|
On February 08 2011 16:57 TheYango wrote:http://www.solomid.net/guides.php?g=1Chaox just put up a Rammus guide on Solomid. Some interesting differences from what we've got here (e.g. getting 3 ranks of Q before level 6, instead of another W rank or straight jumping into E), so IMO it's worth linking in the OP, and maybe warrants some discussion.
No Smite Mastery, HP Quints, Vet Scars over Defensive Mastery (REALLY?), Perseverance over Good Hands, no Greed. I don't like this.
Now check out the REAL PRO Rammus build: Cloth > Boots > Wriggles > Zeal > other speedy items.
|
Yeah, but I really disagree with Q over W or E. It´s taken for the mobility which you get at level 1. The slow? Rammus gets red as jungler, also leveling Taunt is far more usefull than the slow on PB. Each level of PB adds 50 more damage, however Curl increases returndamage and Rammuses passive, Taunt decreases Armor.
Since he is powerballing (with increased costs) everywhere he has to pick up A LOT mana, even though he starts at blue.
|
Higher burst > slightly longer cc.
If you engage in a small skirmish, that taunt really isn't going to help you win.
On a different note, I hate how he gets level 3 in harden skin instead of 2 in defense mastery + 1 in harden skin.
|
Or 3 in hardern skin and 2 in defensive mastery.
Half a second longer taunt can easily mean +150 damage from you and your allies. It also means that the enemy is less likely to use his flash/ghost/some escape spell before he dies. Or in a teamfight, he might not be able to use some nuke in time etc. I would value that over +50 magic damage.
|
It could...if there's enough of you, but chances are that it wouldn`t. If your allies are competent the target will be bursted down in that initial 1 second of taunt. Extra cc would be useful if your allies had good DPS, but few champs do that early on in the game. Early game is all about burst. Burst doesn`t last long.
The point is that front-loaded-reliable damage is a better investment early on. It`ll help you win small skirmishes better, and you jungle faster than if you maxed taunt.
The 3 second cc is godly later on especially when that ranged DPS has tons of attack speed to proc your defense curl.
|
It´s just 50 Damage per level. Taunt does more via its armorreduction against single targets since it multiplies with (allies) attackdamage. You definetly want to prioritize ganking, Runes and Dragonkilling over Wolves and Wraiths.
Also you don´t gimp your ganking for fractions of seconds of faster jungling - if it were even faster. Strong ganks are the reason quick clearing is important.
|
United States47024 Posts
On February 08 2011 19:17 spinesheath wrote:
No Smite Mastery, HP Quints, Vet Scars over Defensive Mastery (REALLY?), Perseverance over Good Hands, no Greed. I don't like this.
The masteries are the biggest thing that stuck out to me--though to be fair he justifies Vet Scars by the fact that Defensive Mastery is worthless in level 1 fights, and Vet Scars isn't, and he's not the only high-Elo player to fall into the Perseverance noob-trap.
With regard to Q vs. W/E, I think we have to be careful about individual comparisons--obviously W is better for clearing camps, and obviously E is better for ganking--but Powerball offers both in one skill. It's not better individually than the other two, but does having rank 3 Powerball, rank 1 DBC, and rank 1 taunt offer a better balance between clearing speed and ganking power than having rank 1 Powerball, rank 2 DBC, and rank 2 taunt?
On February 09 2011 01:20 Unentschieden wrote:
It´s just 50 Damage per level. Taunt does more via its armorreduction against single targets since it multiplies with (allies) attackdamage. You definetly want to prioritize ganking, Runes and Dragonkilling over Wolves and Wraiths.
It's only 5 extra armor reduction per rank--that's going to translate into like 3-4 extra damage per-person per-autoattack (and for most champs, autoattacks are going to be the only low-level source of physical damage--though there are a few exceptions like Panth). At low levels when the debuff only stays on for like 2 seconds, that's 2-3 autoattacks per person (assuming they're even in range to hit your gank target, and don't spend the 2 seconds of taunt to cast spells), which is doesn't add up to 50 damage unless your whole team is hitting one dude.
The armor reduction is worth more later because it's a % increase to physical damage--but at low levels when AD is on the order of 60-70, and attack speeds are fairly low, there's not much damage to multiply.
|
On February 09 2011 01:20 Unentschieden wrote:
It´s just 50 Damage per level. Taunt does more via its armorreduction against single targets since it multiplies with (allies) attackdamage. You definetly want to prioritize ganking, Runes and Dragonkilling over Wolves and Wraiths.
Also you don´t gimp your ganking for fractions of seconds of faster jungling - if it were even faster. Strong ganks are the reason quick clearing is important.
50 damage per level is a monsterous increase in damage. By your reasoning, casters should stop leveling their nukes because they typically don't do 200 base damage at level 3. With blue buff you can sometimes powerball twice in one gank to finish someone off since it's very hard to run away from if you meet rammus in the jungle. It also does immediate burst damage to several targets in a skirmish.
|
My take on the build on the proposed guide, compared to my own sponsored build, is:
- Runes: More flat HP, less armor, less mana regen: This is undoubtedly stronger for level 1 fights and to survive counterjungling, while being worse for actual jungling and for keeping your mana up after you stop hogging the blue buff. It may be that at higher ELO levels than I play in, level 1 fights are a big deal- if so, this choice could make sense, although I'm curious as to why he chose 5 armor seals and 4 mana regen rather than going for full armor.
-Masteries: I agree with Juicyfruit: 2/2 Defensive Mastery + 1/3 Harden Skin >> 3/3 Harden Skin. Veteran's Scars instead of going into Utility for Quickness is a good choice if you care a lot about level 1 fights and surving counterjungling ganks, not so good a choice otherwise. Good Hands >> Perseverance.
- Skill build: I feel this skill build makes for significantly stronger level 5 ganks, but is weaker all the way from level 6 to 14; if you already have Tremors, then extra Taunt duration will make for stronger ganks than a bigger Powerball- and from level 10 onwards, when this build finally catches up in taunt duration, you'll definitely prefer to level up DBC over Powerball. Stronger level 5 ganks are a nice perk to be sure, but I'm not sure they're worth the cost.
- Item build: 100% with him on the "Starting Items" and "First back to base" parts. That said, I'm not a big fan of Randuin's on Rammus- I find the extra damage on Sunfire is more useful early on, and FoN has its upsides over BV- especially if your team has no healer and you're taking incidental damage that you wouldn't heal otherwise (hello Teemo shrooms).
- Jungling routes: I feel he really should include a small golems first jungle route. If you're scared of counterjungling, adding Veteran's Scars and HP quints but not considering a safe jungle opening just seems very silly to me (golem camp is quite exposed and regardless of how much bonus HP you get from masteries and runes, you're still gonna get pretty low if you start there).
Overall, the guide seems viable; there are some unambiguous mistakes (Perseverance over Good Hands, Harden Skin x3 and no Defensive Mastery), an interesting build in Powerball x3 for a strong level 5 gank (which I find is ultimately not worth what it considering what it costs you from level 6 onwards, an interesting variation of which would be going WQQEE then R>E>W>Q, giving you some more oomph for early ganks without hurting your taunt levels later on), and yet another interesting choice in all the extra level 1 HP he goes for from his mastery & rune choices. I'll link it in the OP, as well as edit in this skill build variation which I feel is altogether stronger than the one suggested by the guide.
|
|
|
Ever since the heart of gold change I have trouble playing rammus. Aegis simply isn't an item rammus can afford to get because he needs more cost-effective tanking options for HIMSELF. Since rammus needs to survive a lot of upfront damage to be really effective unlike amumu (who stalls long enough with his ult that he doesn't need to be as uber tanky) he basically needs to go for the most cost-effective items to boost his EHP.
I still get 1 heart of gold for early HP boost and for randuins later, but other than that...suggestions?
The problem extends further because the lack of heart of gold really forces him to cut back on potions which make sustainability a problem. I want to go double philo-stone on him which will let him roam forever but that will in turn make him too squishy. However, the net effect will probably be positive especially in soloQ, and you can sell your philostones for tank item after you used them to pad your early game.
|
On April 18 2011 14:33 Juicyfruit wrote:
Ever since the heart of gold change I have trouble playing rammus. Aegis simply isn't an item rammus can afford to get because he needs more cost-effective tanking options for HIMSELF. Since rammus needs to survive a lot of upfront damage to be really effective unlike amumu (who stalls long enough with his ult that he doesn't need to be as uber tanky) he basically needs to go for the most cost-effective items to boost his EHP.
I still get 1 heart of gold for early HP boost and for randuins later, but other than that...suggestions?
The problem extends further because the lack of heart of gold really forces him to cut back on potions which make sustainability a problem. I want to go double philo-stone on him which will let him roam forever but that will in turn make him too squishy. However, the net effect will probably be positive especially in soloQ, and you can sell your philostones for tank item after you used them to pad your early game.
Sunfire Sunfire Sunfire Sunfire Sunfire Sunfire, pop W and you don't die.
|
Get an early Catalyst imo. Rammus needs some source of mana or mp regen anyway or he can't give up bluebuff, and he obviously wants the HP; Catalyst is just about the best item ever if you want HP and mana so yeah....
|
United States47024 Posts
On April 18 2011 14:33 Juicyfruit wrote:
Ever since the heart of gold change I have trouble playing rammus. Aegis simply isn't an item rammus can afford to get because he needs more cost-effective tanking options for HIMSELF. Since rammus needs to survive a lot of upfront damage to be really effective unlike amumu (who stalls long enough with his ult that he doesn't need to be as uber tanky) he basically needs to go for the most cost-effective items to boost his EHP.
I still get 1 heart of gold for early HP boost and for randuins later, but other than that...suggestions?
The problem extends further because the lack of heart of gold really forces him to cut back on potions which make sustainability a problem. I want to go double philo-stone on him which will let him roam forever but that will in turn make him too squishy. However, the net effect will probably be positive especially in soloQ, and you can sell your philostones for tank item after you used them to pad your early game.
How is Aegis not cost-effective enough for Rammus on himself when the self-stats are more cost-effective than virtually every other option? Even without considering the benefit on allies, you get more EHP per gold from Aegis than BVeil, Sunfire, FoN, GA, etc.
Kobe has been getting fast Aegis on Rammus since well before the HoG nerf (though obviously getting one HoG first). It's viability as an item on Rammus should not be questionable at all.
|
Aegis definitely is good on Rammus.
Other than that... you want HP because you get Armor/Mres from DBC. Get Warmogs. It seems it got stealth buffed to charge from assists now (10% of max charge per assist), which means that Rammus should fill it up really quickly.
|
On April 18 2011 17:03 spinesheath wrote:
Other than that... you want HP because you get Armor/Mres from DBC.
This is true enough. Rammus' base HP and health gain per level are lowish; coupled with the huge amounts of armor/mres you get from DBC, getting a lot of health from items is very important on him. I don't much like Aegis on Rammus, because
a) It only gives 270 HP for 1925g
b) There are better options:
On April 18 2011 16:26 JackDino wrote:
Sunfire Sunfire Sunfire Sunfire Sunfire Sunfire, pop W and you don't die.
Getting an early Sunfire is pretty huge on Rammus- helps your survivability vs. enemy champions, boosts your jungling (you'll be jungling less at this point in the game, but it lets you stay out of the enemy's minimap while giving you some exp and gold, and your jungling speed at this point is pretty bad w/o a Sunfire), lets you clear creepwaves quickly, and makes your Powerball/Taunt/Tremors combo deadlier- enemies usually underestimate the pretty crazy amount of DPS Rammus is capable of once he hits lvl 11 for the second rank in Tremors + Sunfire damage.
I don't like HoG, Randuin's or Aegis on Rammus; as to the latter two, they're much, much better on a tank who can stay protecting his squishies 24/7 like Shen, less so on a tank who rushes into the enemy team. As to mana regen, if you have mana regen yellows you're set; Catalyst might make more sense if you're instead taking armor seals to make space for flat Health quints though.
|
Sunfire is a pretty good item to rush if you pull off early ganks. Otherwise, I don't realistically forsee jungle rammus getting enough gold for giant's belt without stockpiling money which is never good.
If you don't get sunfire early it's a pretty bad item unless you're up against at least 3 squishy champs and no good support, which never happens. There's really no point in making sunfire if you get constantly headbutted off the carry as soon as you powerball up to him.
Randuin is still a really sexy item for rammus because of how good that active is when DBC is activated, and how that passive slow on randuin syngergizes with taunt. Rammus really does need that extra slow because his ability to defend his carries is pretty shitty otherwise.
|
I find it hard to fit Warmog's in where it's early enough to actually matter. Maybe its something with my build.
I go cloth+5pots->HoG->HoG(if I'm down because of counterjungling/failing at ganks)->Aegis->Merc's->Sunfire/Banshees/FoN
By that time, it's already 30 mins into the game... Is Warmog's worth rushing then?
Also, I find Sunfire good always cause it synergizes with everything; armor for the extra dmg, hp with W, extra dmg with taunt/ult.
|
On April 25 2011 10:40 Misder wrote:
I find it hard to fit Warmog's in where it's early enough to actually matter. Maybe its something with my build.
I go cloth+5pots->HoG->HoG(if I'm down because of counterjungling/failing at ganks)->Aegis->Merc's->Sunfire/Banshees/FoN
By that time, it's already 30 mins into the game... Is Warmog's worth rushing then?
As far as tankiness goes, you want a good balance between Armor, MRes and HP, assuming the enemy team has a good mix of Physical and Magical damage. I like to get an early sunfire because all the stats it gives are nice, especially the damage aura if you get it early enough; then I get a Negatron to bring up my MRes up to speed, build it into a FoN, and by level 18 that'll translate into 150 Armor and MRes roughly (assuming merc treads)- more than enough. At this point, I really like Warmog's as my next item, because:
a) DBC gives you a ton more Armor / Mres
b) Lategame, anyone who's a threat to you will probably have Last Whisper / Void Staff- these items make you want to get less Armor / MRes, and more HP.
I'll make a graph to illustrate why getting HP is great at this point when I finish watching yesterday's TSL VODs.
|
I have come to the conclusion that rammus just sucks and that the only time you can be expected to do good sorta-good is when their team is loaded on physical damage.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
