of PStone or whatnot, but........ I dun think you can, lol.
oraoraoraoraoraoraoraora
Daenius
Profile Joined June 2010
United States73 Posts
September 19 2011 21:01 GMT
#99
I just did some testing last night... it seems that Revolver will actually heal when you use your W because apparently the extra magic damage counts as spell damage :O Not sure if it's that worth noting but it may help lane a bit better as every now and then you can activate W to last hit/smack some dude and get some HP back as well?

I still don't think you can rush it though, maybe get it after a Pstone or tear/cata?

btw Uta did you ever get that other smurf account of yours back to silver with 3v3? lol
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11767 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-19 21:28:52
September 19 2011 21:28 GMT
#100
Friend's account? Nope :x

After PStone/Cata I'd honestly be looking toward mid-game items, not sustain. It's really that first one or two items :/
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