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I approve of TreeEski's approach on Ashe. Someone tell him to go CDR Ashe to maximize the kiting/Volley spam. (although I kinda felt he unnecessarily pushed the lane way too often, but that's kinda common on high level streams, should I understand that? And no, he did not push to go back, he pushed and then decided to go back)
The thing with Meki Sivir against Boots/Dshield Ashe is: You are not going to do shit at level 1-3. Boots wins with dodging/kiting, shield simply wins because of the higher HP and regen. Thereby you don't even get enough farm to get that tear very early, and by going back early you further increase your disadvantage.
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If you are hugging your tower and not extending beyond it for fear of a gank/arrow then you are losing farm. Not to mention for probably the 50th time in this thread, if you getting massive farm, you really are at a disadvantage.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 21 2011 04:25 zomgzergrush wrote:
You spell shield the volleys that you need to and if your spell shield is down, don't put yourself in danger. Past 6, yes, ashes have figured out that they can't get volleys to land on me and will bait my SS with volley so they can get an arrow off on me. Solution: don't extend when ashe is 6 and go for the quick clearing of each wave and backing off to safety. You also no longer need SS for mana anymore and don't need to purposely soak volleys. Stay behind minions and just wait for the arrow or SS volleys only when safely close to your tower.
Wait, so you quick-clear the wave...and somehow subsequent creep waves meet in the middle/your side of the river anyway?
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On February 21 2011 04:26 spinesheath wrote:I approve of TreeEski's approach on Ashe. Someone tell him to go CDR Ashe to maximize the kiting/Volley spam. (although I kinda felt he unnecessarily pushed the lane way too often, but that's kinda common on high level streams, should I understand that? And no, he did not push to go back, he pushed and then decided to go back) The thing with Meki Sivir against Boots/Dshield Ashe is: You are not going to do shit at level 1-3. Boots wins with dodging/kiting, shield simply wins because of the higher HP and regen. Thereby you don't even get enough farm to get that tear very early, and by going back early you further increase your disadvantage.
The disadvantage decisively swings when that manamune is done. Having doran as sivir first wouldn't help sivir significantly vs boots ashe anyway so why not just start on the manamune early? Now that I think about it, starting longsword would probably pepper your tastes better but I just like to get my tear + boots asap.
On February 21 2011 04:29 BloodNinja wrote:
If you are hugging your tower and not extending beyond it for fear of a gank/arrow then you are losing farm.
Is anyone fully reading the posts? You aren't sitting on the tower without moving to get farm. You clear it instantly in a few riccochets and a BB swoop and THEN back off. The pressure of constant boomerang pushes ashe AWAY from constantly being able to zone you safely.
On February 21 2011 04:32 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 04:25 zomgzergrush wrote:
You spell shield the volleys that you need to and if your spell shield is down, don't put yourself in danger. Past 6, yes, ashes have figured out that they can't get volleys to land on me and will bait my SS with volley so they can get an arrow off on me. Solution: don't extend when ashe is 6 and go for the quick clearing of each wave and backing off to safety. You also no longer need SS for mana anymore and don't need to purposely soak volleys. Stay behind minions and just wait for the arrow or SS volleys only when safely close to your tower. Wait, so you quick-clear the wave...and somehow subsequent creep waves meet in the middle/your side of the river?
I'm really not making this up. You quick clear the wave and the wave will always end up meeting in the middle. Changing this to being on ashes side so she gets an advantage means ashe needs to tank minion damage if she really wants it to be there.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 21 2011 04:33 zomgzergrush wrote:
I'm really not making this up. You quick clear the wave and the wave will always end up meeting in the middle. Changing this to being on ashes side so she gets an advantage means ashe needs to tank minion damage if she really wants it to be there.
By the time you're the level where you can clear the wave that fast, Ashe is at the level where she can kill the melee minions and tank 3 caster minions for the time necessary for the next wave to get there.
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On February 21 2011 04:37 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 04:33 zomgzergrush wrote:
I'm really not making this up. You quick clear the wave and the wave will always end up meeting in the middle. Changing this to being on ashes side so she gets an advantage means ashe needs to tank minion damage if she really wants it to be there. By the time you're the level where you can clear the wave that fast, Ashe is at the level where she can kill the melee minions and tank 3 caster minions for the time necessary for the next wave to get there.
Repeatedly? And remember with manamune this point REALLY DOES come earlier. Also with manamune, while shes tanking that creep damage there's another BB coming up her way.
I guess that's the biggest thing. There's ALWAYS a BB coming at her and this fact alone changes a lot. In TreeEskimo's vods the point he mentioned repeatedly is ashe's range advantage vs sivir. This advantage is gone when sivir has no boomerang limit.
Servers need to be up so that someone can at least give it a shot >.<
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Let's just stop theorycrafting and resume it after the zomgzergrush vs EzPz duel
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I'm like 90% confident this isn't another "antpile's pwnage mass queen build" argument I'm making.
On February 21 2011 04:42 Kaniol wrote:
Let's just stop theorycrafting and resume it after the zomgzergrush vs EzPz duel
I'd really like that actually because I really have never lost a lane vs an ashe with this. When I went for doran/BT I had issues vs ashe for the very reasons illustrated by TreeEskimo (minus the fail SS's that guy had).
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Here's how you play ashe vs sivir. Ashe, abuse the timing when sivir can't clear waves.
Sivir, when you get to a level when you can clear waves fast, do it so ashe is pushed back and to force a draw in creep farming, and if she fights, she needs to fight vs creeps.
OMG Numbers why you so gud. You so gud you blow my mind.
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Let's talk some numbers (lol not you, 0123456789 :p)
Tear costs 980 gold
Manamune costs 2110 gold
Assuming perfect solo lane farm and including the 475 base gold, by the time you can buy a Tear you are level 4. By the time you can afford a Manamune you are level 7.
However you cannot farm perfectly against Ashe when you cannot heal any of her harrass. So realistically speaking you get Tear by level 5-6, Manamune by level 8-9. So Ashe has 4-5 levels where she can push you around easily, and another 4 levels where all she has to do is dodge BBs because you still can't fight her. You will probably end up 50+ cs behind by the time you get Manamune.
Oh and I have no trouble instantly farming every wave without a Tear once I hit lvl 7 (or was it 5?). Or at least I can do it long enough.
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On February 21 2011 04:55 spinesheath wrote:
Oh and I have no trouble instantly farming every wave without a Tear once I hit lvl 7 (or was it 5?). Or at least I can do it long enough.
This is the part that really puzzles me about people who run manamune, I don't run any mana regen on sivir at all and Ive never had any trouble with mana past level seven.
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I generally get tear and boots around level 5-6. I never had ashe be up 50+ cs while still being able to zone me....
Sure you won't have issues with mana without manamune by managing mana. Managing mana means you're throwing less BB, that's the main point everyone keeps missing.
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None of the "advantages" you have stated v Ashe have anything to do with Manamune or Tear. It's just you playing bad players and mismanaging your mana.
That's all there is too it; Ashe absolutely crushes Sivir in lane until she can instantly clear creep waves.
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All your talk of "Once I finish manamune the advantage swings to my favour" is ridiculous. Ashe can zone Sivir from level 1 and a good Ashe should. There is no reason for them to let you even get experience.
Furthermore, you mentioned earlier that Manamune gives you so much mana "you can't even run out of you tried", It isn't a good thing to have more mana regen than you need, let alone can use - it's wasting money. As for mana problems on sivir, I run dual mp5/lvl and I have 0 problems after level 5/6. Don't spam BB early, it's as simple as that.
You mention "Managing mana means throwing less BB" which you seem to imply is a bad thing, it's not. 1 BB per wave is completely sufficient, you're not going to be ganking or in team fights that early so you don't need more than 1 per wave. And once you do feel the need to spam BB you'll be of a high enough level that MP5/lvl's will take care of it.
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ashe the least of your worries if you open meki on sivir. Literally every ranged dps will kill you, every mage will burst you xin irelia will stomp the fuck out of you. hell my solomid jax would truck ur shit. theres 0 chance ur getting any farm vs competent people
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United States37500 Posts
Love theorycrafters talking shit out with EzPz. The logic is hilar. hurr
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lol fuck this shit
zomgzergrush add me in game
and we can do some 1 v 1's and ill show u why ashe dominates sivir
edit:oh yea btw if u need anything more than 9 yellow mana regen/lvl on sivir to manage mana ur doing it wrong
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Was already posted last page broski.
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too much theorycraft
too few leaguecraft
go go custom game, test it out
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EPT
