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[Champion] Rammus

Forum Index > LoL Strategy
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Zato-1
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Chile4253 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-09 14:07:13
November 22 2010 12:05 GMT
#1
NOTE: This guide is for playing Rammus on Summoner's Rift. I have no interest in writing anything for him on Dominion.

Role:
As the metagame shifts, pure tanks have mostly been phased out by tanky DPS, and Rammus is no exception. Currently, Rammus is best played as a tanky DPS champion, who takes advantage of the large AD bonus from his Passive, the natural toughness of Defensive Ball Curl, and his powerful CC suite in order to display a powerful teamfight presence.

[image loading]

+ Show Spoiler [Patch Notes] +

+ Show Spoiler [Pre-Season One] +
v1.0.0.52
Base health increased to 420 from 400.
Health per level increased to 86 from 76.
Tremors damage increased to 65/130/195 from 55/110/165.

v1.0.0.61
Fixed an issue that would cause Tremors to be removed by Black Shield and Cleanse.

v1.0.0.81
Puncturing Taunt now displays the "Taunted!" pop up text for enemies.

v1.0.0.82
Fixed a bug in which Rammus' movement speed was slightly too slow during Defensive Ball Curl and Powerball.
Tweaked autoattack animation timing.
Powerball sound now ramps up in pitch to match his increased speed.

v1.0.0.83
Base mana regen increased to 0.75 from 0.5.
Powerball mana cost reduced to 80/90/100/110/120 from 90/100/110/120/130.
Puncturing Taunt mana cost reduced to 50/65/80/95/110 from 50/70/90/110/130.

v1.0.0.86
Attack range increased to 125 from 100.
Mana regeneration per level increased to 0.06 from 0.05.
Powerball cooldown reduced to 11 from 12.
Defensive Ball Curl cooldown reduced to 15 from 18.
Defensive Ball Curl mana cost changed to 50 at all ranks from 40/50/60/70/80.
Tremors mana cost changed to 120 at all ranks from 100/150/200.

v1.0.0.87
Fixed a bug where Powerball could occasionally deal double damage.

+ Show Spoiler [Season One] +
v1.0.0.100
Fixed a bug causing the Powerball sound to continue after Rammus hit his target.
Fixed timing issues with basic attacks.

v1.0.0.101
Defensive Ball Curl can now be cancelled.

v1.0.0.103
Movement speed increased to 310 from 305.
Base mana regeneration per 5 seconds increased to 4.5 from 3.75.
Powerball cooldown reduced to 10 from 11.
Defensive Ball Curl damage return now scales on 10% of his total armor.
Defensive Ball Curl Cooldown reduced to 14 from 15.
Puncturing Taunt mana cost reduced to 50/60/70/80/90 from 50/65/80/95/110.
Puncturing Taunt: Fixed several bugs with it to make it more responsive.

v1.0.0.104
Defensive Ball Curl base damage return reduced to 22/28/34/40/46 from 26/32/38/44/50.
Defensive Ball Curl: Fixed a bug where the tooltip was not displaying the proper bonus damage return.

v1.0.0.105
Fixed a bug with Puncturing Taunt where the taunt particle sometimes played on targets that blocked the taunt.

v1.0.0.110
Powerball slow reduced to 20/25/30/35/40% from 28/36/44/52/60%.
Powerball slow duration reduced to 3 seconds from 4.
Puncturing Taunt cooldown increased to 12 from 9.

v1.0.0.111
Powerball speed reduced by about 15%.

v1.0.0.120
Fixed a bug where Defensive Ball Curl Defensive Ball Curl had an ability power ratio.

v1.0.0.125
Attack damage per level increased to 3.5 from 2.75
Rammus can now immediately switch between Defensive Ball Curl and Powerball.
Defensive Ball Curl magic damage return changed to 20/30/40/50/60 from 22/26/32/38/46.
Defensive Ball Curl cast time removed.
Defensive Ball Curl now correctly displays the armor amount in the tooltip when active.

+ Show Spoiler [Stats] +
Health ............. 420 (+86)
Mana .............. 255 (+33)
Damage .......... 55.32 (+3.5)
Attack Speed .. 0.625 (+2.22%)
Range ............ 125
Health Regen .. 5.0 (+0.55)
Mana Regen .... 4.5 (+0.3)
Armor ............. 21 (+3.8)
Magic Res ....... 30 (+0)
Mov. Speed ...... 310


Rammus is best played as a jungler. The facts that he has no ranged abilities with which to harass in the laning phase, no natural forms of sustenance, no useful gap closer and no burst damage until he has his taunt leveled up and his ultimate, make him quite possibly THE weakest laning champion in the game. On the other hand, Rammus is one of the fastest junglers around thanks to Defensive Ball Curl (which helps him clear out jungle camps quickly) and Powerball (which gets him from camp to camp quickly and also deals some significant damage), and makes for one of the most effective gankers due to his mobility and great crowd control.

As with any champion, you should play to Rammus' strengths whenever possible. Knowing when to be decisive and initiate is an invaluable skill on the armordillo; it's hard for his victims to escape his CC train, as it is hard to escape when he's pursuing you. Rammus doesn't take well to the turret-supported harassment and poking playstyle. His burst damage consists of Powerball, Puncturing Taunt (armor reduction, forces target to attack Rammus), Defensive Ball Curl and Tremors- coupled with the fact that you're crowd-controlling your target and autoattacking, this is quite deadly vs. squishies.


[image loading]

Akinator knows what makes for a great LoL champion


Masteries:
I like to use a 0/13/17 build, picking up 2/3 Strength of Spirit, Defensive Mastery and Harden Skin from Defense and Awareness, Greed, 2/3 Meditation, Utility Mastery, Quickness and Blink of an Eye from Utility.

Runes:
I like to take Flat Armor Quints, Mana5/level Seals, MRes/level Glyphs and AS Marks.

Some people like to take ArPen Marks. They are strictly worse than AS marks. Best case scenario (opponent has armor 15), they provide equal DPS to AS marks; realistically, they will typically add less DPS (run the numbers yourself if you don't believe me), and these don't help you proc Madred's Razor / Wriggle's Lantern more often.

Summoner spells:
Smite + Flash. There's really nothing more to say here.

Skills:
WQQE then R>E>W>Q

Taking Q at level 3 is because it boosts your jungle speed more than W and allows for stronger ganks (50 more damage is significant).

Defensive Ball Curl is great for jungling, as is Powerball. As you start looking around the map for ganking opportunities, however, Puncturing Taunt will be your best friend and you'll want to max it out first. Defensive Ball Curl is critical to your being tanky, so you'll want to get that before maxing out Powerball.

Items:
[image loading]
[image loading]

Cloth Armor + 5 health pots to start off with. You can start with a Vamp Scepter if you take 21 points in offense, thus saving gold on potions- but your jungle will be riskier, it will not be faster, and your ganking opportunities will suffer greatly during the first 6 minutes.

Typically you will clear all your jungle camps once, then portal back home for boots1, a Sight Ward and 3 health potions.

"Standard" item build:
[image loading] [image loading] [image loading] [image loading] [image loading]

Replacing your Wriggle's Lantern:
[image loading]

Adding an endgame DPS item, or an endgame tanky item:
[image loading] or [image loading] (yes, another one)

--

Other items:
[image loading]

Sunfire Cape brings earth-shaking midgame power if you choose to buy it. You get a large chunk of health to complement Defensive Ball Curl, Armor in case you want to towerdive someone, and a pretty massive amount of damage (for this point in the game) for a such a tanky and affordable item. The downside? Sunfire Cape is an evolutionary dead end; as far as defensive stats go, it is very inefficient (you barely get anything over the base Giant's Belt + Chain Vest you need to build it), and offensively it falls behind pretty heavily as the MRes and Health scores of your enemies go up. If you're expecting a lot of midgame teamfights, Sunfire Cape is very good; if you're expecting passive play (which is sadly the norm), don't get it.

[image loading]
You could get Frozen Mallet instead of Warmog's after your Wriggle's. Frozen Mallet + Atma's is also a strong combination, with the obvious added bonus of the slow proc compared to Atmog's. If you do choose to get a Frozen Mallet instead of Warmog's, I recommend going for a Warmog's anyway later on if the game gets that far, as having nothing but a Frozen Mallet as a source for health is insufficient for endgame.

Some Rammus players like gold/10 items on him (Philo Stone + HoG), some are advocates of Randuin's Omen, you could choose a Stark's Fervor to boost your team instead of a Phantom Dancer, or an Aegis of the Legion. Other Rammus players like to build AP on him, but that's pretty much only a troll build.

Final Comments
You should practice and be comfortable with different jungling routes; you can just as well start at small golems, then move on to wraiths then wolves then ancient golem on Rammus. If clearing the Ancient Golem camp doesn't seem safe, start elsewhere!

Call your ganks! If you're going to go gank a lane, type it in chat; if you've started your Powerball, ping your target.


Other Guides:
An "ok" guide by Chaox: OUTDATED
Southlight / Utahime's Rammus guide.
Sarah's Jungle Rammus Guide

[image loading]

+ Show Spoiler [changelog] +
10/31/2011 - Changed focus of guide, and champion's role from Tank to Tanky DPS; simplified Runes and Summoner Spells sections; completely revamped Items section, including images; changed Final Comments; added a link to Sarah's guide.

9/20/2011 - Added patch notes and changelog sections. Updated some text and added a note at the end of the guide about Rammus' viability.
Go here http://vina.biobiochile.cl/ and input the Konami Code (up up down down left right left right B A)
BajaBlood
Profile Joined August 2009
United States205 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-22 12:54:33
November 22 2010 12:34 GMT
#2
Hell yeah Rammus thread!

I actually run 1/8/21 with imp. smite offense, armor/mres/s.o.s defence - haven't put too much thought into it and might try some of the other mastery sets you listed (though I'd definitely take buff duration as my 9th point in a 0/21/9). Reduced smite cooldown helps when doing a wraith jack jungle route, as rammus doesn't need blue right away to jungle effectively.

Ghost is nice for landing a second taunt in a teamfight and escaping, flash is nice for initiating on the best possible target and can help you gank. Smite is non-negotiable. Ignite would be interesting to try, but I think I'll end up sticking with Smite/Flash.

My items are cloth+5pot, boots+ward, HoG to start. From there I'll generally finish randuins or build a banshees depending on whether I'll be taking more physical or magic damage. Often I'll build both of these as my item core unless the enemy team is unbalanced damage-wise. Rushing randuins is viable on Rammus because ball curl will give you enough armor/mr to get a good duration even if you don't have other items yet. Banshee is just a really good item in general.

Other items I get:
Merc treads (I don't think I've ever not gone merc. treads, they're just too good)
Haunting Guise (if I'm doing particularly well in a game I'll grab this to make Rammus deal a surprising amount of damage)
FoN can be nice as Rammus is actually pretty slow when not powerballing, which can make taunting people a pain.
Frozen Heart is a decent secondary armor item. The aura is decent, and CDR and mana will allow you to continue using your abilities while letting your teammates take blue buff.
QSS for dealing with those dark bindings (uncommon, usually I'm content if I'm soaking up CC, but sometimes there's someone on their team that it's imperative to CC immediately - a fed carry or twitch could be an example).

While sunfire synergizes about as well for rammus as it does anyone, I just don't feel the 700 combine cost is worth the passive. If you want more damage pick up a Haunting Guise, otherwise just build items like Randuins.

Edit: one more thing I forgot. The skilling order for the jungler is what I often run, but I've started to think about taking more levels of W before maxing E (maybe something like WQWEEREWEWREWQQRQQ). I often feel somewhat squishy around levels 10-12 if I don't have ~4 levels of W if teamfights are occurring then and adding more W also increases your jungling speed, which begins to fall off compared to other junglers as the game progresses.
ghen
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States1356 Posts
November 22 2010 12:41 GMT
#3
I start 2 HoG and boots 1 on my rammus. This gives him much needed HP and mad mad cash. They should be finished by about 12 minutes if I remember correctly. After that, finish merc treads and get basic items as needed (giants belt, negatrons)

Your job as a tank is to be extremely fluid with item choices. There won't be a single game where your build will be exactly the same, and some times you might even have to sell an item if a champion on the other team starts feeding hard and aren't a threat anymore.

I agree that thornmail is a situational item. One mistake I see on other rammus is they think it's a core item on him. Really though, if their yi is dumb enough to try and kill you in a team fight just laugh as your tristana tears him up. (he probably isn't farmed either if he likes attacking tanks) A sunfire is a better choice here anyway. Still does a little damage to him, but gives HP instead for a more well rounded defense with your ball curl up.
Unentschieden
Profile Joined August 2007
Germany1471 Posts
November 22 2010 13:38 GMT
#4
If there was a core item on Rammus it would be Randuins. It´s an incredible item on Rammus (and in general). The active is boosted by Rammuses W extending his already great CC combi.

The problem with Sunfires on Rammus (besides them not being Randuins) is the Rammus has trouble actually sticking to enemy champions once his Poweball -> Taunt wears off. They are valid once you do have Randuins but Games rarely last that long.
Zato-1
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Chile4253 Posts
November 22 2010 13:57 GMT
#5
On November 22 2010 22:38 Unentschieden wrote:
If there was a core item on Rammus it would be Randuins. It´s an incredible item on Rammus (and in general). The active is boosted by Rammuses W extending his already great CC combi.

The problem with Sunfires on Rammus (besides them not being Randuins) is the Rammus has trouble actually sticking to enemy champions once his Poweball -> Taunt wears off. They are valid once you do have Randuins but Games rarely last that long.

I'll try it, and add it to the list of recommended items (possibly instead of Sunfire even) depending on whether I find it to be as good as you say it is. Thanks for the tip :p
Go here http://vina.biobiochile.cl/ and input the Konami Code (up up down down left right left right B A)
Unentschieden
Profile Joined August 2007
Germany1471 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-22 14:31:38
November 22 2010 14:28 GMT
#6
Randuins is a very, very powerful item in general because all stats it provides are usefull and cost effective, even if you don´t count the Goldcomponent on HoG while you have it.
Most importantly it has a durationscaling AOE snare and attackspeed debuff.
Rammuses W alone extends the active by 1.5 seconds on top of the base 2 seconds - to compare how much CC in the game lasts longer than 3 seconds in the first place?
I´m playing with the idea of opening a Tankitem discussion thread because these considerations pop up constantly.
Lunek
Profile Joined October 2010
Poland164 Posts
November 22 2010 16:16 GMT
#7
I think flat armor yellows are solid on rammus. At lvl 1, if you get cloth armor + 6 armor from defensive masteries, you start with 61 armor, without DBC. 73 damage.
Niton
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States2395 Posts
November 22 2010 17:00 GMT
#8
I don't really have much to add to the topic, but I feel that this needs to be added to it in some way:

[image loading]
tree.hugger: Coming off of [(T)fantasy v. (T)Really] into [(T)Barracks v. (T)MVP] is like coming out of Manhattan into New Jersey. You just have to speed up and ignore it.
ghen
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States1356 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-22 22:38:14
November 22 2010 22:35 GMT
#9
On November 22 2010 23:28 Unentschieden wrote:
Randuins is a very, very powerful item in general because all stats it provides are usefull and cost effective, even if you don´t count the Goldcomponent on HoG while you have it.
Most importantly it has a durationscaling AOE snare and attackspeed debuff.
Rammuses W alone extends the active by 1.5 seconds on top of the base 2 seconds - to compare how much CC in the game lasts longer than 3 seconds in the first place?
I´m playing with the idea of opening a Tankitem discussion thread because these considerations pop up constantly.


I've never actually read the tooltip for Randuins Omen that closely. Here's what it says:

Active UNIQUE - Slows movement speed and attack speed of surrounding units by 35% for 2 second + 0.5 seconds for each 100 Armor and Magic Resist. 60 second cooldown.

Rammus's W at level 5 adds 150 armor and 150 mres, so even without base stats using W+Randuins = 3.5 second AoE slow+attack speed debuff, probably closer to 4-6 seconds at any given moment.

So the full combo would be something like this:

powerball to carry, taunt, "W", when taunt is about to wear off use Randuins, "R", ghost or ignite to either keep up as they run or hopefully kill them as they ghost away from your ult.
HazMat
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States17077 Posts
November 22 2010 22:41 GMT
#10
I get a 2nd point in Q at lvl 3 to make my gank a bit stronger. Then I just max taunt.
www.youtube.com/user/ShakeDrizzle | League and SSBM content creator | Armada's Youtube Editor
ghen
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States1356 Posts
November 22 2010 23:10 GMT
#11
On November 23 2010 07:41 HazMat wrote:
I get a 2nd point in Q at lvl 3 to make my gank a bit stronger. Then I just max taunt.


Looking at the numbers that might be a good way to go even for jungling speed. WQQEER.
Powerball gives an extra 50 damage per level so the monster would have to hit you 12 times per defensive curl to make up the difference going WQW. Also, powerball is a shorter cooldown. So I don't think 2 points in Q would affect jungling speed at all, and of course no one attacks your DBC during a gank anyway except the 1 second stun at level 5.
BajaBlood
Profile Joined August 2009
United States205 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-23 06:08:17
November 23 2010 05:56 GMT
#12
W also gives you 6 bonus attack damage (rammus's passive) and it probably actually grows by 6.5 (4 + 10% of the 25 extra armor) damage return per level assuming it calculates the damage return based on your armor while using DBC. Plus you won't be taking as much damage from the creeps due to the bonus armor and you'll really want maxed W and E for midgame teamfights more than a second level in Q. If Q is faster in the jungle I wouldn't expect it to be worth the survivability both in jungle and in fights.

You would be able to deal a bit more damage in ganks with 2 levels in Q, and increasing the slow % helps a little, though you'll usually have red buff and be taunting them soon after rolling into them anyway.
ghen
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States1356 Posts
November 23 2010 23:03 GMT
#13
That's what I get for trying to do math. Rammus has too many numbers for me
LightRailCoyote
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States982 Posts
November 24 2010 00:43 GMT
#14
I tried 2 levels of Q in a game with TL peeps, and it didn't make too much of a difference in jungling speed/survivability. As for how it helped in ganks, i wouldn't know, all lanes were too pushed to find out.
AKA SurfSolar ----- This is the product of a DIY inadequate home
Unentschieden
Profile Joined August 2007
Germany1471 Posts
November 24 2010 00:52 GMT
#15
W is more important I´d say. When Rammus ganks it´s not about his damage output but his CC, thus he needs to level his Taunt. Otherwise he needs W because it´s a LOT more substainability both HP and Mana (don´t hog the bluebuff!). You need decent HP to stay on the map to gank and farm.
Zato-1
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Chile4253 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-26 22:58:38
November 26 2010 22:49 GMT
#16
On several games, I tried Randuin's Omen instead of Sunfire Cape with mixed results. The item seems to be viable on Rammus, but the combination of its higher cost and lower HP makes me feel vulnerable to magic damage for a while. Additionally, the timing for when to use it never felt quite right in a team fight- it was either overlapping with my CC combo, or if I used it afterwards there weren't enough targets close by. I still edited into the OP though.
Go here http://vina.biobiochile.cl/ and input the Konami Code (up up down down left right left right B A)
Kaneh
Profile Joined April 2009
Canada737 Posts
November 27 2010 05:56 GMT
#17
so am i the only one that goes WQEEER

lose out on... dun dun dun... 50 dmg from powerball, or get .5 sec more cc on ganks up to lvl 8?

iounno. then again i run 9/0/21, which gives me a much faster smite in addition to the little bit of extra damage from ap/mpen (which helps with ganks too) and little bit of speed/runes (which also help with ganks)

i just think it all adds up for a much stronger early game that gives you a better lategame. Defensive masteries just scream "i want to farm to lategame", which is definitely something he can, but probably shouldn't do.
Kaneh
Profile Joined April 2009
Canada737 Posts
November 27 2010 06:02 GMT
#18
exhaust is probably a better choice imo. getting in more ticks of his ult is better than ignite damage, plus it blinds, plus it is actually useful lategame.

you say you like ignite, but then don't take masteries or skill choices that make your ganking even better. (2 levels of W?) which kinda confuses me.
BajaBlood
Profile Joined August 2009
United States205 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-27 06:32:07
November 27 2010 06:24 GMT
#19
Yeah, I don't see any reason to take ignite on Rammus. If you feel like you don't need a mobility summoner skill then take exhaust (I think it is necessary, though, as Rammus is ungodly slow when his Q is on cd, and ghost/flash can contribute to ganks as much as ignite/exhaust at times). IMO Flash is a bit better than Ghost > Exhaust > Ignite.

While maxing E quickly makes for stronger ganks, I feel like you're sacrificing too much survivability and jungling speed by skipping a second level of W. I still stand by something along the lines of WQWEEREWEWREWQQRQQ (2 quick levels in W and 1 in Q, then keep W and E about the same level while taking R when possible).

@Zato: If there's a substantial amount of magic damage on their team (particularly types like Annie/Anivia who are hitting hard around the time you're finishing your first big item) I generally buy a negatron cloak before finishing randuins - your EHP will be higher with HoG/nega/warden than it would be with Sunfire or Randuins alone. If they're really scary you can just build a banshees right after your HoG
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
December 06 2010 19:36 GMT
#20
I picked up Rammus recently to be my new dedicated tank. Jungling with him is very quick and easy, and his ganks are lethal. As for the ideal item progression, right now I'm liking cloth + 5hpots => boots + ward + more hpots (after first jungle run and before first gank => HoG => sunfire => merc tread. After that, I'll get wardens or a negatron cloak depending upon what type of protection that I need. I don't like completing randuin's too early because I like the HoG income too much. You really don't have a lot of time to farm.
LightRailCoyote
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States982 Posts
December 06 2010 22:22 GMT
#21
On November 27 2010 14:56 Kaneh wrote:
so am i the only one that goes WQEEER

lose out on... dun dun dun... 50 dmg from powerball, or get .5 sec more cc on ganks up to lvl 8?

iounno. then again i run 9/0/21, which gives me a much faster smite in addition to the little bit of extra damage from ap/mpen (which helps with ganks too) and little bit of speed/runes (which also help with ganks)

i just think it all adds up for a much stronger early game that gives you a better lategame. Defensive masteries just scream "i want to farm to lategame", which is definitely something he can, but probably shouldn't do.


I max E first all the time. I think it's undoubtedly correct. It's his most powerful skill by far and increasing the disable time is amazing
AKA SurfSolar ----- This is the product of a DIY inadequate home
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
December 06 2010 22:26 GMT
#22
If you jungle Rammus, 1 Q, 2 W, max E first.
Lane Rammus, 1 Q, 1 W, still max E first.

There's no reason why you wouldn't max E first in any situation. Taunt is the main CC Rammus brings to the table.
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
hasuprotoss
Profile Blog Joined March 2004
United States4612 Posts
December 07 2010 00:46 GMT
#23
How badly does only 1 rank of W hurt his jungling time? I've actually started to go WQ R>E>W>Q when I do his jungling.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/index.php?viewdays=0&show_part=5 <--- Articles Section on TL
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
December 07 2010 01:24 GMT
#24
On December 07 2010 09:46 hasuprotoss wrote:
How badly does only 1 rank of W hurt his jungling time? I've actually started to go WQ R>E>W>Q when I do his jungling.


I enjoy the slight boost in his skill. I tend to level skills twice that help in the jungle before moving on to the primary skill. So for Rammus, 2 in W, then max E. Nunu I do the same, 2 in Q, max E. In both cases, I feel it helps in surviability.
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
Zato-1
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Chile4253 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-09 10:41:27
December 09 2010 10:18 GMT
#25
Changed Masteries around a bit after experimenting with different builds, will add some explanations for why individual masteries are helpful.
Go here http://vina.biobiochile.cl/ and input the Konami Code (up up down down left right left right B A)
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
December 15 2010 15:31 GMT
#26
I don't understand why Rammus isn't the target of more bans. He's the one tank that I consistently see carry games by himself. He's not one of those tanky-DPS champs that need to have very good early games to carry the late game, either. He simply is dangerous at all times. He may very well be the most useful jungler to have on your team because of his ability to gank and overall utility in teamfights.

As for item progressions, I've settled on boots1 => hog => hog => sunfire/merc treads (order depends upon what type of damage mitigation that I need) => negatron cloak. The dual-hog is just too good for supplementing your income.
cascades
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Singapore6122 Posts
December 15 2010 15:33 GMT
#27
On December 16 2010 00:31 xDaunt wrote:
I don't understand why Rammus isn't the target of more bans. He's the one tank that I consistently see carry games by himself. He's not one of those tanky-DPS champs that need to have very good early games to carry the late game, either. He simply is dangerous at all times. He may very well be the most useful jungler to have on your team because of his ability to gank and overall utility in teamfights.

As for item progressions, I've settled on boots1 => hog => hog => sunfire/merc treads (order depends upon what type of damage mitigation that I need) => negatron cloak. The dual-hog is just too good for supplementing your income.


Malphite says hi hohoho.
HS: cascades#1595 || LoL: stoppin
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
December 15 2010 15:45 GMT
#28
On December 16 2010 00:33 cascades wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2010 00:31 xDaunt wrote:
I don't understand why Rammus isn't the target of more bans. He's the one tank that I consistently see carry games by himself. He's not one of those tanky-DPS champs that need to have very good early games to carry the late game, either. He simply is dangerous at all times. He may very well be the most useful jungler to have on your team because of his ability to gank and overall utility in teamfights.

As for item progressions, I've settled on boots1 => hog => hog => sunfire/merc treads (order depends upon what type of damage mitigation that I need) => negatron cloak. The dual-hog is just too good for supplementing your income.


Malphite says hi hohoho.


Malphite doesn't neutralize carries in the same way that Rammus does in teamfights. Yeah, Malphite has a good early game and has good lane harassment. However, I just don't think that he brings as much to the table as Rammus due to his lack of a taunt.
Zato-1
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Chile4253 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-16 13:37:06
December 16 2010 12:13 GMT
#29
On December 16 2010 00:31 xDaunt wrote:
I don't understand why Rammus isn't the target of more bans. He's the one tank that I consistently see carry games by himself. He's not one of those tanky-DPS champs that need to have very good early games to carry the late game, either. He simply is dangerous at all times. He may very well be the most useful jungler to have on your team because of his ability to gank and overall utility in teamfights.

As for item progressions, I've settled on boots1 => hog => hog => sunfire/merc treads (order depends upon what type of damage mitigation that I need) => negatron cloak. The dual-hog is just too good for supplementing your income.

Let's start by taking a look at top tanks and their rankings on Elementz' Draft Mode tier list (as of its December 6 update):

Tier 1: Shen, Rammus
Tier 2: Garen, Amumu, Udyr, Gragas
Tier 3: Cho'gath, Malphite, Mordekaiser, Nunu, Galio

Now, let's see what the latest patch has to say about each one of these:

+ Show Spoiler +
*Garen: From this discussion, we see his early game damage was nerfed by 17%, his late game damage was nerfed by 26%, and now he can't stack sunfires. Predictions of his fall go all the way to tier 4 or 5.

*Udyr: Tiger Stance doesn't look too hot still, Phoenix Stance got nerfed, and no Locket. Definitely nerfed.

*Gragas: Drunken Rage was nerfed hard, Explosive Cask got a significant nerf, Spirit Visage was nerfed quite a bit, Innervating Locket was removed. Nothing short of a swift, fierce kick in the balls- Gragas is but a shadow of his former self now.

*Cho'gath: Buff to his Rupture, nerf to his passive. Not sure if this is a net buff or nerf.

*Malphite: His laning was nerfed due to a shorter Seismic Shard range, and later he'll be a bit more mana hungry with the Ground Slam mana cost increase per level. He was definitely nerfed, though not nearly as hard as Gragas.

*Mordekaiser: Mace of Spades buff is nice, but his laning should take a big hit from the nerfs to his passive.


Shen and Rammus are currently sticking out like a sore thumb at the top of the tanking world, with Amumu getting third place. If we don't see more Rammus bans yet, it's because people haven't caught on- it's easier for people to single out champions for bans after they've received buffs, and neither of these two have received buffs in the last patch or two. So yeah, I'm with you- I'm definitely expecting Rammus to start being a familiar face on the ban list in the future.

--

Updating the Items section of the OP to reflect the Sunfire nerfs. Instead of a second Sunfire, I'm currently getting a Giant's Belt followed by a Thornmail; the Giant's Belt can later be upgraded to a Warmog's.
Go here http://vina.biobiochile.cl/ and input the Konami Code (up up down down left right left right B A)
GranDim
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
Canada1214 Posts
December 16 2010 12:45 GMT
#30
My favorite CDR items were nerfed but I don't understand why they are not in the recommended item list. Rammus goal during a team fight is to disrupt the other team and CDR is the best stat for that. It also helps tanking has you can chain DBC Powerball DBC at 40%. Before the patch my core build was HoGX2-3, Merc treads, Omen, Spirit Visage.

Other possible items

Banshee for teams with too much CC, the potential to burst me down during initiation or just has a late game item for MR and HP.
Frozen Heart to replace Spirit Visage against teams with a lot of AD / Support.
Other tanking items are more situational.


I have been thinking about using CDR/18 glyphs to make up for the Omen nerf they are 9% CDR at 18 but I hate that they are as effective as flat CDR at 13.
ZERG_RUSSIAN
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
10417 Posts
December 16 2010 12:55 GMT
#31
On the topic of Amumu: He's horrible. He does not belong that high. Anyone who thinks he belongs there is playing against baddies. That tier list putting Amumu at tier 2 is waaaaaay off. I haven't seen an Amumu in ranked in like over a month.
I'm on GOLD CHAIN
Zato-1
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Chile4253 Posts
December 16 2010 13:35 GMT
#32
On December 16 2010 21:45 GranDim wrote:
My favorite CDR items were nerfed but I don't understand why they are not in the recommended item list. Rammus goal during a team fight is to disrupt the other team and CDR is the best stat for that. It also helps tanking has you can chain DBC Powerball DBC at 40%. Before the patch my core build was HoGX2-3, Merc treads, Omen, Spirit Visage.

Other possible items

Banshee for teams with too much CC, the potential to burst me down during initiation or just has a late game item for MR and HP.
Frozen Heart to replace Spirit Visage against teams with a lot of AD / Support.
Other tanking items are more situational.


I have been thinking about using CDR/18 glyphs to make up for the Omen nerf they are 9% CDR at 18 but I hate that they are as effective as flat CDR at 13.

Team fights don't usually last long enough in my experience to warrant that much CDR; I use one Powerball, one DBC, one Taunt, one Tremors and whatever clickable items / summoner spells I have. The rest is mostly just chasing / running away in my experience.
Go here http://vina.biobiochile.cl/ and input the Konami Code (up up down down left right left right B A)
barbsq
Profile Joined November 2009
United States5348 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-16 13:58:20
December 16 2010 13:52 GMT
#33
On December 16 2010 00:45 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2010 00:33 cascades wrote:
On December 16 2010 00:31 xDaunt wrote:
I don't understand why Rammus isn't the target of more bans. He's the one tank that I consistently see carry games by himself. He's not one of those tanky-DPS champs that need to have very good early games to carry the late game, either. He simply is dangerous at all times. He may very well be the most useful jungler to have on your team because of his ability to gank and overall utility in teamfights.

As for item progressions, I've settled on boots1 => hog => hog => sunfire/merc treads (order depends upon what type of damage mitigation that I need) => negatron cloak. The dual-hog is just too good for supplementing your income.


Malphite says hi hohoho.


Malphite doesn't neutralize carries in the same way that Rammus does in teamfights. Yeah, Malphite has a good early game and has good lane harassment. However, I just don't think that he brings as much to the table as Rammus due to his lack of a taunt.


uh, groundslam + omen pretty much neutralizes a carry, actually it would be more accurate to say that it emasculates them. much in the same way wither does actually. Not to mention with malph ult, you have a foolproof way of getting to them

(sorry, rammus thread, but i felt the need to point that out)
Look at this guy, constantly diluting himself! (╮°-°)╮┳━┳ ( ╯°□°)╯ ┻━┻
Zato-1
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Chile4253 Posts
December 19 2010 02:45 GMT
#34
On December 16 2010 21:13 Zato-1 wrote:
If we don't see more Rammus bans yet, it's because people haven't caught on

... if my latest ranked games are any indication? People caught on

*goes to brush up on his Udyr skills while picking Rammus for Ranked is nearly impossible*
Go here http://vina.biobiochile.cl/ and input the Konami Code (up up down down left right left right B A)
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
December 19 2010 02:47 GMT
#35
Yeah, he's banned in at least half my games now. Time for a new jungle-tank.
Advocado
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Denmark994 Posts
December 23 2010 15:00 GMT
#36
Do yourself a favor and try Rammus with powerball & revive. Holy shit that armadillo is fast out of spawn!
http://www.twitch.tv/advocadosc2
BlackPaladin
Profile Joined May 2010
United States9316 Posts
December 23 2010 15:25 GMT
#37
On December 24 2010 00:00 Advocado wrote:
Do yourself a favor and try Rammus with powerball & revive. Holy shit that armadillo is fast out of spawn!


Powerball, revive, sivir's ult, zilean's speed boost, galio's gust. ZOOOM at over 5000 movespeed.
"Your full potential does not matter if you do not use all 100% of it."
bN`
Profile Joined May 2009
Slovenia504 Posts
December 23 2010 16:24 GMT
#38
On December 24 2010 00:25 BlackPaladin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2010 00:00 Advocado wrote:
Do yourself a favor and try Rammus with powerball & revive. Holy shit that armadillo is fast out of spawn!


Powerball, revive, sivir's ult, zilean's speed boost, galio's gust. ZOOOM at over 5000 movespeed.


With boots of mobility, shurelya's reverie and QUADRUPLE TRIFORCE(fuck riot for removing speed on phamtom dancers).

[image loading]

E-famous people in my normal games. What's the world coming to. I see xPeke(team Birth) and I'm thinking free ride yippee, then I help with FB and another kill on bottom, later gank mid and kogmaw gets red but somehow it still turns into a 40minute game which a clutch smite on baron to seal it. Also proves how fucked up matchmaking is. Out team had 2.5k wins combined and their kennen was lvl 25 >.<
"It's just a ride." - Bill Hicks
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-23 16:41:06
December 23 2010 16:39 GMT
#39
On December 16 2010 21:55 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
On the topic of Amumu: He's horrible. He does not belong that high. Anyone who thinks he belongs there is playing against baddies. That tier list putting Amumu at tier 2 is waaaaaay off. I haven't seen an Amumu in ranked in like over a month.

i disagree really hard. I think amumu is still batshit insane and is currently the sleeper tank in the metagame.

On December 24 2010 01:24 bN` wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2010 00:25 BlackPaladin wrote:
On December 24 2010 00:00 Advocado wrote:
Do yourself a favor and try Rammus with powerball & revive. Holy shit that armadillo is fast out of spawn!


Powerball, revive, sivir's ult, zilean's speed boost, galio's gust. ZOOOM at over 5000 movespeed.


With boots of mobility, shurelya's reverie and QUADRUPLE TRIFORCE(fuck riot for removing speed on phamtom dancers).

they got rid of the dodge, not the speed.
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
Zato-1
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Chile4253 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-23 18:17:23
December 23 2010 18:16 GMT
#40
On December 24 2010 01:39 Mogwai wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2010 01:24 bN` wrote:
On December 24 2010 00:25 BlackPaladin wrote:
On December 24 2010 00:00 Advocado wrote:
Do yourself a favor and try Rammus with powerball & revive. Holy shit that armadillo is fast out of spawn!


Powerball, revive, sivir's ult, zilean's speed boost, galio's gust. ZOOOM at over 5000 movespeed.


With boots of mobility, shurelya's reverie and QUADRUPLE TRIFORCE(fuck riot for removing speed on phamtom dancers).

they got rid of the dodge, not the speed.

It only gives 15% movement now though, used to give 20%.
Go here http://vina.biobiochile.cl/ and input the Konami Code (up up down down left right left right B A)
spinesheath
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany8679 Posts
December 23 2010 18:36 GMT
#41
On December 24 2010 03:16 Zato-1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2010 01:39 Mogwai wrote:
On December 24 2010 01:24 bN` wrote:
On December 24 2010 00:25 BlackPaladin wrote:
On December 24 2010 00:00 Advocado wrote:
Do yourself a favor and try Rammus with powerball & revive. Holy shit that armadillo is fast out of spawn!


Powerball, revive, sivir's ult, zilean's speed boost, galio's gust. ZOOOM at over 5000 movespeed.


With boots of mobility, shurelya's reverie and QUADRUPLE TRIFORCE(fuck riot for removing speed on phamtom dancers).

they got rid of the dodge, not the speed.

It only gives 15% movement now though, used to give 20%.

Must have been a LOOONG time ago. I am 99.99% certain that it was 15% before that last change, and hasn't been touched ever since I started playing LoL.
If you have a good reason to disagree with the above, please tell me. Thank you.
ghen
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States1356 Posts
December 23 2010 19:11 GMT
#42
On December 24 2010 01:24 bN` wrote:


E-famous people in my normal games. What's the world coming to. I see xPeke(team Birth) and I'm thinking free ride yippee, then I help with FB and another kill on bottom, later gank mid and kogmaw gets red but somehow it still turns into a 40minute game which a clutch smite on baron to seal it. Also proves how fucked up matchmaking is. Out team had 2.5k wins combined and their kennen was lvl 25 >.<


Um, sounds like matchmaking is working as intended. Their team had just as much chance at winning as yours. Doesn't matter how many games you play or what summoner level you are.
oberon
Profile Joined May 2009
United States1320 Posts
December 31 2010 01:15 GMT
#43
Best path with rammus? Start blue with curl or something sneakier?
DarthThienAn
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States2734 Posts
December 31 2010 01:34 GMT
#44
wraith jack lolol.
www.cstarleague.com | Love is like playing the piano. First you must learn to play by the rules, then you must forget the rules and play from your heart.
oberon
Profile Joined May 2009
United States1320 Posts
December 31 2010 02:08 GMT
#45
On December 31 2010 10:34 DarthThienAn wrote:
wraith jack lolol.


This is not a jungle path. This is a 10 character post with no useful information.
ghen
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States1356 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-31 03:03:53
December 31 2010 03:02 GMT
#46
On December 31 2010 11:08 oberon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 31 2010 10:34 DarthThienAn wrote:
wraith jack lolol.


This is not a jungle path. This is a 10 character post with no useful information.


Here is my wraith jacking path with rammus (and almost everyone else)

Practice with bots to get the correct timing of powerballs.

cloth+5 pots
Their wraiths (smite)->your wolves->your wraiths->your golems (smite)->ghost->their wraiths
May require move speed quints. I forget what I use for rammus.

You have to use powerball sparingly for damage and mobility due to mana loss. If you do this path though you will get to their wraiths within 5 seconds of them spawning and if you do it well, you will get there as they spawn. Unless the other jungler has been waiting for them to pop you will then take the wraiths and get out as they get to the camp. If they have been waiting they will be underleveled. Ping like a frigging madman and try to kill either the jungler or the mid lane who comes to help (because they always do).

Make sure when you come back from purchasing after this that you do your wraiths first. The other jungler will most likely try to take your wraiths as some sort of retribution, but they will be low health and under leveled.. ready to die.
oberon
Profile Joined May 2009
United States1320 Posts
December 31 2010 03:42 GMT
#47
On December 31 2010 12:02 ghen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 31 2010 11:08 oberon wrote:
On December 31 2010 10:34 DarthThienAn wrote:
wraith jack lolol.


This is not a jungle path. This is a 10 character post with no useful information.


Here is my wraith jacking path with rammus (and almost everyone else)

Practice with bots to get the correct timing of powerballs.

cloth+5 pots
Their wraiths (smite)->your wolves->your wraiths->your golems (smite)->ghost->their wraiths
May require move speed quints. I forget what I use for rammus.

You have to use powerball sparingly for damage and mobility due to mana loss. If you do this path though you will get to their wraiths within 5 seconds of them spawning and if you do it well, you will get there as they spawn. Unless the other jungler has been waiting for them to pop you will then take the wraiths and get out as they get to the camp. If they have been waiting they will be underleveled. Ping like a frigging madman and try to kill either the jungler or the mid lane who comes to help (because they always do).

Make sure when you come back from purchasing after this that you do your wraiths first. The other jungler will most likely try to take your wraiths as some sort of retribution, but they will be low health and under leveled.. ready to die.


So you don't actually take ANY buffs with rammus? That's...unexpected, certainly.
JackDino
Profile Joined July 2010
Gabon6219 Posts
December 31 2010 17:36 GMT
#48
On December 31 2010 12:02 ghen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 31 2010 11:08 oberon wrote:
On December 31 2010 10:34 DarthThienAn wrote:
wraith jack lolol.


This is not a jungle path. This is a 10 character post with no useful information.

Make sure when you come back from purchasing after this that you do your wraiths first. The other jungler will most likely try to take your wraiths as some sort of retribution, but they will be low health and under leveled.. ready to die.

What if they take your blue/red as some sort of retribution?

This isnt Broodwar so I dont owe anyone respect for beating me. -arb
ghen
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States1356 Posts
December 31 2010 18:14 GMT
#49
On January 01 2011 02:36 JackDino wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 31 2010 12:02 ghen wrote:
On December 31 2010 11:08 oberon wrote:
On December 31 2010 10:34 DarthThienAn wrote:
wraith jack lolol.


This is not a jungle path. This is a 10 character post with no useful information.

Make sure when you come back from purchasing after this that you do your wraiths first. The other jungler will most likely try to take your wraiths as some sort of retribution, but they will be low health and under leveled.. ready to die.

What if they take your blue/red as some sort of retribution?



Don't let them. You have powerball, be everywhere.
gtrsrs
Profile Joined June 2010
United States9109 Posts
December 31 2010 19:42 GMT
#50
if you're afraid of being buff-jacked after you wraith jack, buy a ward
big wraith is worth 35, small wraiths are worth 12x3=36, total of 71 gold from wraiths, probably takes about 10 seconds to kill and 8 seconds to bluepill so there's another 20 passive gold-gain, that's enough to afford a ward for your blue. also ghen is right, rammus is soooo mobile he should never get jacked
i play ... hearthstone =\^.^/= Winterfox
JackDino
Profile Joined July 2010
Gabon6219 Posts
January 01 2011 17:02 GMT
#51
On December 16 2010 21:55 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
On the topic of Amumu: He's horrible. He does not belong that high. Anyone who thinks he belongs there is playing against baddies. That tier list putting Amumu at tier 2 is waaaaaay off. I haven't seen an Amumu in ranked in like over a month.

While I know this is the rammus thread, could you elaborate on this a bit?
This isnt Broodwar so I dont owe anyone respect for beating me. -arb
Kaneh
Profile Joined April 2009
Canada737 Posts
January 01 2011 22:59 GMT
#52
he was only really good when everyone was running tanky meleeish champs. When morde/garen/vlad were like guaranteed picks every game, and his crying/ult countered perfectly.

also when people figured out that mumu without blue sucked ass at jungling, and started pressuring him off blue so his earlygame took a nosedive.
Zato-1
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Chile4253 Posts
January 20 2011 00:13 GMT
#53
OP updated, Runes section. I used to recommend Flat Health Quints and Arpen Marks, but I no longer find that to be optimal. Since the buff to Jungle Monsters in Patch 1.0.0.109, 3 of your damage sources got weaker: Powerball, damage return from Defensive Ball Curl, and Smite; all of these deal significantly less damage vs. Ancient Golem, Ancient Lizard and small golems. Because of this, Rammus relies more on his autoattack now, and his jungling speed is significantly impacted- unless he changes his runes to compensate, in my experience.

I chose AS runes because they provide the biggest synergy- Rammus already has a lot of AD thanks to his passive, so AD runes aren't particularly good on him, and crit is both bad and unreliable on him. Being able to apply his significant AD value faster is the most powerful option.

I chose Armor quints because they're just really good for jungling; armor mitigates damage taken, and through his Passive it also grants him a good chunk of AD.

Oh, and on a final note...
Rammus

* Puncturing Taunt cooldown increased to 12 from 9

Remember that Rammus nerf on Patch 1.0.0.109? It... uh... didn't actually happen. Get on a practice game and check it out; the CD on his taunt is still 9 seconds.
Go here http://vina.biobiochile.cl/ and input the Konami Code (up up down down left right left right B A)
Kinky
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States4126 Posts
January 20 2011 02:24 GMT
#54
Maybe the tooltip just didn't change? I haven't tested the actual CD though.
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
January 20 2011 02:47 GMT
#55
Thanks for updating your OP. I wish more of our writers did the same.

One thing I'd like to ask that in the future, keep your old info in a spoiler and just update the thread with new patch info.
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
Navi
Profile Joined November 2009
5286 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-20 07:15:13
January 20 2011 06:07 GMT
#56
attackspeed marks have always been the norm for rammus even before the patch afaik

i know manyreason used to run movespeed quints (they're just so nice on junglers and only help rammus some more) but with the changes im not sure if armor is necessary as of now in getting you a safer jungle clear

as in, if you really needed it. post patch and all that.
Hey! Listen!
Zato-1
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Chile4253 Posts
January 20 2011 11:16 GMT
#57
On January 20 2011 11:24 Kinky wrote:
Maybe the tooltip just didn't change? I haven't tested the actual CD though.

I confirmed that both the tooltip and the actual cooldown are 9 seconds, not 12 like the patch would suggest.

On January 20 2011 15:07 Navi wrote:
attackspeed marks have always been the norm for rammus even before the patch afaik

i know manyreason used to run movespeed quints (they're just so nice on junglers and only help rammus some more) but with the changes im not sure if armor is necessary as of now in getting you a safer jungle clear

as in, if you really needed it. post patch and all that.

For jungle safety and jungle clearing speed reasons, I find getting those 13 points of armor is 'necessary' now- you can actually survive without them if you can reliably hit all 4 wraiths with your Powerball on your first run, but the extra armor provides enough safety and speed that I wouldn't jungle without them. You could use your Seal slots for that armor bonus (same total armor from 9 flat armor seals as from 3 flat armor quints) instead of your Quint slots; however, freeing up your Seal slots allows you to keep mana5/level seals, which are more valuable, IMO, than any set of Quints you could take if you used up your Seal slots for the bonus armor.

On January 20 2011 11:47 NeoIllusions wrote:
One thing I'd like to ask that in the future, keep your old info in a spoiler and just update the thread with new patch info.

That's a good idea, I'll probably do that in the future.
Go here http://vina.biobiochile.cl/ and input the Konami Code (up up down down left right left right B A)
Shizuru~
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Malaysia1676 Posts
February 02 2011 09:29 GMT
#58
another nerf to rammus...

how many more patches would it take to bring rammus down to garen post nerf lvl?
Zato-1
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Chile4253 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-02 23:23:35
February 02 2011 22:54 GMT
#59
On February 02 2011 18:29 Shizuru~ wrote:
another nerf to rammus...

how many more patches would it take to bring rammus down to garen post nerf lvl?

Actually, this patch brought the very first nerf to Rammus.

Patch 1.0.0.109's patch notes said the cooldown on Rammus' taunt had been increased. This was not true; both the in-game tooltip and the actual in-game cooldown remained unchanged.

Now, patch 1.0.0.110 came along, and it brought not only the nerfs you can read in the patch notes, but also the Taunt cooldown nerf that should have been included in the previous patch.

I'm not overly worried about the Powerball nerf; the effects of the nerf are more serious at higher levels of the skill, and I don't level Powerball past level 1 until I hit champion level 14; by when I have Powerball maxed out, if I hit someone with Powerball? Either they flashed away instantly, or they're not getting away from me due to my taunt. This is a nerf to be sure, but it doesn't feel like a big deal.

The Taunt nerf is a lot more painful; your second taunt during a team fight will be significantly delayed, which will definitely be felt in-game.

After these changes, I could see Rammus stepping back down to Tier 2. I don't really see him going below that; Garen was a shitty DPS champion who could be pretty good when built as a tank. With the Sunfire Cape changes and a complete rework to his main damage skill, Riot basically killed the tank build and forced Garen to build as a DPS. Oh, and the changes were also a BIG nerf to his DPS build, which was already pretty bad.

Rammus has a long way to go before getting to Garen-land. He is still an excellent tank, although probably behind Shen overall now.
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TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
February 08 2011 07:57 GMT
#60
http://www.solomid.net/guides.php?g=1

Chaox just put up a Rammus guide on Solomid. Some interesting differences from what we've got here (e.g. getting 3 ranks of Q before level 6, instead of another W rank or straight jumping into E), so IMO it's worth linking in the OP, and maybe warrants some discussion.
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spinesheath
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany8679 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-08 10:17:46
February 08 2011 10:17 GMT
#61
On February 08 2011 16:57 TheYango wrote:
http://www.solomid.net/guides.php?g=1

Chaox just put up a Rammus guide on Solomid. Some interesting differences from what we've got here (e.g. getting 3 ranks of Q before level 6, instead of another W rank or straight jumping into E), so IMO it's worth linking in the OP, and maybe warrants some discussion.


No Smite Mastery, HP Quints, Vet Scars over Defensive Mastery (REALLY?), Perseverance over Good Hands, no Greed. I don't like this.


Now check out the REAL PRO Rammus build: Cloth > Boots > Wriggles > Zeal > other speedy items.
If you have a good reason to disagree with the above, please tell me. Thank you.
Unentschieden
Profile Joined August 2007
Germany1471 Posts
February 08 2011 10:38 GMT
#62
Yeah, but I really disagree with Q over W or E. It´s taken for the mobility which you get at level 1. The slow? Rammus gets red as jungler, also leveling Taunt is far more usefull than the slow on PB. Each level of PB adds 50 more damage, however Curl increases returndamage and Rammuses passive, Taunt decreases Armor.
Since he is powerballing (with increased costs) everywhere he has to pick up A LOT mana, even though he starts at blue.
Juicyfruit
Profile Joined May 2008
Canada5484 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-08 13:15:34
February 08 2011 13:10 GMT
#63
Higher burst > slightly longer cc.

If you engage in a small skirmish, that taunt really isn't going to help you win.

On a different note, I hate how he gets level 3 in harden skin instead of 2 in defense mastery + 1 in harden skin.
spinesheath
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany8679 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-08 13:42:03
February 08 2011 13:41 GMT
#64
Or 3 in hardern skin and 2 in defensive mastery.

Half a second longer taunt can easily mean +150 damage from you and your allies. It also means that the enemy is less likely to use his flash/ghost/some escape spell before he dies. Or in a teamfight, he might not be able to use some nuke in time etc. I would value that over +50 magic damage.
If you have a good reason to disagree with the above, please tell me. Thank you.
Juicyfruit
Profile Joined May 2008
Canada5484 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-08 13:59:47
February 08 2011 13:58 GMT
#65
It could...if there's enough of you, but chances are that it wouldn`t. If your allies are competent the target will be bursted down in that initial 1 second of taunt. Extra cc would be useful if your allies had good DPS, but few champs do that early on in the game. Early game is all about burst. Burst doesn`t last long.

The point is that front-loaded-reliable damage is a better investment early on. It`ll help you win small skirmishes better, and you jungle faster than if you maxed taunt.

The 3 second cc is godly later on especially when that ranged DPS has tons of attack speed to proc your defense curl.
Unentschieden
Profile Joined August 2007
Germany1471 Posts
February 08 2011 16:20 GMT
#66
It´s just 50 Damage per level. Taunt does more via its armorreduction against single targets since it multiplies with (allies) attackdamage. You definetly want to prioritize ganking, Runes and Dragonkilling over Wolves and Wraiths.
Also you don´t gimp your ganking for fractions of seconds of faster jungling - if it were even faster. Strong ganks are the reason quick clearing is important.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-08 16:32:23
February 08 2011 16:20 GMT
#67
On February 08 2011 19:17 spinesheath wrote:
No Smite Mastery, HP Quints, Vet Scars over Defensive Mastery (REALLY?), Perseverance over Good Hands, no Greed. I don't like this.

The masteries are the biggest thing that stuck out to me--though to be fair he justifies Vet Scars by the fact that Defensive Mastery is worthless in level 1 fights, and Vet Scars isn't, and he's not the only high-Elo player to fall into the Perseverance noob-trap.

With regard to Q vs. W/E, I think we have to be careful about individual comparisons--obviously W is better for clearing camps, and obviously E is better for ganking--but Powerball offers both in one skill. It's not better individually than the other two, but does having rank 3 Powerball, rank 1 DBC, and rank 1 taunt offer a better balance between clearing speed and ganking power than having rank 1 Powerball, rank 2 DBC, and rank 2 taunt?

On February 09 2011 01:20 Unentschieden wrote:
It´s just 50 Damage per level. Taunt does more via its armorreduction against single targets since it multiplies with (allies) attackdamage. You definetly want to prioritize ganking, Runes and Dragonkilling over Wolves and Wraiths.

It's only 5 extra armor reduction per rank--that's going to translate into like 3-4 extra damage per-person per-autoattack (and for most champs, autoattacks are going to be the only low-level source of physical damage--though there are a few exceptions like Panth). At low levels when the debuff only stays on for like 2 seconds, that's 2-3 autoattacks per person (assuming they're even in range to hit your gank target, and don't spend the 2 seconds of taunt to cast spells), which is doesn't add up to 50 damage unless your whole team is hitting one dude.

The armor reduction is worth more later because it's a % increase to physical damage--but at low levels when AD is on the order of 60-70, and attack speeds are fairly low, there's not much damage to multiply.
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Juicyfruit
Profile Joined May 2008
Canada5484 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-08 16:53:16
February 08 2011 16:46 GMT
#68
On February 09 2011 01:20 Unentschieden wrote:
It´s just 50 Damage per level. Taunt does more via its armorreduction against single targets since it multiplies with (allies) attackdamage. You definetly want to prioritize ganking, Runes and Dragonkilling over Wolves and Wraiths.
Also you don´t gimp your ganking for fractions of seconds of faster jungling - if it were even faster. Strong ganks are the reason quick clearing is important.


50 damage per level is a monsterous increase in damage. By your reasoning, casters should stop leveling their nukes because they typically don't do 200 base damage at level 3. With blue buff you can sometimes powerball twice in one gank to finish someone off since it's very hard to run away from if you meet rammus in the jungle. It also does immediate burst damage to several targets in a skirmish.
Zato-1
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Chile4253 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-09 23:38:03
February 09 2011 23:26 GMT
#69
My take on the build on the proposed guide, compared to my own sponsored build, is:

- Runes: More flat HP, less armor, less mana regen: This is undoubtedly stronger for level 1 fights and to survive counterjungling, while being worse for actual jungling and for keeping your mana up after you stop hogging the blue buff. It may be that at higher ELO levels than I play in, level 1 fights are a big deal- if so, this choice could make sense, although I'm curious as to why he chose 5 armor seals and 4 mana regen rather than going for full armor.

-Masteries: I agree with Juicyfruit: 2/2 Defensive Mastery + 1/3 Harden Skin >> 3/3 Harden Skin. Veteran's Scars instead of going into Utility for Quickness is a good choice if you care a lot about level 1 fights and surving counterjungling ganks, not so good a choice otherwise. Good Hands >> Perseverance.

- Skill build: I feel this skill build makes for significantly stronger level 5 ganks, but is weaker all the way from level 6 to 14; if you already have Tremors, then extra Taunt duration will make for stronger ganks than a bigger Powerball- and from level 10 onwards, when this build finally catches up in taunt duration, you'll definitely prefer to level up DBC over Powerball. Stronger level 5 ganks are a nice perk to be sure, but I'm not sure they're worth the cost.

- Item build: 100% with him on the "Starting Items" and "First back to base" parts. That said, I'm not a big fan of Randuin's on Rammus- I find the extra damage on Sunfire is more useful early on, and FoN has its upsides over BV- especially if your team has no healer and you're taking incidental damage that you wouldn't heal otherwise (hello Teemo shrooms).

- Jungling routes: I feel he really should include a small golems first jungle route. If you're scared of counterjungling, adding Veteran's Scars and HP quints but not considering a safe jungle opening just seems very silly to me (golem camp is quite exposed and regardless of how much bonus HP you get from masteries and runes, you're still gonna get pretty low if you start there).

Overall, the guide seems viable; there are some unambiguous mistakes (Perseverance over Good Hands, Harden Skin x3 and no Defensive Mastery), an interesting build in Powerball x3 for a strong level 5 gank (which I find is ultimately not worth what it considering what it costs you from level 6 onwards, an interesting variation of which would be going WQQEE then R>E>W>Q, giving you some more oomph for early ganks without hurting your taunt levels later on), and yet another interesting choice in all the extra level 1 HP he goes for from his mastery & rune choices. I'll link it in the OP, as well as edit in this skill build variation which I feel is altogether stronger than the one suggested by the guide.
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Phrost
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States4008 Posts
February 09 2011 23:45 GMT
#70
ok
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Juicyfruit
Profile Joined May 2008
Canada5484 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-18 06:01:58
April 18 2011 05:33 GMT
#71
Ever since the heart of gold change I have trouble playing rammus. Aegis simply isn't an item rammus can afford to get because he needs more cost-effective tanking options for HIMSELF. Since rammus needs to survive a lot of upfront damage to be really effective unlike amumu (who stalls long enough with his ult that he doesn't need to be as uber tanky) he basically needs to go for the most cost-effective items to boost his EHP.

I still get 1 heart of gold for early HP boost and for randuins later, but other than that...suggestions?

The problem extends further because the lack of heart of gold really forces him to cut back on potions which make sustainability a problem. I want to go double philo-stone on him which will let him roam forever but that will in turn make him too squishy. However, the net effect will probably be positive especially in soloQ, and you can sell your philostones for tank item after you used them to pad your early game.
JackDino
Profile Joined July 2010
Gabon6219 Posts
April 18 2011 07:26 GMT
#72
On April 18 2011 14:33 Juicyfruit wrote:
Ever since the heart of gold change I have trouble playing rammus. Aegis simply isn't an item rammus can afford to get because he needs more cost-effective tanking options for HIMSELF. Since rammus needs to survive a lot of upfront damage to be really effective unlike amumu (who stalls long enough with his ult that he doesn't need to be as uber tanky) he basically needs to go for the most cost-effective items to boost his EHP.

I still get 1 heart of gold for early HP boost and for randuins later, but other than that...suggestions?

The problem extends further because the lack of heart of gold really forces him to cut back on potions which make sustainability a problem. I want to go double philo-stone on him which will let him roam forever but that will in turn make him too squishy. However, the net effect will probably be positive especially in soloQ, and you can sell your philostones for tank item after you used them to pad your early game.

Sunfire Sunfire Sunfire Sunfire Sunfire Sunfire, pop W and you don't die.
This isnt Broodwar so I dont owe anyone respect for beating me. -arb
crate
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States2474 Posts
April 18 2011 07:40 GMT
#73
Get an early Catalyst imo. Rammus needs some source of mana or mp regen anyway or he can't give up bluebuff, and he obviously wants the HP; Catalyst is just about the best item ever if you want HP and mana so yeah....
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TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-18 08:00:59
April 18 2011 07:55 GMT
#74
On April 18 2011 14:33 Juicyfruit wrote:
Ever since the heart of gold change I have trouble playing rammus. Aegis simply isn't an item rammus can afford to get because he needs more cost-effective tanking options for HIMSELF. Since rammus needs to survive a lot of upfront damage to be really effective unlike amumu (who stalls long enough with his ult that he doesn't need to be as uber tanky) he basically needs to go for the most cost-effective items to boost his EHP.

I still get 1 heart of gold for early HP boost and for randuins later, but other than that...suggestions?

The problem extends further because the lack of heart of gold really forces him to cut back on potions which make sustainability a problem. I want to go double philo-stone on him which will let him roam forever but that will in turn make him too squishy. However, the net effect will probably be positive especially in soloQ, and you can sell your philostones for tank item after you used them to pad your early game.

How is Aegis not cost-effective enough for Rammus on himself when the self-stats are more cost-effective than virtually every other option? Even without considering the benefit on allies, you get more EHP per gold from Aegis than BVeil, Sunfire, FoN, GA, etc.

Kobe has been getting fast Aegis on Rammus since well before the HoG nerf (though obviously getting one HoG first). It's viability as an item on Rammus should not be questionable at all.
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spinesheath
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany8679 Posts
April 18 2011 08:03 GMT
#75
Aegis definitely is good on Rammus.

Other than that... you want HP because you get Armor/Mres from DBC. Get Warmogs. It seems it got stealth buffed to charge from assists now (10% of max charge per assist), which means that Rammus should fill it up really quickly.
If you have a good reason to disagree with the above, please tell me. Thank you.
Zato-1
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Chile4253 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-18 11:34:59
April 18 2011 11:29 GMT
#76
On April 18 2011 17:03 spinesheath wrote:
Other than that... you want HP because you get Armor/Mres from DBC.

This is true enough. Rammus' base HP and health gain per level are lowish; coupled with the huge amounts of armor/mres you get from DBC, getting a lot of health from items is very important on him. I don't much like Aegis on Rammus, because

a) It only gives 270 HP for 1925g
b) There are better options:
On April 18 2011 16:26 JackDino wrote:
Sunfire Sunfire Sunfire Sunfire Sunfire Sunfire, pop W and you don't die.


Getting an early Sunfire is pretty huge on Rammus- helps your survivability vs. enemy champions, boosts your jungling (you'll be jungling less at this point in the game, but it lets you stay out of the enemy's minimap while giving you some exp and gold, and your jungling speed at this point is pretty bad w/o a Sunfire), lets you clear creepwaves quickly, and makes your Powerball/Taunt/Tremors combo deadlier- enemies usually underestimate the pretty crazy amount of DPS Rammus is capable of once he hits lvl 11 for the second rank in Tremors + Sunfire damage.

I don't like HoG, Randuin's or Aegis on Rammus; as to the latter two, they're much, much better on a tank who can stay protecting his squishies 24/7 like Shen, less so on a tank who rushes into the enemy team. As to mana regen, if you have mana regen yellows you're set; Catalyst might make more sense if you're instead taking armor seals to make space for flat Health quints though.
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Juicyfruit
Profile Joined May 2008
Canada5484 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-18 16:12:15
April 18 2011 16:10 GMT
#77
Sunfire is a pretty good item to rush if you pull off early ganks. Otherwise, I don't realistically forsee jungle rammus getting enough gold for giant's belt without stockpiling money which is never good.

If you don't get sunfire early it's a pretty bad item unless you're up against at least 3 squishy champs and no good support, which never happens. There's really no point in making sunfire if you get constantly headbutted off the carry as soon as you powerball up to him.

Randuin is still a really sexy item for rammus because of how good that active is when DBC is activated, and how that passive slow on randuin syngergizes with taunt. Rammus really does need that extra slow because his ability to defend his carries is pretty shitty otherwise.
Misder
Profile Joined October 2009
United States1557 Posts
April 25 2011 01:40 GMT
#78
I find it hard to fit Warmog's in where it's early enough to actually matter. Maybe its something with my build.
I go cloth+5pots->HoG->HoG(if I'm down because of counterjungling/failing at ganks)->Aegis->Merc's->Sunfire/Banshees/FoN
By that time, it's already 30 mins into the game... Is Warmog's worth rushing then?

Also, I find Sunfire good always cause it synergizes with everything; armor for the extra dmg, hp with W, extra dmg with taunt/ult.
Whaaaa?
Zato-1
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Chile4253 Posts
April 25 2011 02:00 GMT
#79
On April 25 2011 10:40 Misder wrote:
I find it hard to fit Warmog's in where it's early enough to actually matter. Maybe its something with my build.
I go cloth+5pots->HoG->HoG(if I'm down because of counterjungling/failing at ganks)->Aegis->Merc's->Sunfire/Banshees/FoN
By that time, it's already 30 mins into the game... Is Warmog's worth rushing then?

As far as tankiness goes, you want a good balance between Armor, MRes and HP, assuming the enemy team has a good mix of Physical and Magical damage. I like to get an early sunfire because all the stats it gives are nice, especially the damage aura if you get it early enough; then I get a Negatron to bring up my MRes up to speed, build it into a FoN, and by level 18 that'll translate into 150 Armor and MRes roughly (assuming merc treads)- more than enough. At this point, I really like Warmog's as my next item, because:

a) DBC gives you a ton more Armor / Mres
b) Lategame, anyone who's a threat to you will probably have Last Whisper / Void Staff- these items make you want to get less Armor / MRes, and more HP.

I'll make a graph to illustrate why getting HP is great at this point when I finish watching yesterday's TSL VODs.
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Juicyfruit
Profile Joined May 2008
Canada5484 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-25 03:25:26
April 25 2011 03:25 GMT
#80
I have come to the conclusion that rammus just sucks and that the only time you can be expected to do good sorta-good is when their team is loaded on physical damage.
Zato-1
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Chile4253 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-04-25 03:58:50
April 25 2011 03:41 GMT
#81
Ok, so. This is why you want to maintain a balanced level of Armor, MRes and Health.

First graph shows the efficiency of spending gold on Health items vs. spending gold on Armor items, in terms of boosting your Effective Health (EHP):
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

As you can see, the more Armor you have, the greater the efficiency of buying Health relative to Armor, for a given value of Health.
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

This second graph is much like the previous one, but with a higher Health value. The efficiency of buying Health instead of Armor is lower for all armor values, but it still increases as you add more armor.

Next, graphs showing the opposite situation- the Armor value is a given, and we see how efficient it is to spend gold on Armor items in terms of boosting EHP, compared to spending gold on Health items:
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

As expected, the more Health you have, the more efficient additional Armor is relative to additional Health.
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

Same graph as above, but with a higher static Armor value which means lower efficiency for gold on Armor compared to gold on Health, for all Health values.

Obviously, all the above analysis also applies to Health vs. MRes. As long as the efficiency of buying Health instead of Armor is greater than 1, you want to buy Health; as long as the efficiency of buying Health instead of Armor is lower than 1, you want to spend your money on Armor to maximize your EHP vs. Physical damage.

Now, I'm gonna assume you care about EHP vs. physical damage as much as EHP vs. magical damage, that you have 300 Armor and MRes (150 of each + DBC on), and that your enemies have Void Staff / Last Whisper as appropriate. This is the efficiency comparison:
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

This graph shows the efficiency of spending your gold on Health vs. splitting it 50/50 on Armor and MRes- in this kinda situation, you can see how buying Health items is super efficient which means Warmog's is jawesome.

TL;DR: Warmog's is an amazing endgame item especially on someone with Armor / MRes steroids like Rammus, and also especially vs. opponents with Last Whisper / Void Staff where appropriate. I wouldn't get it early on in the game, despite the stacks on its health and health regen from kills.

Gold efficiency uses the cost and bonus values of Cloth Armor and Ruby Crystal as baseline.
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Shawngood
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany473 Posts
May 22 2011 22:08 GMT
#82
Watching HSGG's stream... AP Rammus anyone? 1:1 AP ratio on Q, .3 ratio on R (over 8 seconds duration) and there still seems to be a (now hidden) AP ratio on his W as well..?
@ESL_Shawn
Zato-1
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Chile4253 Posts
May 23 2011 01:16 GMT
#83
On May 23 2011 07:08 Shawngood wrote:
Watching HSGG's stream... AP Rammus anyone? 1:1 AP ratio on Q, .3 ratio on R (over 8 seconds duration) and there still seems to be a (now hidden) AP ratio on his W as well..?

Well, I can confirm that there is indeed a hidden .25 AP ratio on the damage return component of Rammus' DBC, which doesn't show on the tooltip.

As to the effectiveness of an AP Rammus build, I haven't actually tried it in a game against human opponents, but I don't have very high expectations of it.
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StuffedTurkey
Profile Joined May 2010
United States859 Posts
May 23 2011 02:23 GMT
#84
On May 23 2011 10:16 Zato-1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 23 2011 07:08 Shawngood wrote:
Watching HSGG's stream... AP Rammus anyone? 1:1 AP ratio on Q, .3 ratio on R (over 8 seconds duration) and there still seems to be a (now hidden) AP ratio on his W as well..?

Well, I can confirm that there is indeed a hidden .25 AP ratio on the damage return component of Rammus' DBC, which doesn't show on the tooltip.

As to the effectiveness of an AP Rammus build, I haven't actually tried it in a game against human opponents, but I don't have very high expectations of it.

I haven't done AP rammus recently but it used to be one of my fun trolls that had deceptively higher damage than people expected
You can't milk those!
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11766 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-24 11:04:58
July 20 2011 19:22 GMT
#85
Jungle Rammus:
Smite + Flash, 1/21/8 (exp mastery), armor runes.

Cloth +5 pots + DBC, Golem -> level 2 PBall gank if top is gankable (slows you by ~20 seconds), can catch some ppl off and force a flash and the quick damage can lead to a fucked up lane, but again it slows you so risky. Only do if it's a guaranteed dividend.

Pball + DBC wolf.

Gank mid.

Rest of the route remains fairly standard, although he can clear red buff as well without losing too much hp. Gank bot if desired, else buy razor and go back to jungle + ganking.

Razor -> Wriggles -> Boots -> Abyssal -> stack HP somehow

Depending on their comp you can sneak in a HoG before Abyssal and so you'll have a belated but decent g10.

The wriggles is critical for maintaining jungle speed, and also gives you hilariously high base AD without DBC.

R>Q=E>W; level Q and E as needed - higher Q = stronger instant stun and faster jungle, W is a stronger disable but is only useful for ganks.

His biggest issue is mana management; if your team has a solid blue buff hero it may be worth investing in a Chalice just for the extra MR. With Wriggles mana becomes his only real concern...

Good items include Wriggles (core), Abyssal (core), Banshee, Thornmail, Guardian Angel, Rylai's, Hourglass, Warmog. Funfire is okay but not gold-efficient.

Edit:
He's a good example of a jungler that Riot hates, by the way. You can dick around and gank mid like 3 times at level 2 and still clear as fast as a Warwick.
oraoraoraoraoraoraoraora
Zato-1
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Chile4253 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-20 20:51:23
July 20 2011 20:22 GMT
#86
On July 21 2011 04:22 Southlight wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Jungle Rammus:
Smite + Flash, 1/21/8 (exp mastery), armor runes.

Cloth +5 pots + DBC, Golem -> level 2 PBall gank if top is gankable (slows you by ~20 seconds), can catch some ppl off and force a flash and the quick damage can lead to a fucked up lane, but again it slows you so risky. Only do if it's a guaranteed dividend.

Pball + DBC wolf.

Gank mid.

Rest of the route remains fairly standard, although he can clear red buff as well without losing too much hp. Gank bot if desired, else buy razor and go back to jungle + ganking.

Razor -> Wriggles -> Boots -> Abyssal -> stack HP somehow

Depending on their comp you can sneak in a HoG before Abyssal and so you'll have a belated but decent g10.

The wriggles is critical for maintaining jungle speed, and also gives you hilariously high base AD without DBC.

R>Q=W>E; level Q and W as needed - higher Q = stronger instant stun and faster jungle, W is a stronger disable but is only useful for ganks.

His biggest issue is mana management; if your team has a solid blue buff hero it may be worth investing in a Chalice just for the extra MR. With Wriggles mana becomes his only real concern...

Good items include Wriggles (core), Abyssal (core), Banshee, Thornmail, Guardian Angel, Rylai's, Hourglass, Warmog. Funfire is okay but not gold-efficient.

Edit:
He's a good example of a jungler that Riot hates, by the way. You can dick around and gank mid like 3 times at level 2 and still clear as fast as a Warwick.

I have a few problems with this guide:

*I feel that levelling Taunt last is really crippling for your ganking and teamfight capabilities, and I don't see a very good tradeoff in having more damage for your Powerball in exchange for that.

*I don't like Wriggle's on Rammus. Right now, because EXP and gold from minions increases as time goes on, but exp and gold from jungle monsters doesn't, there's a point in the game beyond which all the small jungle camps (small golems, wolves and wraiths) become super-low priority, and aren't worth doing unless there's literally nothing else to do. At that point, Wriggle's feels like a pretty bad item for Rammus because the AD and Lifesteal are wasted stats vs. champions, and the proc isn't as useful for Rammus (who relies significantly on spell damage to clear the jungle) as it is for champions who get more attack speed (from attack speed items, Hunter's Call, Tiger Stance, Battle Cry or Lee Sin's passive).

Still, you DO fall behind significantly in jungling speed later on if you have no damage items at all (which is one of the reasons why I'm such a strong proponent of Sunfire on Rammus), so I guess Wriggle's is acceptable if you don't have any other items to help you with clearing the jungle.

*Spending your first 4600g on items without any Health is problematic for a tank who gets tons of free armor and MRes but has pretty bad Health/level growth.

*If you hit Q -> R and manage to hit all 8 damage waves from Tremors, your "spell combo" has a total AP ratio of 3.4 over 8 seconds. To equate the damage a Sunfire would deal in those 8 seconds (280), you'd need 82 AP, roughly 1600g, where the upgrade cost of a Sunfire is only 800g (and provides the damage always, not just when hitting things with Powerball + Tremors); the tanking stats pay for themselves. If you like other items instead of Sunfire that's fine, but calling it "not gold-efficient" when you're getting damage from far more inefficient sources (AP) is misleading.

I have no idea what kind of playstyle you have with Rammus, but I swear that if a new user had posted this Rammus build, I'd have called him a troll.
Go here http://vina.biobiochile.cl/ and input the Konami Code (up up down down left right left right B A)
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11766 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-20 20:42:56
July 20 2011 20:41 GMT
#87
800 gold for a PBAoE stat is not gold efficient unless you're buying it for the damage. This is especially if you run the armor page + wriggles, as you're essentially buying Giant's Belt for 2500 gold.

Red buff Rammus just hits people to death, with Wriggles he ends up with something like 150AD without DBC bonus, which is higher than the majority of champs at that stage in the game. He literally just hits people down 1v1. For all intents and purposes his farming "post-jungle-phase" (if you wanna call it that) is terrible too, because it's hard to get whole creep waves to attack you, so you either have to aa them to death after PBall, or Tremors them, which despite its low cooldown isn't ideal. Wriggles speeds shit up. It's also good for sneaking in a neutral camp kill, and is also good for dragoning and to an extent baron.

Most people won't let you use DBC in a timely fashion if you initiate using Q, because of its nasty cast time. Oftentimes people will abuse it and simply chainlock you upon Q->E (or even just after Q), causing you to get hammered pre-DBC. To that end I find DBC highly overrated in a teamfight for some time, and is why I always shore up my base defenses first. With armor runes and Wriggles you hit over 130 base armor really easily. With Treads and Abyssal you also hit over 130 MR. This leaves you at a base of 130/130ish without DBC and all you have to do is find a way to get HP after that, which is relatively easy. As a bonus, Abyssal is an awesome item, especially on Rammus.

If you get Thornmail then your AD rockets up to around 190. You can very easily and comfortably literally just hit people to death, especially if people decide to ignore you because you're a "tank."
oraoraoraoraoraoraoraora
spinesheath
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany8679 Posts
July 20 2011 20:51 GMT
#88
Wriggles on Rammus? People actually do that now? Or just you Southlight?

I always liked Wriggles -> Zeal Rammus best (followed by whatever, typically tanky stuff). It's awesome.
If you have a good reason to disagree with the above, please tell me. Thank you.
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11766 Posts
July 20 2011 20:52 GMT
#89
It's me, but Turkey and I are in agreement that Jammus should be doing it in general.
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De4ngus
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States6533 Posts
July 20 2011 20:58 GMT
#90
I actually get razor and eventually turn it into mbr... o.o
GANDHISAUCE
Zato-1
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Chile4253 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-20 21:21:40
July 20 2011 21:20 GMT
#91
On July 21 2011 05:41 Southlight wrote:
800 gold for a PBAoE stat is not gold efficient unless you're buying it for the damage. (...) As a bonus, Abyssal is an awesome item, especially on Rammus.

Yes, the damage aura on Sunfire is one of the reasons why I like the item on Rammus. It is, as I said, more efficient for buying damage on Rammus than getting AP from items, both for teamfights and (especially) for farming.

Also, while Rammus can indeed autoattack people to death if they let him (in a teamfight)/can't stop him from doing it (in a gank), losing out on a big chunk of Rammus' teamfight utility (3 second CC) throughout midgame is still pretty crippling to the champion, IMO.

Linking to your build on the OP.
Go here http://vina.biobiochile.cl/ and input the Konami Code (up up down down left right left right B A)
Zato-1
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Chile4253 Posts
July 20 2011 22:49 GMT
#92
So, I've been trying out a gold/10 item rush on Rammus, like our new resident banling suggested; it's now part of the OP, under the red title "How to build Gold/10 items on Rammus". I have nowhere near as much experience with the build as I do with the "classical" Cloth Armor +5 pots build, but I'll test it more over the coming days and let you know my findings (and likely clean up the OP into something more elegant, I just added in a chunk of new text without editing anything else).
Go here http://vina.biobiochile.cl/ and input the Konami Code (up up down down left right left right B A)
Seuss
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States10536 Posts
July 20 2011 23:32 GMT
#93
Philo Stone is ridiculously good on Jungle Rammus whether you are rushing it or wait until after boots. I've been running 1/12/17 with an Armor Quint/Mark/Seal MR Glyph page, and both health and mana cease to be issues the moment it's finished.

I tried it because I thought, "Hey, Leona rushes Philo + Hog since her farm sucks and Eclipse makes her invincible, wonder if that would work on Rammus." It's shockingly good.
"I am not able to carry all this people alone, for they are too heavy for me." -Moses (Numbers 11:14)
Craton
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States17236 Posts
July 21 2011 09:44 GMT
#94
I just do the standard rejuv + 1 pot clear, and get philo hog boots. Sort of varies from there -- I like Aegis as a good 4th item.
twitch.tv/cratonz
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11766 Posts
July 24 2011 11:04 GMT
#95
I just realized that I mixed up W and E, didn't I. I meant Ball and Taunt are equal, and that DBC is the most useless of his skills >_>
oraoraoraoraoraoraoraora
marxgarza
Profile Joined January 2011
United States373 Posts
September 07 2011 11:35 GMT
#96
I just played the best 2 games of my short time of LoL with Rammus and I was able to go 35-2-37. He is quickly becoming my favorite hero to use.
Silence is golden, duct tape is silver
r.Evo
Profile Joined August 2006
Germany14080 Posts
September 07 2011 13:34 GMT
#97
Just adding this real quick since the thread just got bumped anyway:

LoCicero said a few days ago on stream that rammus is completely fine, IF people build wriggles on him. +1 for Southlights build. =P
"We don't make mistakes here, we call it happy little accidents." ~Bob Ross
NightWalks
Profile Joined May 2011
Latvia252 Posts
September 07 2011 14:05 GMT
#98
LoCicero said a few days ago on stream that rammus is completely fine


By fine he means that he is viable in high elo ?
As i can't understand why ppl considere him meh .... he jungles well and secures gank kills like a boss with q + flash + E
LoL making ppl rage since 2010
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-07 14:47:40
September 07 2011 14:45 GMT
#99
Rammus is weak. He relys on people underestimating his ganks and getting kills early. He jungles slow after the first clear and has trouble farming fast and if he gets set back he's generally useless because he can't really tank that well and he doesn't have that good CC.

If you have a decent tanky dps solo top like standard example irelia rammus is just a terrible pick.
He's way worse in teamfights that amumu. Amumus Q is like a flash and rammus' Q is like a ghost. Except amumu has more damage and better cc. He also farms faster even though he's a little less naturally tanky.
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11766 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-07 14:53:20
September 07 2011 14:52 GMT
#100
His jungle's pretty fast once you get razor/wriggles. The very threat of his gank is good because (although it got nerfed) it's still hard to escape him when he's rolling him even with ward coverage. His CC isn't great but he outputs ridiculous damage for a hero that hard to kill.

Rammus' ult does as much as Fiddle's ult if you keep people in it. That's on top of base damage that reaches ~200 fairly easily, + DCB on taunt damage. He hammers people.
oraoraoraoraoraoraoraora
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
September 07 2011 15:06 GMT
#101
Meh, you can't compare rammus ult to fiddle. Fiddles is much faster, he has a free flash on cast, has a much bigger radius and buikds AP.
Rammus is going to have a hard time getting his taunt on the carries and thus getting in range to ult them. His sustained damage is okay but he doesn't have the burst and mobility to be good enough. I still maintain he;s one of the weakest junglers that aren't troll picks.
He's much better in solo queue where the picking people off thing is much easier and thats what rammus excels at.
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11766 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-07 15:18:22
September 07 2011 15:17 GMT
#102
He doesn't need burst, he literally smacks people down like Warwick. And his taunt really works on anything, you don't NEED to taunt ranged AD. He plays very much like Warwick, except with a nice chaser, a disable on lower CD, and a giant AoE.

Edit:
People don't play him because he's hard and because like Shaco he's reliant on a monster early game to offset his bad mid-game. But he's one of the most wicked early and late-game junglers. And you can rag about solo q all you want but until you're elite-tier 5rank he's perfectly viable.
oraoraoraoraoraoraoraora
arnath
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1317 Posts
September 07 2011 15:36 GMT
#103
Why is Rammus' late-game awesome? I don't disagree that he's really good and probably the best early game ganker but I feel like he doesn't scale very well.
spinesheath
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany8679 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-07 16:34:57
September 07 2011 16:33 GMT
#104
Rammus gets a ton of free defenses and then also some AD on top of that. Lategame with say Wriggle's Atmogs Triforce he is a monster. And since you kinda rely on the ranged AD to kill him but DBC just kills the ranged AD instead you are forced to drop your magic damage on him while the ranged AD still can't target anyone else.

Guess I could play him again now that my build isn't considered troll anymore...
If you have a good reason to disagree with the above, please tell me. Thank you.
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11766 Posts
September 07 2011 16:38 GMT
#105
lol, yeah, basically he has one of the highest tanking abilities of all heroes, one of the highest base damage outputs of tanks (even trumps Amumu when given comparable EHP), and can solo takedown most heroes. His mid-game blows though because his initiate makes him take too much damage (the delay between pball and dbc activation really hurts). But once he gets his farm he's like a god.
oraoraoraoraoraoraoraora
spinesheath
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany8679 Posts
September 07 2011 16:54 GMT
#106
I wouldn't try to initiate midgame as Rammus, and instead peel for your carries. Midgame fights have too much burst damage for jungle Rammus to be in the middle of everything.
Getting the transitions between the different playstyles right can be tricky though.
If you have a good reason to disagree with the above, please tell me. Thank you.
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11766 Posts
September 07 2011 17:02 GMT
#107
Indeed. As said, he's hard, and his midgame sucks. He can peel, but it's temporary, and the rest of his effect on fights must come from his damage, but his level 2 ult isn't that great (and midgame it's hard to even get to that level 2 ult), so yeah.
oraoraoraoraoraoraoraora
NightWalks
Profile Joined May 2011
Latvia252 Posts
September 08 2011 06:27 GMT
#108
I spend most of mid game walking arround with ranged ad taking poking down towers .
Skills WQWEEEEEWW.... Buy Giants belt -> W -> R -> Tank tower while range AD pew pew then retreat if to many enemy aprouches. Rinse and repeat .

I haven't taken razor on Rammus so far ( will try run some game ) , but he clears reasonably fast for me . Only times i wish i could kill faster is when atempting dragon or trying to steel enemy blue . I opt to build Aegis from cloth as i spend moust of time ganking and trying to create advantage for my 4x peeps so they can roll midgame while i provide meatshield + CC where after Aegis i pick up belt to make W baller .

I find ramus great when it comes to stoping fed champs like Katarina or Fiddle aka all champs that deal massive aoe dmg , but have to get close to enemy team to max out dps .
Example : Kat shumpo in to R. Rammus Q flash her to stop ult and avoid colision with other shit then E for 3 seconds so your team bursts her down . Activate R W to add your own dmg contribution.
LoL making ppl rage since 2010
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11766 Posts
September 08 2011 09:50 GMT
#109
Rammus' first run is notoriously speedy (he ploughs through minicreep) but his second run on buff creep is just as notorious slow... which is why Razor and then Wriggle (so that he doesn't lose hp) is really nice. This keeps him among the top clear speeds and allows for really good counterjungling, as well as giving him ridiculous base combat prowess, such that he rarely, rarely loses to people 1v1, especially ranged AD. Rammus with Wriggles beats a ranged AD with BF Sword straight up basically, without even using his ult.
oraoraoraoraoraoraoraora
icemanzdoinwork
Profile Joined August 2010
447 Posts
September 09 2011 07:55 GMT
#110
I'm enjoying the dps rammus.

I go

4 arp reds/5 as reds/9 armor yellow/9 as blues/3 armor quints

11-3-16
Armpen/Armor/movespeed/flash/gold

Cloth +5
Wriggles>Boots>Zeal>Mercs>Belt>Negatron+Armor>Atmas>Fon and Frozen Mallet>Phantom Dancer

Start blue or Double Golems for lvl 2 gank

Mid game is weak until you can get belt. Once you get negatron+atmas you're terrifying again.

Late game is just wonderful. No one escapes and if you take the burst or cc, you did your job (and probably still alive.)

I'm going to try ram with cho top. I think that could be a nice combo for duo Q.

CrisisNOOB
Profile Joined May 2011
United States39 Posts
September 23 2011 02:44 GMT
#111
Rammus shines a lot better in Dominion. Great Champ and I get 1st place many times with him
NOOB is allcaps cuz it's srsbsns
Craton
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States17236 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-23 05:23:49
September 23 2011 05:23 GMT
#112
Rammus should not always go mercs. Ninja Tabi are an excellent boot for him, especially with Eleisa's Miracle giving so much regen + 35 tenacity. I've been favoring this a lot lately. It's very common to have 2-3 auto-attack heavy champs on the enemy team.
twitch.tv/cratonz
Jerubaal
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States7684 Posts
September 23 2011 21:31 GMT
#113
I have to say, his taunt is one of the more hilarious things in the game, especially to keep several enemies together. Two bad guys running in opposite directions? Taunt one, pop powerball at the other. It sucks for Tryndamere to pop Undying Rage only to be taunt-pulled back into the enemy group.
I'm not stupid, a marauder just shot my brain.
Tooplark
Profile Joined October 2008
United States3977 Posts
September 23 2011 21:50 GMT
#114
Rylai Rammus so fun. He does pretty well with ap and ad items... I SMELL A GUNBLADE
WHAT POW'R ART THOU WHO FROM BELOW HAST MADE ME RISE UNWILLINGLY AND SLOW
Alay
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States660 Posts
September 27 2011 19:21 GMT
#115
I can't decide if I like Wriggles opening or Catalyst -> Veil opening on Rammus for jungle. Wriggles just makes the jungle so much easier and efficient, the free ward is good too, but the veil ends up being better for mid-game.
freelander
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
Hungary4707 Posts
September 27 2011 19:58 GMT
#116
On September 24 2011 06:31 Jerubaal wrote:
I have to say, his taunt is one of the more hilarious things in the game, especially to keep several enemies together. Two bad guys running in opposite directions? Taunt one, pop powerball at the other. It sucks for Tryndamere to pop Undying Rage only to be taunt-pulled back into the enemy group.


well dodge is counterintuitive on him because he reflects damage
And all is illuminated.
Seuss
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States10536 Posts
September 27 2011 20:19 GMT
#117
On September 28 2011 04:21 Alay wrote:
I can't decide if I like Wriggles opening or Catalyst -> Veil opening on Rammus for jungle. Wriggles just makes the jungle so much easier and efficient, the free ward is good too, but the veil ends up being better for mid-game.


Wriggle's is hands down better. You clear the jungle faster, which means more time spent counter-jungling (more gold/exp) or more time spent ganking/counter-ganking. It also means less money spent on wards (you are warding with a Catalyst -> Veil build, right?).

Also, Banshee's Veil is 1.1k more gold than Wriggle's, so you need to compare Wriggle's + Negatron/Catalyst/whatever else you want to build versus a completed Veil.
"I am not able to carry all this people alone, for they are too heavy for me." -Moses (Numbers 11:14)
Juicyfruit
Profile Joined May 2008
Canada5484 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-27 20:33:02
September 27 2011 20:30 GMT
#118
lol I just get a philo stone and chug blue potions, when I have to, while building up HP. Wolves and wraiths take no time at all to kill with or without wriggles, and twin golems usually get smited. I usually end up using my ultimate to kill red/blue if I'm in a hurry -_-

I dislike getting wriggles on rammus just because it screws up his EHP too much since that's 1600 worth of HP you aren't getting, but if you get ganks off early on, it would be a good investment just for the ability to counterjungle the enemy. If I don't get a kill by level 6, I wouldn't think about wriggles.
Seuss
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States10536 Posts
September 27 2011 22:04 GMT
#119
I like Wriggle's because without it you have no buff/dragon control as Rammus. Free wards are always awesome.

I also find building pure health to be awkward. Unless you're building to cap CDR or hog blue buff you have very lengthy periods where you aren't in DBC, during which you're vulnerable. Even with capped CDR you have nearly two and a half seconds of vulnerability. Saying Wriggle's is 1600g of HP you aren't getting is a little disingenuous as your build already spends 800g on a Philo Stone (which also isn't HP).
"I am not able to carry all this people alone, for they are too heavy for me." -Moses (Numbers 11:14)
sylverfyre
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8298 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-27 22:15:08
September 27 2011 22:14 GMT
#120
I find that since +HP defensive items like sunfire, banshee, aegis, warmogs are so good on Rammus (+HP synergizes with his W exceptionally well), Atma's Impaler is a nice way of rounding out my item list, giving some further armor while significantly boosting damage output. Typically a late game item, but you can often afford it since rammus is quick to get to a sidelane that has a big creep wave built up to clear it with W or R before it does damage to the tower.
UniversalSnip
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
9871 Posts
September 29 2011 07:09 GMT
#121
tried out a different mastery setup/build, went 21/0/9, attack speed red, ad quints, armor yellow, mr blue. It was smoother, safer and faster in the jungle than the standard defensive style. Build was like wriggles, aegis, sorc boots, giant's belt, reverie... then I picked up abyssal and sunfire. Aegis is a really good early pickup on him because it's hard to get a balance of defensive stats after dropping 1600 on wriggles without cluttering your inventory hopelessly.
"How fucking dare you defile the sanctity of DotA with your fucking casual plebian terminology? May the curse of Gaben and Volvo be upon you. le filthy casual."
Craton
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States17236 Posts
September 29 2011 09:02 GMT
#122
sunfire + thornmail + w is a thoroughly amusing way to clear creeps
twitch.tv/cratonz
Juicyfruit
Profile Joined May 2008
Canada5484 Posts
October 10 2011 03:38 GMT
#123
Wriggles + Wit's End rammus best rammus build.
Zato-1
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Chile4253 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-14 12:24:53
October 14 2011 12:20 GMT
#124
So, I'm gonna update the OP pretty significantly in terms of Rammus' role and recommended items. Back in the day, the quintessential jungler was Nunu- an early game ganking and counterjungling powerhouse who filled a tanky-support role later on. Nowadays, a lot of the more successful junglers overall are champions like Lee Sin, Gangplank, Nocturne and Fiddlesticks- champions that can dish out pretty significant damage in skirmishes and teamfights.

Not only has the jungler metagame shifted, but the tank meta has changed as well. Put simply, tanks that deal no damage scale really badly into the lategame; you don't want to be a Leona, you want to be more like a Cho'gath or Singed who is tough and has CC, but also contributes with damage. You lose some survivability from buying damage or hybrid items instead of building pure tank, but you'll gain more gold by virtue of being able to kill things faster so you'll be able to buy more stuff anyway; and besides, in teamfights it is preferable to be pretty tanky but still a threat, versus being really tanky but much easier to ignore.

Suffice to say, my "Sunfire into pure tanky" Rammus build is obsolete (not even I build Rammus like that anymore), and I'll take the time to apologize to Utahime since the start of any Rammus build now should be a Wriggle's Lantern, as he said it was several months ago.

I haven't updated the OP yet, because I'd like feedback on how you guys think Rammus should be built before I do that. Right now, I'm partial to physical DPS items in the form of Atma's + either Frozen Mallet or Warmog's, an MR item (Banshee's or FoN, although I'll admit I haven't given Abyssal Scepter much of a chance), and I'm not sure about a sixth item... Thornmail? Phantom Dancer? Warmog's, if you got a FM earlier on? Please do share your thoughts and reasoning
Go here http://vina.biobiochile.cl/ and input the Konami Code (up up down down left right left right B A)
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
October 14 2011 12:59 GMT
#125
I've just been playing rammus like a bruiser. Wriggles, Mercs, heart of gold optional, warmogs, atmogs.

I get PD in there, I understand southlight likes abyssal, it all works.

I don't like rammus as an initiator. Building him classically with full tank lets him do it slightly better but even still he gets poked and has weak initiate. I like him more in general fights say at dragon or whatever when you can just run up to an AP or AD and taunt+W+R and own them really hard.

Atmog+PD rammus can crush an AD carry in 3 seconds with ulti up and they can't get away without a lot of help from the team because of the PD movement speed and powerball combined.
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
October 14 2011 13:01 GMT
#126
On October 14 2011 21:59 Slayer91 wrote:
I've just been playing rammus like a bruiser. Wriggles, Mercs, heart of gold optional, warmogs, atmogs.

I get PD in there, I understand southlight likes abyssal, it all works.

I don't like rammus as an initiator. Building him classically with full tank lets him do it slightly better but even still he gets poked and has weak initiate. I like him more in general fights say at dragon or whatever when you can just run up to an AP or AD and taunt+W+R and own them really hard.

Atmog+PD rammus can crush an AD carry in 3 seconds with ulti up and they can't get away without a lot of help from the team because of the PD movement speed and powerball combined.


Sunfire is a pretty bad item. Damage wise attack speed//crit works a lot better if you can stay in range a long time. For farming jungle wriggles works better. If you want the giants belt make it a warmogs, convert the chain mail to atmas later. Rammus doesn't need the resistance stats that much though because of W.
Seuss
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States10536 Posts
October 14 2011 15:41 GMT
#127
I think you hit quote instead of edit.

I disagree that Sunfire Cape is a bad item. It's not amazing, but it's certainly decent. My reasoning:
  • Sunfire Cape is 400g cheaper than Warmog's.
  • Sunfire Cape provides more damage than Warmog's. Warmog's (fully stacked) + Atma's is 27.4 AD. Sunfire Cape + Atma's is 20.25 AD + 35 magic damage per second. Even with 100% crit and 2.5s attack speed the 7.15 AD difference only adds up to 35.75 damage per second and only on a single target.
  • Sunfire Cape's damage comes in increments and doesn't require another item. You get 11.25 AD the moment you buy the Chain Vest, the aura when you complete it, and 9 more when Atma's is finished.
  • Sunfire Cape doesn't pressure the player to finish it early. That's not to say that Warmog's requires one to finish it ASAP, but there are definitive benefits to doing so which weigh on the mind.
  • Sunfire Cape helps provide defense for when W isn't up. Unless you're planning on buying CDR items there's going to be substantial DBC downtime during which you're vulnerable if you neglect Armor/Resistance.


I'm not arguing that Sunfire is a better choice than Warmog's. That's a fairly subjective and difficult argument, and in many circumstances just outright wrong (I mean, 1.4k health from a single item, do want). However, I am arguing that Sunfire cape is at least decent.
"I am not able to carry all this people alone, for they are too heavy for me." -Moses (Numbers 11:14)
Craton
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States17236 Posts
October 14 2011 15:42 GMT
#128
Sunfire is still one of the best items on Rammus hands down. Calling it bad is just ignorant.
twitch.tv/cratonz
Juicyfruit
Profile Joined May 2008
Canada5484 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-14 16:03:58
October 14 2011 16:01 GMT
#129
Atmogs takes too long to finish. Rammus doesn't really need to live past his first DBC. He just needs to do as much damage as he can within those 6 seconds, and since he's likely to be untouched during those 6 seconds he'll probably live beyond that, just long enough for his ultimate to finish. If he`s still alive after that, he`ll get a second taunt and powerball off. If he`s dead, then he just tanked a lot of damage, good job.

Phantom dancer is nice but it's truly an item that compliments atmogs and not very good on its own, as the movespeed alone means you are buying it to sustain your mobility throughout a whole teamfight whereas wit's end rammus, when you get it at least, fucks things up really fast at the start of a teamfight. Pretty much no one wants to be focusing DBC rammus, so that's 6 seconds of being either ignored or soaking up way more damage than the other team can afford to pump on you.

Sunfire is just kind of silly these days, l0l. I don't even like the stats, but it forces turret aggro on you when you don't want it, which is annoying in itself.
Zato-1
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Chile4253 Posts
October 14 2011 17:40 GMT
#130
On October 15 2011 00:42 Craton wrote:
Sunfire is still one of the best items on Rammus hands down. Calling it bad is just ignorant.

Sunfire gives a very immediate return on investment in terms of effectiveness, but scales badly into lategame. On the other hand, Atmog's takes very long to finish and in that long "transition" phase you'll be weaker than you would be if you'd bought other items (such as a Sunfire), but scales well into the lategame.

Still, if I have to choose between losing some midgame power or being complete deadweight lategame, I'd rather suffer the Atmog's transition most of the time.
Go here http://vina.biobiochile.cl/ and input the Konami Code (up up down down left right left right B A)
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-14 18:06:04
October 14 2011 17:58 GMT
#131
On October 15 2011 00:41 Seuss wrote:
I think you hit quote instead of edit.

I disagree that Sunfire Cape is a bad item. It's not amazing, but it's certainly decent. My reasoning:
  • Sunfire Cape is 400g cheaper than Warmog's.
  • Sunfire Cape provides more damage than Warmog's. Warmog's (fully stacked) + Atma's is 27.4 AD. Sunfire Cape + Atma's is 20.25 AD + 35 magic damage per second. Even with 100% crit and 2.5s attack speed the 7.15 AD difference only adds up to 35.75 damage per second and only on a single target.
  • Sunfire Cape's damage comes in increments and doesn't require another item. You get 11.25 AD the moment you buy the Chain Vest, the aura when you complete it, and 9 more when Atma's is finished.
  • Sunfire Cape doesn't pressure the player to finish it early. That's not to say that Warmog's requires one to finish it ASAP, but there are definitive benefits to doing so which weigh on the mind.
  • Sunfire Cape helps provide defense for when W isn't up. Unless you're planning on buying CDR items there's going to be substantial DBC downtime during which you're vulnerable if you neglect Armor/Resistance.


I'm not arguing that Sunfire is a better choice than Warmog's. That's a fairly subjective and difficult argument, and in many circumstances just outright wrong (I mean, 1.4k health from a single item, do want). However, I am arguing that Sunfire cape is at least decent.


Atmas provides like 60 damage just from the 2% not to mention the crit. It scales better with any other items because of the crit. Also, warmogs is cost effective for the health it gives with 0 charges, its vastly better than sunfire when stacked.

You're providing lots of points but it boils down to: Warmogs MUCH better with W up and still better with W down. Sunfire is like giants belt+chain mail+aoe damage where the AOE damage is very poor IMO.

I find it hard to believe sunfire is one of the best items on rammus that builds wriggles. It's amazing to farm jungle but I find an extra expensive and not very well scaling giants belt+chain vest hard to justify, especially when really I don't want anything but health for defense on rammus. A bit more is good but unnecessary.

Again, this is a bruiser style of rammus that dislikes initaiting except to catch people in a bad position, so damage taken in powerball should be very minimal and you activate your W as soon as you expect to take heavy damage and not before that.

If you really like sunfire in a wriggles build why not build giants belt and chain mail and just convert giants belt to warmogs later? People overrated the importance of getting it fast. It's cost effective without stacks. Just get it whenever you want, faster is better but its not necessarily bad to get it later.
Seuss
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States10536 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-14 18:12:53
October 14 2011 18:07 GMT
#132
I was assuming that you'd be buying Atma's whether you built Warmog's or Sunfire Cape. It's included the the calculations of Warmog's vs Sunfire damage.

I think Zato-1 summarized it nicely, though I don't think picking Sunfire means you'll be dead weight late game. Not as effective perhaps, but not worthless.

For reference, I initiate even in a bruiser style. Rammus is so ridiculously tanky with W whatever you build that there's no reason not to powerball/flash/taunt/ult/DBC into the middle of their team unless you're facing some crazy Cho + Olaf + Vayne team.

And again, I'm not saying Sunfire is the best option in all circumstances or even most, just that it's a viable option and not "bad". I use Warmog's very often myself.
"I am not able to carry all this people alone, for they are too heavy for me." -Moses (Numbers 11:14)
Ryuu314
Profile Joined October 2009
United States12679 Posts
October 14 2011 18:23 GMT
#133
Wat jungle route do u guys use?
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
October 14 2011 18:25 GMT
#134
The problem with initaiting is simply getting blocked by a chogath or galio or amumu or something and your team is too scared to go past them and the whole thing ends up being a mess since your initiate is too weak to justify your team taking a full galio ult to the face.
Seuss
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States10536 Posts
October 14 2011 18:45 GMT
#135
On October 15 2011 03:23 Ryuu314 wrote:
Wat jungle route do u guys use?




That's the basic route. You can also do Wolves/Wraiths/Golems first, or just do Golems -> Level 2 gank etc.

You don't actually need full/near-full armor runes to jungle, it's just faster/more fun that way.

On October 15 2011 03:25 Slayer91 wrote:
The problem with initaiting is simply getting blocked by a chogath or galio or amumu or something and your team is too scared to go past them and the whole thing ends up being a mess since your initiate is too weak to justify your team taking a full galio ult to the face.


So you just collided with and slowed/BVeil popped their initiation, and the enemy squishies have to choose between attacking Rammus or getting in range of Rammus to do anything. The only problem I see here is that your team is scared.
"I am not able to carry all this people alone, for they are too heavy for me." -Moses (Numbers 11:14)
Juicyfruit
Profile Joined May 2008
Canada5484 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-14 19:12:34
October 14 2011 19:10 GMT
#136
But it's the exact same for your team. Running in headfirst into the enemy tank means that your team would have to run past their tank to do anything as well, and rammus is slightly ahead of his team to begin with since he's initiating with powerball, he'll eat more free shots than the enemy tank before the teams clash. It's a net loss unless rammus is significantly tankier than the enemy tank (doesn't happen till late-late game or if he gets really fed).

If he can manage to circumvent the tank line then yeah rammus can 1v2 the enemy carry + support pretty damn long and do quite a bit of damage to boot.
Attakijing
Profile Joined June 2011
United States693 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-15 09:42:12
October 15 2011 09:36 GMT
#137
On October 15 2011 03:25 Slayer91 wrote:
The problem with initaiting is simply getting blocked by a chogath or galio or amumu or something and your team is too scared to go past them and the whole thing ends up being a mess since your initiate is too weak to justify your team taking a full galio ult to the face.
yeah this is true. playing rammus is more like playing an assassin. but that just means that when you show up to countergank they blew their CC and everything goes in your favor.
On October 15 2011 03:45 Seuss wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 15 2011 03:23 Ryuu314 wrote:
Wat jungle route do u guys use?

+ Show Spoiler +

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjV_2ngBqLw

That's the basic route. You can also do Wolves/Wraiths/Golems first, or just do Golems -> Level 2 gank etc.

You don't actually need full/near-full armor runes to jungle, it's just faster/more fun that way.

Show nested quote +
On October 15 2011 03:25 Slayer91 wrote:
The problem with initaiting is simply getting blocked by a chogath or galio or amumu or something and your team is too scared to go past them and the whole thing ends up being a mess since your initiate is too weak to justify your team taking a full galio ult to the face.


So you just collided with and slowed/BVeil popped their initiation, and the enemy squishies have to choose between attacking Rammus or getting in range of Rammus to do anything. The only problem I see here is that your team is scared.
this is a good point in theory but in practice i always find that when the enemy team sees a rammus coming in they are conditioned to freak the hell out and throw everything at him. you cant really get the jump on people unless you initiate with flash-powerball--which i think is a very underrated and awesome initiate. flash powerball gives you time to switch to W (as well as use E and R). W makes you a lot tankier, and then you actually want everyone to freak out and throw everything at you. when you slowly roll in and get stunned their AP carry gets all excited because he can do his full combo on you. then because you dont have DBC up and you built armor like an idiot you die instantly. in my experience.
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
October 15 2011 12:57 GMT
#138
That's based on the enemy team being bad though.
intotheheart
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada33091 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-15 13:52:43
October 15 2011 13:50 GMT
#139
Whoops, made a mistake. :S
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sylverfyre
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8298 Posts
October 15 2011 17:16 GMT
#140
On October 15 2011 02:58 Slayer91 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 15 2011 00:41 Seuss wrote:
I think you hit quote instead of edit.

I disagree that Sunfire Cape is a bad item. It's not amazing, but it's certainly decent. My reasoning:
  • Sunfire Cape is 400g cheaper than Warmog's.
  • Sunfire Cape provides more damage than Warmog's. Warmog's (fully stacked) + Atma's is 27.4 AD. Sunfire Cape + Atma's is 20.25 AD + 35 magic damage per second. Even with 100% crit and 2.5s attack speed the 7.15 AD difference only adds up to 35.75 damage per second and only on a single target.
  • Sunfire Cape's damage comes in increments and doesn't require another item. You get 11.25 AD the moment you buy the Chain Vest, the aura when you complete it, and 9 more when Atma's is finished.
  • Sunfire Cape doesn't pressure the player to finish it early. That's not to say that Warmog's requires one to finish it ASAP, but there are definitive benefits to doing so which weigh on the mind.
  • Sunfire Cape helps provide defense for when W isn't up. Unless you're planning on buying CDR items there's going to be substantial DBC downtime during which you're vulnerable if you neglect Armor/Resistance.


I'm not arguing that Sunfire is a better choice than Warmog's. That's a fairly subjective and difficult argument, and in many circumstances just outright wrong (I mean, 1.4k health from a single item, do want). However, I am arguing that Sunfire cape is at least decent.


Atmas provides like 60 damage just from the 2% not to mention the crit. It scales better with any other items because of the crit. Also, warmogs is cost effective for the health it gives with 0 charges, its vastly better than sunfire when stacked.

You're providing lots of points but it boils down to: Warmogs MUCH better with W up and still better with W down. Sunfire is like giants belt+chain mail+aoe damage where the AOE damage is very poor IMO.

I find it hard to believe sunfire is one of the best items on rammus that builds wriggles. It's amazing to farm jungle but I find an extra expensive and not very well scaling giants belt+chain vest hard to justify, especially when really I don't want anything but health for defense on rammus. A bit more is good but unnecessary.

Again, this is a bruiser style of rammus that dislikes initaiting except to catch people in a bad position, so damage taken in powerball should be very minimal and you activate your W as soon as you expect to take heavy damage and not before that.

If you really like sunfire in a wriggles build why not build giants belt and chain mail and just convert giants belt to warmogs later? People overrated the importance of getting it fast. It's cost effective without stacks. Just get it whenever you want, faster is better but its not necessarily bad to get it later.


Yeah... If you like sunfire for its HP and armor stats, why not just build the giant belt and the chainmail... and instead of paying 800g for a shitty 35DPS magic damage aura (which will do shit to champs because of enemy MR), build them into warmogs and atmas later, respectively?
Sponkz
Profile Joined May 2011
Denmark4564 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-23 12:35:00
October 22 2011 11:32 GMT
#141
21/0/9

Wriggles -> Tabi -> Aegis -> Banshee -> GG

Standard clear should be finshed at 3.30 or so, with a good leash. Roam like a boss and be happy you got singed ult with 5 second down time.

WQWE, R > E > W > Q

EDIT: New build that works on all junglers, even rammus. Wriggles -> Hog -> Force of atmogs -> GG
hi
Haasts
Profile Joined October 2011
New Zealand4445 Posts
October 30 2011 13:25 GMT
#142
On October 14 2011 21:20 Zato-1 wrote:
I haven't updated the OP yet, because I'd like feedback on how you guys think Rammus should be built before I do that.


How's this going, Zato? To consolidate for my own sake, there's been a bit of Rammus chatter in the Graves & Riven general discussion threads as well as the TL B thread. Apparently Smash has been streaming some Rammus games (haven't been around at the right time so no idea re: builds etc), and in this week's Dignitas vs SK Rampage King of the Hill, Jatt played Rammus in the first game, building Wriggles=>Warmogs, Merc Treads and had purchased a Negatron cloak when the game ended; Snoopeh used a similar build in game two.

Been mucking around with him this week running armor seals + quints, mres/level glyphs & attack speed marks; seems to work fairly consistently regardless of running 21/0/9, 0/21/9 or 1/13/16. I'll sporadically run into mana problems, especially if I'm donating the majority of blue buffs - not sure whether it's worth building a early Philo Stone, managing my mana better (less Powerballs in the jungle), or utilising some mana regen/level runes. Also, if you build a Philo Stone, how is Reverie on him? There are times I'd love to have a MS boost while still maintaining DBC if I'm at risk from serious AP burst on my way towards taunting an AD carry, etc.

Atmogs seems to work out really well on him if you get it built, but Rammus' existing mid-game lull is exacerbated by the building-Atmogs mid-game lull ... best to rush Warmogs after Wriggle's, or build some sort of HoG/Zeal/Wit's End/etc in the interim?
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TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
October 30 2011 16:10 GMT
#143
Saintvicious and Lapaka both use ArPen marks, Armor seals/quints, MR/lvl glyphs. Saint uses 1/13/16, while Lapaka uses 0/9/21. Both build Wriggle's->Aegis->Sunfire/Warmog/Atmas in some order.

Dan Dinh uses ArPen marks, Armor seals, MR/lvl glyphs, gp10 quints, and 0/21/9 masteries. He builds double gp5->Sunfire->Warmogs (but still starts cloth armor).
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asianskill
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States289 Posts
October 30 2011 16:47 GMT
#144
Been using Dan Dinh's cloth+5pots->philo.->tabi->HoG->Sunfire->Warmogs->FoN/Thornmail

Really like his build, other builds just don't have hp to make a difference in teamfights
herrro
HAL9OOO
Profile Joined January 2011
United States176 Posts
October 30 2011 19:27 GMT
#145
Honestly, I don't know if I am bad but doing 0/21/9, attackspeed reds, armor yellows, choice blues, armor quints and doing blue -> golems going wriggles mobility boots, zeal, pdancer or hog, atmas/warmogs seems so powerful. Maybe throw in a thornmail for extra lols 2 if they all physical. Wits end if minor magic dmg, DoubleNegatron/Fon If lots of magic. You just powerball, turn on your ult and taunt someone dbc they die.
TheKefka
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Croatia11752 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-30 19:37:17
October 30 2011 19:33 GMT
#146
On October 31 2011 01:10 TheYango wrote:
Saintvicious and Lapaka both use ArPen marks, Armor seals/quints, MR/lvl glyphs. Saint uses 1/13/16, while Lapaka uses 0/9/21. Both build Wriggle's->Aegis->Sunfire/Warmog/Atmas in some order.

Dan Dinh uses ArPen marks, Armor seals, MR/lvl glyphs, gp10 quints, and 0/21/9 masteries. He builds double gp5->Sunfire->Warmogs (but still starts cloth armor).

Are you sure about that? I heard Saint many times saying wrigglers is really not worth it on rammus and that he really doesn't like building it.
What I saw him build was starting with cloth armor/5pot-->philo stone-->if things are going really well boots and Hog,if not boots-->Aegis-->Shurleyas.
From than on he seems to prefer items with health(sunfire first) rather than just pure armor or magic ressist items and the reasoning being your W gives you insane amounts of armor anyways so health fits rammus perfectly.At least this is what I heard him say on his stream like few days ago.
Also yea I agree that attack speed marks are the way to go with rammus.
Cackle™
Sponkz
Profile Joined May 2011
Denmark4564 Posts
October 30 2011 20:11 GMT
#147
On October 31 2011 04:33 TheKefka wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2011 01:10 TheYango wrote:
Saintvicious and Lapaka both use ArPen marks, Armor seals/quints, MR/lvl glyphs. Saint uses 1/13/16, while Lapaka uses 0/9/21. Both build Wriggle's->Aegis->Sunfire/Warmog/Atmas in some order.

Dan Dinh uses ArPen marks, Armor seals, MR/lvl glyphs, gp10 quints, and 0/21/9 masteries. He builds double gp5->Sunfire->Warmogs (but still starts cloth armor).

Are you sure about that? I heard Saint many times saying wrigglers is really not worth it on rammus and that he really doesn't like building it.
What I saw him build was starting with cloth armor/5pot-->philo stone-->if things are going really well boots and Hog,if not boots-->Aegis-->Shurleyas.
From than on he seems to prefer items with health(sunfire first) rather than just pure armor or magic ressist items and the reasoning being your W gives you insane amounts of armor anyways so health fits rammus perfectly.At least this is what I heard him say on his stream like few days ago.
Also yea I agree that attack speed marks are the way to go with rammus.



W gives both armor and mres, but just with the armor logic, i don't see how sunfire cape fits in, seeing as it gives armor. Also i do not see the point in buying anything but warmogs as your first item, having the same reason as you (W gives you a massive amount of mres and armor giving you a ton of EHP).
hi
Alay
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States660 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-31 03:08:15
October 30 2011 22:19 GMT
#148
Just wrote this up today. Constructive input is welcome. Please point out any spelling errors also.

[image loading]


Sarah's Jungle Rammus Guide

Introduction:

Hello all! Rammus was the first champion I ever played, the first I ever purchased, and to this day my favorite champion. For me, it's been a very long road of trial and testing different builds, strategies, and patterns to learn how to squeeze every ounce of umph from this armadillo. I want to share this knowledge, and maybe even learn some new stuff my self along the way. There's a few things to keep in mind when reading this guide:
1) Rammus is a tank. You can build any champion any way, but at the end of the day he was designed to tank, and it's just what he excels at. This guide is designed with that in mind (Some silly builds with short explainations will be added too for that pubbing fun.)
2) Rammus is a powerful jungler. He's better off in the jungle than in a lane, because he's designed to gank. This guide will be focusing on jungling almost exclusively.
3) These are from my experience, my testing, and my opinion. If something works for you, and you like it better, then do that! This game is about strategy, and strategies change.

Rammus Abilities Overview:

Q: Powerball. Powerball is your mobility, and it's one of the reasons this champion is so potent. When activated you will slowly speed up to your maximum speed. It gives a small knockup effect and a slow on your target when you collide. It's useful for an early game nuke against enemy champions and creep camps, but it's also a real mana hog. The scaling is kinda meh into the late game, so it falls off quick in damage output.

W: Defensive Ball Curl. This is your sustain ability. When activated Rammus curls up, gaining a fair amount of armor and magic resistance. You'll also return some damage when you're auto-attacked (like a mini-thornmail.) It's important to realize that this skill is pretty much the highest skill cap ability on the little guy. The more you play, the more you'll learn when and when not to curl, predicting spikes from AP mages. It lets you get away with some silly things sometimes.

E: Puncturing Taunt. Taunt makes Rammus an amazing tank. At max level you will be able to hold someone attacking you for three, long, painful seconds. The ability also lowers their armor rating, so your team hits a little harder. This ability, when combined with the slow, makes Rammus such a great ganker.

R: Tremors. A low cooldown/high reward ultimate. When activated Rammus does AOE damage every second for 8 seconds--best part is it hits towers! The cooldown is short enough that, with a little CDR, you can blow it on a creep camp or a minion wave without worrying too much about not having it.

Runes/Masteries/Summoner Spells:


For runes, I would suggest Flat Armor Seals, Scaling Magic Resistance Glyphs, Flat Health Quints, then either Attack Speed Marks, or Armor Penetration Marks. Flat Armor Marks are also viable. I've seen some players use scaling MP5 seals mixed with flat armor ones, but don't really like them personally.

For masteries, I think 0/21/9 works best. In defense tree, you'll want Strength of Spirit full, Hardened Skin 3/3, Defensive Master 2/2, Veteran's Scars 4/4, Evasion 2/4, and Tenacity 1/1. In utility, you'll want Perseverence 3/3, Good Hands 1/3, Awareness 4/4, and Utility Mastery 1/2. You can spec into something like 0/20/10 if you really feel you need that 30% buff timer, but I've stopped doing that in favor of the more reliable 4% damage reduction.

Smite: Required for Jungle Rammus.
Flash: Probably has more utility on Rammus than most champions, because you can flash over creep waves during powerball to prevent interrupt. I'd say it's non-negotiable.

Quick Guide:
AS Marks, Armor Seals, Scaling MR Glyphs, Flat Health Quints, 0/21/9 masteries, 5x health potion + cloth armor start, first point in W. Blue -> Wolves -> Wraiths -> Red -> Golem -> Gank. Heart of Gold, Boots of Speed, Wriggle's Lantern.

Jungle Overview:

This guide will be making the assumption you have a general idea of the role of a jungler, what the buffs do, and a good idea of how much xp each camp gives. It will focus more on strategy.

Jungle Rammus starts pretty much the same way always; 5x health potions, and a Cloth Armor. Pop a point in W. You'll want to start waddling your back end to blue buff. This is where the game starts dictating your build and jungle order.

If the other team doesn't gank at blue:
Talk your team into a strong leash, Then start auto attacking blue. When the leash ends, activate Defensive Ball Curl and keep auto atacking. If you're below 75% health before it's ready to smite, start running your first potion. When the blue golem is low enough, smite it, and put your second point in Q.
From there, powerball to wolf camp, make sure to hit them all, then activate defensive ball curl and start attacking the big wolf.
Walk over to wraith camp, powerball so you hit all of them, then curl and attack the big one. You'll be either running your first or second potion while on wraith camp. You'll be level three by now. You can either put a second point in W for a safer, easier, and cleaner jungle so you have a better time during early-mid game, or you can put a second point in Q if you want to get very aggressive early--though it's a bit risky!
Walk over to red camp, powerball, defensive curl, and start attacking the large one. You'll be running your second and third potion here usually. Smite when he's low enough.
Mini-golems is the last on your jungle tour. Powerball into them, curl, and you know the rest.
From here, you'll be level 4, and can put your first point into E so you're ready to gank! Now comes the toughest question of the game for you: Do you gank now, and try to make that over extending champion pay, or do you recall and get boots before you gank? The quick gank is incredibly powerful on Rammus--he's even capable of jungling fast enough to out level middle. However, without boots it's harder to pull out. Run that 5th pot and go gank if you decide to, or blue pill back and pick up a ward, some potions, and boots.

If the other team ganks at blue:
If you end up losing the safety of a blue, you may want to adjust to a safer jungle. I general go with a Wolf Camp start, smite blue wraith, clear wraith camp, double golems, back and buy a vampiric scepter, then do the standard jungle line above. You'll probably be forced into a wriggle's here. (Read below)

Your goal early game will be to get a heart of gold somewhat fast, have enough wards to stay safe, potions to stay active, and map presence enough to help your team. It's a hard balance to keep. The second major choice of the game is your early game build. Ideally speaking, you're going to want a Heart of Gold, a Catalyst the Protector, and Boots of Speed. The Heart of Gold gives you a strong health backing (Rammus' biggest issue) and some gold generation while you're out of the jungle. The boots of speed are enough to keep you up with your opponents and ganking them. The Catalyst is your main sustain, and opens up so many options for Rammus (most importantly, an early Banshee's veil, and the ability to give your blue to middle mage for pretty much the rest of the game.)
The major choice in this is if you want to get aggressive early, and possibly pay for it later, or have a stronger mid game with a slower early. This choice can be summarized in one sentence; Do I get a Wriggle's Lantern or not?
Wriggles is an amazing item for a jungler, and can speed up the jungle of rammus by quite a bit. It allows him to take a solo dragon in a realistic amount of time. Invade a little better. Do more early damage. Have an extra free ward, and health sustain through your jungle. The down side is, you have later defense items, and Wriggles does practically nothing for you past the early game--the sustain it gives is outshined by the armor/health regen, the damage it gives is outdone by your armor bonuses to damage and the fact that you're a tank, and the small amount of armor it has is pointless over other better tanky items.
A lot of people swear by wriggles and would buy it every game. Others would say it's a horrible item on him. It's neither of these, because it's an amazing item in some situations, and a horrible one in others. The choice of if you buy it or not and how useful it would be is really summarized by an "It depends." When and when not to go the Wriggle's route is something that you can only really grow to feel through game experience as Rammus.

The Mid Game and You:
Basically, your goal is to get to three items: Banshee's Veil, Randuin's Omen, and Mercury Treads. With this you can slap around anyone, have great health to back it up, be credit to team in fights, and still scary 1v1. The order in which you upgrade your Catalyst, Heart of Gold, and Boots of Speed are dependent on what's going on in the game, who's getting kills and what their team composition is. If it's an ability power heavy team, the quick Negatron cloak is a no brainer. If they have two ranged carries that got a couple kills under their belt, Randuin's is a better choice. If you're getting CC'd to death, Treads is probably a better choice. It really comes down to who you want to pick a fight with, and who isn't much of a thread.
Often I find myself repeating the same question when I have to pick what item I commit to: "Who am I most afraid of on the other team right now?"
This isn't a question of what to worry about if X or Y happens, but at this exact moment, who is the scariest champion on the field. More often than not, this buying pattern has worked out for me.

Once mid game rolls around, you should be less worried about ganking for kills and more about pushing down towers, and getting team fights going. Your damage will start dropping off at about this point, so it's time to become more of a true tank. If you can get a mage to blow their load on you at the start of a team fight, you've done your job quite well!
Taunting targets is also much more of a hard choice now. The AD carries are usually the best choice, because you can curl and poke them back, but holding a mage from bursting while your team nukes them can also be the difference maker. Above all, communicate, ping, shout at your teammates who you're going to make life hell for!

Item Guide and my 2 cents on each (Aka the late game):

After the mid game, what you go for is pretty much up to you and what you feel would suit your team best. Health stays an important aspect of Rammus, since he has very low innate health, though your Randuin's Omen and Banshee's Veil should cover most of what you'll totally need to have.

Armor Items:

Aegis of the Legion: A really good team item, but better on an off-tank/support than on Rammus. I generally don't buy one, and it's not the best option after the early/mid game.

Frozen Heart:
This can be good in certain situations, but the lack of health on it really hurts. Mana tends to be a lesser problem in the late game, and it's just so expensive. I think out of all my games played, I've maybe bought this once for Rammus. The synergy between Randuin's Active/Passive and Frozen Heart should not be underestimated though.

Guardian Angel: A fun item, but not one I generally go for. The passive really isn't worth it much for a tank, because generally you'll either get out alive, or will die almost last. The stats are also priced expensive, so you're better off with other items.

Sunfire Cape: Another overcosted item. The aura isn't really that useful for Rammus, but if you really desperately need more health, I'd turn to this before something like a Warmogs. Randuin's is simply cheaper, gives more, and is overall more useful.

Thornmail: Thornmail is one of those reserve items, like the Quicksilver Sash (explained a few paragraphs down) that should be kept in the bag of tricks. Generally speaking, it's not that useful on Rammus because it doesn't give any health, and only a lot of armor--essentially you'd be buying a very expensive passive for him, but that passive can recover a game! It should be brought out when a hypercarry starts hypercarrying a little too good--Tryndamere, Master Yi, and Kog'Maw can all get a few kills too far ahead and start demolishing house. With Thornmail, you can pretty much taunt, curl, and shut them down completely for a quick focus explode. However, it should generally only be bought when an AD carry is wrecking even through your Randuin's.

Zhonya's Hourglass: Not worth it on Rammus, unless going for an AP tank build (read towards the end.)

Magic Resist Items:

Abyssal Scepter: It's at best okay on Rammus. The aura can help your team and make you hit just a tiny bit harder, but the AP is barely worth it, and there's better MR items.

Force of Nature: probably the best go-to item if you're against a very AP heavy team, or they have a really fed nuker. The passive from it doesn't help Rammus so much because he has low health, but the movement speed, huge MR and health regen are pretty sweet. This is probably one of the best choices for late game against a comp with two nukers or one fed nuker. It will keep you in the game much longer.

Hexdrinker: Never actually tried it. Don't think it'd be very good for him since Attack Damage is pretty meh, and past the early game it falls off hard.

Quick Silver Sash: It's that item you rarely get, but should often ask yourself "Should I have a QSS?" The ability to cleanse can save your rear a lot, and it's a very cheap and effective MR item. It shuts down champions like Veigar very hard too. I'd only recommend if the situation calls for it.

Spirit Visage:
A tiny bit of MR, some CDR, and a healing buff. Not overly useful, but the situation where it's nice does come up in very very rare cases.

Wit's End: A poor item if you're straight tanking, a godly item if you're doing a tanky-DPS Atmogs build.

Health Items:

Frozen Mallet:
Lots of health, but only really useful if you're doing a tanky-dps Atmogs build.

Rylai's Crystal Scepter: An expensive, and often times silly pick, it's actually crazy potent on Rammus! Health is one of his biggest issues, and this item patches that up very nice. The AP on it doesn't do a whole lot for you, but the slow on magic damage is insane! Powerball slows targets to a near crawl, while anyone unfortunate enough to find themselves inside your tremors tick will feel like they walked in super-glue. Defensive Ball Curl procs also cause the on-slow effect, so in a team fight if someone is stupid enough or unfortunate enough to attack you, they'll be slowed as well! This item is a really hidden gem for the champion, and is slowly being something I strongly consider after my usual core is done.

Rod of Ages:
A very expensive item, and not wholey useful for him. The only reason this should ever be used is if you're going for an AP Rammus nuker, which is more of a goofy/gimmick build than a real one.

Warmogs:
This item comes down to a decision in building. it's incredibly expensive, and with Rammus' poor farming abilities, it's very long to build up. However, if you're going for this item, you'll probably want to do a straight health tanky-dps build to make it viable. This progresses you more from a real tank into a damage dealer and a pain to kill. I'd suggest skipping this for the most part.

Why not Ninja Tabi?: This is debated quite a lot by Rammus players, some swear by it, others think it garbage. Again, I like the middle road. This item can help you dodge huge hits from fed carries, and give you more tanky ability by sheer avoidance. However, they have issues. The first issue is the lack of tenacity, and the need to put it somewhere else in your build if you want that same effect. The second big issue is how defensive ball curl functions--If you dodge an attack, DBC will NOT return damage. This is fine and dandy usually in team fights, but early jungling this can cause some headaches. Overall, I think this item is the better boots to get if you're laning as Rammus, or playing him as an atmogs tanky-dps, rather than a true tank. In lane the creap attacks plus the nimbleness box makes you faster and earier to grab people early. When jungling, they're just generally outshined by Merc Treads.

Final Notes:

Welp, that's my rough guide. It's by no means thoroughly detailed, but it should cover what you need to know to play the champion and start learning the ins and outs. If you're looking for more of a general Rammus guide on moves and skills, there's a great guide by Bguggs that should be easy to find on google. Before I end this, here's a quick rundown of things to always keep in mind when playing:

#Always make sure you have a good idea of where your opponents are, and are safe enough. Don't whine "No MIAs!" if you die from overextending like an idiot.
#Always make sure dragon is warded! Pink ward preferred.
#Make sure Baron is usually warded mid game, and always late game.
#Don't ever let anyone tell you that you should always get X item on Y champion. The only thing you should ever buy on every champion is wards
#Did I mention warding is important? Well it is.
#When you die, ask yourself "What did I do wrong that I could have changed" before you say "WHY IS [other player on team] SO HORRIBLE?!" You'll learn more that way.
#Remember to have fun, it's a game!
#Warding is important.

Some different builds:


Tanky-DPS Rammus: Warmog's Armor, Atma's Impaler, Ninja Tabi, Frozen Mallet, Sunfire Cape. Scare squishies and hit like a bulldozer!

AP Nuker: Rod of Ages, Zonya's Hourglass, Abyssal Scepter, Rylai's Crystal Scepter, Rabbadon's Death Cap, Socerer's Shoes.

[image loading]
TheKefka
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Croatia11752 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-31 09:20:37
October 31 2011 09:15 GMT
#149
On October 31 2011 05:11 Sponkz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2011 04:33 TheKefka wrote:
On October 31 2011 01:10 TheYango wrote:
Saintvicious and Lapaka both use ArPen marks, Armor seals/quints, MR/lvl glyphs. Saint uses 1/13/16, while Lapaka uses 0/9/21. Both build Wriggle's->Aegis->Sunfire/Warmog/Atmas in some order.

Dan Dinh uses ArPen marks, Armor seals, MR/lvl glyphs, gp10 quints, and 0/21/9 masteries. He builds double gp5->Sunfire->Warmogs (but still starts cloth armor).

Are you sure about that? I heard Saint many times saying wrigglers is really not worth it on rammus and that he really doesn't like building it.
What I saw him build was starting with cloth armor/5pot-->philo stone-->if things are going really well boots and Hog,if not boots-->Aegis-->Shurleyas.
From than on he seems to prefer items with health(sunfire first) rather than just pure armor or magic ressist items and the reasoning being your W gives you insane amounts of armor anyways so health fits rammus perfectly.At least this is what I heard him say on his stream like few days ago.
Also yea I agree that attack speed marks are the way to go with rammus.



W gives both armor and mres, but just with the armor logic, i don't see how sunfire cape fits in, seeing as it gives armor. Also i do not see the point in buying anything but warmogs as your first item, having the same reason as you (W gives you a massive amount of mres and armor giving you a ton of EHP).

The reason you go sunfire cape is because it gives you health,armor and aditional amounts of aoe damage that you already dish out with W and R so it was always a logical part of my build kinda.I don't know,Sunfire is always my first option after I finish my starting build off,its not that expensive and gives you everything you would want on a rammus.But yea you might have a point with going with warmongs as the first choice I'll try it out.
Cackle™
Accelerant
Profile Joined April 2011
20 Posts
October 31 2011 09:47 GMT
#150
LoL do you really need to analyse health items like RoA.. rofl :D
Sponkz
Profile Joined May 2011
Denmark4564 Posts
October 31 2011 12:09 GMT
#151
On October 31 2011 18:15 TheKefka wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2011 05:11 Sponkz wrote:
On October 31 2011 04:33 TheKefka wrote:
On October 31 2011 01:10 TheYango wrote:
Saintvicious and Lapaka both use ArPen marks, Armor seals/quints, MR/lvl glyphs. Saint uses 1/13/16, while Lapaka uses 0/9/21. Both build Wriggle's->Aegis->Sunfire/Warmog/Atmas in some order.

Dan Dinh uses ArPen marks, Armor seals, MR/lvl glyphs, gp10 quints, and 0/21/9 masteries. He builds double gp5->Sunfire->Warmogs (but still starts cloth armor).

Are you sure about that? I heard Saint many times saying wrigglers is really not worth it on rammus and that he really doesn't like building it.
What I saw him build was starting with cloth armor/5pot-->philo stone-->if things are going really well boots and Hog,if not boots-->Aegis-->Shurleyas.
From than on he seems to prefer items with health(sunfire first) rather than just pure armor or magic ressist items and the reasoning being your W gives you insane amounts of armor anyways so health fits rammus perfectly.At least this is what I heard him say on his stream like few days ago.
Also yea I agree that attack speed marks are the way to go with rammus.



W gives both armor and mres, but just with the armor logic, i don't see how sunfire cape fits in, seeing as it gives armor. Also i do not see the point in buying anything but warmogs as your first item, having the same reason as you (W gives you a massive amount of mres and armor giving you a ton of EHP).

The reason you go sunfire cape is because it gives you health,armor and aditional amounts of aoe damage that you already dish out with W and R so it was always a logical part of my build kinda.I don't know,Sunfire is always my first option after I finish my starting build off,its not that expensive and gives you everything you would want on a rammus.But yea you might have a point with going with warmongs as the first choice I'll try it out.



Sunfire Cape's passive grows weaker as the game goes on, and armor shouldnt be a needed thing that early on, if you went on and bought wriggles. Later on, when you need extra defensive stats (i.e armor or mres) you can either buy a chain vest and/or negatron before finishing atmas, which will give you some insane tanking capabilities along with damage.
hi
Alay
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States660 Posts
October 31 2011 16:24 GMT
#152
On October 31 2011 18:47 Accelerant wrote:
LoL do you really need to analyse health items like RoA.. rofl :D


Of course! RoA -> Zhonya's -> Rylai's -> Deathcap is a perfectly viable* troll build when your team in 17-1 by the 15 minute mark. 1K powerballs become very serious business xD

Mostly though, I wanted to cover everything.
Zato-1
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Chile4253 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-31 18:48:05
October 31 2011 18:37 GMT
#153
On October 30 2011 22:25 Haasts wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2011 21:20 Zato-1 wrote:
I haven't updated the OP yet, because I'd like feedback on how you guys think Rammus should be built before I do that.


How's this going, Zato? To consolidate for my own sake, there's been a bit of Rammus chatter in the Graves & Riven general discussion threads as well as the TL B thread. Apparently Smash has been streaming some Rammus games (haven't been around at the right time so no idea re: builds etc), and in this week's Dignitas vs SK Rampage King of the Hill, Jatt played Rammus in the first game, building Wriggles=>Warmogs, Merc Treads and had purchased a Negatron cloak when the game ended; Snoopeh used a similar build in game two.

Been mucking around with him this week running armor seals + quints, mres/level glyphs & attack speed marks; seems to work fairly consistently regardless of running 21/0/9, 0/21/9 or 1/13/16. I'll sporadically run into mana problems, especially if I'm donating the majority of blue buffs - not sure whether it's worth building a early Philo Stone, managing my mana better (less Powerballs in the jungle), or utilising some mana regen/level runes. Also, if you build a Philo Stone, how is Reverie on him? There are times I'd love to have a MS boost while still maintaining DBC if I'm at risk from serious AP burst on my way towards taunting an AD carry, etc.

Atmogs seems to work out really well on him if you get it built, but Rammus' existing mid-game lull is exacerbated by the building-Atmogs mid-game lull ... best to rush Warmogs after Wriggle's, or build some sort of HoG/Zeal/Wit's End/etc in the interim?

Welcome to TeamLiquid, Haasts!

I've been playing some Rammus games, reading posts, watching streams, doing math (such as IE vs. Phantom Dancer vs. Triforce as an endgame DPS item for a Rammus that already has Atmog's - Phantom Dancer wins hands down), trying builds, and thinking a bit in order to transition from a full tank guide to a tanky DPS guide. I've updated the OP (changes are listed in changelog at the very end of the first post), added the new guide on this page as a link to the OP, and am pretty happy with the end result.

I don't like Philo stone -> Shurelia's on Rammus because while it's good for your team, it gimps your own performance- making you fall behind on the arms race as a tanky DPS champion. Mana5/level seals take care of my mana issues, so that's what I roll with instead. The reason why building tanky DPS is so important is that otherwise, you pose no threat and can be safely ignored after your initial CC train, even by enemy glass cannons; you deal little damage, and because you deal little damage enemies feel like attacking you is a waste of time and completely ignore all those tanky stats you've been building up. If you're tanky and also a threat, then you're far more likely to be attacked, putting those defensive stats to good use and ultimately doing a better job as a tank, by actually taking damage for your team.

Let me know of any parts of the guide you guys disagree with or want me to elaborate on.
Go here http://vina.biobiochile.cl/ and input the Konami Code (up up down down left right left right B A)
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
October 31 2011 19:00 GMT
#154
I just 21/0/9 and pain train people, CHOO CHOO!
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
October 31 2011 19:04 GMT
#155
do you always w last for combos? like taunt first, then ult, then w? or taunt then w if no ult?
LlOoKkIi
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Korea (South)473 Posts
October 31 2011 19:05 GMT
#156
Rammus was my first tank that I really well in love with, always played him jungle too. Feels like he is just such a weak lane presence that he has to be played like that. Also I think he has some of the strongest level 3 ganks in the game if you get taunt. Still even though I don't play as much still one of my favourite champs.
Korean Highschool Exchange Student. Apink's Eunji #1
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
October 31 2011 19:06 GMT
#157
On November 01 2011 04:04 zulu_nation8 wrote:
do you always w last for combos? like taunt first, then ult, then w? or taunt then w if no ult?

I ult on my way in on the powerball (you can turn it on without interrupting the powerball), then E, then W.
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
barbsq
Profile Joined November 2009
United States5348 Posts
October 31 2011 19:11 GMT
#158
worst feeling ever: flash powerball into enemy team, 1v5 for about 3-4 secs, find out that your team is too pussy to follow you, despite forcing multiple ults........
Look at this guy, constantly diluting himself! (╮°-°)╮┳━┳ ( ╯°□°)╯ ┻━┻
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
October 31 2011 19:21 GMT
#159
On November 01 2011 04:11 barbsq wrote:
worst feeling ever: flash powerball into enemy team, 1v5 for about 3-4 secs, find out that your team is too pussy to follow you, despite forcing multiple ults........

should've just solo pentakilled them. you are the moose after all.
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
Sponkz
Profile Joined May 2011
Denmark4564 Posts
October 31 2011 20:03 GMT
#160
On November 01 2011 04:11 barbsq wrote:
worst feeling ever: flash powerball into enemy team, 1v5 for about 3-4 secs, find out that your team is too pussy to follow you, despite forcing multiple ults........



I have a feeling you went out of it alive right?
hi
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
October 31 2011 22:49 GMT
#161
so if you W before R or E it cancels?
Seuss
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States10536 Posts
October 31 2011 23:21 GMT
#162
As far as I'm aware only W and collisions will cancel Powerball prematurely, but good luck taunting anyone without smacking into them.
"I am not able to carry all this people alone, for they are too heavy for me." -Moses (Numbers 11:14)
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
October 31 2011 23:23 GMT
#163
no i mean does it cancel the shield if I shield first, then taunt or ult?
Seuss
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States10536 Posts
October 31 2011 23:28 GMT
#164
No, DBC only cancels prematurely if you Powerball or manually end it.
"I am not able to carry all this people alone, for they are too heavy for me." -Moses (Numbers 11:14)
AUGcodon
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Canada536 Posts
November 06 2011 19:37 GMT
#165
So I been messing around with rammus on dominion and yea he is pretty strong over there. I am going ninja tabi> warmogs > thornmail > altams > PD > FD/FON.

I think warmogs, altams and thornmail are pretty core since they can pretty much make you 1v3 bruisers + AD.

Anyone else have any thought about how to build him on dom?

2809-8732-2116/ Fighting/ Mienfoo, Tyrogue, Sawk
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
November 08 2011 19:20 GMT
#166
aight yo, just feel like telling you guys that even though it seems scrubby as fuck, Boots of Mobility Rammus is pretty damn effective. Eh successfully ganks overextended lanes no matter how hard they ward and doesn't afraid of anything. and rushing dat Zeal before warmog's when you're getting fed makes it even funnier.
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
Terranasaur
Profile Joined May 2011
United States2085 Posts
November 08 2011 19:47 GMT
#167
Doesn't make a ton of sense to me to use Tabi on Rammus. I usually build Thornmail first and a major source of my damage output is Thormail and DBC. I'm not sure about this but I don't think attackers take damage if I dodge the attack. Right?
Decisions Determine Destiny - Terranasaur#1719 D3 #557 SC2 3DS FC: 2423-3623-8068
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
November 08 2011 19:48 GMT
#168
thornmail is a retarded item that no one in their right mind should buy more than once every 50 games. it's soooooo bad.
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
Dr. ROCKZO
Profile Joined May 2010
New Zealand396 Posts
November 08 2011 19:53 GMT
#169
On November 09 2011 04:48 Mogwai wrote:
thornmail is a retarded item that no one in their right mind should buy more than once every 50 games. it's soooooo bad.


It actually has one of the highest armor/gold efficiencies in the game. And on someone like Rammus who's designed to pop AD carries with his 3 second taunt and DBC, it's a great item.

Why do you think it's bad?
or something
Sponkz
Profile Joined May 2011
Denmark4564 Posts
November 08 2011 20:02 GMT
#170
On November 09 2011 04:53 Dr. ROCKZO wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 09 2011 04:48 Mogwai wrote:
thornmail is a retarded item that no one in their right mind should buy more than once every 50 games. it's soooooo bad.


It actually has one of the highest armor/gold efficiencies in the game. And on someone like Rammus who's designed to pop AD carries with his 3 second taunt and DBC, it's a great item.

Why do you think it's bad?



You don't need 100 armor on rammus. You get enough from his W. Atmogs 2gud
hi
PassiveAce
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States18076 Posts
November 08 2011 20:02 GMT
#171
On November 09 2011 04:48 Mogwai wrote:
thornmail is a retarded item that no one in their right mind should buy more than once every 50 games. it's soooooo bad.


Can you please explain why you dont like it? (Im not very good and id like to know your reasoning)
Call me Marge Simpson cuz I love you homie
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
November 08 2011 20:04 GMT
#172
On November 09 2011 04:53 Dr. ROCKZO wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 09 2011 04:48 Mogwai wrote:
thornmail is a retarded item that no one in their right mind should buy more than once every 50 games. it's soooooo bad.


It actually has one of the highest armor/gold efficiencies in the game. And on someone like Rammus who's designed to pop AD carries with his 3 second taunt and DBC, it's a great item.

Why do you think it's bad?

if you really just want armor/gold, cloth armor has a higher efficiency. Anyway, if you want to pop someone in 3 seconds, you do it better with an atma's or phantom dancer.

taunt is best on mages. DPS wanna fight anyway, so taunting them tends to not accomplish as much as GGing Kassadin out of spells for 3 seconds.

Rammus has a retarded built in armor/mres steroid, which means that HP is overvalued on him while resists are undervalued on him. Since thornmail is all resists (and a resist that Rammus already gets easily through wriggle's and atma's and possibly ninja tabi or sunfire cape), it's stats aren't something you're dying to have. Once you get your warmog's (ideal for tanking with DBC), Atma's just makes a shit ton more sense. It's lets you focus your damage better and doesn't rely on people attacking you for you to do your damage.

And this is just talking on Rammus. On other characters, it's still a stupid item because it's still paying 2000 gold to basically only counter auto-attacking. Omen and Frozen Heart both just do the job better unless the opponent's have built up a completely retarded team where it's like, 4 guys who right click to do their damage.
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
Two_DoWn
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States13684 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-08 20:08:16
November 08 2011 20:07 GMT
#173
I actually disagree Mog- taunt is best on whoever has the most damage potential. It does no good to taunt an Annie that has already blown her load. Thormail makes a lot of sense if you know that you are going to have to target the ranged carry or ad caster and let another member of your team take care of the mage. Other characters like Swain or Morg make equally no sense to taunt.
"What is the air speed velocity of an unladen courier?" "Dire or Radiant?"
PassiveAce
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States18076 Posts
November 08 2011 20:07 GMT
#174
On November 09 2011 05:04 Mogwai wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 09 2011 04:53 Dr. ROCKZO wrote:
On November 09 2011 04:48 Mogwai wrote:
thornmail is a retarded item that no one in their right mind should buy more than once every 50 games. it's soooooo bad.


It actually has one of the highest armor/gold efficiencies in the game. And on someone like Rammus who's designed to pop AD carries with his 3 second taunt and DBC, it's a great item.

Why do you think it's bad?

if you really just want armor/gold, cloth armor has a higher efficiency. Anyway, if you want to pop someone in 3 seconds, you do it better with an atma's or phantom dancer.

taunt is best on mages. DPS wanna fight anyway, so taunting them tends to not accomplish as much as GGing Kassadin out of spells for 3 seconds.

Rammus has a retarded built in armor/mres steroid, which means that HP is overvalued on him while resists are undervalued on him. Since thornmail is all resists (and a resist that Rammus already gets easily through wriggle's and atma's and possibly ninja tabi or sunfire cape), it's stats aren't something you're dying to have. Once you get your warmog's (ideal for tanking with DBC), Atma's just makes a shit ton more sense. It's lets you focus your damage better and doesn't rely on people attacking you for you to do your damage.

And this is just talking on Rammus. On other characters, it's still a stupid item because it's still paying 2000 gold to basically only counter auto-attacking. Omen and Frozen Heart both just do the job better unless the opponent's have built up a completely retarded team where it's like, 4 guys who right click to do their damage.


wow good points, thanks for posting.
Call me Marge Simpson cuz I love you homie
Alzadar
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada5009 Posts
November 08 2011 20:09 GMT
#175
Thornmail is really fun to get in games where you're way ahead, but otherwise I'd agree that it's a waste of time. Phantom Dancer + Warmogs + Atmas is the way to go.
I am the Town Medic.
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-08 20:14:13
November 08 2011 20:12 GMT
#176
On November 09 2011 05:07 Two_DoWn wrote:
I actually disagree Mog- taunt is best on whoever has the most damage potential. It does no good to taunt an Annie that has already blown her load. Thormail makes a lot of sense if you know that you are going to have to target the ranged carry or ad caster and let another member of your team take care of the mage. Other characters like Swain or Morg make equally no sense to taunt.

well, ok, sure, it's situational, but on the onset of a fight, you're in front. while mages try to position so that they can blow up your team, they typically have the highest damage potential and they should be your first target for taunt so that you can prevent them from blowing up your team. (EDIT: I'd also like to point out that in this scenario, which always seems to be the most common in my rammus games, you having HP and MRes is vital to their Mage not just blowing you the fuck up for having 600 armor, 2K HP and 45 MRes). If you arrive late or positionally screw up so that Annie already dumped her combo on your team, sure, go ahead and taunt the ranged carry. But I'd still rather have a Sunfire, Atma's or Phantom Dancer over a Thornmail every single time. It's not like an Atmog's Rammus has any problem soloing a ranged carry with DBC and Taunt on them.
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-08 20:26:34
November 08 2011 20:21 GMT
#177
On November 09 2011 05:07 Two_DoWn wrote:
I actually disagree Mog- taunt is best on whoever has the most damage potential. It does no good to taunt an Annie that has already blown her load. Thormail makes a lot of sense if you know that you are going to have to target the ranged carry or ad caster and let another member of your team take care of the mage. Other characters like Swain or Morg make equally no sense to taunt.

Even if you're taunting an AD champ, Randuin's is superior, because you force them to proc the Randuin slow, ruining their damage output AND making it harder for them to run when the taunt is over. And the Randuin active has great synergy with DBC--popping Randuin active during DBC gets the slow to last like 5-6 seconds.

Powerball->Taunt->enemy procced Randuin slow->active Randuin slow->Taunt and Powerball off CD again
Moderator
Two_DoWn
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States13684 Posts
November 08 2011 20:50 GMT
#178
If I'm taunting an ad carry, why the hell would I want to decrease the damage I deal to them? Because thats exactly what randuins does.
"What is the air speed velocity of an unladen courier?" "Dire or Radiant?"
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
November 08 2011 20:56 GMT
#179
That's a pretty bad argument. I'd prefer to stay alive longer than to miss like 90 damage from 1 or 2 less hits while DBC is up. That said, randuins is pretty unnecessary on rammus because he doesn't need the survivability like the Tanky DPS do and if he does thornmail makes more sense IMO.

Only after HP items, ofc. I feel thornmail you only get if their ad carry is so fed damage taken while DBC is down is important.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-08 21:21:27
November 08 2011 21:12 GMT
#180
On November 09 2011 05:50 Two_DoWn wrote:
If I'm taunting an ad carry, why the hell would I want to decrease the damage I deal to them? Because thats exactly what randuins does.

If I want damage, I'll buy damage items. The thing is, every aspect of Randuin's has fantastic synergy with Rammus' kit. I usually end up with a Heart of Gold already anyway, so may as well use it.

MS/AS slow that applies on people hitting you? Maybe that's good on someone who can make people hit him. AoE slow that scales duration off resists? Maybe that's good on someone who has an enormous armor/MR steroid. Or maybe for someone who has an extremely strong persistent AoE ult that he's trying to keep enemy champions inside. Oh wait, Rammus has ALL those things.
Moderator
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
November 08 2011 21:29 GMT
#181
If they have like 2 autoattackers I think thornmail is amazing on rammus. I also don't think you can have too much armor on rammus unless the other team is stacked with AP.

magic damage comes at you in bursts so your W helps a lot with it. autoattacks come constantly so your w wears off but the autos are still coming.. given that rammus gets + damage from armor, vs a balanced team I would definitely prefer to get more armor than MR.

atmogs sounds great but the problem with atmogs is that its SUPER EXPENSIVE.
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
November 08 2011 21:31 GMT
#182
If I can't wait for atmog's, why wouldn't I get sunfire cape to give balanced stats and increase my AoE damage output?
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
Two_DoWn
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States13684 Posts
November 08 2011 21:33 GMT
#183
Because I play rammus as an anti-carry (which is what he is). He instagibs people through his taunt duration with w and r. It makes no sense to me to buy an item that makes his harder.
"What is the air speed velocity of an unladen courier?" "Dire or Radiant?"
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
November 08 2011 21:39 GMT
#184
ok, w/e bro. I'll continue to only build it vs. trynd + kog/trist + Nocturne teams.
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-08 22:07:16
November 08 2011 22:04 GMT
#185
On November 09 2011 06:29 travis wrote:
If they have like 2 autoattackers I think thornmail is amazing on rammus. I also don't think you can have too much armor on rammus unless the other team is stacked with AP.

magic damage comes at you in bursts so your W helps a lot with it. autoattacks come constantly so your w wears off but the autos are still coming.. given that rammus gets + damage from armor, vs a balanced team I would definitely prefer to get more armor than MR.

atmogs sounds great but the problem with atmogs is that its SUPER EXPENSIVE.


atmogs is super expensive but warmogs is the most cost effective item for rammus. It covers his health problem which means you are suddenly as tanky as you need and the health regen helps a lot as rammus is susceptible to being poked. Atmas is the most logical follow up.

Just for the record phantom dancer is amazing for killing carries in your R E W duration. Fucking redonkulous crits with level 5 W and rammus passive.
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-08 22:36:16
November 08 2011 22:35 GMT
#186
yeah i definitely understand how warmogs is great for rammus but the problem is the 15-20 minute period of the game where you are trying to build it. and i mean if u open hog and philo stone like i like to that's a 10-15 minute period where ur items just suck so much ass
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-08 22:40:57
November 08 2011 22:40 GMT
#187
Giants belt doesn't suck ass.
Ruby crystal doesn't suck ass.
Regrowth arguably sucks but has its uses.

Where is your power period as rammus by not buying warmogs? What items make you more powerful? Sunfire is 400 gold cheaper and gives you stats you want less. Not really that different. It's not like normal bruisers who want to get their damage items.
Alay
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States660 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-09 04:36:25
November 09 2011 04:31 GMT
#188
I originally swore by Mogs, but now I only get it if I'm way ahead and want to be a little silly. I feel that the sustain from Catalyst, along with the health of HoG -> Randuin's just makes the mogs route not worth it. Rammus is pretty icky with farming too, which makes it an even lesser appealing choice. To top it all off, Atma's is just soo expensive, and really doesn't do anything for Rammus (your auto attack hits harder than you arguably could get by building straight tanky, but without an AS boost item it's kinda pointless.)

As it currently stands, I don't feel like it could get much better versus the standards tanky dps top, ap mid, ad/support bot, tanky dps jungler meta than the Randuin's, Banshee's, and Merc Treads midgame.

The catalyst solves all the health/mana problems around this time, so you can give away every blue without a sweat. The Heart of Gold gives that health that is so important on Rammus, and the early merc treads make ganks harder to avoid. Catalyst also helps relieve dependency on wriggle's, though I still buy wriggles early depending on how my first few ganks go/how I feel like playing it out.

I understand the argument behind not bothering with MR much at all, because you can W off the burst from mages, but realistically speaking I'd rather have the safety net. I've played probably around 75% of my games as the armadillo, and I still only W time a generous estimation of maybe 60%. To add to this, so many champions have secondary magic damage that adds up in places. I'd rather have the blue bubble, especially going into the mid game.

Randuin's... is so perfect. It hurts your reflect damage, true enough, but the utility it provides is soooo good. The high health plus the armor makes you exceptionally strong. The slow can help you get away, or keep a target locked. And then there's the activate... it can change fights, or make ganks super super easy.

Currently speaking, my favorite item after this "core" (if I'm not forced into a counter build for a fed champion) is Rylai's. The fact that it procs from W returns, procs from Tremors, procs from powerball... Oh man, so much extra CC! The huge health is perfect for Rammus, and his powerball has a 1:1 AP ratio which definitely means the ap from it (while not amazing by any means for him) doesn't go to waste.

That's not the say the current agmogs/tabi/sunfire build doesn't work for him, it does a job fine enough, and for most people that try the champ and don't end up main selecting Rammus, it will get the job mostly done. I just feel it's not ideal.

edit:
On November 09 2011 07:40 Slayer91 wrote:
Giants belt doesn't suck ass.
Ruby crystal doesn't suck ass.
Regrowth arguably sucks but has its uses.

Where is your power period as rammus by not buying warmogs? What items make you more powerful? Sunfire is 400 gold cheaper and gives you stats you want less. Not really that different. It's not like normal bruisers who want to get their damage items.


I'd say that Rammus is one of the most powerful champions in the early game. His true power period where he kill people and wreck shit is from level 4 first gank, up until probably around the 20 minute mark. Once he gets "ahead" he generally stays there quite well. His power period ends when builds start coming together for other champs, and his damage falls out. At that point, he becomes the team CC/tanking god. Ya do a lot less damage late game as Rammus, but boy can you make picking off important targets easy for your carries.
ZERG_RUSSIAN
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
10417 Posts
November 09 2011 11:03 GMT
#189
If sunfire didn't have the aoe component I wouldn't consider it, but because it does it's actually pretty useful. The aoe isn't insignificant. I go sunfire vs most teams that aren't full magic damage.
I'm on GOLD CHAIN
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-09 12:09:50
November 09 2011 12:04 GMT
#190
If you build wriggles there are no health problems and farming problems. Mana problems avoidable because with wriggles you don't need any spells. It also solves the farming problem. If you were talking about a non wriggles rammus but I can see catalyst hog but at the same time warmogs atmas is 5355 gold and randuins banshees is something like 5800 even farming some gold with the hog it's actually cheaper.

Atmas gives 45 armour, randuins gives 75, you're losing 8 AD from the armour loss + it's cheaper +you get far more ad from atmas + 18% crit is pretty huge when you have like 300 AD with DBC up. The next logical item is zeal or wits end or something for attack speed. Rammus becomes pretty much unfocusable anyway and in terms of effective health I doubt rylais/randuins/banshees is even as tanky as atmogs+wits end. Your build has less health regen, less health (if mogs is charged), same magic resist if wits is charged, 30 more armour, and 80 more AP. You're losing 18% crit about 65 normal AD, 55 magic AD, and 50% attack speed and the damage difference is massive.

I don't like sunfire purely because I tend to go for squishies most of the time instead of standing in the middle being annoying and being ready to taunt bruisers and stuff.

As for the rammus power period. You're saying he's strong early and then later on when you get your items and they get theirs you fall off? Sounds like its a shitty build. When I play rammus I'm a fucking death machine when I get my items and I suck when I do badly early and don't get my items and they get theirs.
Sponkz
Profile Joined May 2011
Denmark4564 Posts
November 09 2011 14:06 GMT
#191
On November 09 2011 21:04 Slayer91 wrote:
As for the rammus power period. You're saying he's strong early and then later on when you get your items and they get theirs you fall off? Sounds like its a shitty build. When I play rammus I'm a fucking death machine when I get my items and I suck when I do badly early and don't get my items and they get theirs.



This

Your build cannot be that great, if you fall off the more the game progresses. As Slayer91 said, with atmogs and wit's end/phantom dancer you become a fucking machine and you're merely laughing as you were singed, because the enemies don't want to focus you, but in the end, you do so much damage and provide utility and CC for your team, that it becomes a nightmare to first focus your carries and then the immovable object.
hi
Alay
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States660 Posts
November 09 2011 18:25 GMT
#192
Hm, I'm not quite so certain. Yes that build does more damage, and off of a good early game, you can snowball like hell (I mean, shit, I was 13/0 using an atmogs build that started really good.) I feel the problem with the build is at a certain point, unless you're really kicking people down and got far enough ahead (which is easy, since Rammus snowballs quite well into the mid) you end up buying at items that don't frankly do as much.

Randuin's + Veil gives less health than a charge mogs, yes, and less regen, but it also gives CDR, makes use of the core GP5 opener, and has a downright amazing active and passive. The veil gives you sustain from its produced item (Catalyst) and lets you survive without Wriggles. I think the more you can mix that opening build depending on how things go, the more likely you are to have success. Wriggle's lantern is in a lot of cases a waste on Rammus. It's so expensive, and the life steal doesn't really end up useful on him in my opinion. The useful side of wriggle's is that it puts you into a very dominating position for the early/mid jungle, letting you more easily set up counters, steals, and quicker clears. If you go for it and delay that core, and end up flopping a bit there, it feels like a very huge mountain to climb back up.

If we're looking at core numbers though, yes the build I proposed is less effective for flat numbers. However, each item brings a great utility that you've left out. Again, the Randuin's slow and it's HoG, Banshee's spell shield and it's sustain-machine catalyst, Rylai's proc on every one of Rammus' skills except taunt.

I play Rammus as almost a true tank though, and that's just my play style. I'm not saying that atmogs doesn't work or is horrible or something--I've used it many times before, and it's a great deviation from his build depending on how the early game goes. I generally find that once I hit Omen/Veil, I don't take another death, and anyone I engage almost invariably dies either by my hand or a teammates hand. The rylai's is just icing on the cake. My proposed build does less direct damage (due to the lack of crit/as) in exchange for (slightly) more magic damage, and guaranteeing that no one is ever getting away from me.
barbsq
Profile Joined November 2009
United States5348 Posts
November 09 2011 18:27 GMT
#193
yo, best rammus build is pdancer be4 boots
Look at this guy, constantly diluting himself! (╮°-°)╮┳━┳ ( ╯°□°)╯ ┻━┻
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
November 09 2011 18:45 GMT
#194
Randuins gives 5% cdr, really small. The use of the core gp5 opener is only making randuins a reasonable buy since its fucking crazy expensive otherwise. The catalyst is a nice idea but I hate buying banshees on tanks. Instead of getting rylais + banshee why not just get RoA? It keeps your catalyst proc and rylais seems like a gimmicky idea since taunted targets don't care about being slowed, powerball already has a slow, you only are getting hit with DBC when you are taunting them. The only use I see is slowing people in your ultimate but it seems gimmicky.

I don't think atmogs is as early game reliant as you say. Catalyst+randuins is similar in cost to warmogs+wriggles and the mana and health sustain is offset buy wriggles letting you stay full health in jungle and using less mana. If you don't get super fed you just get a negatron after your warmogs and a chain mail and just be super tanky and less of a damage threat. You're not losing that much utility. (Randuins slow, it's nice but I don't think it justifies getting it alone. I get it on people who are likely to get targetted by AD carries or auto attackers in general and want to survive it. Rammus only gets targetted when he's taunting and he doesn't really want to reduce damage when he's doing that. Udyr is someone I much prefer randuins on.)
Seuss
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States10536 Posts
November 09 2011 21:04 GMT
#195
The biggest problem with the GP10 "core" is that you jungle slower. As a result you're either sacrificing farm or presence relative to Wriggle's. Wriggle's will actually match and potentially surpass the effective gold intake of Philo + HoG fairly easily between free wards and more farm.

Wriggle's also provides better sustain than Philo, allows your team to take dragon much earlier, and builds off the standard starting item for Rammus.
"I am not able to carry all this people alone, for they are too heavy for me." -Moses (Numbers 11:14)
Brees
Profile Joined January 2010
Marshall Islands3404 Posts
November 09 2011 21:27 GMT
#196
I dont claim to a be a rammus expert (I am though) and my build is wriggles/mercs/hog/sunfire/veil/atma's.
Brees on in
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
November 09 2011 21:32 GMT
#197
I like wriggles/BoM/warmog's/atma's/PD/FoN

dem BoM ganks are too fkin' grood.
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
TheKefka
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Croatia11752 Posts
November 09 2011 21:50 GMT
#198
I don't get it,why would you build BoM on a rammus?
Cackle™
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
November 09 2011 21:53 GMT
#199
because you're a ganker and being able to approach a lane at like, 600 movespeed means that even if their ward is at dragon, you can be on top of bot lane in time to punish them for overextending.
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
TheKefka
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Croatia11752 Posts
November 09 2011 21:55 GMT
#200
On November 10 2011 06:53 Mogwai wrote:
because you're a ganker and being able to approach a lane at like, 600 movespeed means that even if their ward is at dragon, you can be on top of bot lane in time to punish them for overextending.

But like,don't you do that already with your Q?Or does the movespeed stack with Q?O_o
Cackle™
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
November 09 2011 21:57 GMT
#201
ummmm, yea? why wouldn't it stack with Q?
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
TheKefka
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Croatia11752 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-09 22:06:28
November 09 2011 21:57 GMT
#202
On November 10 2011 06:57 Mogwai wrote:
ummmm, yea? why wouldn't it stack with Q?

Lol didn't know that.That's imba!
Just tried it out and its pretty funny.
Cackle™
Alay
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States660 Posts
November 09 2011 22:03 GMT
#203
On November 10 2011 03:45 Slayer91 wrote:
Randuins gives 5% cdr, really small. The use of the core gp5 opener is only making randuins a reasonable buy since its fucking crazy expensive otherwise. The catalyst is a nice idea but I hate buying banshees on tanks. Instead of getting rylais + banshee why not just get RoA? It keeps your catalyst proc and rylais seems like a gimmicky idea since taunted targets don't care about being slowed, powerball already has a slow, you only are getting hit with DBC when you are taunting them. The only use I see is slowing people in your ultimate but it seems gimmicky.

I don't think atmogs is as early game reliant as you say. Catalyst+randuins is similar in cost to warmogs+wriggles and the mana and health sustain is offset buy wriggles letting you stay full health in jungle and using less mana. If you don't get super fed you just get a negatron after your warmogs and a chain mail and just be super tanky and less of a damage threat. You're not losing that much utility. (Randuins slow, it's nice but I don't think it justifies getting it alone. I get it on people who are likely to get targetted by AD carries or auto attackers in general and want to survive it. Rammus only gets targetted when he's taunting and he doesn't really want to reduce damage when he's doing that. Udyr is someone I much prefer randuins on.)


Catalyst/randuin's is 3075+1325 (so a flat 4400), whereas Wriggle's/mogs is 1600+3000 (4600). So, yes, they're similarly priced. What they give in stats is only "comparable" at best, but I highly value the Omen in its early/midgame power, whereas the mogs is only giving your raw stats. I feel without the extra mana and the level regen on it, although you can simply use less mana with wriggle's, if a fight breaks out I tend to be OOM pre-catalyst. I hate philosopher stone, it's just a gold sink that doesn't do what other items would anyways.

RoA is meh. The banshee's is the better choice because of the defense, and the blue bubble. It might be a little over costed, but once you hit it with the right time it ups survivability and you really start to hit that godly tank stage. RoA is also a bit more expensive than BV, and takes time to "charge up" which makes it even less desirable on an aggressive character like Rammus.

Overall, I think Banshee's is the best MR item for the fella (aside from Wit's End on a tanky dps build, but that's debatable even still) because it gives him just enough to get him where he needs to be, as well as the blueshield effect, and the exceptionally necessary health that has such a high value for Rammus. Although it's not an item I frequently get, it simply works when it's early for him very well.

I suppose Rylai's is gimmicky, it just seems like the next best health item at that stage in the game. Plus tremors in a team fight with it is just silly good, especially with omen to back. *shrug*
SnK-Arcbound
Profile Joined March 2005
United States4423 Posts
November 10 2011 04:55 GMT
#204
On November 09 2011 06:33 Two_DoWn wrote:
Because I play rammus as an anti-carry (which is what he is). He instagibs people through his taunt duration with w and r. It makes no sense to me to buy an item that makes his harder.

This is essentially how I play rammus. I had a recent guardsman bob game where we were raped early game, but then my tons of hp and then tank items kicked in and I was able to instagib people if they get caught in the taunt.

I've switched from the sunfire first to warmog first. Warmog gives you 900 more hp when fully stacked, putting you over 3000 with just the one item. Having almost 150 armor without any items means I can build MR if it's needed first and still am able to tank physical damage. I haven't gotten past the point of boots 2, warmog, banshie, thornmail, but there are several items you can fit into those last two slots.

I start at wolves, and am able to kill two without help and still get to blue even if they pull it the second it spawns. I full clear, killing red before smite is up and using it on double golems, then buy boots. When attacking wraiths, you get off your first auto, then immediately powerball so before they can auto, saving yourself hp. I finish a madreds, but not wriggles because it helps for early dragons and red and blue buff kills. I use 1/19/11 I think, getting reduced damage taken, which allows me to only use 2-3 hp pots during my first clear depending on how good of a pull I get (I've done a full clear and only used 1 hp pot before). I use arp red, and full armor runes in the rest. I know you get twice the value from magic resist blues but that doesn't help you clear the jungle and keep up hp.

Also I fucking love jungle rammus, you can gank with powerball speed even if they have wards up.
Seuss
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States10536 Posts
November 14 2011 09:42 GMT
#205
For anyone who was curious about how the speed boost on Rammus' Powerball works, here's how.

Upon activating Powerball 2.5% of Rammus' flat movespeed (i.e. base + flat bonuses such as boots) is added to his movespeed as flat bonus. Every quarter second thereafter another 5% is added until Powerball ends (reaching 157.5% total just before Powerball ends). Diminishing returns apply, but because Powerball's bonus counts as a flat modifier it is multiplied by % boosts such as Ghost or Zeal.
"I am not able to carry all this people alone, for they are too heavy for me." -Moses (Numbers 11:14)
JackDino
Profile Joined July 2010
Gabon6219 Posts
November 14 2011 09:53 GMT
#206
Rylais is worthless on rammus, the slow from rylais is worse than the actual slow from powerball and you'd only do a 15% aoe slow whenever your ult is up, better to buy a warmogs for the same amount of gold and get a lot more health which scales better with your W. It only adds 24dmg/sec to your ult which only really affects squishies since you have no mpen, you do more damage with a wriggles then with a rylais+ult.
This isnt Broodwar so I dont owe anyone respect for beating me. -arb
Terranasaur
Profile Joined May 2011
United States2085 Posts
November 14 2011 22:39 GMT
#207
I think the point of rylais is to get it after Atmogs. Right? I think by the time the game gets that far the purpose is less about adding DPS to Tremors than it is about adding the super-slow. Rylais + powerball.
Decisions Determine Destiny - Terranasaur#1719 D3 #557 SC2 3DS FC: 2423-3623-8068
Seuss
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States10536 Posts
November 15 2011 01:09 GMT
#208
If you want a super slow get Randuin's. Rammus is literally the best character in the game for the active, and a 35% slow is ridiculously better than 15%. Randuin's also makes you far tankier than Rylai's, particularly against the AD carries who should now be sporting near-full builds.
"I am not able to carry all this people alone, for they are too heavy for me." -Moses (Numbers 11:14)
Terranasaur
Profile Joined May 2011
United States2085 Posts
November 15 2011 04:03 GMT
#209
So randuins after Atmogs or instead of Atmogs? I can't imagine having the gold for both.
Decisions Determine Destiny - Terranasaur#1719 D3 #557 SC2 3DS FC: 2423-3623-8068
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-15 04:05:49
November 15 2011 04:05 GMT
#210
On November 15 2011 13:03 Terranasaur wrote:
So randuins after Atmogs or instead of Atmogs? I can't imagine having the gold for both.

HoG early, then atmogs. Choose between finishing Randuin or selling HoG when you're on 6 items, depending on whether you need Randuin's against a big AD threat.
Moderator
Craton
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States17236 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-15 05:13:53
November 15 2011 05:11 GMT
#211
Wriggles/boots 1 > philo > warmogs > shurelyas > armor/mr items as needed

Sometimes I skip philo, but the lack of mp5 is really noticeable (I give up all blues past first), so you trade being a little tankier for needing more pots/recalls. Fits his need for hp >>> mr/armor since he has really low base hp and really high mr/armor from w.

Rylai's on rammus is trash, do not get it ever. If you want a slow, get Randuin's like already mentioned.
twitch.tv/cratonz
JackDino
Profile Joined July 2010
Gabon6219 Posts
November 15 2011 08:22 GMT
#212
On November 15 2011 13:03 Terranasaur wrote:
So randuins after Atmogs or instead of Atmogs? I can't imagine having the gold for both.

Just gank more and you'll be able to fulfill your wildest dreams.
This isnt Broodwar so I dont owe anyone respect for beating me. -arb
Terranasaur
Profile Joined May 2011
United States2085 Posts
November 15 2011 08:32 GMT
#213
On November 15 2011 17:22 JackDino wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 13:03 Terranasaur wrote:
So randuins after Atmogs or instead of Atmogs? I can't imagine having the gold for both.

Just gank more and you'll be able to fulfill your wildest dreams.


lol. I'm pretty new to LoL (Summoner Level 21) so I'm certainly not an expert. Every now and then I'll get snowballing really hard in a game with Rammus and could probably get there. Just today I was playing for the lulz and built him with Mobility Boots, Deathcap, Void Staff and Rylai. Flying into people at warp speed with powerball and blowing them up was pretty fun, but his AP ratios aren't good enough for something silly like that to be viable.

Still. It was fun to try.

At what point in the game to you leave the jungle and start to gank?

I take DBC first and start at wolves. I kill them, and then blue, and then look for a gank. I can usually hit mid hard enough to either get a takedown or at least force a bluepill, and then i proceed to the other jungle. I then just run around blasting whatever camps are up, trying to keep both buffs, and ganking whoever is pushed past the river. Is this about right or are there some goals I am missing? I really can't kill the dragon without help until much later in the game....
Decisions Determine Destiny - Terranasaur#1719 D3 #557 SC2 3DS FC: 2423-3623-8068
JackDino
Profile Joined July 2010
Gabon6219 Posts
November 15 2011 08:42 GMT
#214
Buy a pdancer and you'll get more kills than you can ever imagine. Jungle when there are creeps in your jungle and gank when you see an opening/are pretty sure you can make one.
This isnt Broodwar so I dont owe anyone respect for beating me. -arb
Terranasaur
Profile Joined May 2011
United States2085 Posts
November 18 2011 17:43 GMT
#215
On November 15 2011 17:42 JackDino wrote:
Buy a pdancer and you'll get more kills than you can ever imagine. Jungle when there are creeps in your jungle and gank when you see an opening/are pretty sure you can make one.


this has been working awesome. I've gone randuins into pdancer and am loving it. Lategame I'll have mob boots, Randuins, Pdancer, wriggles, and maybe something else and I fly into team fights at warp speed and blow up everything.

Any ideas on what to run on Rammus with the new masteries?
Decisions Determine Destiny - Terranasaur#1719 D3 #557 SC2 3DS FC: 2423-3623-8068
turdburgler
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
England6749 Posts
November 28 2011 15:16 GMT
#216
im running some offense tank build, offence up to armor pen and then defence the rest, not confident its the best but it seems to make really decent jungle clear speeds
gtrsrs
Profile Joined June 2010
United States9109 Posts
November 28 2011 15:31 GMT
#217
On November 19 2011 02:43 Terranasaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 17:42 JackDino wrote:
Buy a pdancer and you'll get more kills than you can ever imagine. Jungle when there are creeps in your jungle and gank when you see an opening/are pretty sure you can make one.


this has been working awesome. I've gone randuins into pdancer and am loving it. Lategame I'll have mob boots, Randuins, Pdancer, wriggles, and maybe something else and I fly into team fights at warp speed and blow up everything.

Any ideas on what to run on Rammus with the new masteries?


honver runs 0/21/9 taking all the masteries you'd assume would be good on rammus including juggernaut, initiator, etc

i'm inclined to agree with this setup!
i play ... hearthstone =\^.^/= Winterfox
Craton
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States17236 Posts
November 28 2011 15:42 GMT
#218
I've done 0/21/9 and 0/24/6

Really just any setup with heavy defense works well on Rammus.
twitch.tv/cratonz
mr_tolkien
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
France8631 Posts
November 28 2011 16:06 GMT
#219
Is wriggles worth it on Rammus ? I have trouble with my jungle clears past 15 minutes, it gets waaaaaaaaay too slow to me :/
The legend of Darien lives on
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
November 28 2011 16:13 GMT
#220
Yes.
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
November 28 2011 16:17 GMT
#221
what the fuck?

defensive... setup... rammus?

wat?

21/0/9

all day

every day

no I'm not kidding, defensive tree sucks donkey dick.
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
Sponkz
Profile Joined May 2011
Denmark4564 Posts
November 28 2011 16:34 GMT
#222
21/9/0 you mean. Veteran scars > flash reduction and neutral buff duration
hi
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-28 16:37:28
November 28 2011 16:36 GMT
#223
Wouldn't say that for certain. I feel like either you go like 30 defense or you go 21/0/9 or 0/21/9, I dunno. If I'm going 30 defense I'm building wriggles and warmogs and atmas though.
I honestly like the -2 minion damage, -2 damage, and +6 damage return for jungling. If you're getting these, maxes sense to get the other shit. Also mercenary pretty good on rammus if it's good on anyone. Fucker is a master of getting assists.
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
November 28 2011 16:43 GMT
#224
On November 29 2011 01:34 Sponkz wrote:
21/9/0 you mean. Veteran scars > flash reduction and neutral buff duration

no it's not. especially since you also get mana masteries.

and if I were going 21/9/0, I'd get bladed armor just for the slightly faster clear times.

seriously, warmog's is core on the moose, why would I care about those tiny HP numbers.
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
Sponkz
Profile Joined May 2011
Denmark4564 Posts
November 28 2011 16:45 GMT
#225
Why would i care about 3 mp5? Seems completely useless.
hi
Alay
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States660 Posts
November 28 2011 16:50 GMT
#226
I've been jungling with 0/10/20 with good success.

Honestly, all the trees except the utility one and a few random boxes here and there feel really lackluster.
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-28 16:56:56
November 28 2011 16:55 GMT
#227
On November 29 2011 01:45 Sponkz wrote:
Why would i care about 3 mp5? Seems completely useless.

Because once you start giving up blue buffs Rammus has a hell of a time keeping his mana up.

Not to mention expanded mind is boss late game. 216 extra mana is like, an extra powerball + taunt before you run out of mana. Real good.


On November 29 2011 01:50 Alay wrote:
I've been jungling with 0/10/20 with good success.

Honestly, all the trees except the utility one and a few random boxes here and there feel really lackluster.

... that's retarded. if you put 20 points in utility, why in fuck's name wouldn't you grab the best Mastery in the whole game?

and the offensive tree is just miles above the other ones right now. it's not even close.
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
Craton
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States17236 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-28 17:01:30
November 28 2011 16:59 GMT
#228
That's why you get shurelya's. That shit is so broken on Rammus.

On November 29 2011 01:06 mr_tolkien wrote:
Is wriggles worth it on Rammus ? I have trouble with my jungle clears past 15 minutes, it gets waaaaaaaaay too slow to me :/

You pretty much have to get Wriggles on Rammus to clear effectively.
twitch.tv/cratonz
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
November 28 2011 17:01 GMT
#229
reverie's good on Rammus, but it's usually a late game item for me. Usually sit on Philo for a long ass time.
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
Sponkz
Profile Joined May 2011
Denmark4564 Posts
November 28 2011 18:08 GMT
#230
I honestly never get a philo early on, and i don't feel starved with mana issues.
hi
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
November 28 2011 18:16 GMT
#231
On November 29 2011 03:08 Sponkz wrote:
I honestly never get a philo early on, and i don't feel starved with mana issues.

if you're playing rammus and not hogging blue buff and not building philo/catalyst and not speccing mana masteries/runes and not having mana problems... then... uh, I got nothing, that just doesn't make any fucking sense.
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
Terranasaur
Profile Joined May 2011
United States2085 Posts
November 28 2011 18:25 GMT
#232
On November 29 2011 03:16 Mogwai wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 29 2011 03:08 Sponkz wrote:
I honestly never get a philo early on, and i don't feel starved with mana issues.

if you're playing rammus and not hogging blue buff and not building philo/catalyst and not speccing mana masteries/runes and not having mana problems... then... uh, I got nothing, that just doesn't make any fucking sense.



Same. I have Mana issues up until very late game garbage time build a frozen heart for the hell of it.
Decisions Determine Destiny - Terranasaur#1719 D3 #557 SC2 3DS FC: 2423-3623-8068
gtrsrs
Profile Joined June 2010
United States9109 Posts
November 28 2011 19:05 GMT
#233
On November 29 2011 03:16 Mogwai wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 29 2011 03:08 Sponkz wrote:
I honestly never get a philo early on, and i don't feel starved with mana issues.

if you're playing rammus and not hogging blue buff and not building philo/catalyst and not speccing mana masteries/runes and not having mana problems... then... uh, I got nothing, that just doesn't make any fucking sense.


i haven't had any mana issues either
same as with skarner, i don't see how you guys use all your mana so poorly. you could just... not spam skills in the jungle once you have wriggles. defensive ball curl isn't even expensive, you know you don't need to taunt every creep to kill them right
i play ... hearthstone =\^.^/= Winterfox
Roffles *
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
Pitcairn19291 Posts
November 28 2011 19:06 GMT
#234
I'm lazy. I like powerballing to places to get stuff done faster.
God Bless
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
November 28 2011 19:11 GMT
#235
On November 29 2011 04:05 gtrsrs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 29 2011 03:16 Mogwai wrote:
On November 29 2011 03:08 Sponkz wrote:
I honestly never get a philo early on, and i don't feel starved with mana issues.

if you're playing rammus and not hogging blue buff and not building philo/catalyst and not speccing mana masteries/runes and not having mana problems... then... uh, I got nothing, that just doesn't make any fucking sense.


i haven't had any mana issues either
same as with skarner, i don't see how you guys use all your mana so poorly. you could just... not spam skills in the jungle once you have wriggles. defensive ball curl isn't even expensive, you know you don't need to taunt every creep to kill them right

sure, if you're just using DBC in the jungle, he's not that intensive. but then why are you playing rammus again? without powerballing all over the opposing jungle/lanes like a motherfucker, I just don't understand why I'm not just playing Warwick or something. Powerball -> Taunt -> DBC for a gank eats like 200 mana. Powerball to beat the enemy jungler to their blue -> DBC + Ult eats 250. Without using my powerball for mobility, I just don't get why I'm playing Rammus. And when using lots of Powerball, your mana pool gets raped.
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
turdburgler
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
England6749 Posts
November 28 2011 19:12 GMT
#236
On November 29 2011 04:06 Roffles wrote:
I'm lazy. I like powerballing to places to get stuff done faster.


thats not lazy thats improved clear times
Alay
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States660 Posts
November 28 2011 19:51 GMT
#237
On November 29 2011 01:55 Mogwai wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 29 2011 01:45 Sponkz wrote:
Why would i care about 3 mp5? Seems completely useless.

Because once you start giving up blue buffs Rammus has a hell of a time keeping his mana up.

Not to mention expanded mind is boss late game. 216 extra mana is like, an extra powerball + taunt before you run out of mana. Real good.


Show nested quote +
On November 29 2011 01:50 Alay wrote:
I've been jungling with 0/10/20 with good success.

Honestly, all the trees except the utility one and a few random boxes here and there feel really lackluster.

... that's retarded. if you put 20 points in utility, why in fuck's name wouldn't you grab the best Mastery in the whole game?

and the offensive tree is just miles above the other ones right now. it's not even close.


Because smite timer is meh, when it already times out fine for my starting three runs (after that, only really used on drag/baron), and flash timer isn't as useful to me as the 6 reflect damage to speed up/make easier those stick first few runs. In all reality though, the 20% bonus, the free gp5, and the mana regen, plus veteran scars is all you really need, the rest is fluff.

What exactly in the offense tree is all that special again? the 3% life steal for three points? The little attack speed steroids with some pen (probably the only really good line)? The final box? (lol) AP and % boosts aren't really all that useful for him, and I ain't building crit to make that line worthwhile.



Reverie is a fun item on him, and always useful. It synergizes well if you're going for a philo sustain opening to jungle (I prefer catalyst, so I usually go the veil route.) The health and CDR are pretty boss too.
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-28 20:06:48
November 28 2011 20:06 GMT
#238
On November 29 2011 04:51 Alay wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 29 2011 01:55 Mogwai wrote:
On November 29 2011 01:45 Sponkz wrote:
Why would i care about 3 mp5? Seems completely useless.

Because once you start giving up blue buffs Rammus has a hell of a time keeping his mana up.

Not to mention expanded mind is boss late game. 216 extra mana is like, an extra powerball + taunt before you run out of mana. Real good.


On November 29 2011 01:50 Alay wrote:
I've been jungling with 0/10/20 with good success.

Honestly, all the trees except the utility one and a few random boxes here and there feel really lackluster.

... that's retarded. if you put 20 points in utility, why in fuck's name wouldn't you grab the best Mastery in the whole game?

and the offensive tree is just miles above the other ones right now. it's not even close.


Because smite timer is meh, when it already times out fine for my starting three runs (after that, only really used on drag/baron), and flash timer isn't as useful to me as the 6 reflect damage to speed up/make easier those stick first few runs. In all reality though, the 20% bonus, the free gp5, and the mana regen, plus veteran scars is all you really need, the rest is fluff.

What exactly in the offense tree is all that special again? the 3% life steal for three points? The little attack speed steroids with some pen (probably the only really good line)? The final box? (lol) AP and % boosts aren't really all that useful for him, and I ain't building crit to make that line worthwhile.



Reverie is a fun item on him, and always useful. It synergizes well if you're going for a philo sustain opening to jungle (I prefer catalyst, so I usually go the veil route.) The health and CDR are pretty boss too.

um, literally everything on the left side of the offensive tree is retardedly efficient point for point. I run this on Rammus: http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-3-0-1-4-4-0-4-1-1-0-1-0-0-1-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-3-0-1-3-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0. Atma's and PD are both crazy on Rammus, the crit line is strong on him.

and bladed armor and veteran's scars look like garbage next to mastermind. please, it's not even close.
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
Alay
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States660 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-28 20:23:51
November 28 2011 20:21 GMT
#239
On November 29 2011 05:06 Mogwai wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 29 2011 04:51 Alay wrote:
On November 29 2011 01:55 Mogwai wrote:
On November 29 2011 01:45 Sponkz wrote:
Why would i care about 3 mp5? Seems completely useless.

Because once you start giving up blue buffs Rammus has a hell of a time keeping his mana up.

Not to mention expanded mind is boss late game. 216 extra mana is like, an extra powerball + taunt before you run out of mana. Real good.


On November 29 2011 01:50 Alay wrote:
I've been jungling with 0/10/20 with good success.

Honestly, all the trees except the utility one and a few random boxes here and there feel really lackluster.

... that's retarded. if you put 20 points in utility, why in fuck's name wouldn't you grab the best Mastery in the whole game?

and the offensive tree is just miles above the other ones right now. it's not even close.


Because smite timer is meh, when it already times out fine for my starting three runs (after that, only really used on drag/baron), and flash timer isn't as useful to me as the 6 reflect damage to speed up/make easier those stick first few runs. In all reality though, the 20% bonus, the free gp5, and the mana regen, plus veteran scars is all you really need, the rest is fluff.

What exactly in the offense tree is all that special again? the 3% life steal for three points? The little attack speed steroids with some pen (probably the only really good line)? The final box? (lol) AP and % boosts aren't really all that useful for him, and I ain't building crit to make that line worthwhile.



Reverie is a fun item on him, and always useful. It synergizes well if you're going for a philo sustain opening to jungle (I prefer catalyst, so I usually go the veil route.) The health and CDR are pretty boss too.

um, literally everything on the left side of the offensive tree is retardedly efficient point for point. I run this on Rammus: http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-3-0-1-4-4-0-4-1-1-0-1-0-0-1-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-3-0-1-3-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0. Atma's and PD are both crazy on Rammus, the crit line is strong on him.

and bladed armor and veteran's scars look like garbage next to mastermind. please, it's not even close.


To each their own. You're building more offensive, I'm building more defensive. If I was more focused on doing deeps, I'd probably pick up the pens.

I generally don't build atma's unless I go mogs/cape, thus the extra crit line isn't helping me.

I still disagree on mastermind. If I'm taking smite, it doesn't really seem all that. It probably is better than bladed armor though, comparing the two directly. It only is helping my flash though, since the smite is already working fine. I go gp10 quints, not flat health, so veteran scars is not really negotiable if I want to have the option to gank pre-back--Not something that is always worth it, but definitely an option I like to have open.

edit: so yeah, http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-3-0-4-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-3-0-0-3-1-4-0-1-0-4-0-3-0-1 might work out better. I really haven't gotten enough practice with the new masteries to see what I like, and with the jungle revamp soon it's hard to find the will to put the effort into idealizing post-mastery until that hits :/
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
November 28 2011 20:29 GMT
#240
flat hp quints went out of style 9 months ago. Saying that 30 HP is nonnegotiable because it's the only way you can gank pre-back is pretty stupid, especially when you're taking pretty mediocre quints on a jungler instead. Why you would run anything other than flat armor, attack speed or attack damage on quints as rammus is so far beyond me...

anyway, I'm done arguing because you spec perseverance over intelligence and throw away a point in scout. do w/e works for you I guess.
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
-Kato-
Profile Joined June 2010
Spain1146 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-28 20:50:51
November 28 2011 20:46 GMT
#241
Mogwai's masteries are definitely better. Alay why would you use 7 points in Greed and Perseverance, really not good masteries.

I think you need to try 21 offense Rammus. It really is much better than any defensive or utility setup you can get with actual masteries.

Recently I'm playing Rammus with 21/0/9, flat ad reds and quints, armor and mr. Cloth+5> boots> wriggles> philo+hog (2 GPs may seem too much but Rammus gets a lot from both Shurelias and Randuins, so I can't find a reason not to buy both)> aegis > warmogs (finishing Shurelias and/or Randuins anywhere you wish).

Shurelias is really great on Rammus because you want to itemize HP, you get the regens, and the CDR is also huge, DBC'd Rammus wont die so the more you can be DBC'd the tankier. Also more taunts, and the active. Too good.

I see why you would want to buy PD on Rammus but I just never find the moment to get it. Even if fed I usually prefer to tank up because the later the game goes on the more you want to be tanking/allowing teammates do the damage than killing. Killing is early game Rammus, late game let your team do it. I feel if you manage to PB into the carry and taunt him, he will die or be instagibbed regardless of if you have a PD or not.
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
November 28 2011 20:51 GMT
#242
I usually do wriggle's + boots -> philo -> Warmog's -> Atma's -> PD, subbing in PD before Warmog's if I'm farming stupid fast. Rammus with Wriggle's + Zeal is crazy if it's a really open midgame because you can just zoom around to open lanes and solo mothafuckas like a boss.
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
Terranasaur
Profile Joined May 2011
United States2085 Posts
November 28 2011 21:04 GMT
#243
On November 29 2011 05:51 Mogwai wrote:
I usually do wriggle's + boots -> philo -> Warmog's -> Atma's -> PD, subbing in PD before Warmog's if I'm farming stupid fast. Rammus with Wriggle's + Zeal is crazy if it's a really open midgame because you can just zoom around to open lanes and solo mothafuckas like a boss.


I thought you were the one that said Randuins is the best on Rammus?

I don't know. Atmogs is strong on Rammus. Randuins is stong on Rammus. Just about everything is strong on Rammus.
Decisions Determine Destiny - Terranasaur#1719 D3 #557 SC2 3DS FC: 2423-3623-8068
spinesheath
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany8679 Posts
November 28 2011 21:10 GMT
#244
On November 29 2011 05:46 -Kato- wrote:
Mogwai's masteries are definitely better. Alay why would you use 7 points in Greed and Perseverance, really not good masteries.

I think you need to try 21 offense Rammus. It really is much better than any defensive or utility setup you can get with actual masteries.

Recently I'm playing Rammus with 21/0/9, flat ad reds and quints, armor and mr. Cloth+5> boots> wriggles> philo+hog (2 GPs may seem too much but Rammus gets a lot from both Shurelias and Randuins, so I can't find a reason not to buy both)> aegis > warmogs (finishing Shurelias and/or Randuins anywhere you wish).

Shurelias is really great on Rammus because you want to itemize HP, you get the regens, and the CDR is also huge, DBC'd Rammus wont die so the more you can be DBC'd the tankier. Also more taunts, and the active. Too good.

I see why you would want to buy PD on Rammus but I just never find the moment to get it. Even if fed I usually prefer to tank up because the later the game goes on the more you want to be tanking/allowing teammates do the damage than killing. Killing is early game Rammus, late game let your team do it. I feel if you manage to PB into the carry and taunt him, he will die or be instagibbed regardless of if you have a PD or not.

You don't find the moment for PD because you get 2 g/10 items. Sure you want the items those build into, but you still waste a lot of money on a stat that doesn't pay off very quickly. And since you don't finish those item until VERY late into the game, your whole key item build essentially is set back by ~1000 gold.

Get g/10 items quickly if you want the items that they build into quickly as well. At least on champions that rely on solid items during midgame.
If you have a good reason to disagree with the above, please tell me. Thank you.
-Kato-
Profile Joined June 2010
Spain1146 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-28 21:38:28
November 28 2011 21:36 GMT
#245
But, 250 HP on Rammus, great. Mana regen on Rammus, who as Mog said, is mana hungry without blue, also great. Even if they didnt give g/10, do you think a zeal is better?

Ok, its a 1k setback on the whole build. But... Rammus is so good with pieces of build, is there any item you really need to rush on Rammus that gives you much more than bits and pieces of HP and resists?
Terranasaur
Profile Joined May 2011
United States2085 Posts
November 28 2011 21:46 GMT
#246
Once I have wriggle, randuins, and mob boots i feel pretty beast mode and everything after that is just luxury. The PD is great for flying in at warp speed and just absolutely blowing shit up. Shurelyias is great I'm sure but I never build it. Aegis is nice for more armor and damage. I sometimes get a Frozen Heart because I like to Powerball everywhere. Warmogs after Randuins is what I do if I'm fed and I feel like taking people down 5v1.
Decisions Determine Destiny - Terranasaur#1719 D3 #557 SC2 3DS FC: 2423-3623-8068
spinesheath
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany8679 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-28 22:00:38
November 28 2011 21:58 GMT
#247
On November 29 2011 06:36 -Kato- wrote:
But, 250 HP on Rammus, great. Mana regen on Rammus, who as Mog said, is mana hungry without blue, also great. Even if they didnt give g/10, do you think a zeal is better?

Ok, its a 1k setback on the whole build. But... Rammus is so good with pieces of build, is there any item you really need to rush on Rammus that gives you much more than bits and pieces of HP and resists?

Except for the g/10 items, all T2/T3 items have more than 100% efficiency one way or another. Many 2-3k gold items are extremely efficient. g/10 items may catch up to base items in x minutes, but people like to forget that it's not common practice stack 6 base items before thinking about upgrading.

Pretty much all the decent items on Rammus give you a significant boost in strength if you finish them in a timely fashion.

A zeal MIGHT be better in some situations. But I was thinking more along the lines of grabbing your Warmogs or just a Belt early, which might leave you with enough of a defensive puffer to go PD and go to town. Early Warmogs makes Rammus unkillable.
If you have a good reason to disagree with the above, please tell me. Thank you.
Alay
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States660 Posts
November 28 2011 21:59 GMT
#248
On November 29 2011 05:46 -Kato- wrote:
Mogwai's masteries are definitely better. Alay why would you use 7 points in Greed and Perseverance, really not good masteries.

I think you need to try 21 offense Rammus. It really is much better than any defensive or utility setup you can get with actual masteries.


I'll give it a try, why not. I like the gp5 and the regen stats, because I go catalyst to sustain over Phil stone (I generally don't get a reverie, but I usually get a mid/early-mid BV, so the catalyst helps more than a stone I'd likely sell or never utilize.)

Does offense Rammus lock you into wriggle's to work though? Or can you slug through with phil -> mogs -> atma -> wit's end/pd?
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
November 28 2011 22:01 GMT
#249
you could probably make it through without wriggle's, but I feel like a much much weaker counterjungling and dragoning threat without wriggle's.
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
Terranasaur
Profile Joined May 2011
United States2085 Posts
November 28 2011 22:02 GMT
#250
I don't think Wriggles is a "need" item on Rammus. I buy it every time but thats just because it is so darn helpful. By the time you have it, you can certainly clear without. Just not as fast.

Decisions Determine Destiny - Terranasaur#1719 D3 #557 SC2 3DS FC: 2423-3623-8068
Terranasaur
Profile Joined May 2011
United States2085 Posts
November 28 2011 22:02 GMT
#251
On November 29 2011 07:01 Mogwai wrote:
you could probably make it through without wriggle's, but I feel like a much much weaker counterjungling and dragoning threat without wriggle's.


what he said
Decisions Determine Destiny - Terranasaur#1719 D3 #557 SC2 3DS FC: 2423-3623-8068
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
November 28 2011 22:22 GMT
#252
So basically the same reason as to why you get wriggles on every other jungler.
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-28 22:25:49
November 28 2011 22:25 GMT
#253
On November 29 2011 07:22 Slayer91 wrote:
So basically the same reason as to why you get wriggles on every other jungler.

NOT AMUMU OR FIDDLE!

EDIT: but yea, precisely.
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
-Kato-
Profile Joined June 2010
Spain1146 Posts
November 28 2011 22:27 GMT
#254
Ok thanks spine, always so knowledgable!

I think Wriggles on 21off Rammus is a must. Allows to jungle full hp always, clear faster, and gives ad+armor (which turns into more ad). With my runes I usually have 158 AD at lvl 6 with wriggles and DBC on. That is a fuckton of AD so early.
Terranasaur
Profile Joined May 2011
United States2085 Posts
November 28 2011 22:31 GMT
#255
I haven't tried it with offense tree yet but I'm going to as soon as I can.

Decisions Determine Destiny - Terranasaur#1719 D3 #557 SC2 3DS FC: 2423-3623-8068
Terranasaur
Profile Joined May 2011
United States2085 Posts
December 01 2011 18:43 GMT
#256
So how bad does the new jungle suck? Any tips on laning as Rammus? He's my favorite champion so I don't want to put him on the bench.
Decisions Determine Destiny - Terranasaur#1719 D3 #557 SC2 3DS FC: 2423-3623-8068
Alay
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States660 Posts
December 01 2011 19:50 GMT
#257
On December 02 2011 03:43 Terranasaur wrote:
So how bad does the new jungle suck? Any tips on laning as Rammus? He's my favorite champion so I don't want to put him on the bench.


New jungle is horrible :/ But jungle Rammus still works, and he's maybe even a little faster to clear--though not hitting that 4 on first clear kinda sucks.

My tip for laning Rammus would be, just don't. He's miles better as a jungler, since his kit is incredible to gank with.
Terranasaur
Profile Joined May 2011
United States2085 Posts
December 01 2011 21:03 GMT
#258
Maybe I'll have to start playing some more dominion. The problem with Rammus on SR right now is not clear speed. I clear faster than ever. Starting at blue with a vamp sceptre, i can kill blue, wolves, wraiths, and be whacking red while my smite still has 12 seconds of cooldown. sometimes i even get lucky and dont even need to use smite on red, but save it for big brother golem.

I just feel like my ganks don't have any power to them because I'm so far behind on items and levels. it seriously takes me like 30 minutes to get my randuins up with the new jungle.
Decisions Determine Destiny - Terranasaur#1719 D3 #557 SC2 3DS FC: 2423-3623-8068
Seuss
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States10536 Posts
December 01 2011 22:53 GMT
#259
Your ganks don't have any power behind them because you're ganking. Every gank puts you behind unless you get a kill or don't have to share assist gold. Almost all other results are a net losses, including 90% of kills where you share assist gold.

Just imagine that every time you attempt to gank the game takes 100g from you. Depending on circumstances it's not always that bad, and in other circumstances it's even worse. But on average that's about what you're losing.
"I am not able to carry all this people alone, for they are too heavy for me." -Moses (Numbers 11:14)
Terranasaur
Profile Joined May 2011
United States2085 Posts
December 01 2011 23:04 GMT
#260
Exactly.... and since I'm used to running into those ganks at Warp Speed and blowing up everything in my path, I'm feeling really, really gimped.
Decisions Determine Destiny - Terranasaur#1719 D3 #557 SC2 3DS FC: 2423-3623-8068
obesechicken13
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10467 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-18 05:13:51
December 18 2011 05:13 GMT
#261
I can't seem to farm very well. I don't know how people do it. Thankfully at my level very few people actually farm really well.

I've been going rammus and it's very important that what I'm doing is correct. I tend to open boots first, then go into warmogs, and then into either thornmail or force of nature depending on how unbalanced my enemy's team is. If of their top three main damage dealers, 2 are AD, I go thornmail, if 2 ar AP then I get FoN. Is this right? Since I max Rammus W first, E second, does that give me the most survivability?

(people do focus me).
I think in our modern age technology has evolved to become more addictive. The things that don't give us pleasure aren't used as much. Work was never meant to be fun, but doing it makes us happier in the long run.
barbsq
Profile Joined November 2009
United States5348 Posts
December 18 2011 05:23 GMT
#262
more often than not, i find frozen heart or GA to be better sources of armor than thornmail
Look at this guy, constantly diluting himself! (╮°-°)╮┳━┳ ( ╯°□°)╯ ┻━┻
RogerX
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
New Zealand3180 Posts
December 18 2011 06:03 GMT
#263
Banned from most of my games :/, Rammus is bloody amazing, he just doesn't die.
Stick it up. take it up. step aside and see the world
obesechicken13
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10467 Posts
December 18 2011 06:29 GMT
#264
Always live. Never Die.

Ok.
I think in our modern age technology has evolved to become more addictive. The things that don't give us pleasure aren't used as much. Work was never meant to be fun, but doing it makes us happier in the long run.
Mystogun
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States392 Posts
December 22 2011 07:50 GMT
#265
I just played a couple of games with rammus since he's free, and i've had really wonderful results.

I've been starting boots, then wriggles, warmogs, and just going from there. he clears so insanely fast. just wondering which runes you guys are running on him, since i basically stopped going to solomid when i found out there was a TL LoL community

I've been running AS reds, armor yellows and quints, and mr/lvl blues. I'm fine with most of them, but I was torn on what's best for the quints slot.
"What I'm sayin' is that there are known knowns and there are known unknowns, but there's also unknown unknowns, things that we don't know we don't know." | SC2: NoiSe.730 | LoL: Galladiator
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-22 07:57:03
December 22 2011 07:55 GMT
#266
I run armor pen + armor + mres/lvl, because its the same page I use for bruisers and I don't have many rune pages to pick from. He's the only jungler I don't use my standard attack speed + arpen + armor + mres/lvl runes.

I find that rammus has an equally fast initial clear to udyr but is left with slightly more life.

and i def do regrowth + pot, b for boots + philo, then prolly b again for oracles/hog or both.
arnath
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1317 Posts
February 04 2012 00:26 GMT
#267
What's the current consensus on whether or not to buy Wriggles on Rammus? I've noticed that the pros don't seem to but I feel like I kill jungle mobs REALLY slowly with level 1 W and no Wriggles.
freelander
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
Hungary4707 Posts
February 04 2012 00:54 GMT
#268
maybe you should level your w ? O_O
And all is illuminated.
arnath
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1317 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-04 01:12:55
February 04 2012 01:12 GMT
#269
On February 04 2012 09:54 freelander wrote:
maybe you should level your w ? O_O

... My point is, as far as I know the generally accepted Rammus build does WQEE, R > E > Q > W with no Wriggles. I've tried this and I feel like I kill jungle stuff really slowly and was just curious as to whether people feel like that's just the tradeoff for Rammus' gank potential or there's something I'm doing wrong (like I should be grabbing early level 2 W instead of early level 2 E or maybe that Wriggles is a better idea than people seem to think).
R04R
Profile Joined March 2009
United States1631 Posts
February 04 2012 02:43 GMT
#270
I'd only get E at level 3 if I wanted to gank at level 3, otherwise I'd put another point in W and wait till 4. The OP says get level 2 Q but imo you can still be strapped for mana early on and w gives more consistent results for unchanged mana cost. R>E>W>Q?
ô¿ô
Mystogun
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States392 Posts
February 04 2012 03:55 GMT
#271
i've been going double gp10 and then wriggles
"What I'm sayin' is that there are known knowns and there are known unknowns, but there's also unknown unknowns, things that we don't know we don't know." | SC2: NoiSe.730 | LoL: Galladiator
Terranasaur
Profile Joined May 2011
United States2085 Posts
February 04 2012 04:02 GMT
#272
No on wriggles. No on Thornmail unless you REALLY need it. If they have 2 AD, Randuin is still better.

Go Philo and HoG. Into Randuins and Reverie. After that is situational. Frozen Heart is good. Phantom Dancer is good.

WQWE R>E>W>Q unless you gank at 3. Then go WQE.
Decisions Determine Destiny - Terranasaur#1719 D3 #557 SC2 3DS FC: 2423-3623-8068
benefluence
Profile Joined January 2010
United States158 Posts
February 04 2012 05:08 GMT
#273
Hey, lower ELO Player here, trying to get into jungle rammus, with a couple questions:

should I be running anything other than blue-wolves-wraiths-red-golems for an opening path? (keeping in mind that I'm unlikely to get a strong leash in normals

What are the salient differences between item openings, e.g.
- cloth 5
- vampiric
- regrowth
- boots

Are Boots of Mobility the standard on Rammus? It seems like a lot of people in this thread run them. I assume 'need tenacity/mr, go mercs' is typical, but are Ninja Tabi ever worth it? It seems like they'd help his jungle quite a bit - more ad, more power to DBC, and less damage, both from armor and the passive (all jungle creeps do is auto attack), plus you can get them earlier.
NeoIllusions
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States37500 Posts
February 04 2012 05:12 GMT
#274
Your Jangle path is correct. Wolves Blue would be faster obviously but you'd need help.

- Cloth 5 is obsolete more or less now. Since the new Jungle changes, most of the small camps don't hurt as much. Thus, you don't need the extra armor and hp regen.
- Vamp Scept is a terrible opening. Rammus doesn't need Wriggle's and unless you're going Zeke's for some reason...
- Standard opening is Regrowth. Ties back to weaker small camps in current jungle and you build Philo asap out of the Regrowth.
- Boots are also acceptable.

I never Boots 5. It's either Merc or Tabi for me. You build depending on enemy team comp. Ends up being Merc 90% of the time.
ModeratorFor the Glory that is TeamLiquid (-9 | 155) | Discord: NeoIllusions#1984
barbsq
Profile Joined November 2009
United States5348 Posts
February 04 2012 05:24 GMT
#275
boots 5 is pretty much only good for hyper-ganking champions, so you get between lanes faster. Technically, I suppose you could play him like that and just camp lanes like that, but I don't and I don't see it very often.
Look at this guy, constantly diluting himself! (╮°-°)╮┳━┳ ( ╯°□°)╯ ┻━┻
Terranasaur
Profile Joined May 2011
United States2085 Posts
February 04 2012 05:48 GMT
#276
Ya. Always open regrowth+1pot. Vamp scepter leaves you with more health, but doesn't build into anything useful. I used to do this too but I realized it was dumb.

Starting wolves, blue is better than blue, wolves because you can squeeze in second wolves after first wraiths.

I personally do mobility boots but there is something to be said for mercs as well. Like Neo said, Mob boots are for when you want to gank a lot and get between lanes quickly.

Tabi used to be bad, because dodges wouldn't proc your W. New Tabi is better, but not best. I think Mob or Mercs are your best bets. Mercs aren't really even ideal because IF the enemy team is CCing the damn Rammus, then your carries should rip them apart. I love the games when I get focused. Means the other team is screwed.
Decisions Determine Destiny - Terranasaur#1719 D3 #557 SC2 3DS FC: 2423-3623-8068
obesechicken13
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10467 Posts
March 28 2012 05:26 GMT
#277
So I've gotten a bit better at this game. Still haven't tried Rammus with a vamp scepter start in the jungle, but I do now jungle him exclusively (no more lane rammus). Rammus is almost always banned, and I find his clears to be rather slow. I don't like his ganks either since maxing E leaves very few levels in W making you a poor midgame tank, and maxing Q gives you a fair bit of burst for clear speed and ganking but it's a very easy to avoid short duration slow that again leaves your midgame tanking ability very low. I think he is still very strong as a mid->late game tank but I think he has problems with clear speed and ganking. Come midgame, I think greedy allies can essentially starve rammus of CS by taking any farm he tries to get.

I don't think rammus can simultaneously be a good jungler and a good midgame tank.
I'm also starting to like wriggles on him since he clears so slowly.
I think in our modern age technology has evolved to become more addictive. The things that don't give us pleasure aren't used as much. Work was never meant to be fun, but doing it makes us happier in the long run.
fUddO
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada197 Posts
March 28 2012 06:18 GMT
#278
Has anyone else felt like Rammus is really overrated right now? With counterjungling the flavour of the month, and Rammus' clear speed consistantly getting hit by the nerf bat, I'm always to scared to pick him in fear of a Mundo/Shyvana/Udyr/Trundle just coming along and easily shutting down all my camps.
Craton
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States17236 Posts
March 28 2012 07:05 GMT
#279
That's pretty much his only weakness. Ideally you have laners who are competent and pick lanes knowing the enemy will likely try to invade thereby allowing you to shut it down. Having your support warding wraith entrance early will also go a long way.

If you do have good warding, you can just counterjungle them when they go in yours and come out okay. It's also pretty easy to gank as Rammus to make up for lost jungle.
twitch.tv/cratonz
Dark_Chill
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada3353 Posts
August 04 2012 20:08 GMT
#280
I really want to get back into Rammus, even if he isn't incredibly viable, but I have no idea how to play him.

Do you start off boots3 or regrowth1? Both seem like valid options, but is one the better choice? Do boots leave him too low?

What runes should I use? Right now, I use armor yellow/red, scaling mr blue and ms quints, but I'm not sure if those are the best choice. Are the ms quints a good idea?

Finally, what am I supposed to level as Rammus? His W offers more survivability and clear speed, but then you have low ganking power. E seems to take a while to be effective for ganks. Q gives a bit more damage and slow, but it also costs more. No matter what ability I would level, it seems like I'd be heavily decreasing his abilities to do other things. Leveling Q means less surviability and a longer time for E to be good. Leveling W means less cc altogether. Leveling E means less damage and survivability.
Rammus just seems to be an extremely weird champion. I don't know many like him who can focus on certain abilities and have it completely change what they're able to do to such a degree.
CUTE MAKES RIGHT
Zato-1
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Chile4253 Posts
August 04 2012 20:25 GMT
#281
On August 05 2012 05:08 Dark_Chill wrote:
I really want to get back into Rammus, even if he isn't incredibly viable, but I have no idea how to play him.

Do you start off boots3 or regrowth1? Both seem like valid options, but is one the better choice? Do boots leave him too low?

What runes should I use? Right now, I use armor yellow/red, scaling mr blue and ms quints, but I'm not sure if those are the best choice. Are the ms quints a good idea?

Finally, what am I supposed to level as Rammus? His W offers more survivability and clear speed, but then you have low ganking power. E seems to take a while to be effective for ganks. Q gives a bit more damage and slow, but it also costs more. No matter what ability I would level, it seems like I'd be heavily decreasing his abilities to do other things. Leveling Q means less surviability and a longer time for E to be good. Leveling W means less cc altogether. Leveling E means less damage and survivability.
Rammus just seems to be an extremely weird champion. I don't know many like him who can focus on certain abilities and have it completely change what they're able to do to such a degree.

Starting items depends on what you want to build. I'd recommend either shooting for an early philo stone (start regrowth + 1 potion) or for madred's razors (start with cloth armor and an assortment of wards/potions, or with longsword and a potion). Use AS marks, not armor; MS quints are a fair choice.

I recommend WQQE then R>E>W>Q, the second point in Q early is because the extra 50 damage on powerball gives you extra power for both clearing the jungle as well as for ganks, but then you want to level taunt up ASAP for your ganks. If you plan to gank at level 3 go WQE instead.
Go here http://vina.biobiochile.cl/ and input the Konami Code (up up down down left right left right B A)
Terranasaur
Profile Joined May 2011
United States2085 Posts
August 04 2012 20:42 GMT
#282
On August 05 2012 05:08 Dark_Chill wrote:
I really want to get back into Rammus, even if he isn't incredibly viable, but I have no idea how to play him.

Do you start off boots3 or regrowth1? Both seem like valid options, but is one the better choice? Do boots leave him too low?

What runes should I use? Right now, I use armor yellow/red, scaling mr blue and ms quints, but I'm not sure if those are the best choice. Are the ms quints a good idea?

Finally, what am I supposed to level as Rammus? His W offers more survivability and clear speed, but then you have low ganking power. E seems to take a while to be effective for ganks. Q gives a bit more damage and slow, but it also costs more. No matter what ability I would level, it seems like I'd be heavily decreasing his abilities to do other things. Leveling Q means less surviability and a longer time for E to be good. Leveling W means less cc altogether. Leveling E means less damage and survivability.
Rammus just seems to be an extremely weird champion. I don't know many like him who can focus on certain abilities and have it completely change what they're able to do to such a degree.



I run attack speed reds and quints. armor yellows. MR/Lvl Blues.

Start Regrowth+1.

Level WQWE then R>E>W>Q. I'd rather have that second level in W early than a second in Q, but I can see the argument for it.

You really want boots and that philo ASAP. Rammus doesn't clear as fast as a lot of folks, so the gold income and regen really, really help. Gank like crazy. Rammus is def not as strong as he once was, but I still play him from time to time and have done fairly well. You just have to be smarter about how you engage because you cant ROFLTANK as well as you used to.
Decisions Determine Destiny - Terranasaur#1719 D3 #557 SC2 3DS FC: 2423-3623-8068
Dark_Chill
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada3353 Posts
August 05 2012 21:12 GMT
#283
Okay, just tried it out: it feels slow, but that's to be expected. His ganks are what you're looking for when playing Rammus. With that in mind, I have a new question: is it sensible to play Rammus in solo queue ranked?
When a character is that focused on his ganks to succeed, it just doesn't seem to make sense playing him in anything other than a coordinated team. I play Amumu as well jungling, and he just seems a lot better in solo queue ranked regarding ganks. Q closes gaps a lot more easily, and lvl 6 can usually guarantee a successful gank. He also clears faster and has much better survivability.
CUTE MAKES RIGHT
Terranasaur
Profile Joined May 2011
United States2085 Posts
August 05 2012 22:00 GMT
#284
Mummy and Moose have different strengths when ganking. Mummy's strength is that if he gets to you, you are incredibly screwed.

Powerball isn't really a gap closer as much as it is a "fly past wards at warp speed without giving a shit and gank that lane anyway" move. This is why people hated playing against Rammus in solo que. Even if they ward halfway up the river, and even if they spot him, he can still get to their lane, and that taunt can lock them down while he lols and they die.
Decisions Determine Destiny - Terranasaur#1719 D3 #557 SC2 3DS FC: 2423-3623-8068
Zato-1
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Chile4253 Posts
August 06 2012 04:58 GMT
#285
TBH, I don't think it's very sensible to play Rammus at all in Summoner's Rift atm. Here's a history of the latest changes to the armordillo:

Stats:
Base armor reduced to 20.8 from 24.8.
Base attack damage reduced to 53.5 from 58.8.
Now gains 1.25 Magic Resist per level.

Powerball:
Duration reduced to 7 from 8.
Initial bonus movement speed increased to 30% from 25%.
Mana cost reduced to 70/80/90/100/110 from 80/90/100/110/120.
Reduced the spell casting time and movement delay after collision.

Defensive Ball Curl:
Damage return reduced to 15/25/35/45/55 from 20/30/40/50/60.
Armor and magic resist values reduced to 40/60/80/100/120 from 50/75/100/125/150.
Mana cost reduced to 40 from 50.

The latest quality of life improvements in the form of lower mana costs for Powerball and DBC are nice to be sure, but the nerfs to Rammus' stats and skills were overkill IMO. While jungling with level 1 DBC turned on, these nerfs altogether add up to 14 less armor, 8.8 less AD, and 6.4 less damage returned from DBC. This degree of nerfs is absolutely massive and Rammus is one of the weakest dedicated jungling champions in the game right now, IMO.
Go here http://vina.biobiochile.cl/ and input the Konami Code (up up down down left right left right B A)
Craton
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States17236 Posts
August 06 2012 07:24 GMT
#286
Rammus you generally start regrowth + 1 pot and start blue. Ideally you get a strong smiteless pull so you can do red after wraiths and do a fast level 3 gank. You get a lot of easy kills and blown summoners with this timing.

I especially like to do the reverse where you start wraiths -> red then go wolves -> blue and do a level 3 gank on top as Blue side. It's very effective.

Rammus can be disrupted early and it will hurt him a lot. You need your laners to be competent enough at picking champs that can fight off early invades and react quickly to it. If you pick Rammus early, 9 times out of 10 the enemy will pick a counterjungler like Mundo and try to do an early steal on the red side of your jungle. If your support wards it early you can pick up a free kill and get snowballing.

Best build is generally Philo into Aegis and then tank items for whatever is going on in the game. You can also grab Sunfire as your first big item, as Rammus needs HP more than any other stat and the damage is noticeable for clearing and it fights.

Leveling order is W, Q, E, E>W>Q. You really need to get your taunt duration leveled up ASAP. Ganks are pretty simple. Wait for the minion wave to arrive, spin up for 2-4 seconds in the bush, then go in and try to hit him from behind into your teammate. If they have flash try to arrive on them with another 1.5 seconds left on Q so you can force them try and flash over you and then close the gap anyway. Taunting as they flash is pretty obnoxious, too.

Rammus has top 5 best lane gank. Get a clear path to take and then just Q on in. Ideally you want your laners to jump in first and apply a CC or slow so that you are guaranteed to force a flash or get a kill.
twitch.tv/cratonz
Terranasaur
Profile Joined May 2011
United States2085 Posts
August 06 2012 19:18 GMT
#287
This is making me miss the days when Rammus was King...
Decisions Determine Destiny - Terranasaur#1719 D3 #557 SC2 3DS FC: 2423-3623-8068
ZERG_RUSSIAN
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
10417 Posts
August 07 2012 04:28 GMT
#288
Isn't start Q pretty standard if you get a decent leash from your team? W is useless on a leash and Q allows for the level 2 gank. I'm not a rammus pro but I'm pretty sure Q start is textbook.
I'm on GOLD CHAIN
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-07 05:16:10
August 07 2012 05:11 GMT
#289
On August 07 2012 13:28 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Isn't start Q pretty standard if you get a decent leash from your team? W is useless on a leash and Q allows for the level 2 gank. I'm not a rammus pro but I'm pretty sure Q start is textbook.

Q is also by far the most useful skill for a level 1 teamfight. 100 base damage AoE nuke, slows, MS buff.

EDIT: The problem with Q start on a leash is that bumping the Golem sometimes does weird things with its aggro and causes it to reset.
Moderator
Craton
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States17236 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-07 05:18:12
August 07 2012 05:14 GMT
#290
Q start is very much non-standard. You only do it if you're coordinating a level 2 gank.





Two Rammus games I played today. I'm especially grumpy in these because of occasional sharp pains in my jaw during them (zz wisdom teeth).
twitch.tv/cratonz
Haasts
Profile Joined October 2011
New Zealand4445 Posts
December 23 2012 20:41 GMT
#291
Some copypasta from GD so I don't lose track of it by the next time I can check the thread in 2013 or w/e:

On December 24 2012 04:11 Scip wrote:
ok played Rammus in 6 really really tryhard ranked5s with my cz team and my current verdict is:
HELL YEA
Tried building Locket first and Randuins first, Randuins is just so goddamn godlike because your W gives it like 1.2 more seconds when you use it, not to mention you scale really well with the hp and the armor too kinda. Locket is good because Locket OP naturally.
Start Machete+5, then Spirit Stone, boots1, Flask. Rammus has godlike initiation and probably the best innate survivability of all champions in the game (120 armor+mres, gl killing that LOL). Haven't tried building all that much damage, probably not the best idea unless you get fed. Most likely sunfire or zeal would be best.



PaniaoftheReef in Path of Exile TotA SSF SC // Lovelin fanclub // GreenTea #1
riotjune
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States3392 Posts
December 23 2012 22:15 GMT
#292
Ok
Craton
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States17236 Posts
December 23 2012 22:25 GMT
#293
On December 24 2012 05:41 Haasts wrote:
Some copypasta from GD so I don't lose track of it by the next time I can check the thread in 2013 or w/e:

Show nested quote +
On December 24 2012 04:11 Scip wrote:
ok played Rammus in 6 really really tryhard ranked5s with my cz team and my current verdict is:
HELL YEA
Tried building Locket first and Randuins first, Randuins is just so goddamn godlike because your W gives it like 1.2 more seconds when you use it, not to mention you scale really well with the hp and the armor too kinda. Locket is good because Locket OP naturally.
Start Machete+5, then Spirit Stone, boots1, Flask. Rammus has godlike initiation and probably the best innate survivability of all champions in the game (120 armor+mres, gl killing that LOL). Haven't tried building all that much damage, probably not the best idea unless you get fed. Most likely sunfire or zeal would be best.

Thread is going to be replaced in the near future so I would record your personal notes somewhere else.
twitch.tv/cratonz
Scip
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic11293 Posts
December 24 2012 00:20 GMT
#294
Does anyone want to do the Rammus thread? Me not yet, but I think that in a month or so I should be experienced enough to write a guide (as long as Rammus will keep proving himself stronk)
"It may be pleasurable for some of us to imagine being ravished" - Christopher Hitchens in a debate with feminists RIP 2011 Psalm 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
GhandiEAGLE
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States20754 Posts
December 24 2012 02:10 GMT
#295
Cant wait for my first main to become viable again, I feel like hes definitely climbing back into that realm
Oh, my achin' hands, from rakin' in grands, and breakin' in mic stands
Craton
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States17236 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-24 05:31:40
December 24 2012 05:31 GMT
#296
On December 24 2012 09:20 Scip wrote:
Does anyone want to do the Rammus thread? Me not yet, but I think that in a month or so I should be experienced enough to write a guide (as long as Rammus will keep proving himself stronk)

I am doing it. I have the framework done, but I'm getting more games in for adjustments and alternate builds.

He is certainly viable right now, but still a sketchy early pick.
twitch.tv/cratonz
Terranasaur
Profile Joined May 2011
United States2085 Posts
December 24 2012 07:28 GMT
#297
On December 24 2012 14:31 Craton wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2012 09:20 Scip wrote:
Does anyone want to do the Rammus thread? Me not yet, but I think that in a month or so I should be experienced enough to write a guide (as long as Rammus will keep proving himself stronk)

I am doing it. I have the framework done, but I'm getting more games in for adjustments and alternate builds.

He is certainly viable right now, but still a sketchy early pick.


Really excited for this guide and some Moose tips in the new jungle. By far my favorite champ of all time.
Decisions Determine Destiny - Terranasaur#1719 D3 #557 SC2 3DS FC: 2423-3623-8068
Zato-1
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Chile4253 Posts
December 24 2012 10:57 GMT
#298
On December 24 2012 07:25 Craton wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 24 2012 05:41 Haasts wrote:
Some copypasta from GD so I don't lose track of it by the next time I can check the thread in 2013 or w/e:

On December 24 2012 04:11 Scip wrote:
ok played Rammus in 6 really really tryhard ranked5s with my cz team and my current verdict is:
HELL YEA
Tried building Locket first and Randuins first, Randuins is just so goddamn godlike because your W gives it like 1.2 more seconds when you use it, not to mention you scale really well with the hp and the armor too kinda. Locket is good because Locket OP naturally.
Start Machete+5, then Spirit Stone, boots1, Flask. Rammus has godlike initiation and probably the best innate survivability of all champions in the game (120 armor+mres, gl killing that LOL). Haven't tried building all that much damage, probably not the best idea unless you get fed. Most likely sunfire or zeal would be best.

Thread is going to be replaced in the near future so I would record your personal notes somewhere else.

I can't edit the OP for some reason, so if you want a new topic for Rammus with an OP that is even remotely relevant then it's probably best to let this thread die.

I'm curious as to how people are making Rammus work, he feels pretty weak to me compared to other junglers I've tried such as Jax, Lee Sin, Amumu and even Sejuani.
Go here http://vina.biobiochile.cl/ and input the Konami Code (up up down down left right left right B A)
Scip
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic11293 Posts
December 24 2012 12:49 GMT
#299
Yeah, we did the same thing for Amumu thread, when Craton is done he will make a new OP and this thread will get closed. All the discussion here will be either outdated or will contribute to the guide Craton will make anyway.

When you are done with your draft Craton, dont forget to post it here so we can get some suggestions going :3
"It may be pleasurable for some of us to imagine being ravished" - Christopher Hitchens in a debate with feminists RIP 2011 Psalm 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
Craton
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States17236 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-25 07:59:28
December 25 2012 04:01 GMT
#300
I'm just going to post it once I have it that far along. Any feedback can be edited in directly.

As an idea of where I'm at:

These sections are finished:
My background w/ Rammus
Patch Notes
Base Stats / Stats Per Level
Skill Overview
Runes
Skill Order

These are in progress (nearly finished, awaiting some content tweaks, a few more games of testing, and some more pictures):
Items
Masteries

These are remaining:
Jungle routes
Ganking tips and tricks
Teamfight goals
Lategame initiation
twitch.tv/cratonz
Scip
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic11293 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-25 12:16:51
December 25 2012 12:16 GMT
#301
On masteries I go 0/21/9, taking improved smite, Durability, Veteran's Scars, Tough Skin, Bladed Armor, Hardiness (standard stuff), Safeguard, Juggernaut, Legendary Armor, Reinforced Armor and Honor Guard in defense. In utility I take improved flash, mp5, summoner cooldown, improved recall and buff duration.

I take 21 in defense because offense tree isn't very good for Rammus, and I don't take 21 in utility because even with that you can't really start with Flask (too little hp on the first clear). I take the standard stuff in defense except I don't take tenacity. I get Legendary Armor for my W instead, the 15% tenacity really isn't that important.

with 9 points left, I decide to put them in Utility, the masteries left in defense aren't all that useful apart from tenacity and the offense mastery tree isn't really worth mentioning lol. I take the standardest 9 utility points for jungler, don't think an explanation is needed.

just in case you wanted to know how I roll :p
"It may be pleasurable for some of us to imagine being ravished" - Christopher Hitchens in a debate with feminists RIP 2011 Psalm 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
Zato-1
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Chile4253 Posts
December 25 2012 14:35 GMT
#302
I go 6/24/0, Smite/Flash. I find that 4% AS + 4 damage to monsters from Offense helps noticeably with the jungle, and I find that 15% Tenacity is one of the best masteries in the new Defense tree so I always take it if I'm going that far down the tree. Legendary Armor is a pretty bad mastery most of the time, but Rammus happens to be the only champion on whom I find it to be worth taking so I also get it. Runes-wise I'm taking AS Marks, flat Armor seals, MR/level glyphs and flat Armor quints.

I hate it that your jungle speed goes down the drain pretty fast, and the only items that seem like they fix that are Lizard Elder Spirit Stone (which is entirely too much gold spent for an item with no tank stats) and Funfire (which has really expensive components and doesn't help you clear faster until you finish it). Ancient Golem SS is simply inadequate to maintain a good jungle clear speed.

The tanky items I definitely like on Rammus for later on are Funfire, Aegis -> Runic Bulwark and Randuin's.
Go here http://vina.biobiochile.cl/ and input the Konami Code (up up down down left right left right B A)
Scip
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic11293 Posts
December 25 2012 14:55 GMT
#303
I definitely don´t think the 4% attack speed is worth it. It increases you attack speed by 3.4% at level1, gradually decreasing every level. By estimate just about less than half of damage you do to creeps is from your autoattacks. So let's say it allows you to kill creeps 1.5% faster (at level 1, gets less and less each level). By another estimate about 75% of your time jungling is spent killing creeps. So it speeds up your jungle by about 1.1% and decreasing with each level.
Not worth it for 4 mastery points imo.
"It may be pleasurable for some of us to imagine being ravished" - Christopher Hitchens in a debate with feminists RIP 2011 Psalm 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
December 25 2012 15:55 GMT
#304
not taking buff duration real dumb unless you're going man mode with 30 defense
Craton
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States17236 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-25 16:44:57
December 25 2012 16:43 GMT
#305
Offense and Utility trees are both really awful for Rammus. You're better off going something like 0/26-30/0-4. You don't need the OOC movement speed or mana out of utility, so all you really get is lower CD on flash and some mp5, which are both already tier 1, plus more tier 2 points for further flash CD lowering. If you really need Flash CD lowered that badly, you can just grab Distortion anyway and invest your points in Defense. Defense tree has a lot of good stats Rammus wants, especially early. Not having Runic Mastery will barely affect you.
twitch.tv/cratonz
Scip
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic11293 Posts
December 25 2012 17:09 GMT
#306
What do you get for your extra few points, Defender, Tenacious, Unyielding and Block?
Compare 15 tenacity, 1-5 Mres+Armor (depending on number of enemy champs nearby), 2 less dmg from champs and 3 less dmg from autoattacks. To
3 mp5, 30s cooldown on flash, 7s cooldown on smite and 30s duration on blue and red buff.
I'd rather the second one usually, unless you expect that Defender will be useful for spotting counterjungle early game.
"It may be pleasurable for some of us to imagine being ravished" - Christopher Hitchens in a debate with feminists RIP 2011 Psalm 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
Craton
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States17236 Posts
December 25 2012 17:15 GMT
#307
Summoner CD reductions are usually wasted in part or in full the way games play out. Rammus has a weak early game, so you dump all your masteries into shoring that up. The defense tree does not give tenacity. -2/3 damage from champs is pretty awful.

MP5 is about the only worthwhile pickup and even then that's only if you're having mana problems that would be helped by the slight regen gain.
twitch.tv/cratonz
Scip
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic11293 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-25 17:34:57
December 25 2012 17:31 GMT
#308
Well, what do you get in masteries if you got 0/26/4 or 0/29/1 then? There aren't all that many other left. Magic Resistance and?

I don't really know what you want to say. What do you mean the defense tree doesn't give tenacity? The mastery called Tenacious does. I don't take it when I go 0/21/9, but I assumed you did when you get more than 21 in defense.

Also Distortion boots might not be that desirable because Homeguard boots can be quite good on Rammus, you can initiate with them in your inihibitor towers or slightly beyond.
"It may be pleasurable for some of us to imagine being ravished" - Christopher Hitchens in a debate with feminists RIP 2011 Psalm 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
Craton
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States17236 Posts
December 25 2012 20:01 GMT
#309
Tenacity is a unique passive of CC reduction that does not stack with additional sources. Tenacious is CC reduction that stacks multiplicatively with Tenacity.

Which boot enchantment you get will always depend on the game, but it's also likely that the points in CD reduction on Flash/Smite never net you any meaningful value.

You'd load up on the mid/high tier Defensive tree for added durability and CC mitigation. The question really boils down to A.) how badly do you need that 3 mp5 and B.) how much does that 30 sec on blue/red really help? For Rammus, it's a bit of "meh" -- they're just so-so.
twitch.tv/cratonz
Scip
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic11293 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-25 20:10:37
December 25 2012 20:03 GMT
#310
So, what do you take instead of that in defense?

Sorry about the Tenacity confusion, somehow I thought it's a name for a stat that decreases CC duration, lol. :D
"It may be pleasurable for some of us to imagine being ravished" - Christopher Hitchens in a debate with feminists RIP 2011 Psalm 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
December 31 2012 05:43 GMT
#311
I just played a couple games as Rammus -- my first in S3 jungle with him. The spiritstone/spirit of golem helps him sooooo damned much. These items make his clears really fast, and he still ganks like a boss. I've been doing machete + 5hp => boots/spirit stone => golem spirit / tabis => aegis => thornmail / bulwark.
Craton
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States17236 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-31 09:48:22
December 31 2012 08:12 GMT
#312
I tend to go Aegis after Spirit and sit on Spirit for awhile. I'm lukewarm on Ancient Golem since it does give you HP/Armor, but really doesn't give you any of the utility stats you want for fights (like Randuin's/FH active/passives) and it doesn't give you any additional regen or damage.

His clear times still aren't very good even with stone -- his small camp (wolves/wraiths) was already good and his big camp was already slow and remains so. I do like to use Tremors on red since I often recall right after grabbing it and the CD for his ult is so short.
twitch.tv/cratonz
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
December 31 2012 15:52 GMT
#313
On December 31 2012 17:12 Craton wrote:
I tend to go Aegis after Spirit and sit on Spirit for awhile. I'm lukewarm on Ancient Golem since it does give you HP/Armor, but really doesn't give you any of the utility stats you want for fights (like Randuin's/FH active/passives) and it doesn't give you any additional regen or damage.

His clear times still aren't very good even with stone -- his small camp (wolves/wraiths) was already good and his big camp was already slow and remains so. I do like to use Tremors on red since I often recall right after grabbing it and the CD for his ult is so short.

The golem stone gives you all sorts of stuff that you need. You get hp, armor, tenacity (allowing you to get tabis), and a larger bonus to creep damage. The tenacity and hp are particularly important because they give you more flexibility in terms of future itemization.
Dark_Chill
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada3353 Posts
December 31 2012 16:23 GMT
#314
Still, have to wonder if it's worth holding off on or skipping altogether. He's right in saying that Randuin's will definitely take longer, and Randuin's alone is already giving health and armor. MR boots still give you tenacity, and if you get Aegis, I think you're covered for pretty much everything you need.
CUTE MAKES RIGHT
sylverfyre
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8298 Posts
December 31 2012 17:29 GMT
#315
What about Locket? It's not as much armor, but a bit cheaper than Randuin's and the active is pretty good when you pop it at the same time as your W. The CDR seems good to me too.
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
December 31 2012 17:54 GMT
#316
You should all be getting locket it's op as fuck
Craton
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States17236 Posts
December 31 2012 19:25 GMT
#317
On January 01 2013 02:29 sylverfyre wrote:
What about Locket? It's not as much armor, but a bit cheaper than Randuin's and the active is pretty good when you pop it at the same time as your W. The CDR seems good to me too.

It's not bad, but it's situational as to when it's a better buy than the standard items. It's comparable to Aegis, but without a build path.
twitch.tv/cratonz
sylverfyre
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8298 Posts
December 31 2012 19:36 GMT
#318
Kindlegem / cloth seems like a fine enough buildpath to me.
Scip
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic11293 Posts
December 31 2012 20:15 GMT
#319
Locket has an arguably better build up than Aegis because it's best part (Ruby Crystal/Kindlegem) is more slot efficient than having Ruby Crystal+Cloth while building Aegis. And yeah, Locket is ridiculously strong on Rammus.
"It may be pleasurable for some of us to imagine being ravished" - Christopher Hitchens in a debate with feminists RIP 2011 Psalm 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
ZERG_RUSSIAN
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
10417 Posts
December 31 2012 22:20 GMT
#320
What does slot efficiency matter when your combine cost is under 1000 gold and you've got literally two other items?
I'm on GOLD CHAIN
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
December 31 2012 22:34 GMT
#321
On January 01 2013 02:54 Slayer91 wrote:
You should all be getting locket it's op as fuck

Moderator
Scip
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic11293 Posts
January 01 2013 01:11 GMT
#322
On January 01 2013 07:20 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
What does slot efficiency matter when your combine cost is under 1000 gold and you've got literally two other items?

Spirit Stone, Boots, Sightstone, Flask. That's 4. You might not always want a sightstone, but sometimes you want a pink ward in your inventory.
"It may be pleasurable for some of us to imagine being ravished" - Christopher Hitchens in a debate with feminists RIP 2011 Psalm 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
Scip
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic11293 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-11 16:16:47
January 11 2013 16:16 GMT
#323
Double posting in order to revive discussion, after a lot more games I have some new opinions and hopefully the experience to defend them. But first things that need to still be done.
Boots1 or finish Spirit Stone first? Haven't done the math yet+it's not something that can be fully expressed by maths. Needs testing.
Rune setups. Haven't experimented there, just went with the attackspeed reds, armor yellows and quints, MR18 blues. Maybe Mspeed quints would be better here.
We talked about masteries, don't know how much more we can theorycraft out of that.

For itembuilds, I think boots1, Spirit Stone and Flask is completely core, can't see how you could possibly jungle without that. Don't think anyone disputes it, just posting for clarity :p Obviously build is very simple, take some of Randuins, Locket, SotAG, Mercs, Ninja Tabi and you'll have a good build.

What I want to draw attention to is the relatively farmy style that Rammus I think should be played with. There's the trap new players might fall into (i. e. I did) that just because you have hard CC and a massive movement speed boost you gank a lot early game. Nowadays I usually restrict myself to ganking mostly 1 lane, preferably middle lane if possible, because you just don't have the time to gank them all. So I invite everyone to try a more farmy playstyle and hopefully reap the benefits.

One of the things related to that, while I was a very large fan of the Sightstone originally, I now think that it is worth it only if your support doesn't get one (for example because they are Zyra and want to build some AP. qq.) One thing that should not be underestimated is Rammus' straightup combat strenght, which while not really equal to the likes of Mundo or Olaf, is still pretty comparable and even-numbers fight can still work out in your advantage.
That is obviously not true if you get a Sightstone, which is the exact reason why I avoid buying it as often as possible.

Any thoughts/comments/new ideas?

Also Craton how is your guide draft going?
"It may be pleasurable for some of us to imagine being ravished" - Christopher Hitchens in a debate with feminists RIP 2011 Psalm 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
January 11 2013 17:43 GMT
#324
On January 12 2013 01:16 Scip wrote:
Double posting in order to revive discussion, after a lot more games I have some new opinions and hopefully the experience to defend them. But first things that need to still be done.
Boots1 or finish Spirit Stone first? Haven't done the math yet+it's not something that can be fully expressed by maths. Needs testing.


You should almost always finish spirit stone before getting boots regardless of who you're jungling. The sustain is too good, plus it generally allows you to give every blue buff after the first one to your mid.


Rune setups. Haven't experimented there, just went with the attackspeed reds, armor yellows and quints, MR18 blues. Maybe Mspeed quints would be better here.
We talked about masteries, don't know how much more we can theorycraft out of that.


Given how the machete works, I think AS reds are mandatory for most any jungler. For Rammus (and most everyone else), I've been doing AS red, armor yellow, MR18 blue, and MS quints. It works just fine.

For itembuilds, I think boots1, Spirit Stone and Flask is completely core, can't see how you could possibly jungle without that. Don't think anyone disputes it, just posting for clarity :p Obviously build is very simple, take some of Randuins, Locket, SotAG, Mercs, Ninja Tabi and you'll have a good build.


I never bother with flask on my junglers -- even Rammus. I find that the sustain from creeps and spirit stone is enough. Anyway, my preferred build is machete + 5hp => spirit stone => boots1 => golem spirit => tabis => aegis as a core (throw a sightstone in there, too, if needed). It's not expensive, the progression is really smooth, and it gives Rammus basically everything that he needs. From there, I do in some order thornmail (always get this at some point), locket, Bulwark, and one of the negatron cloak items (usually SV).

What I want to draw attention to is the relatively farmy style that Rammus I think should be played with. There's the trap new players might fall into (i. e. I did) that just because you have hard CC and a massive movement speed boost you gank a lot early game. Nowadays I usually restrict myself to ganking mostly 1 lane, preferably middle lane if possible, because you just don't have the time to gank them all. So I invite everyone to try a more farmy playstyle and hopefully reap the benefits.


Rammus is fast enough to gank a lot and farm fairly well in the jungle.

One of the things related to that, while I was a very large fan of the Sightstone originally, I now think that it is worth it only if your support doesn't get one (for example because they are Zyra and want to build some AP. qq.) One thing that should not be underestimated is Rammus' straightup combat strenght, which while not really equal to the likes of Mundo or Olaf, is still pretty comparable and even-numbers fight can still work out in your advantage.
That is obviously not true if you get a Sightstone, which is the exact reason why I avoid buying it as often as possible.


Rammus isn't going successfully 1v1 many people. However, he's very problematic for the opposition in larger engagements because he can nullify the primary damage dealer.

Craton
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States17236 Posts
January 21 2013 04:55 GMT
#325
OK, let me ask this here:

Would you guys prefer I post a mostly complete guide and update as time permits or wait until it's finished before posting it at all?

Done
Patch Notes
Base Stats & Stats Per Level
Skill Overview
Masteries (0/29/1)
Runes
Skill Leveling Order
Items Choices

Not done
Ganking (Need to cut current video (only shows angles with no other players present) or reshoot some clips with example players). Alternatively can just mspaint some graphics.
Teamfights
Jungle Clearing Tips & Tricks

I think the ganking and teamfight sections are really the most important sections.

Poll: Post Rammus Guide?

Right now (12)
 
60%

Only when completely done (8)
 
40%

20 total votes

Your vote: Post Rammus Guide?

(Vote): Right now
(Vote): Only when completely done


twitch.tv/cratonz
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
January 21 2013 05:08 GMT
#326
what would happen if no one votes
Terranasaur
Profile Joined May 2011
United States2085 Posts
January 21 2013 05:11 GMT
#327
On January 21 2013 13:55 Craton wrote:
OK, let me ask this here:

Would you guys prefer I post a mostly complete guide and update as time permits or wait until it's finished before posting it at all?

Done
Patch Notes
Base Stats & Stats Per Level
Skill Overview
Masteries (0/29/1)
Runes
Skill Leveling Order
Items Choices

Not done
Ganking (Need to cut current video (only shows angles with no other players present) or reshoot some clips with example players). Alternatively can just mspaint some graphics.
Teamfights
Jungle Clearing Tips & Tricks

I think the ganking and teamfight sections are really the most important sections.

Poll: Post Rammus Guide?

Right now (12)
 
60%

Only when completely done (8)
 
40%

20 total votes

Your vote: Post Rammus Guide?

(Vote): Right now
(Vote): Only when completely done





Do it now. If you need help with the videos, let me know.
Decisions Determine Destiny - Terranasaur#1719 D3 #557 SC2 3DS FC: 2423-3623-8068
obesechicken13
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10467 Posts
January 21 2013 05:30 GMT
#328
On January 12 2013 01:16 Scip wrote:
What I want to draw attention to is the relatively farmy style that Rammus I think should be played with. There's the trap new players might fall into (i. e. I did) that just because you have hard CC and a massive movement speed boost you gank a lot early game. Nowadays I usually restrict myself to ganking mostly 1 lane, preferably middle lane if possible, because you just don't have the time to gank them all. So I invite everyone to try a more farmy playstyle and hopefully reap the benefits.

I think madreds razor is much better than spirit stone if you want to be more farmy. He clears a lot faster with a razor than with spirit stone. I feel like he definitely has more sustain issues with mana, but I don't think spirit stone's health regen can match razors damage for health sustain. So I usually clear camps with just W to conserve mana. With the added clear speed I feel like I can gank a lot more but I'm still leaving a lot of camps uncleared.

I've been having a lot of success getting my lanes fed as Rammus and taunting people so they can't get out of fights that are in our favor whereas if a fight is in their favor they won't have a 3s taunt. Really happy that I've found another way to play Rammus to a viable degree.
I think in our modern age technology has evolved to become more addictive. The things that don't give us pleasure aren't used as much. Work was never meant to be fun, but doing it makes us happier in the long run.
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
January 21 2013 19:01 GMT
#329
On one hand, the parts you haven't done yet (apart from the videos) can probably be covered by the discussions that will happen once the thread gets posted.
On the other hand, they are as you said the most important parts of a guide (esp. a TL guide, since we don't hold slapping a skill order, x/y/z masteries and cookie-cutter runes as sufficient while it can be easily found elsewhere) and it'd be easier to spark a discussion with initial opinions.
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
Craton
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States17236 Posts
January 21 2013 19:51 GMT
#330
The way things are looking I might just try to flesh out whatever I can over the next week and then post what I have. I'm busy / lacking motivation with my jumbo load at work + apartment hunting :p
twitch.tv/cratonz
nyxnyxnyx
Profile Joined April 2010
Indonesia2978 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-21 20:34:54
January 21 2013 20:04 GMT
#331
oops wrong thread
cool beans
GhandiEAGLE
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States20754 Posts
January 21 2013 20:13 GMT
#332
Please add bruiser top rammus to your guide xD

It is so very op
Oh, my achin' hands, from rakin' in grands, and breakin' in mic stands
UniversalSnip
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
9871 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-09 00:35:05
February 09 2013 00:34 GMT
#333
edit: nvrmnd
"How fucking dare you defile the sanctity of DotA with your fucking casual plebian terminology? May the curse of Gaben and Volvo be upon you. le filthy casual."
UniversalSnip
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
9871 Posts
February 09 2013 07:21 GMT
#334
On January 22 2013 05:13 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
Please add bruiser top rammus to your guide xD

It is so very op


I just won a game where our bot lane was something like 4-19 with tp top rammus. I'm not sure what constitutes 'bruiser' rammus exactly, I played him as a straight tank with sunfire mogs, but it felt really strong.
"How fucking dare you defile the sanctity of DotA with your fucking casual plebian terminology? May the curse of Gaben and Volvo be upon you. le filthy casual."
IamPryda
Profile Joined April 2011
United States1186 Posts
February 11 2013 13:16 GMT
#335
[/quote]

Rammus isn't going successfully 1v1 many people. However, he's very problematic for the opposition in larger engagements because he can nullify the primary damage dealer.

[/QUOTE]
I agree he isn't great in 1v1 but he is a great counter ganker early and really good at shouting down/cleaning up tower divers trying to kill your carry
Moar banelings less qq
Kuja900
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States3564 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-11 16:50:25
February 11 2013 16:37 GMT
#336
In my opinion spirit stone isn't nearly as good as just getting madreds on rammus. The difference in clear speed is night and day which is an area rammus needs a lot of help with and while you wont be able to get spirit of the ancient golem which is of course pretty nice on rammus there are plenty of equally good alternatives to spend your gold on. This will also free you up to buy merc treads for your tenacity which is a nice extra bit of mr which rammus in general has trouble fitting into his build. I also don't think you should upgrade it to wriggles the stats just arent enticing for rammus.
OMG you nasty gurl
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
April 09 2013 18:26 GMT
#337
Any news about the new Rammus guide? I'm still lost as to how to skill him. ._. And his clear is so mana intensive.
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
Juicyfruit
Profile Joined May 2008
Canada5484 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-09 18:52:28
April 09 2013 18:47 GMT
#338
Madreds into locket is still very strong on rammus just like how it's strong on most junglers. I think most people max taunt first since neither Q nor W is particularly helpful for clearing camps anymore, though I think you can put a second point in W if it gets you cleared faster. He's not that mana hungry if you just use 1 W per small camp and ult for big camps (keep 1 mana potion for big camp runs).

I've seen rammuses do very well with a fast homeguard. It just synergizes so nicely on him and solves some of his sustain issue while at the same time helping him get to lanes that need ganks faster. It's particularly helpful once mid-game kicks in and rammus can't do shit in a fair fight, so he'll be relying on splitpushing to be useful; you split-push -> recall safely when they respond-> abuse homeguard to get somewhere else.
rhs408
Profile Joined January 2011
United States904 Posts
April 09 2013 18:58 GMT
#339
Just wanted to say that rammus is a fucking beast in ARAM, taunt into tower is autokill
sylverfyre
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8298 Posts
April 09 2013 19:04 GMT
#340
WQ(E/W)(W/E)(W/E)R R>E>W>Q

Runes: AS Armor MR and option of MS or AS on quints.

You want 2-3 points in W for your clear speed, then max E. Taunt duration goes up SO FAST when you rank it up (1sec -> 3 sec)

Build wise, get your razors ASAP because you aren't super reliant on movespeed to make your ganks work.

Mana costs: Don't go overboard on Qing to each camp, do it only when you have blue buff or are planning on recalling before your next gank, or if you really have plenty of mana. W is the "clear faster" skill, and it's only 40 mana. Most jungle creeps will hit you 4 times while you have ball curl up, meaning it does 60 + 40% of armor + 40/level damage to every creep, PLUS increases your AD by a modest amount. It's not the fastest clear in the world, but it's ok.
Juicyfruit
Profile Joined May 2008
Canada5484 Posts
April 09 2013 19:11 GMT
#341
Does 3 points of W really make that much of a difference compared to 1 for clearspeed? I mean levels 3-7 is when you'll be ganking the most as rammus and your opportunities diminish significantly after that.
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
April 09 2013 20:50 GMT
#342
I thought I'd need some points in Q for the damage (and I certainly used it too much while farming) so that explains the lack of mana, and also that I felt a bit short in points (he needs them pretty badly between W and E @_@). Maybe I'm just too used to playing junglers with pretty decent base damage (including Maokai, and somewhat Nautilus) so I assumed I needed some.
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
Kezzer
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States1268 Posts
April 22 2013 12:50 GMT
#343
Hey guys how viable is rammus in ranked 5's? I almost never see anyone play him atm
goodkarma
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States1067 Posts
April 22 2013 13:30 GMT
#344
He's definitely viable. If you look at his win% on lolking, it's amongst the highest for all champions (54%). That he's rarely played doesn't mean he isn't good.
sylverfyre
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8298 Posts
April 22 2013 13:33 GMT
#345
The base damage from level 1 Q is pretty darn good (100) but it goes up so high in mana cost if you level it that it's just not worth it. You need the E levels to make your ganks ridiculous (eternity taunt) and your W levels so you can clear for cheap+be really hard to kill.

ThE)ShoWTimE
Profile Joined August 2011
Italy213 Posts
April 22 2013 15:15 GMT
#346
isnt Q usually maxed last?
IamPryda
Profile Joined April 2011
United States1186 Posts
April 22 2013 15:30 GMT
#347
I max q last I start w-q-e-q and the prioritize r>e>w>q
Moar banelings less qq
Craton
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States17236 Posts
May 06 2013 05:19 GMT
#348
On April 22 2013 22:30 goodkarma wrote:
He's definitely viable. If you look at his win% on lolking, it's amongst the highest for all champions (54%). That he's rarely played doesn't mean he isn't good.

That also skews the data. It's like the old Teemo that was only ever picked in specific, favorable situations.

Rammus can be good, but there are a lot of unfavorable matchups.
twitch.tv/cratonz
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
May 06 2013 08:11 GMT
#349
like what?
scip played a lot of rammus and never did poorly in 5's games including german EPS i think
Scip
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic11293 Posts
May 06 2013 12:55 GMT
#350
On May 06 2013 17:11 Slayer91 wrote:
like what?
scip played a lot of rammus and never did poorly in 5's games including german EPS i think

He does badly against Rammus ban
seriously I hate those ESC guys they are too smart for me
"It may be pleasurable for some of us to imagine being ravished" - Christopher Hitchens in a debate with feminists RIP 2011 Psalm 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
Blyf
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Denmark408 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-07 08:20:29
May 07 2013 08:18 GMT
#351
Scip how do you deal with early invades from mid/jungle?

Edit: To elaborate: Every time I pick a weak early jungler, it seems like an invition for their xin/jarvan/lee sin to come and kill me at red with help from their mid.
"ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" - Charles Darwin --- wtf? begets isn't a word. quit trying to make up words, fuckface. - Some idiot --- D3 Evelynn main with a side of Ashe/Tristana
OmegaKnetus
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Germany431 Posts
May 07 2013 09:05 GMT
#352
On May 07 2013 17:18 Blyf wrote:
Scip how do you deal with early invades from mid/jungle?

Edit: To elaborate: Every time I pick a weak early jungler, it seems like an invition for their xin/jarvan/lee sin to come and kill me at red with help from their mid.



My way of dealing with this is just starting your red against those types of junglers. Works for me atleast and won't slow down clear speed at all. Alternatively you could just ask your support to ward the bush next to red buff. If their mid goes for you you could also ask your mid to assist you.
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-07 09:42:21
May 07 2013 09:27 GMT
#353
On May 07 2013 17:18 Blyf wrote:
Scip how do you deal with early invades from mid/jungle?

Edit: To elaborate: Every time I pick a weak early jungler, it seems like an invition for their xin/jarvan/lee sin to come and kill me at red with help from their mid.


it doesnt matter what champ you are if mid and jungle gank you at red you are going to die
pay attention to enemy mid movement and ping for your team. You should be able to collapse 3v2 or 3v1 as long as you are aware and check the red brush before starting it etc

if they are ganking you at red you they will be lvl 2 as well so no huge advantage. If they hit level 3 and get to your red before you finish yours something is wrong. Wolves should be done before blue spawns, blue should be done quickly if you get a pull and Q makes up for any loss in speed killing blue and you smite red so you should hit 3 the same as any other jungler.
La1
Profile Joined November 2010
United Kingdom659 Posts
May 07 2013 10:51 GMT
#354
I play rammus, The issue is when to pick him as he can be counter jungled hard but as long as your team is AWARE then you should never have a problem, and you should rarely die to an invade just make sure you have high hp after your blue

as for the discussion on skill order I take W first, (take less dammage from wolves + blue), then Q after to get to red fast, then i max E and maybe put a second point into W depending on the burst potential, after E is maxed i max W, You don't need clear speed as you should only really be ganking

I also find people buy the wrong items for him, personally it varies depending on the enemy but i always get sightstone first, then go straight into sunfire or ninja tabis (those are my next 2 items) then i complete the sitestone into the HP thing with the tenacity so i have crazy hp and then it varies on what the enemy is doing,
in ranked i have a 60% win ratio with a 3.3 Kda

im only gold2 so take what i say with a pinch of salt.
pff
ThE)ShoWTimE
Profile Joined August 2011
Italy213 Posts
May 07 2013 12:08 GMT
#355
Uhm, i dont know about the sightstone, while always helpful, i don't think it is worth it to get it 1st, i am really biased towards kindlegem on most junglers, hp and cdr is all i ask, so i always rush it after the usual boots and sightstone, then i like boots 2 (usually tabis) into the usual stuff... i'm not also a big fan of sunfire anymore, i like randuins more, because of the passive and active are so powerful (spin into them, taunt the carry -> activate randuins and the ad carry is pretty much done) it's also so powerful if you have to peel for your carry too, activate it and taunt, your adc doesn't even have to kite.. The sunfire i feel is only good for splitpushing on some champs with bad waveclear, and rammus isn't really my jungle choice for split pushes for obvious reasons =)
Scip
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic11293 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-07 12:25:07
May 07 2013 12:19 GMT
#356
Everything that our Teut the Slayer said is correct.
Starting at red on purple side is alright, take small golems and share half xp with your top laner, but it's not necessarily optimal because enemy top lane has extra time to farm worry-free and as rammus you can't really gank bottom lane very well lvl3.
You do need clear speed because you will be farming a lot, but fortunately 2 points in W early are sufficient for that.
Sightstone first is good if your support is not getting it, which ought to be 0% of the time.
Sunfire first is alright if you get fed AND enemy have only physical dmg. It allows you to farm super fast so that's nice. In all other cases Locket first is better.
Don't get anything before Locket apart from boots1 and spirit stone, the jump from Kindlegem+Cloth -> Locket is too cost efficient to delay it.

Shame on Craton for not finishing the guide yet? o.o
"It may be pleasurable for some of us to imagine being ravished" - Christopher Hitchens in a debate with feminists RIP 2011 Psalm 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
May 07 2013 16:41 GMT
#357
On May 07 2013 21:19 Scip wrote:

Sightstone first is good if your support is not getting it, which ought to be 0% of the time.


Shame on Craton for not finishing the guide yet? o.o


HUEHUE
Scip
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic11293 Posts
May 07 2013 16:45 GMT
#358
On May 08 2013 01:41 Slayer91 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 07 2013 21:19 Scip wrote:

Sightstone first is good if your support is not getting it, which ought to be 0% of the time.


Shame on Craton for not finishing the guide yet? o.o


HUEHUE

I had the pleasure of playing tournaments with a support who genuinely thought that sightstone is a waste of money on ranged supports because you don't use the HP. hue.
"It may be pleasurable for some of us to imagine being ravished" - Christopher Hitchens in a debate with feminists RIP 2011 Psalm 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-07 16:47:30
May 07 2013 16:47 GMT
#359
interesting because when i don't buy sightstone its because i want to buy giants belt because i don't use the wards
gg
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
May 07 2013 17:40 GMT
#360
I think they meant spirit stone instead of sightstone, since they were talking about completing it into "the thing with tenacity" (eg golem spirit).
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-07 17:48:36
May 07 2013 17:48 GMT
#361
On May 08 2013 02:40 Alaric wrote:
I think they meant spirit stone instead of sightstone, since they were talking about completing it into "the thing with tenacity" (eg golem spirit).



I DONT REMEMBER ASKING YOU A GOD DAMN THING

+ Show Spoiler +

plus its still a relevant discussion
Scip
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic11293 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-07 18:05:22
May 07 2013 18:03 GMT
#362
Not really a discussion, there isn't really room for differing opinions. Only wrong ideas. <- (as far as sightstone is concerned)
But yes, with spirit stone instead of sight stone it makes a lot more sense. Still, rushing Spirit of the Ancient Golem is worse than getting Locket first.
"It may be pleasurable for some of us to imagine being ravished" - Christopher Hitchens in a debate with feminists RIP 2011 Psalm 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
ThE)ShoWTimE
Profile Joined August 2011
Italy213 Posts
May 08 2013 11:07 GMT
#363
On May 08 2013 03:03 Scip wrote:
Not really a discussion, there isn't really room for differing opinions. Only wrong ideas. <- (as far as sightstone is concerned)
But yes, with spirit stone instead of sight stone it makes a lot more sense. Still, rushing Spirit of the Ancient Golem is worse than getting Locket first.


i quite disagree on this, just my personal preference and reasoning tho: Locket does scale off levels, so rushing it doesn't really give you a significant shield until later on the game, i rush golem because of the absurde good stats it gives for the little money it costs, and because it finally allows to get ninja tabis asap, which are cheaper and have a very good passive (i only get mercs rarely now). I get locket even after Aegis/Bulwark, because by the time i get it i will be at around level 14 to 16 and the shield will be significant. Actually most of the times i let the support get locket and i skip it in favor of Randuins.
Just my personal opinion tho, as i stated =)
Dark_Chill
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada3353 Posts
May 08 2013 12:10 GMT
#364
What's the opinion on putting one point in W and getting madreds? I find that the clear speed isn't too bad and more taunt is always good.
What I usually go is either ss, aegis, or madreds aegis, telling the support to get locket.
CUTE MAKES RIGHT
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
May 08 2013 13:15 GMT
#365
I don't see why you'd delay getting the hp items that rammus needs so badly early on (before levels kick in for hp) for the sake of having taunt at level 5 2 levels earlier
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
May 08 2013 13:23 GMT
#366
On May 08 2013 20:07 ThE)ShoWTimE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 08 2013 03:03 Scip wrote:
Not really a discussion, there isn't really room for differing opinions. Only wrong ideas. <- (as far as sightstone is concerned)
But yes, with spirit stone instead of sight stone it makes a lot more sense. Still, rushing Spirit of the Ancient Golem is worse than getting Locket first.


i quite disagree on this, just my personal preference and reasoning tho: Locket does scale off levels, so rushing it doesn't really give you a significant shield until later on the game, i rush golem because of the absurde good stats it gives for the little money it costs, and because it finally allows to get ninja tabis asap, which are cheaper and have a very good passive (i only get mercs rarely now). I get locket even after Aegis/Bulwark, because by the time i get it i will be at around level 14 to 16 and the shield will be significant. Actually most of the times i let the support get locket and i skip it in favor of Randuins.
Just my personal opinion tho, as i stated =)

Say you get it at level 6, it's still a 110 HP AoE shield that you can spam once per minute (like your ult), that gives you a bunch of HP early and easily (kindlegem is so good because of its low cost, steady CDR stat, and amazing build paths) and let you do silly stuff like tower dive more easily (never not tower dive, anyway). The fact that it costs so little is a big part of its appeal, and it's not like your team would be gimped if you had 2 Lockets (it's better for all non-carriers than having 2 Aegis—screw plural form).

I've found that unless I get several successful ganks early on (and tax a bit) for the gold and, mainly, the exp, I very easily fall behind due to the lack of clear speed with SS. Since madred's is out of question, I guess I should put more levels in W (especially pre-6) to make up for it. I was too used to getting pretty fed in my first few games I guess, and took the pretty good clear for granted.
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-08 13:29:35
May 08 2013 13:28 GMT
#367
the guy has a point its 1300 gold if you already bought spirit stone for 1300 gold worth of hp 10% cdr tenacity and more creep damage a pretty solid bargain

this is MUCH better than locket components, but a finished locket again is pretty stronk

~1100-1200 gold of personal hp early on
332~ gold cdr
700 gold armour
10 hp5
+team aura for fights
for 1850 gold
again free cdr and a bonus (tenacity vs team aura and some more hp regen

so whichever one you can afford after you have a kindlegem you should get
theres some argument for waiting for locket if you know a fights coming up though
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
May 08 2013 14:21 GMT
#368
I meant Locket vs Aegis, not Locket vs Golem Spirit (I was rushing golem spirits off of boots1, sometimes building mobos instead if I'm fed early to give the finger to wards even more, but if Scip prefers Locket I'll try rushing it and decide for myself).
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
May 08 2013 14:24 GMT
#369
lockets prolly always better to get than aegis in early-mid gmae i think yango did the calculations
Scip
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic11293 Posts
May 08 2013 15:42 GMT
#370
You won't do more dmg with SotAG than with Spirit stone, you lose the 10 true dmg per attack with that upgrade.
"It may be pleasurable for some of us to imagine being ravished" - Christopher Hitchens in a debate with feminists RIP 2011 Psalm 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-08 15:43:21
May 08 2013 15:42 GMT
#371
wow
government conspiracy
i forgot about that 10 true damage
i thought it wasnt on spirit stone for some reason
Craton
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States17236 Posts
May 09 2013 02:55 GMT
#372
Two Rammus games from today for anyone interested in current gameplay. Mid plat.

http://www.twitch.tv/cratonlol/c/2259013
http://www.twitch.tv/cratonlol/c/2259034
twitch.tv/cratonz
ShaLLoW[baY]
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada12499 Posts
July 24 2013 00:47 GMT
#373
rammus is one of those champions that i tried once a few months back, sucked complete balls with, and then decided to play again after getting him in aram

are his ganks level 3 normally so weak? i came top to gank for a jax (i think) vs darius and he just shrugged off the 1 second taunt and killed both of us...
ALEXISONFIRE ARE FUCKING BACK (sAviOr for life)
sylverfyre
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8298 Posts
July 24 2013 01:49 GMT
#374
On May 09 2013 00:42 Scip wrote:
You won't do more dmg with SotAG than with Spirit stone, you lose the 10 true dmg per attack with that upgrade.

Is this math different now? SOTAG used to be 25% damage and now it's 30%.
sylverfyre
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8298 Posts
July 24 2013 01:52 GMT
#375
On July 24 2013 09:47 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
rammus is one of those champions that i tried once a few months back, sucked complete balls with, and then decided to play again after getting him in aram

are his ganks level 3 normally so weak? i came top to gank for a jax (i think) vs darius and he just shrugged off the 1 second taunt and killed both of us...

That sounds like you ganked into a bad situation where Darius couldn't actually win a fight. Were you low? Was Darius low? Was Jax full hp? What level were Jax and Darius? Whose summoners were up? Did Darius die before really getting to do damage? (Leaving you to 1v1 a solo laner who just got a bunch of xp from a kill which is likely to have leveled him up, and you're not a good 1v1er, especially early.)
Scip
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic11293 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-24 02:06:26
July 24 2013 02:04 GMT
#376
Yes, the math has changed, you definitely do more damage with SOTAG now.

And yes, Rammus is very weak until about level7 when he starts to pick up with 2s taunt. His lvl3 is especailly weak indeed, which is why you don't gank with rammus lvl3-5 unless you are sure you aren't getting counterganked.

ShallowBay, did you by any chance gank when Darius was pushing on Jax super hard and had like 6 ranged creeps on his side? You're not supposed to gank that with majority of junglers exactly because it often ends just trading kills OR you get counterganked and die horribly.
"It may be pleasurable for some of us to imagine being ravished" - Christopher Hitchens in a debate with feminists RIP 2011 Psalm 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
ShaLLoW[baY]
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada12499 Posts
July 24 2013 03:11 GMT
#377
Correction, Jax was on my team. I will have to look at the replay to determine the levels and health, but I remember thinking that it was a legitimate gank, and I don't tend to go in when there is huge creep advantage for other laner, other than to show my face for a second and relieve pressure a bit.

It was mid lane, slightly on their side of the river, I remember that much, and it was pre 6. He basically killed us with E and Q.


Granted, there are probably extenuating reasons why I'm bad and it was a shit gank I just felt like I personally accomplished nothing with such a short taunt. I'm so used to Lee/Eve/Elise that ganking late like that seems strange.

Thanks for the help
ALEXISONFIRE ARE FUCKING BACK (sAviOr for life)
Craton
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States17236 Posts
July 24 2013 03:40 GMT
#378
On July 24 2013 09:47 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
rammus is one of those champions that i tried once a few months back, sucked complete balls with, and then decided to play again after getting him in aram

are his ganks level 3 normally so weak? i came top to gank for a jax (i think) vs darius and he just shrugged off the 1 second taunt and killed both of us...

You definitely win that done correctly or force flash at the bare minimum. There had to be huge mistakes to die 1v2 at level 3.
twitch.tv/cratonz
ShaLLoW[baY]
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada12499 Posts
July 24 2013 03:46 GMT
#379
I'll rewatch the replay if I can get it to work, in less rage-induced hindsight I probably just shit the bed.

Is Locket still best first big purchase? (after boots+ss)
ALEXISONFIRE ARE FUCKING BACK (sAviOr for life)
Atrioc
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States1865 Posts
July 24 2013 04:05 GMT
#380
i've been playing a lot of rammus whenever I have to jungle lately and i've found the korean style to be the most fun

basically you rush madreds razor + boots of mobility with homeguard + crystalline flask and you gank like a madman possessed anytime you have red buff or there is an easy lane to gank.

With Rammus Q + boots of mobility with homeguard, you get from fountain to the action of any lane so fast its crazy and you are one of the few junglers that can reliably gank bot over and over again. The flask is not 100% necessary but it lets me stay in the field longer and clear a few camps without having to back.

Rush sunfire as your first major item (Rammus loves HP and its the only thing that helps him clear camps/waves)
Writerman what
Craton
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States17236 Posts
July 24 2013 04:14 GMT
#381
On July 24 2013 12:46 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
I'll rewatch the replay if I can get it to work, in less rage-induced hindsight I probably just shit the bed.

Is Locket still best first big purchase? (after boots+ss)

I prefer Bulwark.
twitch.tv/cratonz
dogmatix
Profile Joined April 2011
Australia339 Posts
July 24 2013 09:44 GMT
#382
I prefer homegaurd tabi (w teleport) :D
icemanzdoinwork
Profile Joined August 2010
447 Posts
July 28 2013 03:42 GMT
#383
On July 24 2013 13:05 Atrioc wrote:
i've been playing a lot of rammus whenever I have to jungle lately and i've found the korean style to be the most fun

basically you rush madreds razor + boots of mobility with homeguard + crystalline flask and you gank like a madman possessed anytime you have red buff or there is an easy lane to gank.

With Rammus Q + boots of mobility with homeguard, you get from fountain to the action of any lane so fast its crazy and you are one of the few junglers that can reliably gank bot over and over again. The flask is not 100% necessary but it lets me stay in the field longer and clear a few camps without having to back.

Rush sunfire as your first major item (Rammus loves HP and its the only thing that helps him clear camps/waves)


This is how I have been playing ram as well. I went from gold 3 to plat 3 with this in 2 weeks. I never got a flask.
NeedsmoreCELLTECH
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
Netherlands1242 Posts
December 05 2013 20:46 GMT
#384
I'm really trying to learn Rammus as I enjoy playing him, but I can't figure out how to build him. I am currently going machete into spirit stone and boots, into mobos/'golem/sunfire. However, if the game doesn't go that well I fall behind as I clear like balls. Any tips? I think that going madreds/tabis would be a big help, and then going straight into sunfire.
Get huge or die mirin | Diamond on LoL
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
December 05 2013 20:51 GMT
#385
personally I go madreds/spirit sotne into tabi+golem into sunfire/randuins or something
dunno how scip avoids slow clears
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
December 06 2013 13:59 GMT
#386
Is it really worth it goldwise to go madred+stone, even considering his passive? I mean I know it accelerates his farming, but since it's slow to begin with does it accelerate it enough? I'd be under the assumption that in the midgame Rammus is to abuse his ult's cd and the fact that it works on tower to convert as many successful (eg. at least a recall) ganks as possible into tower/drake kills.
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-12-06 14:02:48
December 06 2013 14:02 GMT
#387
he still doesn't push towers much faster than junglers with any kind of AD build or steriosd and is awful at dragon.
if you can successfully gank how efficient your conversion is isn't hugely important.
you can use the short ult cd to farm buff camps faster hue
Madreds is 400 gold worth of armour so you need to make only 300 gold worth of farm to make it already worth it (considering the XP bonus, you probably need much less).
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
December 06 2013 14:08 GMT
#388
Which bonus xp are you talking about? The fact that you level-up faster from clearing faster, and the base stats it brings you?
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
December 06 2013 14:09 GMT
#389
yes
even 1 level is worth 100's of gold if you count in skill ranks
General_Winter
Profile Joined February 2011
United States719 Posts
February 25 2015 20:21 GMT
#390
bumping because, old or not, this is the official Rammus thread.
In patch 5.4: http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/02/patch-54-notes.html
they changed jungle so it costs an extra 225 gold to side-grade jungle items and nerf the range of chilling smite.
Previously, I had used the Trail blazer as my jungle item while farming for the better jungle smite and then, switched to stalker’s blade before getting juggernaut as my first big item.
Do people have a sense of if this still makes sense, or is it better to start with stalkers now and stay with it, or maybe just never shift to stalker…
My first thought is that 225 is almost the cost of boots, so side-grading means leaving boots for later which is a big pain. Also, I think stalkers is a big part of Rammus’s ability to gank, since he has no quick jumps or gap closers other than Powerball (which you use to initiate the gank, and so don’t have up to chase with). So my thought is that it just means we need to start with stalkers and stick with it, which is going to hurt his already weak jungle clear (ARG Riot why do you hate jungle diversity so much!).
Does your analysis match my own or is there something I’m missing that I should consider?
M2
Profile Joined December 2002
Bulgaria4115 Posts
February 25 2015 20:55 GMT
#391
On February 26 2015 05:21 General_Winter wrote:
bumping because, old or not, this is the official Rammus thread.
In patch 5.4: http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/02/patch-54-notes.html
they changed jungle so it costs an extra 225 gold to side-grade jungle items and nerf the range of chilling smite.
Previously, I had used the Trail blazer as my jungle item while farming for the better jungle smite and then, switched to stalker’s blade before getting juggernaut as my first big item.
Do people have a sense of if this still makes sense, or is it better to start with stalkers now and stay with it, or maybe just never shift to stalker…
My first thought is that 225 is almost the cost of boots, so side-grading means leaving boots for later which is a big pain. Also, I think stalkers is a big part of Rammus’s ability to gank, since he has no quick jumps or gap closers other than Powerball (which you use to initiate the gank, and so don’t have up to chase with). So my thought is that it just means we need to start with stalkers and stick with it, which is going to hurt his already weak jungle clear (ARG Riot why do you hate jungle diversity so much!).
Does your analysis match my own or is there something I’m missing that I should consider?

I think you are quite right. My opinion is that you have to decide purple or blue depending on team compositions, meaning whats the probability of your early ganks to work? If you feel that odds are on your side go for the blue smite, if not go for purple. switching them is not worth for rammus imo
Knife kitty, night kitty, put you on a slab. Stealthy kitty, hunter kitty, stab stab stab :-)
Scip
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic11293 Posts
February 25 2015 22:57 GMT
#392
I don't think switching is worth for anyone pretty much ever
the main thing about Stalker's is chasing down people in the mid and lategame, it's actually rather difficult to get into taunt range without it in a lot of scenarios. I think just always going Stalkers is fine, you just gotta buy a few more HP pots.
"It may be pleasurable for some of us to imagine being ravished" - Christopher Hitchens in a debate with feminists RIP 2011 Psalm 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
101toss
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
3232 Posts
February 26 2015 03:31 GMT
#393
Rammus has been a fucking terrible jungler since the jungle overhaul in 4.20(?). His clear is terrible, his sustain is terrible, and it doesn't help his q got nerfed. Add in the recent item nerfs and he's nearly unplayable in the jungle.

He's best played as a support with relic shield->targon's->sunfire->situational items here. He doesn't need much gold to be useful/tanky. His kit is good for a support but terrible for actual jungling.
Math doesn't kill champions and neither do wards
Scip
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic11293 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-26 07:45:14
February 26 2015 07:31 GMT
#394
nah, it's alright
alright, Rammus crash course

Runes: AtkSpe Reds, Armor Yellows, CDR Blues, Armor Quints
Masteries: 9/21/0
Level WQWE R>E>W>Q
Start Gromp and clear 5 camps (you can start Golems and clear 5 camps too but it's slower), base, clear 1 more camp, then you get lvl4 and you can gank (or not, just farming more is acceptable). Don't forget to buy HP pots, you need 'em.

Standard build build Stalker's -> Boots1 -> Sunfire -> conditional:
If they have only AD, Ninja Tabi -> Randuins -> Thornmail, then maybe Juggernaut, Warmogs, Frozen Heart.
If they have decent amount of both AP and AD, Locket -> Ninja Tabi -> Randuins, then stuff like Juggernaut, Warmogs, Spirit Visage

I've been experimenting with going Devourer and skipping Sunfire and so far it's always worked out really well but it might just be because everyone I've played against has been trash so far.

also, patch 4.20 KEK
"It may be pleasurable for some of us to imagine being ravished" - Christopher Hitchens in a debate with feminists RIP 2011 Psalm 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
February 26 2015 13:23 GMT
#395
Why Spirit Visage over Banshee? For the CDR?
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
Scip
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic11293 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-26 13:29:48
February 26 2015 13:29 GMT
#396
Yeah, I find the Banshees shield is pretty worthless on Rammus compared to going from 30%->40% CDR
It's a shame Mres items suck, I've experimented with Wit's End as last item but I don't think I'd reccomend it yet lol
"It may be pleasurable for some of us to imagine being ravished" - Christopher Hitchens in a debate with feminists RIP 2011 Psalm 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
101toss
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
3232 Posts
February 26 2015 13:35 GMT
#397
Abyssal is worth considering with sunfire and his fiddle-damage ult
Math doesn't kill champions and neither do wards
Scip
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic11293 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-26 13:39:28
February 26 2015 13:39 GMT
#398
"It may be pleasurable for some of us to imagine being ravished" - Christopher Hitchens in a debate with feminists RIP 2011 Psalm 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
General_Winter
Profile Joined February 2011
United States719 Posts
February 26 2015 14:43 GMT
#399
@Scip: what's the reasoning for leaving juggernaut till late or at least after sunfire and then randuis / locket? Juggernaut is pretty gold efficient ant the tenacity is good too.

I'd thought about Wit's end as well. Since W, R, and Thorn-mail all do magic damage, the resistance shredding might be pretty good. Haven't actually done the math to see if it really works out yet though.
Scip
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic11293 Posts
February 26 2015 15:00 GMT
#400
While Juggernaut does make you more powerful for the period you'd only have giant's belt+cloth armor up until you finish Sunfire, I find that getting the Sunfire quickly in order to enhance your farming speed and ability to push, and also very significantly increase your fighting strength - at that point in the game neither CDR nor tenacity are that important - is worth the temporary sacrifice of delaying Juggernaut.
After Sunfire, I usually get Locket before Juggernaut simply because at that point in the game, you are much more likely to have issues with your teammates dying early, rather than you yourself dying early, and Locket is the best way to help that problem.
With how much hp you get from Locket and Sunfire I think that Ninja Tabi are the most efficient tank items afterwards.
After that, I usually get Randuins before Juggernaut because I find the slow rather useful, but if I don't expect it to be of much use then getting Juggernaut before Randuins is fine.
"It may be pleasurable for some of us to imagine being ravished" - Christopher Hitchens in a debate with feminists RIP 2011 Psalm 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
General_Winter
Profile Joined February 2011
United States719 Posts
February 26 2015 15:22 GMT
#401
Thanks, that makes sense regarding sun-fire cape.

From the recommendation of ninja's tabi, I am guessing that you don't play/like the style of mobi boots and home guard for really fast movement from fountain to lane and then gank / be present in all the lanes with lots of backing. So stylistically, how do you play him?
Scip
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic11293 Posts
February 26 2015 15:43 GMT
#402
Yeah, I never liked the mobi boots homeguards style.
Early game, I'd say my playstyle is somewhat farmy, while you aren't too too weak pre6, you're likely to be weaker than the enemy jungler and you do not have any reliable escapes, so you want to avoid moving in the river, getting countergank and sometimes even counterganking. Your ganks are relatively good, but as usual, just keep farming unless you think you're likely to get a kill, an objective, or almost certain to set up for a kill later by making the enemy flash. I also like smiting the Frog relatively often as it speeds up your farming immensely.

In the early midgame, as with every jungler, you have to be very active and pro-active about dragon and decide whether you're better of fighting for it or trying to generate counterplay top. Rammus is very strong in teamfights in this period because he is both tanky and deals massive damage, so contesting dragon is very often a good idea.

When it comes to later teamfights, there are 2 ways of going about it; either go deep and flash taunt an important target, or stay back and wait for the enemy to jump in in order to taunt them. Grand majority of the time I think the former of the options is better, up until the enemy gets QSS or Michael's to counter your taunt, you are almost always able to focus down important targets with the help of your team. It's worth noting that while you are good at protecting someone from 1 assassin, your taunt is still only single target and might not be able to defend your ADC if the enemy is too heavy on assassination, so don't overestimate yourself.

I think this covers most of it, did I leave anything out?
"It may be pleasurable for some of us to imagine being ravished" - Christopher Hitchens in a debate with feminists RIP 2011 Psalm 2:9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
General_Winter
Profile Joined February 2011
United States719 Posts
February 26 2015 15:59 GMT
#403
That seems to cover everything. Thanks very much
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