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Ok, so. This is why you want to maintain a balanced level of Armor, MRes and Health.
First graph shows the efficiency of spending gold on Health items vs. spending gold on Armor items, in terms of boosting your Effective Health (EHP):
+ Show Spoiler +
As you can see, the more Armor you have, the greater the efficiency of buying Health relative to Armor, for a given value of Health.
+ Show Spoiler +
This second graph is much like the previous one, but with a higher Health value. The efficiency of buying Health instead of Armor is lower for all armor values, but it still increases as you add more armor.
Next, graphs showing the opposite situation- the Armor value is a given, and we see how efficient it is to spend gold on Armor items in terms of boosting EHP, compared to spending gold on Health items:
+ Show Spoiler +
As expected, the more Health you have, the more efficient additional Armor is relative to additional Health.
+ Show Spoiler +
Same graph as above, but with a higher static Armor value which means lower efficiency for gold on Armor compared to gold on Health, for all Health values.
Obviously, all the above analysis also applies to Health vs. MRes. As long as the efficiency of buying Health instead of Armor is greater than 1, you want to buy Health; as long as the efficiency of buying Health instead of Armor is lower than 1, you want to spend your money on Armor to maximize your EHP vs. Physical damage.
Now, I'm gonna assume you care about EHP vs. physical damage as much as EHP vs. magical damage, that you have 300 Armor and MRes (150 of each + DBC on), and that your enemies have Void Staff / Last Whisper as appropriate. This is the efficiency comparison:
+ Show Spoiler +
This graph shows the efficiency of spending your gold on Health vs. splitting it 50/50 on Armor and MRes- in this kinda situation, you can see how buying Health items is super efficient which means Warmog's is jawesome.
TL;DR: Warmog's is an amazing endgame item especially on someone with Armor / MRes steroids like Rammus, and also especially vs. opponents with Last Whisper / Void Staff where appropriate. I wouldn't get it early on in the game, despite the stacks on its health and health regen from kills.
Gold efficiency uses the cost and bonus values of Cloth Armor and Ruby Crystal as baseline.
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Watching HSGG's stream... AP Rammus anyone? 1:1 AP ratio on Q, .3 ratio on R (over 8 seconds duration) and there still seems to be a (now hidden) AP ratio on his W as well..?
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On May 23 2011 07:08 Shawngood wrote:
Watching HSGG's stream... AP Rammus anyone? 1:1 AP ratio on Q, .3 ratio on R (over 8 seconds duration) and there still seems to be a (now hidden) AP ratio on his W as well..?
Well, I can confirm that there is indeed a hidden .25 AP ratio on the damage return component of Rammus' DBC, which doesn't show on the tooltip.
As to the effectiveness of an AP Rammus build, I haven't actually tried it in a game against human opponents, but I don't have very high expectations of it.
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On May 23 2011 10:16 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2011 07:08 Shawngood wrote:
Watching HSGG's stream... AP Rammus anyone? 1:1 AP ratio on Q, .3 ratio on R (over 8 seconds duration) and there still seems to be a (now hidden) AP ratio on his W as well..? Well, I can confirm that there is indeed a hidden .25 AP ratio on the damage return component of Rammus' DBC, which doesn't show on the tooltip. As to the effectiveness of an AP Rammus build, I haven't actually tried it in a game against human opponents, but I don't have very high expectations of it.
I haven't done AP rammus recently but it used to be one of my fun trolls that had deceptively higher damage than people expected
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Jungle Rammus:
Smite + Flash, 1/21/8 (exp mastery), armor runes.
Cloth +5 pots + DBC, Golem -> level 2 PBall gank if top is gankable (slows you by ~20 seconds), can catch some ppl off and force a flash and the quick damage can lead to a fucked up lane, but again it slows you so risky. Only do if it's a guaranteed dividend.
Pball + DBC wolf.
Gank mid.
Rest of the route remains fairly standard, although he can clear red buff as well without losing too much hp. Gank bot if desired, else buy razor and go back to jungle + ganking.
Razor -> Wriggles -> Boots -> Abyssal -> stack HP somehow
Depending on their comp you can sneak in a HoG before Abyssal and so you'll have a belated but decent g10.
The wriggles is critical for maintaining jungle speed, and also gives you hilariously high base AD without DBC.
R>Q=E>W; level Q and E as needed - higher Q = stronger instant stun and faster jungle, W is a stronger disable but is only useful for ganks.
His biggest issue is mana management; if your team has a solid blue buff hero it may be worth investing in a Chalice just for the extra MR. With Wriggles mana becomes his only real concern...
Good items include Wriggles (core), Abyssal (core), Banshee, Thornmail, Guardian Angel, Rylai's, Hourglass, Warmog. Funfire is okay but not gold-efficient.
Edit:
He's a good example of a jungler that Riot hates, by the way. You can dick around and gank mid like 3 times at level 2 and still clear as fast as a Warwick.
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On July 21 2011 04:22 Southlight wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Jungle Rammus:
Smite + Flash, 1/21/8 (exp mastery), armor runes.
Cloth +5 pots + DBC, Golem -> level 2 PBall gank if top is gankable (slows you by ~20 seconds), can catch some ppl off and force a flash and the quick damage can lead to a fucked up lane, but again it slows you so risky. Only do if it's a guaranteed dividend.
Pball + DBC wolf.
Gank mid.
Rest of the route remains fairly standard, although he can clear red buff as well without losing too much hp. Gank bot if desired, else buy razor and go back to jungle + ganking.
Razor -> Wriggles -> Boots -> Abyssal -> stack HP somehow
Depending on their comp you can sneak in a HoG before Abyssal and so you'll have a belated but decent g10.
The wriggles is critical for maintaining jungle speed, and also gives you hilariously high base AD without DBC.
R>Q=W>E; level Q and W as needed - higher Q = stronger instant stun and faster jungle, W is a stronger disable but is only useful for ganks.
His biggest issue is mana management; if your team has a solid blue buff hero it may be worth investing in a Chalice just for the extra MR. With Wriggles mana becomes his only real concern...
Good items include Wriggles (core), Abyssal (core), Banshee, Thornmail, Guardian Angel, Rylai's, Hourglass, Warmog. Funfire is okay but not gold-efficient.
Edit:
He's a good example of a jungler that Riot hates, by the way. You can dick around and gank mid like 3 times at level 2 and still clear as fast as a Warwick.
I have a few problems with this guide:
*I feel that levelling Taunt last is really crippling for your ganking and teamfight capabilities, and I don't see a very good tradeoff in having more damage for your Powerball in exchange for that.
*I don't like Wriggle's on Rammus. Right now, because EXP and gold from minions increases as time goes on, but exp and gold from jungle monsters doesn't, there's a point in the game beyond which all the small jungle camps (small golems, wolves and wraiths) become super-low priority, and aren't worth doing unless there's literally nothing else to do. At that point, Wriggle's feels like a pretty bad item for Rammus because the AD and Lifesteal are wasted stats vs. champions, and the proc isn't as useful for Rammus (who relies significantly on spell damage to clear the jungle) as it is for champions who get more attack speed (from attack speed items, Hunter's Call, Tiger Stance, Battle Cry or Lee Sin's passive).
Still, you DO fall behind significantly in jungling speed later on if you have no damage items at all (which is one of the reasons why I'm such a strong proponent of Sunfire on Rammus), so I guess Wriggle's is acceptable if you don't have any other items to help you with clearing the jungle.
*Spending your first 4600g on items without any Health is problematic for a tank who gets tons of free armor and MRes but has pretty bad Health/level growth.
*If you hit Q -> R and manage to hit all 8 damage waves from Tremors, your "spell combo" has a total AP ratio of 3.4 over 8 seconds. To equate the damage a Sunfire would deal in those 8 seconds (280), you'd need 82 AP, roughly 1600g, where the upgrade cost of a Sunfire is only 800g (and provides the damage always, not just when hitting things with Powerball + Tremors); the tanking stats pay for themselves. If you like other items instead of Sunfire that's fine, but calling it "not gold-efficient" when you're getting damage from far more inefficient sources (AP) is misleading.
I have no idea what kind of playstyle you have with Rammus, but I swear that if a new user had posted this Rammus build, I'd have called him a troll.
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800 gold for a PBAoE stat is not gold efficient unless you're buying it for the damage. This is especially if you run the armor page + wriggles, as you're essentially buying Giant's Belt for 2500 gold.
Red buff Rammus just hits people to death, with Wriggles he ends up with something like 150AD without DBC bonus, which is higher than the majority of champs at that stage in the game. He literally just hits people down 1v1. For all intents and purposes his farming "post-jungle-phase" (if you wanna call it that) is terrible too, because it's hard to get whole creep waves to attack you, so you either have to aa them to death after PBall, or Tremors them, which despite its low cooldown isn't ideal. Wriggles speeds shit up. It's also good for sneaking in a neutral camp kill, and is also good for dragoning and to an extent baron.
Most people won't let you use DBC in a timely fashion if you initiate using Q, because of its nasty cast time. Oftentimes people will abuse it and simply chainlock you upon Q->E (or even just after Q), causing you to get hammered pre-DBC. To that end I find DBC highly overrated in a teamfight for some time, and is why I always shore up my base defenses first. With armor runes and Wriggles you hit over 130 base armor really easily. With Treads and Abyssal you also hit over 130 MR. This leaves you at a base of 130/130ish without DBC and all you have to do is find a way to get HP after that, which is relatively easy. As a bonus, Abyssal is an awesome item, especially on Rammus.
If you get Thornmail then your AD rockets up to around 190. You can very easily and comfortably literally just hit people to death, especially if people decide to ignore you because you're a "tank."
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Wriggles on Rammus? People actually do that now? Or just you Southlight?
I always liked Wriggles -> Zeal Rammus best (followed by whatever, typically tanky stuff). It's awesome.
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It's me, but Turkey and I are in agreement that Jammus should be doing it in general.
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I actually get razor and eventually turn it into mbr... o.o
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On July 21 2011 05:41 Southlight wrote:
800 gold for a PBAoE stat is not gold efficient unless you're buying it for the damage. (...) As a bonus, Abyssal is an awesome item, especially on Rammus.
Yes, the damage aura on Sunfire is one of the reasons why I like the item on Rammus. It is, as I said, more efficient for buying damage on Rammus than getting AP from items, both for teamfights and (especially) for farming.
Also, while Rammus can indeed autoattack people to death if they let him (in a teamfight)/can't stop him from doing it (in a gank), losing out on a big chunk of Rammus' teamfight utility (3 second CC) throughout midgame is still pretty crippling to the champion, IMO.
Linking to your build on the OP.
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So, I've been trying out a gold/10 item rush on Rammus, like our new resident banling suggested; it's now part of the OP, under the red title "How to build Gold/10 items on Rammus". I have nowhere near as much experience with the build as I do with the "classical" Cloth Armor +5 pots build, but I'll test it more over the coming days and let you know my findings (and likely clean up the OP into something more elegant, I just added in a chunk of new text without editing anything else).
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Philo Stone is ridiculously good on Jungle Rammus whether you are rushing it or wait until after boots. I've been running 1/12/17 with an Armor Quint/Mark/Seal MR Glyph page, and both health and mana cease to be issues the moment it's finished.
I tried it because I thought, "Hey, Leona rushes Philo + Hog since her farm sucks and Eclipse makes her invincible, wonder if that would work on Rammus." It's shockingly good.
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I just do the standard rejuv + 1 pot clear, and get philo hog boots. Sort of varies from there -- I like Aegis as a good 4th item.
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I just realized that I mixed up W and E, didn't I. I meant Ball and Taunt are equal, and that DBC is the most useless of his skills >_>
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I just played the best 2 games of my short time of LoL with Rammus and I was able to go 35-2-37. He is quickly becoming my favorite hero to use.
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Just adding this real quick since the thread just got bumped anyway:
LoCicero said a few days ago on stream that rammus is completely fine, IF people build wriggles on him. +1 for Southlights build. =P
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LoCicero said a few days ago on stream that rammus is completely fine
By fine he means that he is viable in high elo ?
As i can't understand why ppl considere him meh .... he jungles well and secures gank kills like a boss with q + flash + E
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Rammus is weak. He relys on people underestimating his ganks and getting kills early. He jungles slow after the first clear and has trouble farming fast and if he gets set back he's generally useless because he can't really tank that well and he doesn't have that good CC.
If you have a decent tanky dps solo top like standard example irelia rammus is just a terrible pick.
He's way worse in teamfights that amumu. Amumus Q is like a flash and rammus' Q is like a ghost. Except amumu has more damage and better cc. He also farms faster even though he's a little less naturally tanky.
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His jungle's pretty fast once you get razor/wriggles. The very threat of his gank is good because (although it got nerfed) it's still hard to escape him when he's rolling him even with ward coverage. His CC isn't great but he outputs ridiculous damage for a hero that hard to kill.
Rammus' ult does as much as Fiddle's ult if you keep people in it. That's on top of base damage that reaches ~200 fairly easily, + DCB on taunt damage. He hammers people.
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