EPTAs for Kass with blue buff, don't get me wrong, I love having blue buff with Kassadin (I call it super fun time), but you're kidding yourself if you think he does the MOST with it. Heroes like Malzahar (even if he's not a favored blue buff option) will literally 1v5 poke a tower siege down with blue buff. Heroes like Swain can carry with blue buff and simply die in 3 seconds without. There're some make-or-break heroes and heroes that can perform acts of God with blue buff. For Kassadin all it does is increase the amount of times he can perform his short-to-mid-ranged spells. Great, but not necessarily game-changing. Now if you have no other real option and Kassadin is your AP carry yes, obviously Kassadin needs it more. I've lost a lot of games where a fight broke out while I was saying I needed blue buff and I simply ran out of mana mid-fight and we crumbled.
[Champion] Kassadin - Page 5
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
As for Kass with blue buff, don't get me wrong, I love having blue buff with Kassadin (I call it super fun time), but you're kidding yourself if you think he does the MOST with it. Heroes like Malzahar (even if he's not a favored blue buff option) will literally 1v5 poke a tower siege down with blue buff. Heroes like Swain can carry with blue buff and simply die in 3 seconds without. There're some make-or-break heroes and heroes that can perform acts of God with blue buff. For Kassadin all it does is increase the amount of times he can perform his short-to-mid-ranged spells. Great, but not necessarily game-changing. Now if you have no other real option and Kassadin is your AP carry yes, obviously Kassadin needs it more. I've lost a lot of games where a fight broke out while I was saying I needed blue buff and I simply ran out of mana mid-fight and we crumbled. | ||
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
On September 18 2011 04:18 Southlight wrote: See, I'm not even as extreme. I'm fine with miniguides, as I've done random ones in various threads too. The difference is that mine were 1) Lanemumu (opened some eyes) 2) Cata jungle opening on Amumu (again, opened some eyes) and 3) Jungle Rammus with Wriggles (had some discussion until Loci validated Turkey and I's opinion. Shit that hasn't been done or just isn't in the OP. I also didn't advertise myself when posting something. As for Kass with blue buff, don't get me wrong, I love having blue buff with Kassadin (I call it super fun time), but you're kidding yourself if you think he does the MOST with it. Heroes like Malzahar (even if he's not a favored blue buff option) will literally 1v5 poke a tower siege down with blue buff. Heroes like Swain can carry with blue buff and simply die in 3 seconds without. There're some make-or-break heroes and heroes that can perform acts of God with blue buff. For Kassadin all it does is increase the amount of times he can perform his short-to-mid-ranged spells. Great, but not necessarily game-changing. Now if you have no other real option and Kassadin is your AP carry yes, obviously Kassadin needs it more. I've lost a lot of games where a fight broke out while I was saying I needed blue buff and I simply ran out of mana mid-fight and we crumbled. I agree. Even if you are the n1 candidate for bluebuff, you should not build so you are completely reliant on it. Saying you "should" have bluebuff all the time its up is unrealistic. You die and you lose it, your jungler ganks bottom and theirs steals it, you dont have time to get it, you want to do baron and your solo top is oom... | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14080 Posts
On September 17 2011 17:53 -Trippin- wrote: For the sake of veering this discussion into something constructive (away from our little dick measuring contest), I think that blue buff is more important on Kassadin than almost any other hero in the game. Having the blue buff on Kassadin allows for you to blink around farming everything without fear of running out of mana for an important engagement. This makes Kassadin one of the best farmers in the game (probably the best period) and it allows him to explode out of control if you allow him to keep the blue buff. tl;dr: "I don't care about the argument but blue buff is pretty good on casters." First few pages have been real good. :/ I started slowly "getting" Kassa after like my 10th try, however I have one major question for you: wtf is the difference in playstyle between the Catalyst -> AP and the Tears -> Mejais -> GA build? I mean, the cata won't really change when you explode and when you dont. So, aren't both "Vulture builds"? Also, did you ever play around with WotA? My gut says it should make sense for those long, drawn out fights (which kassa kinda loves). | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
With the latter, you're playing more like a support hero for a while, until you start rolling. The itemization early means that you have no extra survival and no extra damage. It's focused on giving you some mana-based battle sustain and getting gold efficiency out of teamfights, assuming that you ensure your own survival after kills/assists. Edit: Essentially, focus on damage vs focus on perfect CC, early on. WotA probably is nice, though his mass AoE and relatively high CDs might mean his spellvamp isn't as noticeable as you might think. I tend to be high on WotA anyways because it's one of the cheapest 80AP items though. I still would think it's hard to jostle Deathcap/Void out of position as two core damage items no matter what, but if you run like a heavy tanking style (ala original OP) then it probably wouldn't hurt. | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
Running ye olde 34 armor 13 MR (or something like that) runepage with 21 defense for SoS AND Nimble (and 9 util) with a Cloth +5pot opening allows him to deal with bruisers. Against non-jumpers like Udyr you can open Regrowth+pot and if you play it perfectly you can actually yack his HP quite a bit. Whenever he goes for you if he has Tiger you can either kite him or just fight back with W. Pretty funky. No amount of rune/mastery yackity made me prevent a crushing defeat to lame ranged AD heroes like Caitlyn. Fortunately for whatever reason you don't see this in solo lane as much, but worth noting. Probably another cloth+5 pot matchup. Not notable, but I suppose worth mentioning that the flat 34(ish) MR page seemed redundant, as i didn't really feel a difference. I've been racking my mind on how to come up with a more HP-sustainable opening, as I honestly feel that Cata is too weak now (especially without being able to stack it anymore), and PStone is nice but doesn't seem like "enough." Enough that I pondered opening Wriggles, lol. If anyone has a better idea I'm all ears. | ||
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SHr3DD3r
Pakistan2137 Posts
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
For items I just went cata, tear, sorcs, cap, bv, void (I cant remember if i built a ROA with the first cata, im pretty sure I at least thought about it fairly hard). Laning post 6 essentially came down to fighting and killing my lane opponent, being at too low health to really farm all that much safely, going back, and repeating the process. Worked well enough since I ended up 11-0-13 and could beast them all, only I didnt really need to cuz Shitcombo's power cho was doing that already. | ||
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spinesheath
Germany8679 Posts
The solution to the HP sustain issue is obviously to get Cata + Philo. Before you consider getting Wriggle's on Kass, you really should just stock up on potions more generously. Assuming you already have the cloth and we consider a duration of 15 minutes for the wards (=5 wards), then Wriggle's needs to compete with 26 potions. Potions win. | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
Since Kassadin does really well with teleport the sustain issue goes away a little but pretty much always going to be behind on creepscore unless you straight up win the lane. | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
full hp5 seals only gives like 3.87 hp per 5, which on conjunction with DShield is 11.87 (or 12). Regrowth is 15. Interesting thought though is that HP5 Seals + Quints is 11.97, which is what Shitcombo told me he runs on certain heroes. Certainly food for thought with regrowth (for a total of +26 hp5 at level 1 on) and like a Cloth opening to shore up armor. The problem is that I feel that HP Regen is great against AP heroes but not so much against bruisers and ranged AD, both of whom can hammer you with impunity. Not sure, would need to test. @TD The post-starting items don't matter to me. It's honestly the first 10-15 minutes that bothers me. It's impossible to keep up with a Cait for instance, especially one who just fires ult at you on CD. Her traps + ult hurt your CS so much that you end up with like 1/3 her CS which is terrible. Edit: On September 20 2011 00:46 spinesheath wrote: I would get Dodge seals if you go for nimbleness and also have a lot of armor on marks/quints/masteries/cloth. The solution to the HP sustain issue is obviously to get Cata + Philo. Before you consider getting Wriggle's on Kass, you really should just stock up on potions more generously. Assuming you already have the cloth and we consider a duration of 15 minutes for the wards (=5 wards), then Wriggle's needs to compete with 26 potions. Potions win. Yeah going to switch around runeset to have dodge 'cause I'm running Nimble. Edit2: On September 20 2011 00:46 Juicyfruit wrote: I personally think going more offensive build is more useful than straight up trying to tank since for the most part you just can't outtank the harass and you are still going to get pushed regardless so might as make them scared of a jungle gank with constant Q balls to the face but w/e. Since Kassadin does really well with teleport the sustain issue goes away a little but pretty much always going to be behind on creepscore unless you straight up win the lane. I used to run straight offense with MPen quints and everything to just try to hammer them, the problem is that ranged AD (and bruisers) hit a certain point where their sustain and max HP is simply better than Kass' Q cooldown. Culminating in this exchange with Turkey: [9/18/2011 11:20:50 PM] nightseternal: i honestly think [9/18/2011 11:20:53 PM] nightseternal: they need to lower cd on q :/ [9/18/2011 11:22:21 PM] stuffed_turkey: like 1 second off CD and 10 less mana all levels [9/18/2011 11:22:23 PM] stuffed_turkey: imo Edit3: Also for the record I already do run PStone -> Cata, and I spam potions up the arse. The problem is that he falls behind SO BADLY in CS against ranged AD. He tends to struggle vs bruisers too (hence why I say he gets shit on by 2/3 the heroes in the game) but the Cloth+5 with defensive runes and masteries offsets, so that he's still behind but he can still 'get his farm' relative to opponents. So that's slightly less an issue. Ranged AD is just absolutely brutal, primarily Cait and MF, although good Trists tend to fuck him up as well. This is really "the last bastion" for me, as I'm a bit more open to playing Kass now that I can at least hang with bruisers, and the primary counterpick in lane got nerfed (Mord). | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
Cait is hard cuz she hits like a truck and has super range. If i had to play against her i'd grab that supermovespeed page and just try to zoom around and minimize the amount of autos im taking pre 6, then just try to kill her post 6. | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
I'm not sure what Jiji's cass page is but if it's ManyReason's AP carry page (which coincides with my own - MSPD quints + mpen red + X seals + X blue) then it doesn't really do the job, as you simply take too much damage. The issue for me, and this may or may not apply to a lot of other people (hate bringing up the bad opponents good opponents statement but I feel like this is the case here, as even a year ago I wrecked bad ranged AD but got wrecked by good ranged AD), but the issue for me is that Kass' harass is simply too little for too long a CD, and so if you want to remain even in farm you need some sort of innate sustain (to melee creep) while relying on quantity of Qs to do your harassing. That's why I've been running all over the place trying to find HP sustain from anything and everything :[ | ||
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SHr3DD3r
Pakistan2137 Posts
Atleast I don't have to worry about any of them as on EU noone really shifts things around. lololol | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
The issue is more that I hate sitting there with 70 CS when the Cait has 180. That's a game-ending disparity. By contrast with Bruisers I can remain somewhat even now. If they have 100 I'll usually have like 80, which isn't equal but is "equal enough." | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
I mean obviously right now it's SO RARE that a ranged AD takes a solo lane (lolyay) that this concern is somewhat alleviated, and so I can feel a bit more comfortable taking Kass, but yeah. Also I'd imagine against true sustained bruisers (Irelia) or high powered bruisers (Jarv/Xin) whatever sustain I can maximize is probably for the best. Edit: A lot of this paranoia might be coming from him being so razor's edge to me, obviously. It's a bit different with like the Malz and such of the world where I can be like me dying? no prob. I carry anyways huehuehue. Whereas with Kass it's like AUGHASIFHASUDHASYG | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
Just to do some random math: with 40AP you will be hitting 308 damage Q'd at level 9, which will heal you for 46.2HP at around 7second cooldown with blue buff = around 33 HP/5 yay | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
Edit: Unless you mean open Revolver instead of PStone or whatnot, but........ I dun think you can, lol. | ||
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Daenius
United States73 Posts
I still don't think you can rush it though, maybe get it after a Pstone or tear/cata? btw Uta did you ever get that other smurf account of yours back to silver with 3v3? lol | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
After PStone/Cata I'd honestly be looking toward mid-game items, not sustain. It's really that first one or two items :/ | ||
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