EPT[Champion] Rammus - Page 7
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
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Craton
United States17250 Posts
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
Not only has the jungler metagame shifted, but the tank meta has changed as well. Put simply, tanks that deal no damage scale really badly into the lategame; you don't want to be a Leona, you want to be more like a Cho'gath or Singed who is tough and has CC, but also contributes with damage. You lose some survivability from buying damage or hybrid items instead of building pure tank, but you'll gain more gold by virtue of being able to kill things faster so you'll be able to buy more stuff anyway; and besides, in teamfights it is preferable to be pretty tanky but still a threat, versus being really tanky but much easier to ignore. Suffice to say, my "Sunfire into pure tanky" Rammus build is obsolete (not even I build Rammus like that anymore), and I'll take the time to apologize to Utahime since the start of any Rammus build now should be a Wriggle's Lantern, as he said it was several months ago. I haven't updated the OP yet, because I'd like feedback on how you guys think Rammus should be built before I do that. Right now, I'm partial to physical DPS items in the form of Atma's + either Frozen Mallet or Warmog's, an MR item (Banshee's or FoN, although I'll admit I haven't given Abyssal Scepter much of a chance), and I'm not sure about a sixth item... Thornmail? Phantom Dancer? Warmog's, if you got a FM earlier on? Please do share your thoughts and reasoning  | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
I get PD in there, I understand southlight likes abyssal, it all works. I don't like rammus as an initiator. Building him classically with full tank lets him do it slightly better but even still he gets poked and has weak initiate. I like him more in general fights say at dragon or whatever when you can just run up to an AP or AD and taunt+W+R and own them really hard. Atmog+PD rammus can crush an AD carry in 3 seconds with ulti up and they can't get away without a lot of help from the team because of the PD movement speed and powerball combined. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On October 14 2011 21:59 Slayer91 wrote: I've just been playing rammus like a bruiser. Wriggles, Mercs, heart of gold optional, warmogs, atmogs. I get PD in there, I understand southlight likes abyssal, it all works. I don't like rammus as an initiator. Building him classically with full tank lets him do it slightly better but even still he gets poked and has weak initiate. I like him more in general fights say at dragon or whatever when you can just run up to an AP or AD and taunt+W+R and own them really hard. Atmog+PD rammus can crush an AD carry in 3 seconds with ulti up and they can't get away without a lot of help from the team because of the PD movement speed and powerball combined. Sunfire is a pretty bad item. Damage wise attack speed//crit works a lot better if you can stay in range a long time. For farming jungle wriggles works better. If you want the giants belt make it a warmogs, convert the chain mail to atmas later. Rammus doesn't need the resistance stats that much though because of W. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
I disagree that Sunfire Cape is a bad item. It's not amazing, but it's certainly decent. My reasoning:
I'm not arguing that Sunfire is a better choice than Warmog's. That's a fairly subjective and difficult argument, and in many circumstances just outright wrong (I mean, 1.4k health from a single item, do want). However, I am arguing that Sunfire cape is at least decent. | ||
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Craton
United States17250 Posts
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
Phantom dancer is nice but it's truly an item that compliments atmogs and not very good on its own, as the movespeed alone means you are buying it to sustain your mobility throughout a whole teamfight whereas wit's end rammus, when you get it at least, fucks things up really fast at the start of a teamfight. Pretty much no one wants to be focusing DBC rammus, so that's 6 seconds of being either ignored or soaking up way more damage than the other team can afford to pump on you. Sunfire is just kind of silly these days, l0l. I don't even like the stats, but it forces turret aggro on you when you don't want it, which is annoying in itself. | ||
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On October 15 2011 00:42 Craton wrote: Sunfire is still one of the best items on Rammus hands down. Calling it bad is just ignorant. Sunfire gives a very immediate return on investment in terms of effectiveness, but scales badly into lategame. On the other hand, Atmog's takes very long to finish and in that long "transition" phase you'll be weaker than you would be if you'd bought other items (such as a Sunfire), but scales well into the lategame. Still, if I have to choose between losing some midgame power or being complete deadweight lategame, I'd rather suffer the Atmog's transition most of the time. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On October 15 2011 00:41 Seuss wrote: I think you hit quote instead of edit. I disagree that Sunfire Cape is a bad item. It's not amazing, but it's certainly decent. My reasoning:
I'm not arguing that Sunfire is a better choice than Warmog's. That's a fairly subjective and difficult argument, and in many circumstances just outright wrong (I mean, 1.4k health from a single item, do want). However, I am arguing that Sunfire cape is at least decent. Atmas provides like 60 damage just from the 2% not to mention the crit. It scales better with any other items because of the crit. Also, warmogs is cost effective for the health it gives with 0 charges, its vastly better than sunfire when stacked. You're providing lots of points but it boils down to: Warmogs MUCH better with W up and still better with W down. Sunfire is like giants belt+chain mail+aoe damage where the AOE damage is very poor IMO. I find it hard to believe sunfire is one of the best items on rammus that builds wriggles. It's amazing to farm jungle but I find an extra expensive and not very well scaling giants belt+chain vest hard to justify, especially when really I don't want anything but health for defense on rammus. A bit more is good but unnecessary. Again, this is a bruiser style of rammus that dislikes initaiting except to catch people in a bad position, so damage taken in powerball should be very minimal and you activate your W as soon as you expect to take heavy damage and not before that. If you really like sunfire in a wriggles build why not build giants belt and chain mail and just convert giants belt to warmogs later? People overrated the importance of getting it fast. It's cost effective without stacks. Just get it whenever you want, faster is better but its not necessarily bad to get it later. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
I think Zato-1 summarized it nicely, though I don't think picking Sunfire means you'll be dead weight late game. Not as effective perhaps, but not worthless. For reference, I initiate even in a bruiser style. Rammus is so ridiculously tanky with W whatever you build that there's no reason not to powerball/flash/taunt/ult/DBC into the middle of their team unless you're facing some crazy Cho + Olaf + Vayne team. And again, I'm not saying Sunfire is the best option in all circumstances or even most, just that it's a viable option and not "bad". I use Warmog's very often myself. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On October 15 2011 03:23 Ryuu314 wrote: Wat jungle route do u guys use? That's the basic route. You can also do Wolves/Wraiths/Golems first, or just do Golems -> Level 2 gank etc. You don't actually need full/near-full armor runes to jungle, it's just faster/more fun that way. On October 15 2011 03:25 Slayer91 wrote: The problem with initaiting is simply getting blocked by a chogath or galio or amumu or something and your team is too scared to go past them and the whole thing ends up being a mess since your initiate is too weak to justify your team taking a full galio ult to the face. So you just collided with and slowed/BVeil popped their initiation, and the enemy squishies have to choose between attacking Rammus or getting in range of Rammus to do anything. The only problem I see here is that your team is scared. | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
If he can manage to circumvent the tank line then yeah rammus can 1v2 the enemy carry + support pretty damn long and do quite a bit of damage to boot. | ||
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Attakijing
United States693 Posts
On October 15 2011 03:25 Slayer91 wrote: yeah this is true. playing rammus is more like playing an assassin. but that just means that when you show up to countergank they blew their CC and everything goes in your favor.The problem with initaiting is simply getting blocked by a chogath or galio or amumu or something and your team is too scared to go past them and the whole thing ends up being a mess since your initiate is too weak to justify your team taking a full galio ult to the face. On October 15 2011 03:45 Seuss wrote: this is a good point in theory but in practice i always find that when the enemy team sees a rammus coming in they are conditioned to freak the hell out and throw everything at him. you cant really get the jump on people unless you initiate with flash-powerball--which i think is a very underrated and awesome initiate. flash powerball gives you time to switch to W (as well as use E and R). W makes you a lot tankier, and then you actually want everyone to freak out and throw everything at you. when you slowly roll in and get stunned their AP carry gets all excited because he can do his full combo on you. then because you dont have DBC up and you built armor like an idiot you die instantly. in my experience.+ Show Spoiler + That's the basic route. You can also do Wolves/Wraiths/Golems first, or just do Golems -> Level 2 gank etc. You don't actually need full/near-full armor runes to jungle, it's just faster/more fun that way. So you just collided with and slowed/BVeil popped their initiation, and the enemy squishies have to choose between attacking Rammus or getting in range of Rammus to do anything. The only problem I see here is that your team is scared. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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intotheheart
Canada33091 Posts
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On October 15 2011 02:58 Slayer91 wrote: Atmas provides like 60 damage just from the 2% not to mention the crit. It scales better with any other items because of the crit. Also, warmogs is cost effective for the health it gives with 0 charges, its vastly better than sunfire when stacked. You're providing lots of points but it boils down to: Warmogs MUCH better with W up and still better with W down. Sunfire is like giants belt+chain mail+aoe damage where the AOE damage is very poor IMO. I find it hard to believe sunfire is one of the best items on rammus that builds wriggles. It's amazing to farm jungle but I find an extra expensive and not very well scaling giants belt+chain vest hard to justify, especially when really I don't want anything but health for defense on rammus. A bit more is good but unnecessary. Again, this is a bruiser style of rammus that dislikes initaiting except to catch people in a bad position, so damage taken in powerball should be very minimal and you activate your W as soon as you expect to take heavy damage and not before that. If you really like sunfire in a wriggles build why not build giants belt and chain mail and just convert giants belt to warmogs later? People overrated the importance of getting it fast. It's cost effective without stacks. Just get it whenever you want, faster is better but its not necessarily bad to get it later. Yeah... If you like sunfire for its HP and armor stats, why not just build the giant belt and the chainmail... and instead of paying 800g for a shitty 35DPS magic damage aura (which will do shit to champs because of enemy MR), build them into warmogs and atmas later, respectively? | ||
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