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Masteries
0/16/14 ( Meditation gives you more flexibility to spam BB early game )
-SoS, Nimbleness, HP, Improved Cleanse, Improved Flash
0/21/9 ( Lets you get Tanky late game, but mana starved before Lvl 9 )
-Same as above, but Tenacity for Meditation and Improved Buffs
21/0/9 ( Pure DPS, if you have a team that can get stuff off you )
-Standard DPS Masteries
Runes
APen Marks
Flat HP / APen Quints
Mp5 Seals
MR Glyphs
Summoner Spells:
Take Cleanse. Just do it. No exceptions. Unless you're trolling.
The second spell is more flexible. I personally run Flash nowdays, but I've had success with anything and everything else.
Teleport / Ghost are good for pushing.
Heal gives free EHP in team fights.
Exhaust makes it harder for Melee DPS to shit on you.
Skills:
QEQW R>Q>W>E, unless you need E at Level 1 against certain champions.
Some Notes:
-Q Range is actually slightly longer than what the circle represents
-On hit effects don't apply on Ricochet, but APen (Flat and %) works
Itams:
Open Doran's Shield on hard lanes that can harass you well, Doran's Sword otherwise. Mercs or Zerks for Boots.
In General, you want as many BloodThirsters as you can stack, coupled with a LW to maximize Ricochet and BB damage. Get a Tank Item mid-game (Mog>Banshee>GA at the moment). IE/BR are also good DPS options. PD can replace Boots if you have the money in late game.
Playstyle:
Farm the first 20 minutes, no exceptions. Dragon is ok, but that's about it really. (Unless your team get a red somehow, then ganks with R is okish) Also feel free to farm neutrals if your jungle is ganking or sucking.
Click R in teamfights and attack move, honestly that's all you need to do. Q/E as needed.
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Also BB the Wraiths when your jungle's trying to kill them.
QQ
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what are benchmark CS numbers at 10, 15, 20 minutes?
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Or more realistically 90, 160, 250
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United States37500 Posts
No, Mogwai's right.
...
>_>
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What are the thoughts on maxing Ricochet before Boomerang Blade now that it scales with attack damage?
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I thought 100 by 15 was considered pretty good T_T
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On November 06 2010 01:05 azndsh wrote:
I thought 100 by 15 was considered pretty good T_T
With Sivir it's pretty bad though, especially if you get Teleport(lot of fun with Sivir)
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On November 06 2010 01:07 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 01:05 azndsh wrote:
I thought 100 by 15 was considered pretty good T_T With Sivir it's pretty bad though, especially if you get Teleport(lot of fun with Sivir)
That's true, Sivir usually has 100 cs by the time minions spawn ^^
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Sivir ends up with 500+. Team ends up with 100+ at best. Thanks TP sivir.
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On November 06 2010 00:21 Southlight wrote:
Also BB the Wraiths when your jungle's trying to kill them.
QQ
QQQQQ i did it on ShitCombo and took his exp, and he blamed himself for dying at wolves 2funny
Shikyo's numbers are about right. I hit 160~ last game in 20 mins jungling Sivir.
@STS BB got a buff at every level, so I'm not sure what you're asking~
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I might be mistaken but the tooltip says that BB does magic damage even though it's affected by AD. Armor pen or LW won't help much for BB i think.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
On November 07 2010 01:44 Haemonculus wrote:
I might be mistaken but the tooltip says that BB does magic damage even though it's affected by AD. Armor pen or LW won't help much for BB i think.
correct, but it helps for ricochet
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Ricochet - getting you kills somewhere somehow
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I have to argue with the skill order. I'd go WQQE or EQQW because I never, ever spam rank 1 BB because, with its totally low base damage, it does shit damage/mana at level 1. Since I'm not gonna be casting it at all until level 3, no point in getting it at level 1. Unless I am against a good SS champ, I get ricochet at level 1.
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On November 08 2010 04:23 Pigsquirrel wrote:
I have to argue with the skill order. I'd go WQQE or EQQW because I never, ever spam rank 1 BB because, with its totally low base damage, it does shit damage/mana at level 1. Since I'm not gonna be casting it at all until level 3, no point in getting it at level 1. Unless I am against a good SS champ, I get ricochet at level 1.
in terms of a lvl 1 teamfight, bb is the most obvious option. ricochet isnt going to do shit, spellshield isnt going to do shit, meanwhile bb will enhance your lvl 1 dps the most. Ofc, dont level it at spawn, cus if a lvl 1 teamfight doesnt happen and you go to lane and realize you need shield, you're kinda in trouble, buuut, i'd say any situation where you're fighting against other champs @ lvl 1, you want bb
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I found attack -> move a bit -> attack -> move a bit to be really effective way to use her passive.
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I already listed EQQW. W first does nothing, either in lane or Lvl 1 fights. Lvl 1 BB is your only use in a Lvl 1 fight, and also lets you get some creeps you might have missed. You aren't supposed to spam BB anyways, unless you go something stupid like Manamune.
@R04R, that's true but don't overdo it since you will more than likely lost DPS from doing that. I usually only animation cancel that way when I know I'll come out ahead in a fight early on, so I can get a couple more hits in.
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What are cooldowns like on sivir? Is it worth having faster BB's or is her attack + ricochet more than enough?
Quicker spell shield is nice too : [ ]
Also when should I be pushing with Sivir? Say it's solo or 1v2 top lane, do I want to keep the lane even or constantly be pushing and getting in hits on the tower?
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Even on the old AP Sivir gimick, C/D was bad so don't get it. All your dps should be from Ricochet, BB is just free magic damage. Easily hits 500 damage each way mid game.
Sivir should be playing passive for the most part, so keep the lane even. Early game, your goal is more to farm than to push towers. If you push your tower down too fast, the lane actually becomes more dangerous to farm. Also, top is bad for Sivir cause many champions can easily zone you out compared to mid~
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On November 06 2010 09:40 Yiruru wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 00:21 Southlight wrote:
Also BB the Wraiths when your jungle's trying to kill them.
QQ QQQQQ i did it on ShitCombo and took his exp, and he blamed himself for dying at wolves 2funny Shikyo's numbers are about right. I hit 160~ last game in 20 mins jungling Sivir. @STS BB got a buff at every level, so I'm not sure what you're asking~
My buy button is over my E skill so udyr took fucking bear stance and then I didn't level off the big wolf LOL.
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Bearded Elder29903 Posts
I've never seen a good Sivir player in my life.
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United States37500 Posts
On November 08 2010 21:14 Crucifix wrote:
I've never seen a good Sivir player in my life.
Find Yiruru, ask him to play Sivir. Prepare for the easiest game of your life.
This remind me of early Feb when we had the first League of Legends thread by Psyonic. I remember everyone putting Sivir in "sucks ass" tier until ruru came along and just stomped all the TL players with her. Then everyone reformed to "Sivir sucks ass unless Yiruru's playing".
huk
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huk can barely carry a team in ranked after starting 2-0 and getting aces in every fight
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On November 09 2010 23:44 Yiruru wrote:
huk can barely carry a team in ranked after starting 2-0 and getting aces in every fight
Tell us ur Sivir build!
edit: oh ur the OP i look like a tard.
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I think that, without a mana item, BB is just a waste. Imo, meki-> tear is a good, if not opener, early option to let you spam BB the whole game. If the game goes long, I can upgrade the tear into a MM for added damage, but don't need to often.
Thoughts?
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
On November 12 2010 00:59 Pigsquirrel wrote:
I think that, without a mana item, BB is just a waste. Imo, meki-> tear is a good, if not opener, early option to let you spam BB the whole game. If the game goes long, I can upgrade the tear into a MM for added damage, but don't need to often.
Thoughts?
or just get mana regen yellow runes and save yourself the trouble of buying a crappy item
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On November 12 2010 00:59 Pigsquirrel wrote:
I think that, without a mana item, BB is just a waste. Imo, meki-> tear is a good, if not opener, early option to let you spam BB the whole game. If the game goes long, I can upgrade the tear into a MM for added damage, but don't need to often.
Thoughts?
Tear is terrible for Sivir. You aren't ryze or annie, slinging spells off every 3 seconds. Sivir simply doesn't cast enough tear-triggering spells to make it worth buying. If you *must* invest in a mana item, just grab a chalice.
But I agree with the above post that runes are a much simpler solution. Or spec utility and start with an extra free 5mp5.
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The only advantage Sivir has over traditional carries is your ability to farm, so no wasting gold on a bad item is not a good idea. If the game goes long, you need the extra slot for better items, and Mp5s should be giving you enough mana at that point. The only time I would get a mana item is when I run MR Seals/Glyphs with Chalice, which easily gives me 120MR before 15 minutes against AP heavy teams.
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Okay... Sivir vs Kennen mid. What the fuck do I do? This just happened and I got zoned so hard Kennen was lv 5 while I was still 1.
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Dorans Shield, Flat HP Quints, Spec Defensive and use E well and you should be fine, just play passive.
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Do you know wether Spell shield or banshees take priority? because youd want your E to procc first if you get it, but I am unsure which one...
Oh and I found x3 D blade manamune to give me a REALLY solid midgame, but maybe thats just me...
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iirc, if ur banshee's is up and u spellshield, it will pop both of them, which sux
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the thing about sivir is that she ain't fun or interesting to play in anyway, Attack move all the way yo...
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On November 22 2010 02:03 Shizuru~ wrote:
the thing about sivir is that she ain't fun or interesting to play in anyway, Attack move all the way yo...
You could change your sentence to fit literally every hero in LoL. Sivir is fun to me because she's a walking escape mechanism and her skillshot is AoE + really powerful.
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On November 21 2010 21:47 barbsq wrote:
iirc, if ur banshee's is up and u spellshield, it will pop both of them, which sux
so dont spellshield?
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On November 22 2010 02:03 Shizuru~ wrote:
the thing about sivir is that she ain't fun or interesting to play in anyway, Attack move all the way yo...
but but but RICOCHETS!
Also its mad fun running around with sivir and dodge runes, masteries and ninja tabi and seeing the most frustratedyi, youll ever see.
On November 22 2010 02:34 HeavOnEarth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2010 21:47 barbsq wrote:
iirc, if ur banshee's is up and u spellshield, it will pop both of them, which sux so dont spellshield?
iirc it only popped one of them last time I tried, I will try again tomorrow but I was just too lazy to try it out
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe your Q does magic damage (based on AD) and ricochet bounces ignore armor. Is it not then a better idea to get flat/scaling AD runes rather than armor pen? These runes would improve all of your
-autoattack
-ricochets
-boomerang
rather than just your autoattack. I personally would be inclined to run something like:
-ad/lvl marks
-mp5/lvl yellows and blues
-Flat AD quints
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Ricochet benefits from ArPen, and scales better to late game. Early game should be passive farming, so just learn to farm with the AD you have already. The extra AD comes out to like 9 AD from marks, which translattes to ~2 extra dmg from Q. Not exactly something you wanna sacrifice for; the 25% was a nice little buff but not something you should focus on.
- Yiruru #1 Fan hihihihi
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On November 22 2010 11:02 Jougen wrote:
Ricochet benefits from ArPen, and scales better to late game. Early game should be passive farming, so just learn to farm with the AD you have already. The extra AD comes out to like 9 AD from marks, which translattes to ~2 extra dmg from Q. Not exactly something you wanna sacrifice for; the 25% was a nice little buff but not something you should focus on.
- Yiruru #1 Fan hihihihi
I thought it scaled with 75% of her AD meaning 9 would translate to ~7. Still not something to itemize for (ArPen still better on her)
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I refer to the extra AD more in the sense of hitting people in the early game. I haven't played much Sivir in any case, so I'm not really qualified to comment on her.
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APen affects Ricochet (This is in the OP)
I haven't seen any convincing math for AD/APen runes yet, so I didn't put them in. I would never recommend flat AD though, they're like only good on Pantheon basically. You rarely want to hit people early game anyways, you lose in the trade against most solos.
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
yea i rarely even try to hit the opponent with boomerang unless they are being very aggressive and i can get creep aggro to help me out in the trade. otherwise
reach lvl 5 ----> boomerang every wave --> get 6-7 cs every single time and keep their lane pushed so they cant gank
you can have tower down in 10-12 mins if their jungler doesnt cover mid for them
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I just played a game against a shitty sivir, basically she was like ~8-11-12 at the end of the game and was ganked a few times pretty early and we were up a ton of kills throughout the entire game. At the end she had 3 boodthirsters, GA, Banshees, berserker boots, and we nearly lost the game as she she was pooping all over us with the life steal+autoattack+ricochet unless if we had 3 people focusing on her. it was absolutely ridiculous, Now I know why hotshot and other people call her the autoattack hero :x
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United States47024 Posts
On November 23 2010 22:43 Yiruru wrote:
APen affects Ricochet (This is in the OP)
I haven't seen any convincing math for AD/APen runes yet, so I didn't put them in. I would never recommend flat AD though, they're like only good on Pantheon basically. You rarely want to hit people early game anyways, you lose in the trade against most solos.
Doesn't Jiji run flat AD quints on her? I know he still runs APen marks though.
IIRC his Sivir page was APen Marks/Mp5 Glyphs+Seals/Flat AD Quints.
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Most people associate jungle Sivirs with trolls. I have begun to jungle with Sivir in solo queue every time we don't have another jungle. Why?
Pros:
She can hold lanes/prevent pushes extremely well
Jungle > no jungle.
Double Buff Sivir with ult is deadly, especially if the gank target has pushed all the way.
Boomerang Blade from jungle at a B'ing enemy - I usually get 1-2 kills per game this way.
They never expect it!
It's Sivir ffs!
Cons:
Easily counterejungled.
Can't gank near as well as WW, Rammus, Mumu, Fid, etc.
Needs smite (and smite/ignite for golem first)
Slow dragon
Masteries:
1-21-8 - Make sure you get Veteran's Scars.
Runes: Dodge yellows and HP quints are the only major concerns. Anything else you roll with Sivir for blues/reds. (I go scaling CD/Armpen)
Summoners: Smite/ghost or Smite/flash (smite/ignite for golem first) You can use cleanse, I am not a fan of that spell period though.
Skill orders:
QWQEQR R>Q>W>E
Greedy but easier jungle/pushing:
QWQWQREQ R>Q>W>E This leaves you vulnerable to ganks but speeds up your wolves/wraiths, as well as can earn you an early tower kill if you use the extra rank in W to push a lane. I only take W over E at level 4 if I am just about to try to knock over a tower.
Item build:
Madreds -> Boots of Choice -> Starks -> LOTS OF BLOODTHIRSTERS/ BT and Phantom Dancer. Survivability sometime if you are smart. Either sell Madreds or upgrade to lantern. DO NOT turn it into a BR, as it doesn't proc on bounces.
Golem First:
[spoiler]
Very cheesy. Requires Smite and Ignite, and isn't reliable.
Open Cloth + 5 hpot.
Smite and ignite golem spamming boomerang blades like no other. Try to make them hit only him-not the lizards.
Standard opening:
Cloth + 3 hpot (or more, but 3 allows you to get Long Sword immediately after your fist lap, however the small golems will be much more difficult.)
Open BB
Start at wraiths. Smite big wraith then throw BB. Do not let it hit the big wraith. Use a healing pot, then kill off small wraiths. Go dogs then small golems. Small golems are the trickiest part of your jungle. BB and smite the farthest one (that was hit 2nd and 3rd time by BB). Kill it with autoattacks if it still lives. Autoattack the other one if it still lives. Use ricochet if you will not have enough mana for a second BB, but if you are close, avoid using ricochet, ie. 30 mana, use ricochet, 60 mana, save for BB and kill smited golem with regular attacks. You may have to dance to get your passive between autoattacks if it's things get dicey.
Go B and buy a long sword if you can afford it, else get health pot(s) + ward. Ward something for lulz. Kill wolves, smite wraiths, then small golems again. Save smite + BBs for golems. Go B and get Razor + health pots. You should have no trouble getting blue. Then you are free to start rampaging with boomerang blades. Take red and gank a lane. Once you are level 6 with Vamp, ult, and blue, you can dragon. (with the changes to dragon this has become REALLY REALLY HARD, so I would recommend either double buff (make sure to hit him before blue wears out) or a buddy.
After that, jungling becomes EZmode. Enjoy. Sometime when you feel like it, stop Jungling and start Siviring. The enemy will likely forget about you and QQ when, during the first teamfight, they lose two other towers to the bluebuff Sivir ulting every 30 seconds.
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y not have ur middle draw blue aggro so you can get 3 or 4 autos + a bb off on blue? with new aggro system it will shift to you once about its in the bush
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locodoco said to get damage only on sivir because R gives attack speed. Is that right? Should I ever get madreds for non tanky teams too? Is there ever a time when sivir needs two defense items instead of just warmogs or banshees? Is it ever wrong to get 5 bloodthirsters?
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locodoco said to get damage only on sivir because R gives attack speed. Is that right?
That and Zerker greaves.
Should I ever get madreds for non tanky teams too?
Depends, if you really need single target focus. Most of the time, it's better to just get armor pen and all that jazz.
Is there ever a time when sivir needs two defense items instead of just warmogs or banshees
Yes, if it's really really late game and your team can't initiate and is useless without you. Might want to think about GA.
Is it ever wrong to get 5 bloodthirsters?
No. Never.
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So basically besides the occasional madreds for someone like cho, sivir doesn't ever need an attack speed item besides greaves?
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On February 01 2011 14:36 zulu_nation8 wrote:
So basically besides the occasional madreds for someone like cho, sivir doesn't ever need an attack speed item besides greaves?
loco is a lot better than I am but tbh I don't agree... for example after thirster I think sword of the divine is a very strong pickup
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On February 01 2011 14:36 zulu_nation8 wrote:
So basically besides the occasional madreds for someone like cho, sivir doesn't ever need an attack speed item besides greaves?
The thing is, ArPen affects Ricochet so with things like Last Whisper, you'll be able to tear through most of the armor anyway. Also consider that autoattacking tanks is just a way to make your ricochet hit their carries.
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On February 01 2011 15:12 dnastyx wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 14:36 zulu_nation8 wrote:
So basically besides the occasional madreds for someone like cho, sivir doesn't ever need an attack speed item besides greaves? The thing is, ArPen affects Ricochet so with things like Last Whisper, you'll be able to tear through most of the armor anyway. Also consider that autoattacking tanks is just a way to make your ricochet hit their carries.
This. 4 BT's + LW will do more damage than 5 BT's. Generally speaking, I wouldn't get items like SotD or madreds on sivir simply b/c her ult provides AS and in many cases sivir can just attack the tank and kill the rest of the opposing team from ricochet and her BB combined. Your madreds and SotD procs only will affect the single target you attack, and b/c her autoattack range is a lot smaller than other AD carries, it's better to attack the tank and ricochet off him so you don't need to get so close/in the middle of the entire opposing team. The tank himself won't really be affected as much b/c they will have more MR. Thus, it's not as efficient.
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21/0/9 the norm not the exception
0/21/9 vs hard lanes
R>Q>W>E
1 in E by level 4
toggle W early to mid game when u need to save mana
don't ever turn it off once u hit 14
2~3 doran swords->serker(always never mercs)->thirster
up to this point is core,u should almost never waiver
after u have these items u should consider
Banshee: probably the most common follow up item
another Thirster:it's usually better than getting an lw,due to people not having that much armor or ur its still a stalemate
LW: once 2+ people have 120+ armor u need this or ur gonna be doing minuscule dmg
IE: never ever make more than 2 thirsters,i learned this the hard way,after 2 thirsters u need an IE not another thirster
armor pen quints and reds
mana regen yellows and blues
flash/ghost
here's my build on sivir,slightly different from yiruru,mine is more glass cannon-y but i like it better :3
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IE: never ever make more than 2 thirsters,i learned this the hard way,after 2 thirsters u need an IE not another thirster
But it's hilarious to lose 120 damage on death!
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On February 01 2011 19:15 BlackPaladin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 15:12 dnastyx wrote:On February 01 2011 14:36 zulu_nation8 wrote:
So basically besides the occasional madreds for someone like cho, sivir doesn't ever need an attack speed item besides greaves? The thing is, ArPen affects Ricochet so with things like Last Whisper, you'll be able to tear through most of the armor anyway. Also consider that autoattacking tanks is just a way to make your ricochet hit their carries. This. 4 BT's + LW will do more damage than 5 BT's. Generally speaking, I wouldn't get items like SotD or madreds on sivir simply b/c her ult provides AS and in many cases sivir can just attack the tank and kill the rest of the opposing team from ricochet and her BB combined. Your madreds and SotD procs only will affect the single target you attack, and b/c her autoattack range is a lot smaller than other AD carries, it's better to attack the tank and ricochet off him so you don't need to get so close/in the middle of the entire opposing team. The tank himself won't really be affected as much b/c they will have more MR. Thus, it's not as efficient.
i don't even consider the magic damage, 60 attack speed and 30 armor pen for less than 2000 gold just juices you so stupidly
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I open armor (vs most lanes) into HoG on sivir. Am I bad Yiruru.
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I saw regi open cloth into razors a few days ago
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dont mention regis sivir
its too lol
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On February 13 2011 09:26 Yiruru wrote:
dont mention regis sivir
its too lol
dude call me daddy bro
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Is Cleanse still better than Ghost on Sivir?
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I like to actually open manamune with sivir. It's a very different playstyle from most but seriously having the ability to throw a boomerang at an opponent the second your cd is done every single time is so convenient. It's so hard to get killed when you outrange them all day.
I know many frown upon the manamune but I'd like to put in my two cents and see if you guys don't change your mind.
- HP quints, apen red, everything else mana regen (mostly just to help the early phases pre-tear)
season masteries to taste but I find finishing the utility tree most beneficial.
- ghost + flash. I really like this combo so I can be both offensive for the kill and also to gtfo when it gets hot. Cleanse is cool but having BOTH ghost and flash really lets you get those kills that just need a short chase to finish the job. Yeah yeah sivir has a built in ghost but it's hardly fast enough to finish your chase soon enough without over extending often times. Also ghost stacks on your ult so if you're getting chased with ghost, there's no way they're getting to you.
skilling is standard priority, Q, W, E (W and E order depends on your opponent/taste), followed with a priority of R>Q>W>E.
-start meki + hp pot + mana pot (with the SS and common sense, I can't see the need for two HP pots. Around level 5 or 6 I pop the blue. Great if opponent is being aggressive and spending all their mana.)
-tear + boots if you can.
-manamune (or finished boots first)
-boots situational of course, unless theres an enormous amount of enemy CC I get zerkers
-bloodthirster
-black cleaver
-sword of the divine (sometimes starks if I have that kind of money)
-luxury item to your needs. I tend to do another BT.
I know many people will say:
"why not just start with bloodthirster? Manamune sucks, waste of money. Last hit, no need for mana. Rely on spell shield."
Manamune is friggen awesome on siv for a number of reasons.
1. obviously you spam the crap out of your boomerang.
2. by spamming the crap out of your boomerang you can harass the hell out of your opponents. It's impossible to run out of mana even if you tried.
3. an always on W ensures continual bounces off creeps to enemies, harassing the hell out of them. Remember your riccochet's CAN'T BE DODGED.
4. sivir continually procs BOTH of the manamune passives, which means it is always permanently increasing your attack damage unlike BT. Manamune grows the entire game.
5. no need to worry bout a slip up and losing BT stacks.
6. since you're spamming the crap out of your boomerang you are always at a SAFE DISTANCE while being annoying as hell at the same time. Feel free to farm at a really long distance if you're getting zoned without worrying about mana.
7. relax, the BT comes next. You're sivir, you get farm easily. Very Very easily thanks to manamune. It will come quick.
A side bonus is that from a relatively early level you get to insta-clear each creep wave. Now I know that this is frowned on but by doing so, you are slowly minion pushing the opposing tower to death if the enemy champion physically cannot clear the wave quickly.
If they can clear the wave and both you and your enemy's tower aren't getting scratched all game you are most likely getting more cs than the enemy since you are tower denying minions. This is not the same as "pushing the line forward and opening yourself to a gank," this is "clear the line out instantly and completely and then retreating as your minions do your bidding."
If you neglect mana regen items and rely solely on your SS for mana regen, a good opponent will simply NOT give you anything on your SS or make you waste it by intentionally not hitting you with their abilities (i.e. shooting at creeps instead). This is especially an issue with ashe where you don't get time to see exactly where the volley is directed and have to just react to the sound+visuals with your SS.
Try it!
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1) meki+ 2 hp pots.
"i cant see any reason why you would need more than 1 hp pot because you are playing bad people . bad laners, period"
i would easily zone any sivir that opens meki with my ashe
dblade- still win
boots + 3 pots- ur not gettin any cs
cloth armor+ 5 hp pots- u are going to get fb'd are u'r going to go back.
2)
"helps sivir farm"
doesn't help you at all sivir farms fine(if not exactly the same...) without it.
Obviously you compare BT and mananume DMG output and alas, mananume sucks.
"helps u harass enemy"
why are you harassing enemy when u can just clear creeps then go do wraiths?
you are seriously just sitting there throwing boomerang at the enemy and not farming?
Bad. nothing else to say about that.
3) you are trying to contradict yiruru, without even giving a hint to your own elo. i find that funny and it discredits your whole post when everytime i read a sentence i dont see sivir advice i see
" lol is this guy negative elo?"
obviously i dont do this all the time but when ur trying to go against the advice of arguably the best sivir player you ought to at least post something
4) your pure dmg items are terrible, the flat penetration items indicate you play ranked games where everyone picks 4 solo laners and a jungler and zero tanks.
i could go on n on.
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Actually i used to think that Sivir is a crappy champ but then i stopped building manamune on her and it turned out she is awesome. Why spend so much gold on manamune when it can be replaced by you managing your mana better?
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United States47024 Posts
My rule with Archangels/Manamune is this: Do you need infinite mana? If yes, get it. If no, manage mana better and get something else.
Anivia, Kassadin, and Corki all can do something with "limitless" mana because they can literally burn everything if they need it (it's possible to run out their mana even with blue buff). Sivir doesn't need infinite mana--she just needs a baseline amount so that she can use Boomerang Blades--she has virtually no other sources of heavy mana consumption. Manamune then is over-investing inefficiently into mana regeneration. Just run off runes/masteries and manage your mana better.
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On February 20 2011 23:20 HeavOnEarth wrote:
1) meki+ 2 hp pots.
"i cant see any reason why you would need more than 1 hp pot because you are playing bad people . bad laners, period"
i would easily zone any sivir that opens meki with my ashe
dblade- still win
boots + 3 pots- ur not gettin any cs
cloth armor+ 5 hp pots- u are going to get fb'd are u'r going to go back.
2)
"helps sivir farm"
doesn't help you at all sivir farms fine(if not exactly the same...) without it.
Obviously you compare BT and mananume DMG output and alas, mananume sucks.
"helps u harass enemy"
why are you harassing enemy when u can just clear creeps then go do wraiths?
you are seriously just sitting there throwing boomerang at the enemy and not farming?
Bad. nothing else to say about that.
3) you are trying to contradict yiruru, without even giving a hint to your own elo. i find that funny and it discredits your whole post when everytime i read a sentence i dont see sivir advice i see
" lol is this guy negative elo?"
obviously i dont do this all the time but when ur trying to go against the advice of arguably the best sivir player you ought to at least post something
4) your pure dmg items are terrible, the flat penetration items indicate you play ranked games where everyone picks 4 solo laners and a jungler and zero tanks.
i could go on n on.
I don't see how u can zone sivir as ashe with dblade when its physically impossible for ashe to get in range...volleys is all she can throw and if you're compitent sivir you're just SSing them all. I don't think you've met sivirs who actually use their boomerangs correctly if you're zoning em out as ashe. I have NEVER been zoned out by ashe as sivir before simply because ashe can never get close enough to get a normal attack off and all volleys just get SS'd.
health pots + boots ok great, you might be annoying for a while but that comes to an end pretty quick and I would hardly be completely zoned.
cloth armor: boomerang was magic damage last time i checked.
A maxed manamune is dishing out around +66 and is 1k cheaper than the BT. BT of course ends up +100 but those stacks go away when you're dead. Later on you can sell the manamune for an early 2nd BT if you like.
"why are you harassing enemy when u can just clear creeps then go do wraiths?
you are seriously just sitting there throwing boomerang at the enemy and not farming?
Bad. nothing else to say about that."
I thought I made it clear but I'll spell it out again. 1 boomerang clears creeps after a few riccochets. another boomerang hits the opponent. I don't see how complicated it is to do both at the same time. Also, why the hell am I touching wraiths? Junglers need their cs. THAT is bad.
Managing mana better and rushing BT is one way to go about it but you don't get to clear every wave instantly and in turn, dont get to safely minion harass the turret.
I'm not negative ELO nor are my games 2 1 2 laners. No need to flame me here I'm just trying to illustrate a different style of play. This isn't about straight numbers here, being able to constantly throw a boomerang from a relatively early level isn't something to overlook.
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I really really want Yiruru to respond but I'm pretty sure he won't waste his time.
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his main point is he relies on Q and
"sivir never gets in attack range of ashe."
"relying on the fact that I have more attack range than sivir"
This is neglected by that early tear....sivir's attack range BECOMES boomerang.
Also that sivir couldn't even soak any volleys and she prefires her SS all the time instead of waiting for the volley -.-.
If you can't react to a volley being thrown than other parts of your sivir are probably lacking.
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On February 21 2011 03:23 zomgzergrush wrote:
I'm not negative ELO nor are my games 2 1 2 laners. No need to flame me here I'm just trying to illustrate a different style of play. This isn't about straight numbers here, being able to constantly throw a boomerang from a relatively early level isn't something to overlook.
I don't know what your elo is since you are not sharing it, however, you should at least know who you are talking about.
Thread creator Yiruru is 2225 ELO and HeveanonEarth (aka Ezpzlmnsqz) is 1869. Both play at a very high level. The reason their opinions are so respected is because their advice is tried and true at the top levels of play.
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On February 21 2011 03:39 zomgzergrush wrote:
his main point is he relies on Q and
"sivir never gets in attack range of ashe."
"relying on the fact that I have more attack range than sivir"
This is neglected by that early tear....sivir's attack range BECOMES boomerang.
Also that sivir couldn't even soak any volleys and she prefires her SS all the time instead of waiting for the volley -.-.
If you can't react to a volley being thrown than other parts of your sivir are probably lacking.
Having an attack at 9 sec cooldown is way too good, yeaah. I just hope that once the server is back up you will show your Sivir to EzPz's Ashe and convince everyone that Sivir > Ashe 
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On February 21 2011 03:45 Kaniol wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 03:39 zomgzergrush wrote:
his main point is he relies on Q and
"sivir never gets in attack range of ashe."
"relying on the fact that I have more attack range than sivir"
This is neglected by that early tear....sivir's attack range BECOMES boomerang.
Also that sivir couldn't even soak any volleys and she prefires her SS all the time instead of waiting for the volley -.-.
If you can't react to a volley being thrown than other parts of your sivir are probably lacking. Having an attack at 9 sec cooldown is way too good, yeaah. I just hope that once the server is back up you will show your Sivir to EzPz's Ashe and convince everyone that Sivir > Ashe
Yeah everything else in this video pointing to weaknesses of sivir vs ashe are neglected by my build.
later in the video he says "I can't really kite him if he's bouncing stuff off the creeps to hit me"
Again, this begins very early with this build, not level 8-9 as in the video.
CS sivir will never be below ashe if you can safely farm in one swoop each time. Also the more I watch it the more I see that sivir is terribad with SS. Who the hell is gonna shoot a volley/arrow when you prefire your SS? Also, if your SS is down and ashe has an arrow ready, dont friggen extend that far.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 21 2011 03:39 zomgzergrush wrote:
This is neglected by that early tear....sivir's attack range BECOMES boomerang.
Boots-first Ashe should be able to dodge BB at 600+ range. This is not in any way related to Sivir's build--if Ashe starts boots, she should be able to dodge Boomerangs.
On February 21 2011 03:59 zomgzergrush wrote:
later in the video he says "I can't really kite him if he's bouncing stuff off the creeps to hit me"
Again, this begins very early with this build, not level 8-9 as in the video.
How does it start any earlier? Sivir can only reliably Ricochet onto Ashe if you have ranks in Ricochet, which requires ditching ranks in Boomerang Blade, which means Ashe can just shit all over you because BB will be doing crap damage. It has nothing to do with mana availability. Rank 1 Ricochet is not going to be hitting Ashe meaningfully often, even if you have it on 100% of the time.
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he can still do the same thing from levels 8-9 to your sivir, regardless of your opening
l0l
and once he has that initial farm / level advantage you're fucked, manamune or not
not to mention that bb is fairly dodge-able
fairly small aoe decent projectile speed
you can steal THEIR wraiths if you wanna fuck up their jungle and have summoners up
you can steal YOUR jungler's wraiths if they're going for a gank / b and it will be up when they go for another clear
etc. etc.
sivir does fine with double mp5, which is what most players run on her
it allows her to be independent of mana regen items and thus they can focus their gold on better sources of damage like BT
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On February 21 2011 04:09 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 03:39 zomgzergrush wrote:
This is neglected by that early tear....sivir's attack range BECOMES boomerang.
Boots-first Ashe should be able to dodge BB at 600+ range. This is not in any way related to Sivir's build--if Ashe starts boots, she should be able to dodge Boomerangs. Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 03:59 zomgzergrush wrote:
later in the video he says "I can't really kite him if he's bouncing stuff off the creeps to hit me"
Again, this begins very early with this build, not level 8-9 as in the video. How does it start any earlier? Sivir can only reliably Ricochet onto Ashe if you have ranks in Ricochet, which requires ditching ranks in Boomerang Blade, which means Ashe can just shit all over you because BB will be doing crap damage. It has nothing to do with mana availability. Rank 1 Ricochet is not going to be hitting Ashe meaningfully often, even if you have it on 100% of the time.
The first point was moreso talking about straight range. If ashe starts boots, she can dodge boomerangs alright for doran sivir. Take that number of BB times X and then see how many of those you consistently dodge when sivir doesn't have to save her mana. You probably won't be zoning sivir out that hard if there is a constant BB threat, you have to stay further back.
Mostly I was making that point based on what happened in the video. The point where this ashe was having issues with riccochet was wayyyyyyyyyy later than I make it. I like to add a 2nd rank to riccochet earlier after 2 boomerang and then continue finishing boomerang first after that. With no mana management need, the less creeps there are going to be from an earlier point. The less creeps there are, the more likely you get riccochets off on ashe.
Just try it and see how it feels instead of theorycrafting
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I'm not sure how you spell shield every volley when volley is on a much shorter cooldown...
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United States47024 Posts
On February 21 2011 04:20 zomgzergrush wrote:
The first point was moreso talking about straight range. If ashe starts boots, she can dodge boomerangs alright for doran sivir. Take that number of BB times X and then see how many of those you consistently dodge when sivir doesn't have to save her mana. You probably won't be zoning sivir out that hard if there is a constant BB threat, you have to stay further back.
Starting Meki turns into 1 extra BB a minute. That's hardly "doesn't have to save her mana". By the time you finish Tear, Ashe will have had plenty of time to screw your laning.
On February 21 2011 04:20 Jaksiel wrote:
I'm not sure how you spell shield every volley when volley is on a much shorter cooldown...
Not to mention that past level 6, every Volley is potentially baiting Spell Shield so that it's down for your Arrow.
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On February 21 2011 04:21 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 04:20 zomgzergrush wrote:
The first point was moreso talking about straight range. If ashe starts boots, she can dodge boomerangs alright for doran sivir. Take that number of BB times X and then see how many of those you consistently dodge when sivir doesn't have to save her mana. You probably won't be zoning sivir out that hard if there is a constant BB threat, you have to stay further back. Starting Meki turns into 1 extra BB a minute. That's hardly "doesn't have to save her mana". By the time you finish Tear, Ashe will have had plenty of time to screw your laning. Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 04:20 Jaksiel wrote:
I'm not sure how you spell shield every volley when volley is on a much shorter cooldown... Not to mention that past level 6, every Volley is potentially baiting Spell Shield so that it's down for your Arrow.
Yes starting meki turns into 1 extra BB a minute, not counting what your SS soaked. By tear you should be able to start spamming quite a bit more but the part where you get to spam BB nonstop is when your manamune is finished. Once manamune is finished, gl dodging every single boomerang as it comes off CD.
You spell shield the volleys that you need to and if your spell shield is down, don't put yourself in danger. Past 6, yes, ashes have figured out that they can't get volleys to land on me and will bait my SS with volley so they can get an arrow off on me. Solution: don't extend when ashe is 6 and go for the quick clearing of each wave and backing off to safety. You also no longer need SS for mana anymore and don't need to purposely soak volleys. Stay behind minions and just wait for the arrow or SS volleys only when safely close to your tower.
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I approve of TreeEski's approach on Ashe. Someone tell him to go CDR Ashe to maximize the kiting/Volley spam. (although I kinda felt he unnecessarily pushed the lane way too often, but that's kinda common on high level streams, should I understand that? And no, he did not push to go back, he pushed and then decided to go back)
The thing with Meki Sivir against Boots/Dshield Ashe is: You are not going to do shit at level 1-3. Boots wins with dodging/kiting, shield simply wins because of the higher HP and regen. Thereby you don't even get enough farm to get that tear very early, and by going back early you further increase your disadvantage.
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If you are hugging your tower and not extending beyond it for fear of a gank/arrow then you are losing farm. Not to mention for probably the 50th time in this thread, if you getting massive farm, you really are at a disadvantage.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 21 2011 04:25 zomgzergrush wrote:
You spell shield the volleys that you need to and if your spell shield is down, don't put yourself in danger. Past 6, yes, ashes have figured out that they can't get volleys to land on me and will bait my SS with volley so they can get an arrow off on me. Solution: don't extend when ashe is 6 and go for the quick clearing of each wave and backing off to safety. You also no longer need SS for mana anymore and don't need to purposely soak volleys. Stay behind minions and just wait for the arrow or SS volleys only when safely close to your tower.
Wait, so you quick-clear the wave...and somehow subsequent creep waves meet in the middle/your side of the river anyway?
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On February 21 2011 04:26 spinesheath wrote:I approve of TreeEski's approach on Ashe. Someone tell him to go CDR Ashe to maximize the kiting/Volley spam. (although I kinda felt he unnecessarily pushed the lane way too often, but that's kinda common on high level streams, should I understand that? And no, he did not push to go back, he pushed and then decided to go back) The thing with Meki Sivir against Boots/Dshield Ashe is: You are not going to do shit at level 1-3. Boots wins with dodging/kiting, shield simply wins because of the higher HP and regen. Thereby you don't even get enough farm to get that tear very early, and by going back early you further increase your disadvantage.
The disadvantage decisively swings when that manamune is done. Having doran as sivir first wouldn't help sivir significantly vs boots ashe anyway so why not just start on the manamune early? Now that I think about it, starting longsword would probably pepper your tastes better but I just like to get my tear + boots asap.
On February 21 2011 04:29 BloodNinja wrote:
If you are hugging your tower and not extending beyond it for fear of a gank/arrow then you are losing farm.
Is anyone fully reading the posts? You aren't sitting on the tower without moving to get farm. You clear it instantly in a few riccochets and a BB swoop and THEN back off. The pressure of constant boomerang pushes ashe AWAY from constantly being able to zone you safely.
On February 21 2011 04:32 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 04:25 zomgzergrush wrote:
You spell shield the volleys that you need to and if your spell shield is down, don't put yourself in danger. Past 6, yes, ashes have figured out that they can't get volleys to land on me and will bait my SS with volley so they can get an arrow off on me. Solution: don't extend when ashe is 6 and go for the quick clearing of each wave and backing off to safety. You also no longer need SS for mana anymore and don't need to purposely soak volleys. Stay behind minions and just wait for the arrow or SS volleys only when safely close to your tower. Wait, so you quick-clear the wave...and somehow subsequent creep waves meet in the middle/your side of the river?
I'm really not making this up. You quick clear the wave and the wave will always end up meeting in the middle. Changing this to being on ashes side so she gets an advantage means ashe needs to tank minion damage if she really wants it to be there.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 21 2011 04:33 zomgzergrush wrote:
I'm really not making this up. You quick clear the wave and the wave will always end up meeting in the middle. Changing this to being on ashes side so she gets an advantage means ashe needs to tank minion damage if she really wants it to be there.
By the time you're the level where you can clear the wave that fast, Ashe is at the level where she can kill the melee minions and tank 3 caster minions for the time necessary for the next wave to get there.
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On February 21 2011 04:37 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2011 04:33 zomgzergrush wrote:
I'm really not making this up. You quick clear the wave and the wave will always end up meeting in the middle. Changing this to being on ashes side so she gets an advantage means ashe needs to tank minion damage if she really wants it to be there. By the time you're the level where you can clear the wave that fast, Ashe is at the level where she can kill the melee minions and tank 3 caster minions for the time necessary for the next wave to get there.
Repeatedly? And remember with manamune this point REALLY DOES come earlier. Also with manamune, while shes tanking that creep damage there's another BB coming up her way.
I guess that's the biggest thing. There's ALWAYS a BB coming at her and this fact alone changes a lot. In TreeEskimo's vods the point he mentioned repeatedly is ashe's range advantage vs sivir. This advantage is gone when sivir has no boomerang limit.
Servers need to be up so that someone can at least give it a shot >.<
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Let's just stop theorycrafting and resume it after the zomgzergrush vs EzPz duel
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I'm like 90% confident this isn't another "antpile's pwnage mass queen build" argument I'm making.
On February 21 2011 04:42 Kaniol wrote:
Let's just stop theorycrafting and resume it after the zomgzergrush vs EzPz duel
I'd really like that actually because I really have never lost a lane vs an ashe with this. When I went for doran/BT I had issues vs ashe for the very reasons illustrated by TreeEskimo (minus the fail SS's that guy had).
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Here's how you play ashe vs sivir. Ashe, abuse the timing when sivir can't clear waves.
Sivir, when you get to a level when you can clear waves fast, do it so ashe is pushed back and to force a draw in creep farming, and if she fights, she needs to fight vs creeps.
OMG Numbers why you so gud. You so gud you blow my mind.
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Let's talk some numbers (lol not you, 0123456789 :p)
Tear costs 980 gold
Manamune costs 2110 gold
Assuming perfect solo lane farm and including the 475 base gold, by the time you can buy a Tear you are level 4. By the time you can afford a Manamune you are level 7.
However you cannot farm perfectly against Ashe when you cannot heal any of her harrass. So realistically speaking you get Tear by level 5-6, Manamune by level 8-9. So Ashe has 4-5 levels where she can push you around easily, and another 4 levels where all she has to do is dodge BBs because you still can't fight her. You will probably end up 50+ cs behind by the time you get Manamune.
Oh and I have no trouble instantly farming every wave without a Tear once I hit lvl 7 (or was it 5?). Or at least I can do it long enough.
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On February 21 2011 04:55 spinesheath wrote:
Oh and I have no trouble instantly farming every wave without a Tear once I hit lvl 7 (or was it 5?). Or at least I can do it long enough.
This is the part that really puzzles me about people who run manamune, I don't run any mana regen on sivir at all and Ive never had any trouble with mana past level seven.
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I generally get tear and boots around level 5-6. I never had ashe be up 50+ cs while still being able to zone me....
Sure you won't have issues with mana without manamune by managing mana. Managing mana means you're throwing less BB, that's the main point everyone keeps missing.
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None of the "advantages" you have stated v Ashe have anything to do with Manamune or Tear. It's just you playing bad players and mismanaging your mana.
That's all there is too it; Ashe absolutely crushes Sivir in lane until she can instantly clear creep waves.
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All your talk of "Once I finish manamune the advantage swings to my favour" is ridiculous. Ashe can zone Sivir from level 1 and a good Ashe should. There is no reason for them to let you even get experience.
Furthermore, you mentioned earlier that Manamune gives you so much mana "you can't even run out of you tried", It isn't a good thing to have more mana regen than you need, let alone can use - it's wasting money. As for mana problems on sivir, I run dual mp5/lvl and I have 0 problems after level 5/6. Don't spam BB early, it's as simple as that.
You mention "Managing mana means throwing less BB" which you seem to imply is a bad thing, it's not. 1 BB per wave is completely sufficient, you're not going to be ganking or in team fights that early so you don't need more than 1 per wave. And once you do feel the need to spam BB you'll be of a high enough level that MP5/lvl's will take care of it.
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ashe the least of your worries if you open meki on sivir. Literally every ranged dps will kill you, every mage will burst you xin irelia will stomp the fuck out of you. hell my solomid jax would truck ur shit. theres 0 chance ur getting any farm vs competent people
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United States37500 Posts
Love theorycrafters talking shit out with EzPz. The logic is hilar. hurr
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lol fuck this shit
zomgzergrush add me in game
and we can do some 1 v 1's and ill show u why ashe dominates sivir
edit:oh yea btw if u need anything more than 9 yellow mana regen/lvl on sivir to manage mana ur doing it wrong
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Was already posted last page broski.
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too much theorycraft
too few leaguecraft
go go custom game, test it out
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There's nothing to test out, he's just plain wrong. Even if the strategy he wants to execute was a good one manamune isn't required to achieve it.
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Can someone give me early laning tips on sivir? I know the big thing is your supposed to be able to cs like a boss, but I never actually got how you do it. Do you depend on bb, or ricochet, or what? Someone walk me through it.
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On March 22 2011 12:09 Two_DoWn wrote:
Can someone give me early laning tips on sivir? I know the big thing is your supposed to be able to cs like a boss, but I never actually got how you do it. Do you depend on bb, or ricochet, or what? Someone walk me through it.
both, BB as the creep wave is coming down (while its still in a straight line) then just auto until everything is dead when you can. Otherwise just last hit like anyone else
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Against a lot of stronger laners (or really, just ranged), you are going to need to use BB early on to get last hits. They punish you way too much when you close in for last hits. That will continue for a while till you can put up with their abuses. By 7 is when her farming kicks into auto mode, since you can just BB a wave and push it up w/ ricochet up indefinitely.
Basically you last hit normally unless they are punishing you too much for it, then you use BB defensively to try to farm. There is also the option of landing 2 BB hits on them so you can trade a bit more evenly, but that's imo a lot harder.
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So its been around 4 months since anyone posted in here.
Does anyone have an updated build that works fairly well with her?
I was laning against one as Cait and her BB did HUGE damage to me. She also stacked around 4 Doran Blades. But that BB was brutal to anyone who touched it.
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On June 13 2011 02:22 Morphx2 wrote:
So its been around 4 months since anyone posted in here.
Does anyone have an updated build that works fairly well with her?
I was laning against one as Cait and her BB did HUGE damage to me. She also stacked around 4 Doran Blades. But that BB was brutal to anyone who touched it.
You mean Caits Q? Don't get hit by it or get yourself a soraka bro. =P
afaik the way to go with sivir is still stacking BTs, no reason to change that. Also I don't know why you would pick her over any other AD carry.
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You should be able to spell shield cait's Q pretty easily, but you probably get owned anyway until lv7-8ish. Sivir's a nice carry but you have to do well early.
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#1: He's talking about Sivir's BB doing a ton of damage. And yes, if you get both bounces off it does do a ton of damage. But it's easy to dodge.
#2: You pick sivir because of her insane pushing power. No other AD carry has the pushing power sivir has.
#3: Stacking BT's still works. 2 should be the max though. Losing 80 AD on death is pretty brutal so you kind of don't want to go above that.
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oh sorry, i meant what is a good sivir build. She whooped my Cait and I wanted to mess around with Sivir
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On June 13 2011 08:59 Morphx2 wrote:oh sorry, i meant what is a good sivir build. She whooped my Cait and I wanted to mess around with Sivir
2BTs, LW, zerks is pretty core.
everything else is up to you. warmogs is decent survivability by itself, bveil is OP as always, atmas+mogs is funny. the last two slots should be survivability and/or an IE.
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my personal favorite Sivir build is:
Dorans Blade
Dorans Blade
AS boots
vampric scepter
the AD snowball item (dont know name)
Starks
Blood Thirster
Phage
Black Cleaver
Frozen Mallet
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Imo siv should be built purely for bd and split pushing , shes a joke atm as a ad carry.
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Soo ... bumping this thread as I have some questions about Sivir. I'm pretty new to LoL, started playing after the IEM finals. I quickly got frustrated over mediocre games and weird team mates, was on the verge of uninstalling and bought Sivir from my IP for some last rounds ... only to fall in love with this hero.
I've played 30 or 40 matches with her since and I really, really like her style. However, Sivir doesn't seem to be too popular among some of my team mates and I frequently get critizied for picking her and for my build. However, I have a pretty decent record so far and feel like contributing to my teams' wins. Sivir may be a bit squishy but I feel like I can control her quite well by now, I don't die too often and usually survive being primaried in team fights thanks to shield + item slows + cleanse.
So I've got some questions.
1) Why so much flak for Sivir? The last post above me says Sivir's "a joke" ... why that? My experice so far has been very good, but then again I'm only level 10 right now. Does a lot change on higher levels?
2) What's a good item build for her? I've had a lot of success so far with a build revolving around attack speed / damage and the Hextech Gunblade / Bloodthirster. Usually starting with Doran's Blade, the Berserker Boots and then getting on of those items; usually the Gunblade (rather, the Bilgewater sword first) for the slow.
3) I realize Sivir's strength lies in pushing lanes and I can do that pretty well, but I also find her highly versatile in team fights due to ulti / finishing runners with boomerang, surviving thanks to the shield and wreaking general havoc with bouncing blades, insane attack speed and high damage. That's what she's there for or not?
4) What's the difference between "ap Sivir" and "ad Sivir"? One focussing on ability power, the other on attack damage, right? So why am I being criticized in games when I answer "ad", get a lot of +damage items, get a sh*tton of kills and even more assists but then get told my "build suxxx sivir noob"?
TL;DR: Having fun with Sivir, having success as well, but getting flak for using her / my builds. Looking for general advice and / or pointers to improve my play.
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AP Sivir was an old gimmicky build from way back when. Her Q, (boomerang blade) used to scale with only AP, not AD. So AP Sivir was a fun trolly build with which your basic attacks were fairly negligible, but your boomerang hit like a truck.
After the changes, boomerang scales with both, but the AD ratio is better, so AP is pretty worthless on her. You're better off simply stacking AD so that all your attacks do more damage, not merely your Q.
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General Sivir build still is:
Berserker Greaves, Bloodthirster, win game.
Often you want to build some defense in case you actually didn't win. In that case Warmogs -> Atma's (or Giant's Belt -> Atma's -> Warmogs) is solid most of the time. After that it usually is time to get a Last Whisper. I'd probably get a Phantom Dancer afterwards. If you STILL didn't win, Infinity Edge.
Maxed out a good allround Sivir build is: Mercury Treads, Bloodthirster, Warmog's, Atma's, Last Whisper, Inifinity Edge (Sell Berserker Greaves for Mercury Treads if the game goes that late).
In teamfights, Sivir just mindlessly attacks whatever target is in range (bonus points if you switch to a squishy target that happens to get near you). Don't waste precious autoattack time by chasing people.
The difference between AP Sivir and AD Sivir is that the former is a pure troll build, while the latter is legit and very viable as long as you don't pick Sivir in games where she gets fully denied during the laning phase (Cait + Janna for example should crush most Sivir + X lanes pretty badly). Not that this really matters in low lvl games though.
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Didnt want to necro this thread but appreciate the updated info, I rarely run sivir except for fun but I was curious on builds these days.
I have noticed people give me flack for when I do run her, yet I dont see how she is aweful either. Just a hated champ?
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On September 02 2011 14:05 Synwave wrote:
Didnt want to necro this thread but appreciate the updated info, I rarely run sivir except for fun but I was curious on builds these days.
I have noticed people give me flack for when I do run her, yet I dont see how she is aweful either. Just a hated champ?
She's bad because her autoattack range is just terrible. In teamfights, she will be very very close to the enemy tanks and bruisers and she really doesn't have much in the form of escape.
Back in the day, sivir was considered top tier because of her insane ability to farm, and her bouncing shots which is just ridiculous when farmed. The difference was that Sivirs would tend to take a solo lane and her Q did more damage (less reduction per target) so it was completely possible for a good Sivir to be able to farm well no matter what matchup.
Now, with much stronger solo laners like Brand and Ori, she can't solo lane all that well. In the duo bot lane, many support+ad combos will wreck her due to her shitty autoattack range. Add on the Q nerf, which made it much much harder to ezmode farm with, she's just not that good anymore because her laning simply is subpar and she can't get the farm she needs to do well.
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Against good players her early game is complete shit because she can easily be zoned if you outrange her/dodge her mana inefficient Q. If you can get past early game with decent farm you can farm like hell forcing your opponent to spend time killing creeps instead of you.
She has great damage output but because of her short range your positioning has to be perfect in team fights otherwise 1 mistake can cost you your life.
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Good Sivir is still a fine solo. She shits on most AP heroes because they can't combo her (though I wouldn't recommend sending her solo top).
Also, don't get Atmog's on Sivir. She's not a tanky dps, you shouldn't be putting yourself in a situation where you're getting hit so much that you need a Warmog's worth of HP.
EDIT: One more thing: if your opponent has so much longer range than you that you're having trouble competing in lane, max W instead of Q and just force them to take little bits of damage every time they go for CS.
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On September 02 2011 16:13 arnath wrote:
EDIT: One more thing: if your opponent has so much longer range than you that you're having trouble competing in lane, max W instead of Q and just force them to take little bits of damage every time they go for CS.
Problem with that is you'll be pushing the lane, just for the sake of doing a little bit of damage to an enemy that has a superior range to you, which sort of leaves you in a tough spot.
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Anyone who's curious I have moderate-high success rate at my elo with Sivir. I'm not very good, but Sivir is one of my best champions, because no one expects a good Sivir player.
Usually go 21/9/0 masteries, taking nimbleness in Defensive.
Armor pen reds
Flat armor yellows (you can use dodge here, but I prefer armor, since it defends against AD spells too)
MR blues, either scaling or Flat, that comes down to preference
AD quints, because Armor pen doesn't help your Q  (( (it totally should be physical damage)
Skills R>Q>W>E
Summoner spells: Flash is a must imo, but the other one is up to personal preference. I like Teleport, but you can use ghost, ignite, or exhaust too. Teleport is amazing for porting into minion waves and dropping a tower after a team fight, or just plain dropping towers and teleing out while being unblockable thanks to E.
Items:
Doran's blade x1
Brown boots
Doran's x2 + wriggles
Merc Treads
Black Cleaver
Stark's
Youmou's
Banshee's Veil
After that it's down to preference, but most games don't last that long.
Focus on last hitting in lane, don't waste your mana on harass unless you know you can hit them at least once with Q. I may take E at level 2 depending on who I'm laning against (if it's an AP carry with an easily shieldable spell? Definitely).
Use bushes to your advantage to pop out and auto attack, and never stand still unless you're in mid attack. After you land a Q double hit, your enemies will not want to trade with you any more (unless they have a death wish) so you can use the threat of it to zone them, maybe even intentionally throwing bad ones to make them over zealous.
People say Q is mana inefficient (probably true, but E is amazing for mana), and that Sivir needs tons of mana/regen to work, but I don't see it, you have spell shield for a reason, you can use it to make your opponents waste mana and win out battles of attrition in lane even when throwing out your Q almost every cooldown. Sort of like how TF can blue card all his mana back, Sivir can steal it away from enemies and this is a great asset in lane.
Don't leave your W on unless you want to push. The only time I have it on is when I'm split pushing, team fighting, farming post laning,or attacking a tower with minions nearby. I dislike using it to harass in lane because it's a huge mana hog.
When your team is defending a 5 man push, unless you're standing in the midst of it, don't fight with them, push another lane. I take wriggle's so I can ward up lanes I'm pushing and you should always have things warded so you don't miss the Xin or Irelia that slipped away from the rest of the team. Also, if you have to fight, remember that your ultimate is AoE and gives everyone on your team a very nice MS boost at the very least (although any other AD carries will be quite happy with the AS).
If your team is intelligent, they will stall until the other team gives up and tries to gank you, or until they send one back and force a 4v4. You need to be aware when you can and can't push, because if you can then you should be, and if you can't then you should be farming somewhere else.
I don't recommend Sivir to a player who complains about people not calling MIAs because you have to be aware of that on your own. I also don't recommend Sivir to a player who isn't on top of their positioning in fights, because being out of position on Sivir means death. You have to walk a fine line between being in range and being in melee range, and it's not necessarily a bad thing to attack the closest target in most situations (Yes, focus the tank if you have to), since Ricochet is not based on the initial damage, it's based on the % of your actual damage. I also don't recommend Sivir if you can't reliably hit with her Q (it's slow, but huge) or block easily blockable spells with E (you should be able to block all spells with cast times, animations, or particles. You can press E when the spell is in the air, or even as it hits you to block it)
She's really bad against champs who can easily catch her, and against champs with hard to predict or spammy spells (Vlad, Ryze, Orianna, etc.). She's amazing against champions with easy to block spells like Annie and other ranged carries (especially Caitlyn, tasty mana from traps).
Here's hoping for Sivir buffs soon though, so I don't get laughed at and queue dodged for picking her in ranked.
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I don't see a single Bloodthirster...... I am disappoint.
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You can go bloodthirster instead of Youmou's, wriggle's, or Black Cleaver, but I don't like them. Too reliant on not dying, which if you're split pushing tends to happen often unfortunately. Also, AS is >>> than AD at killing structures, and Lifesteal doesn't even help you there 
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On September 15 2011 16:57 cagedknight wrote:You can go bloodthirster instead of Youmou's, wriggle's, or Black Cleaver, but I don't like them. Too reliant on not dying, which if you're split pushing tends to happen often unfortunately. Also, AS is >>> than AD at killing structures, and Lifesteal doesn't even help you there
In fact AS and AD have exactly the same effects for killing towers. If you have too much of one of them, the other is better and vice versa. They both are affected by tower armor equally.
Wriggle's, Ghostblade and Black Cleaver all add effects that don't work on towers.
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If you split push a lot you're generally going to kill quite a few waves of creeps and fully or nearly fully stack your BT anyway. And BT's are still really strong for teamfights which you still will want to do sometimes. She already has an AS boost from her ult so generally AD benefits her more.
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On September 15 2011 17:15 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 16:57 cagedknight wrote:You can go bloodthirster instead of Youmou's, wriggle's, or Black Cleaver, but I don't like them. Too reliant on not dying, which if you're split pushing tends to happen often unfortunately. Also, AS is >>> than AD at killing structures, and Lifesteal doesn't even help you there In fact AS and AD have exactly the same effects for killing towers. If you have too much of one of them, the other is better and vice versa. They both are affected by tower armor equally. Wriggle's, Ghostblade and Black Cleaver all add effects that don't work on towers.
Exactly why I dislike straight bloodthirsters, AS is better for Sivir's hit and run approach so you don't have to stand still to attack. This build adds AD and AS, and you won't pass 2.5 AS even with your ult up
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But surely having more upfront damage would make it so you don't have to stand still and attack. The thing about AS is that you're doing less damage per hit, but more frequent hits, so to do more overall damage you need to stand still to attack.
Whereas for a 'hit and run' style, you want each of your less frequent hits to be doing more damage.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 15 2011 17:43 cagedknight wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 17:15 spinesheath wrote:On September 15 2011 16:57 cagedknight wrote:You can go bloodthirster instead of Youmou's, wriggle's, or Black Cleaver, but I don't like them. Too reliant on not dying, which if you're split pushing tends to happen often unfortunately. Also, AS is >>> than AD at killing structures, and Lifesteal doesn't even help you there In fact AS and AD have exactly the same effects for killing towers. If you have too much of one of them, the other is better and vice versa. They both are affected by tower armor equally. Wriggle's, Ghostblade and Black Cleaver all add effects that don't work on towers. Exactly why I dislike straight bloodthirsters, AS is better for Sivir's hit and run approach so you don't have to stand still to attack. This build adds AD and AS, and you won't pass 2.5 AS even with your ult up
Except the fact that you have a natural 90% AS Steroid means that AD is 100% the best stat for you to prioritize. You need a LOT of AD before you should start considering buying any ASpd other than Berserker's Greaves--seeing as your ult is like 2.5k gold worth of pure attack speed.
The other reason for Bloodthirster is that lifesteal applies on your W bounces, so you get extra mileage out of it compared to other onhit-type effects.
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Hit and run meaning stutter step. Much less vulnerable when your attack animation is shorter (Marines and Marauders when stimmed for an example of this). AD is good for boomerang blade hit and run, but unless you have a poke based team you're probably better off going for AS/Armor pen
Bloodthirsters aren't necessarily bad items, but I just prefer not to get them. Too much farm that you have to keep in order to use its full effectiveness, especially when you're likely to die when split pushing.
Armor penetration is Sivir's best actual damage stat for fighting people, and that's why my build has a ton of it. When you have your banshee's veil you can actually destroy people in team fights because you are nearly untouchable from spells and you can stutter step to take less damage from auto attacks.
I felt like sharing my build on her because looking at other things, people suggest weird items that really don't make any sense to me (like suggesting Sword of the Occult as a core item)
Except the fact that you have a natural 90% AS Steroid means that AD is 100% the best stat for you to prioritize. You need a LOT of AD before you should start considering buying any ASpd other than Berserker's Greaves--seeing as your ult is like 2.5k gold worth of pure attack speed.
The other reason for Bloodthirster is that lifesteal applies on your W bounces, so you get extra mileage out of it compared to other onhit-type effects.
First, yes you have a 90% AS steroid, but you still won't reach 2.5 AS with it on with my build. AS is really good for Sivir until you hit the cap, AD is not her best damage stat, armor penetration is, and I don't even build berzerker's greaves because I find that merc tread's are better in nearly every situation.
Second, no on hit effects apply to W bounces to my knowledge, including life steal. In any case with Wriggle's and Stark's you should be set in that department.
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I thought tiamat stacking was good on her due to the bounces?
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wtf, i dont think the bounces have ever procced on hits. i bet it works on spellvamp tho....
gunblade sivir op?
edit: regarding the item build. This looks an awful lot like my armor-reduction urgod cheese build. The problem is that once their bruisers get a certain amount of armor, you wont do shit to them and probably get bum-fucked since sivir doesnt have much in terms of escapes. bloodthirster + lw on the other hand will make sure that doesnt happen. The armor reduction cheese works best against ppl with low armor and due to sivir's range thats not terribly attractive
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United States47024 Posts
On September 16 2011 01:16 cagedknight wrote:
First, yes you have a 90% AS steroid, but you still won't reach 2.5 AS with it on with my build. AS is really good for Sivir until you hit the cap, AD is not her best damage stat, armor penetration is, and I don't even build berzerker's greaves because I find that merc tread's are better in nearly every situation.
1) AD outdoes AS on DPS/gold WAY before 2.5 AS. DPS scales multiplicatively between them, meaning you need to balance your spending between them for maximized DPS. You have a 90% AS steroid, so you need to be spending like 3k+ on AD before AS can even be considered as a better DPS/gold stat than AD.
2) Armor Penetration is good, but under-itemized. Black Cleaver is of diminshed usefulness because you don't proc it on your Ricochet targets, and Brutalizer/GB are cost-inefficient because you're paying for CDR and Crit, which are extremely ineffective on Sivir, and because the active isn't as useful on ranged champions. Last Whisper is the only Armor Pen item that's justifiable, and that doesn't become useful until after your first BF Sword item.
3) Zerks always on Sivir. Spell Shield and BVeil/QSS cover 2 CCs. If you get hit by significantly more than that, then you need to rethink your positioning or get better at using Spell Shield.
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i think mercs is justifiable vs a team with a shitload of slows. there are a decent # of slows that aren't affected by bveil/spellshield
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Yes but the majority of those slows also ignore cc reduction or can be reappplied constantly as to make tenacity worthless (singed goo, ashe frost arrows, red buff, gp etc)
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Mercs is fine on Sivir if you're building somewhat tanky after your first BT. Which is reasonable considering your low range. It means you can just stand there and lifesteal like mad.
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The build works for me more than bloodthirsters, give it a try or don't, either way's fine with me. I do like Last Whisper over Youmou's in some situations, but I don't like getting bloodthirsters. They require you to hold farm which you won't be able to do if you're split pushing.
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On September 16 2011 05:55 cagedknight wrote:
The build works for me more than bloodthirsters, give it a try or don't, either way's fine with me. I do like Last Whisper over Youmou's in some situations, but I don't like getting bloodthirsters. They require you to hold farm which you won't be able to do if you're bad at split pushing.
always farm never fight
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United States47024 Posts
On September 16 2011 05:55 cagedknight wrote:
The build works for me more than bloodthirsters, give it a try or don't, either way's fine with me. I do like Last Whisper over Youmou's in some situations, but I don't like getting bloodthirsters. They require you to hold farm which you won't be able to do if you're split pushing.
What?
Split pushing is one of the best ways to get Bloodthirster stacks. You're only going to lose stacks split-pushing if you're bad at it and get caught.
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On September 16 2011 07:01 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 05:55 cagedknight wrote:
The build works for me more than bloodthirsters, give it a try or don't, either way's fine with me. I do like Last Whisper over Youmou's in some situations, but I don't like getting bloodthirsters. They require you to hold farm which you won't be able to do if you're split pushing. What? Split pushing is one of the best ways to get Bloodthirster stacks. You're only going to lose stacks split-pushing if you're bad at it and get caught.
No matter how good you are at split pushing, you will get caught. I'm just going to say again, it really doesn't matter to me if you want to build bloodthirsters or not, I don't and it works for me, which is what I put in my original post.
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On September 16 2011 09:33 cagedknight wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 07:01 TheYango wrote:On September 16 2011 05:55 cagedknight wrote:
The build works for me more than bloodthirsters, give it a try or don't, either way's fine with me. I do like Last Whisper over Youmou's in some situations, but I don't like getting bloodthirsters. They require you to hold farm which you won't be able to do if you're split pushing. What? Split pushing is one of the best ways to get Bloodthirster stacks. You're only going to lose stacks split-pushing if you're bad at it and get caught. No matter how good you are at split pushing, you will get caught. I'm just going to say again, it really doesn't matter to me if you want to build bloodthirsters or not, I don't and it works for me, which is what I put in my original post.
Not true at all. R is a brilliant escape mechanism, if you've got TP or ghost as a second summoner spell you're still fine, and to some extent exhaust.... and lets not forget flash.
You're saying 'look just listen to me' but you're not actually listening to other people. You really shouldnt be happy with yourself if you get caught split pushing as sivir with R or summoners up.
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On September 16 2011 09:44 Dgiese wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 09:33 cagedknight wrote:On September 16 2011 07:01 TheYango wrote:On September 16 2011 05:55 cagedknight wrote:
The build works for me more than bloodthirsters, give it a try or don't, either way's fine with me. I do like Last Whisper over Youmou's in some situations, but I don't like getting bloodthirsters. They require you to hold farm which you won't be able to do if you're split pushing. What? Split pushing is one of the best ways to get Bloodthirster stacks. You're only going to lose stacks split-pushing if you're bad at it and get caught. No matter how good you are at split pushing, you will get caught. I'm just going to say again, it really doesn't matter to me if you want to build bloodthirsters or not, I don't and it works for me, which is what I put in my original post. Not true at all. R is a brilliant escape mechanism, if you've got TP or ghost as a second summoner spell you're still fine, and to some extent exhaust.... and lets not forget flash. You're saying 'look just listen to me' but you're not actually listening to other people. You really shouldnt be happy with yourself if you get caught split pushing as sivir with R or summoners up.
They won't be up if you use R to take down the turret or Teleport to get into a minion wave. I never said you had to listen to me either, It's just that I stated the reason why I do everything the way I do. If it's "wrong" at high elo, or if bloodthirsters are technically better, it doesn't matter to me because I found success with the build I put forward.
If you have a different build you want to share, please do, I'd love to give it a try
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Yeah, the build is called stack a couple bloodthirsters. If you used your TP to get to the tower then you still have flash and Spell shield, and maybe not the best choice to use R if you knew you were gonna need it to escape.
But whatevs, if you want to play suicide sivir then that's fine, but i'd recommend swapping revive in for flash. Imo there are better ways to play her though, which still kill towers just fine, but you actually survive after getting a tower (which isn't that hard with her kit). If 1 comes to stop you when you've got BT's going you should probably be able to take them, if they send 2 you should be able to escape with summoners or ultimate, if they send 3+ then you're likely to get killed, but while that's happening call for your team to do something important (Push two towers, baron, dragon etc).
I used to play sivir like you, then I got better with her and found out once I learnt to position myself better, and have better map awareness then BT became by far the best way to go.
Edit: it's not even anything to do with high elo either, at low elo it should be even easier to avoid dying (and keeping up those BT stacks). It's just what makes sense.
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On September 16 2011 10:29 Dgiese wrote:
Yeah, the build is called stack a couple bloodthirsters. If you used your TP to get to the tower then you still have flash and Spell shield, and maybe not the best choice to use R if you knew you were gonna need it to escape.
But whatevs, if you want to play suicide sivir then that's fine, but i'd recommend swapping revive in for flash. Imo there are better ways to play her though, which still kill towers just fine, but you actually survive after getting a tower (which isn't that hard with her kit). If 1 comes to stop you when you've got BT's going you should probably be able to take them, if they send 2 you should be able to escape with summoners or ultimate, if they send 3+ then you're likely to get killed, but while that's happening call for your team to do something important (Push two towers, baron, dragon etc).
I used to play sivir like you, then I got better with her and found out once I learnt to position myself better, and have better map awareness then BT became by far the best way to go.
Edit: it's not even anything to do with high elo either, at low elo it should be even easier to avoid dying (and keeping up those BT stacks). It's just what makes sense.
I find that even if you keep the stacks, they aren't worth it because it takes longer to buy them. I like getting cheaper items and being stronger early on, so that I don't have to wait until 50 minutes with 300+ CS in order to kill things. If it goes to late game I will usually have the gold available to switch after my build is full, but rushing and stacking bloodthirsters is not fun
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United States47024 Posts
On September 16 2011 10:35 cagedknight wrote:
I find that even if you keep the stacks, they aren't worth it because it takes longer to buy them. I like getting cheaper items and being stronger early on, so that I don't have to wait until 50 minutes with 300+ CS in order to kill things. If it goes to late game I will usually have the gold available to switch after my build is full, but rushing and stacking bloodthirsters is not fun
Welcome to playing AD carries.
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On September 16 2011 10:35 cagedknight wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 10:29 Dgiese wrote:
Yeah, the build is called stack a couple bloodthirsters. If you used your TP to get to the tower then you still have flash and Spell shield, and maybe not the best choice to use R if you knew you were gonna need it to escape.
But whatevs, if you want to play suicide sivir then that's fine, but i'd recommend swapping revive in for flash. Imo there are better ways to play her though, which still kill towers just fine, but you actually survive after getting a tower (which isn't that hard with her kit). If 1 comes to stop you when you've got BT's going you should probably be able to take them, if they send 2 you should be able to escape with summoners or ultimate, if they send 3+ then you're likely to get killed, but while that's happening call for your team to do something important (Push two towers, baron, dragon etc).
I used to play sivir like you, then I got better with her and found out once I learnt to position myself better, and have better map awareness then BT became by far the best way to go.
Edit: it's not even anything to do with high elo either, at low elo it should be even easier to avoid dying (and keeping up those BT stacks). It's just what makes sense. I find that even if you keep the stacks, they aren't worth it because it takes longer to buy them. I like getting cheaper items and being stronger early on, so that I don't have to wait until 50 minutes with 300+ CS in order to kill things. If it goes to late game I will usually have the gold available to switch after my build is full, but rushing and stacking bloodthirsters is not fun
But the thing about Sivir is that she gets gold so quickly because she is a farming beast. 300 cs by 50 mins is ridiculously low. I know it was just an estimate, but 200 by 20 and 300 by 300 are the kind of numbers you should be aiming for on Sivir.
Seriously, Sivir is not a character that you need to be a jew on, farming is what she was made for.
BT is only 3k. It's already cheaper than IE which most other ranged carries rely on. A black cleaver is omething like 2.8k, so its barely any extra to get a BT. The wriggles in your build doesn't seem to make a tonne of sense either... it's only delaying your first BF sword, the whole school of thought with wriggles on ranged AD is wriggles, OR DBlades, not both. Try cutting out one from your build, i suggest wrigglees (because she doesn't benefit from the pushing power as[ect of wriggles as much as other carries do).
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Has anyone else been playing Sivir since the remake? I'm 23-1 in ranked with her since the remake (from like 1370 back to 1640). Her kite and mobility are absolutely ridiculous and her team fights are in my opinion the strongest of any ranged AD. Having her and GP on your team especially makes team fights instawins as your team runs circles around their team with huge AD and AS steroids.
I've been playing her in a duo lane mainly with an offensive support, being especially aggressive in the first few levels as your Q does HUGE damage. I start D-blade, then go wriggles and zerkers, getting more d-blades if I need them. From there, I get a BT, then get situational items from there. If I feel confident in my kite and my survivability, I get two phantom dancers and finish with a defensive item or an infinity. Otherwise, I sometimes get a bloodrazor if I am scared of their ADs jumping on me or they have a huge health tank like Volibear or Chogath. Other common items are wits end, frozen mallet, and last whisper. I run pretty standard AD runes (flat AD quint, ArPen reds, armor yellows, MR/lvl blues) and 21/9/0 masteries.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Ykz2s.jpg)
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On December 05 2011 12:07 Crazazyasian1337 wrote:Has anyone else been playing Sivir since the remake? I'm 18-1 in ranked with her since the remake (from like 1370 back to 1600). Her kite and mobility are absolutely ridiculous and her team fights are in my opinion the strongest of any ranged AD. Having her and GP on your team especially makes team fights instawins as your team runs circles around their team with huge AD and AS steroids. I've been playing her in a duo lane mainly with an offensive support, being especially aggressive in the first few levels as your Q does HUGE damage. I start D-blade, then go wriggles and zerkers, getting more d-blades if I need them. From there, I get a BT, then get situational items from there. If I feel confident in my kite and my survivability, I get two phantom dancers and finish with a defensive item or an infinity. Otherwise, I sometimes get a bloodrazor if I am scared of their ADs jumping on me or they have a huge health tank like Volibear or Chogath. Other common items are wits end, frozen mallet, and last whisper. I run pretty standard AD runes (flat AD quint, ArPen reds, armor yellows, MR/lvl blues) and 21/9/0 masteries.
Have you tried stuff like sheen-> trinity (finish sheen into trinity after ur first couple items) or manamune? I've building her more like them ezreals and urgots. Ofc I'm terrible at this game so it may be entirely stupid, but I wanna know what others' opinion is on those items.
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On December 05 2011 14:25 anmolsinghmzn2009 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 12:07 Crazazyasian1337 wrote:Has anyone else been playing Sivir since the remake? I'm 18-1 in ranked with her since the remake (from like 1370 back to 1600). Her kite and mobility are absolutely ridiculous and her team fights are in my opinion the strongest of any ranged AD. Having her and GP on your team especially makes team fights instawins as your team runs circles around their team with huge AD and AS steroids. I've been playing her in a duo lane mainly with an offensive support, being especially aggressive in the first few levels as your Q does HUGE damage. I start D-blade, then go wriggles and zerkers, getting more d-blades if I need them. From there, I get a BT, then get situational items from there. If I feel confident in my kite and my survivability, I get two phantom dancers and finish with a defensive item or an infinity. Otherwise, I sometimes get a bloodrazor if I am scared of their ADs jumping on me or they have a huge health tank like Volibear or Chogath. Other common items are wits end, frozen mallet, and last whisper. I run pretty standard AD runes (flat AD quint, ArPen reds, armor yellows, MR/lvl blues) and 21/9/0 masteries. Have you tried stuff like sheen-> trinity (finish sheen into trinity after ur first couple items) or manamune? I've building her more like them ezreals and urgots. Ofc I'm terrible at this game so it may be entirely stupid, but I wanna know what others' opinion is on those items.
i'd recommend sheen/trinity, def not manamune tho. A) sivir isn't exactly starved for mana for the vast majority of the game, and B) spellshield gives a fuckton of mana back to you. Tear just seems like a massive money dump for 0 gain. Trinity, on the other hand, is fucking amazing. I've been trying some bruta+sheen builds and have to say i like it. Dunno how much of a requirement bruta is tho.
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Lol you went 18-1 in 1350~1600 elo range? Dude I'm so jelly, the games I had with her when I was carrying like 8-1 k/d/a, I ended up losing. Maybe I'm still bad with her lol
But regardless she's my favorite ad ranged now. I just need to find a good build, so far I'm doing BT->Trinity, but the game doesn't always get that far. T.T
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yeah the manamune is just me loving to spam all my spells WAAAY too much. what about boots? Zerkers or CDR?
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I don't really think Sivir needs wriggles, her ability to farm is probably the best of all the AD carries, she can QW a wave at the tower to instantly clear it if need be. She's also difficult to harass and very hard to gank so she doesn't need the armor as much as some. Bloodthirster is still probably the best item on her especially since they increased the ratio on Q (assuming they haven't hotfixed it down).
In the few games I've played with her this patch I've gone R > Q > W > E, getting a point of E at 2, starting dorans and progressing into zerkers and BT, picking up IE, LW, and TF depending on the game. Last Whisper is a particularly strong item on her because she's going to be hitting tanks even if she doesn't want to.
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Played my first game with trinity sivir. I opted not to get brutalizer because I did not want to delay the burst trinity gave me, especially after getting wriggles first. It's definitely a different feel as your Q + W + auto burst is actually pretty ridic,
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/cFKHi.jpg)
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Ok, so I posted this before the remake, but I think it still holds true. Sivir doesn't benefit very much from the wriggles; she already pushes fast enough, so that part is wasted. The extra survivability is moot as well, yes armor and life steal is nice, but every other build provides survivability (doran's blades / phage for triforce (never tried this build though) / lifesteal from BT).
At 1600 for wriggles, you could instead get a BF sword (1650), or Beserker greaves + 1/2 doran's or vamp (depending on if you started boots first), others serkers + doran + vamp + wards.
Personally the serkers + vamp + doran + wards sounds the most appealing, I still get life steal, I move even faster and attack even quicker (which helps me make the most of my passive), and I can ward while I push their shit in.
Because of the proc nerf on wriggles lessening it's dragon / baron control, the fact that Sivir doesn't need the proc in lane, the survivability it provides being comparable to other builds, I think wriggles is an inferior item choice.
What does interest me are the Triforce builds... that's not something I've tried on new sivir. I'm skeptical, but I'm willing to give it a go. I mean lots of it seems to make sense, it just depends on whether it's worth the cost compared to other options.
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I dont really notice any burst damage when going for trinity first.
I notice a huge dmg increase after phage (start blade>zerkers>phage) but not after trinity. It makes me feel like I need to go bf sword after phage.
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On December 05 2011 16:21 Crazazyasian1337 wrote:Played my first game with trinity sivir. I opted not to get brutalizer because I did not want to delay the burst trinity gave me, especially after getting wriggles first. It's definitely a different feel as your Q + W + auto burst is actually pretty ridic,
When I looked at this picture, all I saw was a junglewick fail lol.
I do want to try Trinity on her. What pieces are people building first?
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Phage first makes the most sense. The slow synergizes perfectly with your passive and the modest survivibility increase is nice too.
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On December 08 2011 07:45 STS17 wrote:
Phage first makes the most sense. The slow synergizes perfectly with your passive and the modest survivibility increase is nice too.
really? i'd expect sheen to do really well tho... Q+auto+W+auto does ridic damage even without sheen proc. grabbing sheen basically adds an additional auto into your combo
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On December 08 2011 07:59 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 07:45 STS17 wrote:
Phage first makes the most sense. The slow synergizes perfectly with your passive and the modest survivibility increase is nice too. really? i'd expect sheen to do really well tho... Q+auto+W+auto does ridic damage even without sheen proc. grabbing sheen basically adds an additional auto into your combo
Sheen is based on base damage though. If you get it first your base damage isn't very high. Phage -> Sheen is probably more damage and survivability. Combined with the slow could net you a kill.
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I'd get sheen first though cus you get mana starved at the early phase of the game I believe + harder harrass on your lane (I haven't played Sivir yet, sorry. This is based off other peoples feedbacks)
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On December 08 2011 08:28 RogerX wrote:
I'd get sheen first though cus you get mana starved at the early phase of the game I believe + harder harrass on your lane (I haven't played Sivir yet, sorry. This is based off other peoples feedbacks)
Why are you mana starved? You should just be last hitting until a kill is lined up.
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On December 08 2011 12:22 Bladeorade wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 08:28 RogerX wrote:
I'd get sheen first though cus you get mana starved at the early phase of the game I believe + harder harrass on your lane (I haven't played Sivir yet, sorry. This is based off other peoples feedbacks) Why are you mana starved? You should just be last hitting until a kill is lined up.
not to mention it is beyond easy to pop ur spellshield o.O
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On December 08 2011 12:22 Bladeorade wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 08:28 RogerX wrote:
I'd get sheen first though cus you get mana starved at the early phase of the game I believe + harder harrass on your lane (I haven't played Sivir yet, sorry. This is based off other peoples feedbacks) Why are you mana starved? You should just be last hitting until a kill is lined up.
I love harassing. I hate playing passive with Sivir because she's so boss at bursting. Protip: farm perfect while harassing.
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I always run OOM on sivir cuz its just so much fun spamming all her spells.
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I don't get how you can not be mana starved on Sivir (or pretty much every champ with a ranged spell that is good for harrassing). As long as you can harrass efficiently, you should do it. And considering Sivir's low range, you should actually HAVE to use spells a lot to not get denied. Otherwise your enemies will just pressure you whenever you try to lasthit.
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I can say that Trinity -> BLOODTHIRSTERS!!!1! works quite well.
Almost penta'd, the fifth kill got KSed by feedzreal...
New Sivir actually ganks pretty well, but costs more mana to clear a lane.
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On December 25 2011 02:34 Pigsquirrel wrote:
I can say that Trinity -> BLOODTHIRSTERS!!!1! works quite well.
Almost penta'd, the fifth kill got KSed by feedzreal...
New Sivir actually ganks pretty well, but costs more mana to clear a lane.
I play/build Sivir the way I play/build Corki. I grab sheen/triforce to maximize burst in lane, then BT to fuel my sick scaling.
She's so strong right now. Her lane burst is amazing too.
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On December 08 2011 18:28 spinesheath wrote:
I don't get how you can not be mana starved on Sivir (or pretty much every champ with a ranged spell that is good for harrassing). As long as you can harrass efficiently, you should do it. And considering Sivir's low range, you should actually HAVE to use spells a lot to not get denied. Otherwise your enemies will just pressure you whenever you try to lasthit.
press e helps a lot
i play sivir a lot on my smurf cuz she's one of the few champs i can carry with, but even on my main it's not that hard to predict when to use e... q is great but i use it very sparingly for farm, if a last hit is far away i'll use w to get it instead :3
lol i haven't tried triforce on her yet but it sounds like fun.. i usually go boots of speed start with zerks > BT > PD > BT > BT > PD/GA or something like that
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its tough to predict heimers rockets, thats the only dude who gets me everytime
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On December 25 2011 04:03 unichan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 18:28 spinesheath wrote:
I don't get how you can not be mana starved on Sivir (or pretty much every champ with a ranged spell that is good for harrassing). As long as you can harrass efficiently, you should do it. And considering Sivir's low range, you should actually HAVE to use spells a lot to not get denied. Otherwise your enemies will just pressure you whenever you try to lasthit. press e helps a lot i play sivir a lot on my smurf cuz she's one of the few champs i can carry with, but even on my main it's not that hard to predict when to use e... q is great but i use it very sparingly for farm, if a last hit is far away i'll use w to get it instead :3 lol i haven't tried triforce on her yet but it sounds like fun.. i usually go boots of speed start with zerks > BT > PD > BT > BT > PD/GA or something like that
I can't tell if you're kidding about your build or not...
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On December 25 2011 10:49 Perplex wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2011 04:03 unichan wrote:On December 08 2011 18:28 spinesheath wrote:
I don't get how you can not be mana starved on Sivir (or pretty much every champ with a ranged spell that is good for harrassing). As long as you can harrass efficiently, you should do it. And considering Sivir's low range, you should actually HAVE to use spells a lot to not get denied. Otherwise your enemies will just pressure you whenever you try to lasthit. press e helps a lot i play sivir a lot on my smurf cuz she's one of the few champs i can carry with, but even on my main it's not that hard to predict when to use e... q is great but i use it very sparingly for farm, if a last hit is far away i'll use w to get it instead :3 lol i haven't tried triforce on her yet but it sounds like fun.. i usually go boots of speed start with zerks > BT > PD > BT > BT > PD/GA or something like that I can't tell if you're kidding about your build or not...
nope
why, do you have a problem with my build?
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United States37500 Posts
Stacking BTs is a legitimate strat on Sivir. It sounds stupid but she's the only AD that can go 3 BTs and roll face. Her farming is unparalleled.
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also i'm playing on my smurf so games where i get my full item build is not uncommon, in a legit game my build would probably be different
not like i play legit games on my main anyways my only sivir game on there is jungle
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not to mention that sivir gets huge ASPD and movespeed bonus with her ultimate, and her spellshield makes her "tanky" enough to take advantage of lifesteal gud
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On December 25 2011 18:15 NeoIllusions wrote:
Stacking BTs is a legitimate strat on Sivir. It sounds stupid but she's the only AD that can go 3 BTs and roll face. Her farming is unparalleled.
someone clearly hasnt played tryndamere at low elo
On December 25 2011 18:37 Navi wrote:
not to mention that sivir gets huge ASPD and movespeed bonus with her ultimate, and her spellshield makes her "tanky" enough to take advantage of lifesteal gud
i dont know about that, blocking 1 spell is nice i guess but having to rely on ulti for her steroid is probably a big weakness, but on the flip side bringing an aoe buff in team rights is something a lot of ADs cant do.
what are peoples prefered support on sivir? blitz could be gimicky at low lvl since q's dmg is full retard at lvl 3, but sona i think would be better for 'serious' games? too much buffs
maybe im just a bad but i go ghostblade at some point on her pretty much every game. she needs her ult to compete head to head with other ad's and gains a lot from her used spells, so cdr i think is quite nice on her.
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Nunu. Always chase, never get caught.
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my preferred sivir is mid, great ganker
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On December 25 2011 20:48 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2011 18:15 NeoIllusions wrote:
Stacking BTs is a legitimate strat on Sivir. It sounds stupid but she's the only AD that can go 3 BTs and roll face. Her farming is unparalleled. someone clearly hasnt played tryndamere at low elo Show nested quote +On December 25 2011 18:37 Navi wrote:
not to mention that sivir gets huge ASPD and movespeed bonus with her ultimate, and her spellshield makes her "tanky" enough to take advantage of lifesteal gud i dont know about that, blocking 1 spell is nice i guess but having to rely on ulti for her steroid is probably a big weakness, but on the flip side bringing an aoe buff in team rights is something a lot of ADs cant do. what are peoples prefered support on sivir? blitz could be gimicky at low lvl since q's dmg is full retard at lvl 3, but sona i think would be better for 'serious' games? too much buffs maybe im just a bad but i go ghostblade at some point on her pretty much every game. she needs her ult to compete head to head with other ad's and gains a lot from her used spells, so cdr i think is quite nice on her.
Hey now, Trynd wants one of those BTs to be an IE :p
15 seconds out of every 80 really isn't that bad of an uptime, the teamfight is likely to be finishing up by then.
Sivir wants someone who can be a bit aggressive/harass along with her, so Sona does sound good, maybe Janna too since she's sort of an AD caster-carry
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If you really want the lifesteal for smurfing why not sion?
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that's not really what i want for smurfing lol, sion is boring imo and i don't like to play melee
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Taric is pretty good with her, stun = free boomerangs
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Can anyone recommend a good rune build for Sivir now? I don't want to go with a build that's before she got reworked. I think that armor pen red, mr blue, armor yellow and armor pen quint is good, but I'd like to hear from other people.
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I go flat ad red/quints vs anyone other than graves.
Arp red and ad quints vs graves.
That lvl 2 Q with +15 ad mmmmkay
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You do less damage with AD reds than ARP reds.
With standard 21/X/X masteries and a dblade,
Four setups, each testing first hit of Q, return hit of Q, and one auto attack. No minions getting hit by Q to dilute the Q. I walk into lane as Sivir with 33 armor; other ADs are going to be at a similar amount except Graves.
13 Armor vs AD reds + AD quints: 95/75 Q, 75 Auto
13 Armor vs ARP reds + AD quints: 91/73 Q, 71 Auto
33 Armor vs AD reds + AD quints: 81/65 Q, 64 Auto
33 Armor vs ARP reds + AD quints: 82/66 Q, 64 Auto
Basically the only time AD do more damage than ARP is when the person walks into lane with no +armor whatsoever, which doesn't happen. Even then you're talking doing an extra 5 damage in a best case scenario.
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flat ad good because it helps csin too !
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On January 26 2012 20:35 Craton wrote:
You do less damage with AD reds than ARP reds.
With standard 21/X/X masteries and a dblade,
Four setups, each testing first hit of Q, return hit of Q, and one auto attack. No minions getting hit by Q to dilute the Q. I walk into lane as Sivir with 33 armor; other ADs are going to be at a similar amount except Graves.
13 Armor vs AD reds + AD quints: 95/75 Q, 75 Auto
13 Armor vs ARP reds + AD quints: 91/73 Q, 71 Auto
33 Armor vs AD reds + AD quints: 81/65 Q, 64 Auto
33 Armor vs ARP reds + AD quints: 82/66 Q, 64 Auto
Basically the only time AD do more damage than ARP is when the person walks into lane with no +armor whatsoever, which doesn't happen. Even then you're talking doing an extra 5 damage in a best case scenario.
So you lose 2 damage at lvl 1 and CSing is considerably harder... AD all the way.
Also remember some supports will have gold/10 instead of armour seals = free frags for flat ad.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On January 26 2012 20:57 arthur wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 20:35 Craton wrote:
You do less damage with AD reds than ARP reds.
With standard 21/X/X masteries and a dblade,
Four setups, each testing first hit of Q, return hit of Q, and one auto attack. No minions getting hit by Q to dilute the Q. I walk into lane as Sivir with 33 armor; other ADs are going to be at a similar amount except Graves.
13 Armor vs AD reds + AD quints: 95/75 Q, 75 Auto
13 Armor vs ARP reds + AD quints: 91/73 Q, 71 Auto
33 Armor vs AD reds + AD quints: 81/65 Q, 64 Auto
33 Armor vs ARP reds + AD quints: 82/66 Q, 64 Auto
Basically the only time AD do more damage than ARP is when the person walks into lane with no +armor whatsoever, which doesn't happen. Even then you're talking doing an extra 5 damage in a best case scenario. So you lose 2 damage at lvl 1 and CSing is considerably harder... AD all the way. Also remember some supports will have gold/10 instead of armour seals = free frags for flat ad.
Does not compute. Does not low armor mean that APen is more effective than AD? Like with APen reds you have 21 APen so you can shit on people without armor boosts at levels 1-2 and maybe 3, then you stop negating 100% their armor. With AD reds your damage is greater on people with extremely low armor (like 5-10, this just doesn't exist) and on people with 30+ armor.
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On December 25 2011 18:05 unichan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2011 10:49 Perplex wrote:On December 25 2011 04:03 unichan wrote:On December 08 2011 18:28 spinesheath wrote:
I don't get how you can not be mana starved on Sivir (or pretty much every champ with a ranged spell that is good for harrassing). As long as you can harrass efficiently, you should do it. And considering Sivir's low range, you should actually HAVE to use spells a lot to not get denied. Otherwise your enemies will just pressure you whenever you try to lasthit. press e helps a lot i play sivir a lot on my smurf cuz she's one of the few champs i can carry with, but even on my main it's not that hard to predict when to use e... q is great but i use it very sparingly for farm, if a last hit is far away i'll use w to get it instead :3 lol i haven't tried triforce on her yet but it sounds like fun.. i usually go boots of speed start with zerks > BT > PD > BT > BT > PD/GA or something like that I can't tell if you're kidding about your build or not... nope why, do you have a problem with my build?
Neo
Stacking BTs is a legitimate strat on Sivir. It sounds stupid but she's the only AD that can go 3 BTs and roll face. Her farming is unparalleled.
Standard ranged carry masteries + runes assumed:
Berserkers greaves, phantom dancer, bloodthirster (fully stacked) on level 18 Sivir with ultimate on (+60% attack speed):
502 damage per second
Add another bloodthirster and a pickaxe (3975 gold):
801 dps (299 extra)
Add infinity edge instead (3800 gold):
980 dps (478 extra)
I actually think multiple bloodthirsters on anyone is terrible, even if they can be kept fully stacked. Every auto attacker seems to benefit the most from balancing all of the multiplicatively scaling offensive stats (attack damage, critical strike, attack speed and armor penetration).
Besides, you will have a huge power lull after dying with three bloodthirsters as suggested in the build by unichan.
Edit:
Actually the math suggests that bloodthirster in itself is a terrible item. Only with full stacks can it be considered cost effective, and even then it should only be bought when you need more attack damage but already have infinity edge. This would occur after multiple phantom dancers, so realistically bloodthirster would be worthwhile as the next item when you are sitting on:
Berserkers greaves + infinity edge + phantom dancer + phantom dancer. If you have in-built attack speed steroid, you could skip the second phantom dancer.
PS. I draw these conclusions from mingling with a spread sheet with ~every item combination for each AD carry. Another fun observation is that on-hit builds are very effective for guys like kog and vayne until you hit IE + double PD, at which point the AD builds take over. However, the lack of movespeed is devastating even though on hit items give defensive stats.
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BT stacking stopped being good a long time ago.
Supports that rune gp10 seals still run armor reds and some defensive masteries.
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I've had much success with this build recently:
Dblade > Zerkers > BT > PD > IE > PD > LW
Should I be getting the second PD or instead use another BT since her ult gives you basically the same stuff? Personally I like the mobility and ASPD from sporting 2 PD which helps when bursting enemy towers.
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Rushing IE + PD is the most effective build dps-wise.
Dblade > Zerkers > IE > (vamp scepter) > PD > LW > Sell Dblade for PD > Upgrade vamp scepter to BT
And to answer your question: Yes, PD is better.
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On January 26 2012 23:13 Blyf wrote:
Standard ranged carry masteries + runes assumed:
Berserkers greaves, phantom dancer, bloodthirster (fully stacked) on level 18 Sivir with ultimate on (+60% attack speed):
502 damage per second
Add another bloodthirster and a pickaxe (3975 gold):
801 dps (299 extra)
Add infinity edge instead (3800 gold):
980 dps (478 extra)
I actually think multiple bloodthirsters on anyone is terrible, even if they can be kept fully stacked. Every auto attacker seems to benefit the most from balancing all of the multiplicatively scaling offensive stats (attack damage, critical strike, attack speed and armor penetration).
Besides, you will have a huge power lull after dying with three bloodthirsters as suggested in the build by unichan.
Edit:
Actually the math suggests that bloodthirster in itself is a terrible item. Only with full stacks can it be considered cost effective, and even then it should only be bought when you need more attack damage but already have infinity edge. This would occur after multiple phantom dancers, so realistically bloodthirster would be worthwhile as the next item when you are sitting on:
Berserkers greaves + infinity edge + phantom dancer + phantom dancer. If you have in-built attack speed steroid, you could skip the second phantom dancer.
PS. I draw these conclusions from mingling with a spread sheet with ~every item combination for each AD carry. Another fun observation is that on-hit builds are very effective for guys like kog and vayne until you hit IE + double PD, at which point the AD builds take over. However, the lack of movespeed is devastating even though on hit items give defensive stats.
As a noob who is trying to play Sivir well, I salute you for actually doing the math, and doing it in detail.
Now, a question about the general play style: For some reason I rarely seem to do particularly well as Sivir, I just don't have the good items fast enough. I suspect I leave my lane too soon, especially if we lost one tower early (e.g. in one game they pushed bot 4v2).
What is the most solid way to play Sivir (or similar AD carries) early/mid game?
When do you stop afkfarming bot? Is it based on your items, your team's towers, or something else?
If we lose bot tower, do I just stay in lane and farm up anyway, even if I can't push safely? Or do I start roaming/jungling/pushing another lane?
I realize this isn't really a Sivir-specific question. I don't have this "what do I do for the next ten minutes" problem as a jungler or solo top/mid, for some reason.
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On January 26 2012 23:13 Blyf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2011 18:05 unichan wrote:On December 25 2011 10:49 Perplex wrote:On December 25 2011 04:03 unichan wrote:On December 08 2011 18:28 spinesheath wrote:
I don't get how you can not be mana starved on Sivir (or pretty much every champ with a ranged spell that is good for harrassing). As long as you can harrass efficiently, you should do it. And considering Sivir's low range, you should actually HAVE to use spells a lot to not get denied. Otherwise your enemies will just pressure you whenever you try to lasthit. press e helps a lot i play sivir a lot on my smurf cuz she's one of the few champs i can carry with, but even on my main it's not that hard to predict when to use e... q is great but i use it very sparingly for farm, if a last hit is far away i'll use w to get it instead :3 lol i haven't tried triforce on her yet but it sounds like fun.. i usually go boots of speed start with zerks > BT > PD > BT > BT > PD/GA or something like that I can't tell if you're kidding about your build or not... nope why, do you have a problem with my build? Neo Show nested quote +Stacking BTs is a legitimate strat on Sivir. It sounds stupid but she's the only AD that can go 3 BTs and roll face. Her farming is unparalleled. Standard ranged carry masteries + runes assumed: Berserkers greaves, phantom dancer, bloodthirster (fully stacked) on level 18 Sivir with ultimate on (+60% attack speed): 502 damage per second Add another bloodthirster and a pickaxe (3975 gold): 801 dps (299 extra) Add infinity edge instead (3800 gold): 980 dps (478 extra) I actually think multiple bloodthirsters on anyone is terrible, even if they can be kept fully stacked. Every auto attacker seems to benefit the most from balancing all of the multiplicatively scaling offensive stats (attack damage, critical strike, attack speed and armor penetration). Besides, you will have a huge power lull after dying with three bloodthirsters as suggested in the build by unichan. Edit: Actually the math suggests that bloodthirster in itself is a terrible item. Only with full stacks can it be considered cost effective, and even then it should only be bought when you need more attack damage but already have infinity edge. This would occur after multiple phantom dancers, so realistically bloodthirster would be worthwhile as the next item when you are sitting on: Berserkers greaves + infinity edge + phantom dancer + phantom dancer. If you have in-built attack speed steroid, you could skip the second phantom dancer. PS. I draw these conclusions from mingling with a spread sheet with ~every item combination for each AD carry. Another fun observation is that on-hit builds are very effective for guys like kog and vayne until you hit IE + double PD, at which point the AD builds take over. However, the lack of movespeed is devastating even though on hit items give defensive stats.
You're forgetting that sivir does more than auto, has an AA reset and has shorter range than many other AD carries, meaning that she's going to need some form of damage mitigation or sustain. BT lifesteal is non negligible.
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This is all theorycrafting and you forget that you can kite while doing damage at the same time. The extra BTs let you sustain more than w/e combo of IE/PD/BT/LW thus lengthening the fight and outputting more damage overall. In some cases you're better off with something else other than stacking BTs like if you need to burst other squishies before they burst you, but saying BT stacking isn't viable is wrong.
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On January 28 2012 08:02 bmn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 23:13 Blyf wrote:
Standard ranged carry masteries + runes assumed:
Berserkers greaves, phantom dancer, bloodthirster (fully stacked) on level 18 Sivir with ultimate on (+60% attack speed):
502 damage per second
Add another bloodthirster and a pickaxe (3975 gold):
801 dps (299 extra)
Add infinity edge instead (3800 gold):
980 dps (478 extra)
I actually think multiple bloodthirsters on anyone is terrible, even if they can be kept fully stacked. Every auto attacker seems to benefit the most from balancing all of the multiplicatively scaling offensive stats (attack damage, critical strike, attack speed and armor penetration).
Besides, you will have a huge power lull after dying with three bloodthirsters as suggested in the build by unichan.
Edit:
Actually the math suggests that bloodthirster in itself is a terrible item. Only with full stacks can it be considered cost effective, and even then it should only be bought when you need more attack damage but already have infinity edge. This would occur after multiple phantom dancers, so realistically bloodthirster would be worthwhile as the next item when you are sitting on:
Berserkers greaves + infinity edge + phantom dancer + phantom dancer. If you have in-built attack speed steroid, you could skip the second phantom dancer.
PS. I draw these conclusions from mingling with a spread sheet with ~every item combination for each AD carry. Another fun observation is that on-hit builds are very effective for guys like kog and vayne until you hit IE + double PD, at which point the AD builds take over. However, the lack of movespeed is devastating even though on hit items give defensive stats. As a noob who is trying to play Sivir well, I salute you for actually doing the math, and doing it in detail. Now, a question about the general play style: For some reason I rarely seem to do particularly well as Sivir, I just don't have the good items fast enough. I suspect I leave my lane too soon, especially if we lost one tower early (e.g. in one game they pushed bot 4v2). What is the most solid way to play Sivir (or similar AD carries) early/mid game? When do you stop afkfarming bot? Is it based on your items, your team's towers, or something else? If we lose bot tower, do I just stay in lane and farm up anyway, even if I can't push safely? Or do I start roaming/jungling/pushing another lane? I realize this isn't really a Sivir-specific question. I don't have this "what do I do for the next ten minutes" problem as a jungler or solo top/mid, for some reason.
It's really hard to tell you what you are doing wrong or what you need to do if you don't post any replays or a vod of you playing. Because every situation is different, and what you may think is the problem may not be the problem. And giving a really general or specific rule may not fit your play and situation.
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On January 28 2012 16:43 R04R wrote:
This is all theorycrafting and you forget that you can kite while doing damage at the same time. The extra BTs let you sustain more than w/e combo of IE/PD/BT/LW thus lengthening the fight and outputting more damage overall. In some cases you're better off with something else other than stacking BTs like if you need to burst other squishies before they burst you, but saying BT stacking isn't viable is wrong.
Well it seems the new trend for first back is to end up with Boots, 2xDorans, Vamp Scepter and then making IE.
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I've had some success with a triforce later on in the game. The slow early on can be really helpful.
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Does Sivir spellshield have a delay? I noticed that the spell's animation (the bubble) doesn't play immediatly but rather progressively when you press the key, is it functional from the get-go or is the animation a "windup" and it only cancels a spell while the bubble is fully formed?
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it appears to be instant, or if there is a delay you have enough time. any projectile attack you can wait till its in the air before hitting the shield and stop it if you pay attention.
so after q nerf on sivir my choice to open w lvl 1 on her looking even stronker. i always took w first because it only dealt 1 less dmg than q (assuming you only got 1 hit on the q) at level 1 and couldnt miss. this allowed me to get more reliable harras at level 1 setting up for some big pain at level 3.
On January 30 2012 05:05 Dark_Chill wrote:
I've had some success with a triforce later on in the game. The slow early on can be really helpful.
i love triforce too but, i hate not having a frozen mallet ;/ even though sivir runs at 10000 mph, the lack of 100% slow gives me ocd or something. its also more reliable in team situations, just because your running faster with passive doesnt mean team can keep up if you get unlucky on the phage.
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On February 01 2012 22:32 turdburgler wrote:
it appears to be instant, or if there is a delay you have enough time. any projectile attack you can wait till its in the air before hitting the shield and stop it if you pay attention.
so after q nerf on sivir my choice to open w lvl 1 on her looking even stronker. i always took w first because it only dealt 1 less dmg than q (assuming you only got 1 hit on the q) at level 1 and couldnt miss. this allowed me to get more reliable harras at level 1 setting up for some big pain at level 3.
The greater range on Q is too good. And it's actually not that hard to get a double hit, just have to capitalise on errors in ther position, like if you notice their support go to ward, or if they are trapped in between tower, or when you see them going for a last hit.
And then there's the case wher eyou have taric as a support. stun -> q all day erry day.
The nerfs seem pretty big... but to be fair, she was pretty damn good, so these prrobably bring her back down to earth. I'll probably still make her my AD of choice, just cause I really liked playing her before.
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Sivir still stronk. Give 20% ms to team. Not as good as 30% but still really good. Boomerang blade less OP. Take 30% of your life, not 40%
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What do you guys think of Sivir with Ms quints? It seems to make sense since it works well with her passive, as well as give her the extra ms she needs because of a lack of an escape. It works with her ult as well, and kiting is better in general.
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On May 11 2012 08:13 Dark_Chill wrote:
What do you guys think of Sivir with Ms quints? It seems to make sense since it works well with her passive, as well as give her the extra ms she needs because of a lack of an escape. It works with her ult as well, and kiting is better in general.
If you're playing her correctly, it's completely unnecessary. Sivir's base movement speed is 310, already as high as AD carries go. Sure you move slightly faster but with sivir, the extra damage on a combo/Q harass is just too good. Her passive is 50ms, plenty for either disengaging from a trade or following up on a trade. If they decide to run and let you get free shots off, you've won the trade. If they let you continue your combo and land Q/W, you've won the trade. movespeed just gets you out of situations which you shouldn't be in in the first place, especially since Sivir's ultimate+passive results in a huge amount of mobility, a good deal more than what's provided by MS quints.
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Hello, the OP seems a bit outdated. What summoner spell do you use with sivir besides flash? This probably applies for other ad carries as well.
The problem is, she is so slow and has no escape like corki or ezreal. While the spell shield is nice and might help you escape by blocking a disable I dont think its as good as corkis e f.e.
So I'm not sure. Its probably depending on the support as well so I'm kinda lost. Ignite seems to be a bad idea. Heal/Surge/Ghost/Cleanse/teleport/clarity all seem to be beneficial in certain ways (heal = heal, surge = dps, Ghost = escape, cleanse = dps/escape, teleport = farming, clarity = spam dat q/w)
Also what support do you prefer when playing sivir? Soraka is kinda nice because of heal/mana replenish, but I think she is weak overall compared to Taric
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with almost every matchup i prefere cleanse nowadays, especially if you go against a support like Leona or junglers like Amumu that can ensnare or stun you for many seconds, the debuff removal and the follow up reduction is just so good on most of carries, especially if they don't have the escapes like sivir does, one could argue that Sivir already has a spell shield so she doesn't quite require cleanse, which is reasonable, but i always prefere to have a failsafe rather than risking an ignite on her, which of course could secure kills but it's not really a long term summoners as you don't get close in fights later on so you cannot really ignite anyway..
Against lanes or matchups without particular cc i might run heal or ignite, depens on my support...
As support choice with Sivir, of course Soraka is the best one for mana regen and heal+armor, but it's kinda squishy if you go vs blitz/alistar/leona/taric, so expect to lose straight engagements, you should rely on your harass and poke them, make them weaker and push a lot while farming, i think that, as Sivir, you have to make your opponent leave lane early so you get a needed advantage in term of DPS even without kills, that is with Soraka support, so you can spam spells without bothering of mana depletion.
Other supports that work well imo, i'd say Taric/Ali for trades and sustain, Nunu is amazing too with his W and slow, really blends well with Sivir kit, i wouldn't really pick Blitz as a good support with Sivir, since she doesn't really have any explosive burst like Graves on which you can capitalyze on grabs, for the same reason Leona is not particularly effective aswell, but i like her a bit more, still a ton of CC + your ult is almost a certain kill, and she can threaten the lane while you harass and farm.
Janna is meh, Lulu is okayish..
Take my words as a grain of salt, that's how i play her so other people might not agree with me.
Another note on carries in general, this "escape" thing in my opinion is getting too out of hand, of course having and escape skill is very useful, but i think you should force yourself into playing champs that don't really have it (Ashe for istance) so you get really good at positioning in fights and lanes, and then when you pick champs that even have escapes you become even deadlier because you already know how to position and use the escape just in case.. I think the best skill of a carry, after last hitting is positioning in a team fight properly, having an escape make you a lot sloppier on that part.
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I think I should answer that without being too arrogant I would say im probably one of the best Sivir players in Europe and I recently started playing her again due to me wondering why I stopped playing her
Summoner spells: Ignite/Flash every single game. I guess you could use Cleanse in case you really need it (for example amumu/Sona/Ashe etc etc) but if you want Cleanse other Ads are probably better. Teleport.... I think you think of that because of CLG.nas 3 TP promote style but to quote Chauster: the strategy resolves around having 3 TPs NOT having Sivir (Sivir is ok for that but personally I would probably prefer Caitlyn due to being better for splitpushing/counter initiate) Teleport might be an okay thing for premade but not Solo q. Ghost: just no you already have enough MS Clarity: serious?
Heal in my opinion is too nerfed and Ignite too dominant on botlane so it gets halved pretty much anyway + heals not enough take Cleanse over Heal 90% of the games.
With Sivir you want to kill stuff. You have killing potential over the whole laning phase (especially level 2 you have the ability to burst someone at least 60% of their hp)
While Soraka and Nunu might be okayish with Sivir they are not really great and Sivir is not the best pick you might just pick Graves/soraka and be better at it or Kogmaw/Nunu or sth like this.
As I said before with Sivir you want to fight early so you want supports who are great at that: Taric Leona (Blitz I hate blitz and hes not really that strong early on but if you like that champ you can pick him) even Janna is in my opinion really good with Sivir due to you being able to chase well and you have the burst time with the shield up + slow to set up for Sivir burst.
Sivir cant be just reduced to the laning phase you want to have a good team for her (obviously not really doable in solo q) you want champions which can go in and kill stuff + benefit from her ulitmate some examples: Nocturne Irelia Skarner (especially if combined with Jayce beastly) what I started really liking is Rengar jungle and if hes close to the target with invisibility you use your ult as Sivir and just rush them down (laning phase)
Hope that helps a bit if you have other questions just ask
Edit: as the guy over me said Alistar forgot him hes mostly banned anyway :p
edit2:
since she doesn't really have any explosive burst like Graves on which you can capitalyze on grabs,
Wth? Sivir outbursts Graves really hard Sivir is the highest dmg early game ad carry.
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Yes early game i agree, but i think later on she kinda falls off, might just be my impression tho, anyway i'm 100% sure you are more used to Sivir than me as i see you are very high elo, so i will surely agree with everything you say :D i still have much to learn so i thank you too for you post.
I didn't thought about Janna as a good support, instead it makes a lot of sense, with her passive giving you even more mov speed and her q and slow + shield, amazing kiting, indeed.
do you rush BT or go for IE 1st?
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do you rush BT or go for IE 1st?
that question my answer is : both to elaborate that more:
It really depends on the money and what you want to do with your money. In premade Sivir is often taken for 2v1 situations and there you most of the time want a BT to be able to push better/ you have in general lower money anyway. If I cant buy a BF sword when I back first I might go for the pickaxe (I sometimes, rarely but it happens, go for Brutalizer if I want lane domination and cant buy a BF sword AD amorpen and cdr great for Sivir)
Yes Lategame Sivir falls off (lowish dmg and 500 range) but there is nothing you can do about that you have to utilize Sivirs strength and not somehow even her weakness out. If you want sth strong lategame just dont pick Sivir and pick Trist kog or sth which is beastly lategame.
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On September 16 2012 03:25 ThE)ShoWTimE wrote:
Yes early game i agree, but i think later on she kinda falls off, might just be my impression tho, anyway i'm 100% sure you are more used to Sivir than me as i see you are very high elo, so i will surely agree with everything you say :D i still have much to learn so i thank you too for you post.
I didn't thought about Janna as a good support, instead it makes a lot of sense, with her passive giving you even more mov speed and her q and slow + shield, amazing kiting, indeed.
do you rush BT or go for IE 1st?
im no expert but id probably guess BT. your w and q scale well off pure AD. on the other hand IE will get you more dmg off autos, but bt will make your burst big and you can try and grab more early game kills
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On September 16 2012 03:25 ThE)ShoWTimE wrote:
do you rush BT or go for IE 1st?
Oh yeah I forgot that. Usually I see ad carries go for IE and PD. Some (corki/ezreal) go for TF first. With sivir I dont know, I used to go for TF first because of slow/sustainability/overall good item. But I got flamed hard for it.
On September 16 2012 03:12 Ente wrote:
Summoner spells: Ignite/Flash every single game. I guess you could use Cleanse in case you really need it (for example amumu/Sona/Ashe etc etc) but if you want Cleanse other Ads are probably better. Teleport.... I think you think of that because of CLG.nas 3 TP promote style but to quote Chauster: the strategy resolves around having 3 TPs NOT having Sivir (Sivir is ok for that but personally I would probably prefer Caitlyn due to being better for splitpushing/counter initiate)
Actually I just thought (and read somewhere) that she is a strong farmer/pusher and that TP might be good idea. I never tried it though.
ith Sivir you want to kill stuff. You have killing potential over the whole laning phase (especially level 2 you have the ability to burst someone at least 60% of their hp)
So I assume you skill q w instead of q e like i do and then go for dat harass? Interesting.
While Soraka and Nunu might be okayish with Sivir they are not really great and Sivir is not the best pick you might just pick Graves/soraka and be better at it or Kogmaw/Nunu or sth like this.
As I said before with Sivir you want to fight early so you want supports who are great at that: Taric Leona (Blitz I hate blitz and hes not really that strong early on but if you like that champ you can pick him) even Janna is in my opinion really good with Sivir due to you being able to chase well and you have the burst time with the shield up + slow to set up for Sivir burst.
Sivir cant be just reduced to the laning phase you want to have a good team for her (obviously not really doable in solo q) you want champions which can go in and kill stuff + benefit from her ulitmate some examples: Nocturne Irelia Skarner (especially if combined with Jayce beastly) what I started really liking is Rengar jungle and if hes close to the target with invisibility you use your ult as Sivir and just rush them down (laning phase)
Thanks, that's really helping me.
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So I assume you skill q w instead of q e like i do and then go for dat harass? Interesting.
In most cases yes most not every!
If I go Q - E I usually go Q - E - W for the extra burst (sometimes I also go Q - W - E) it really depends if you need the spellshield or not and how agressive you want to be.
Actually I just thought (and read somewhere) that she is a strong farmer/pusher and that TP might be good idea. I never tried it though.
Shes okayish but you dont really want to afk farm with her you want to fight prechange Sivir was really really really good lategmae the new one is not that good.
Oh yeah I forgot that. Usually I see ad carries go for IE and PD. Some (corki/ezreal) go for TF first. With sivir I dont know, I used to go for TF first because of slow/sustainability/overall good item. But I got flamed hard for it.
Yeah Trinity is not that great for Sivir first (thinking of it sometimes lategame when I dont care about money and can just throw it in instead of PD or sth but not really sure yet) Sivir has too high cooldowns for trinity to be that great and she needs AD for her skills to do significant amounts of damage.
im no expert but id probably guess BT. your w and q scale well off pure AD. on the other hand IE will get you more dmg off autos, but bt will make your burst big and you can try and grab more early game kills
The AD difference from BT to IE is not significant enough 15 dmg from a fullstacked BT to IE. IE is always always on every single champion more damage then BT (everything is more dmg then BT for that matter including PD / LW ) you get BT because its cheaper and for the lifesteal but the build up is sometimes too hard (you cant always safe 1650 gold for the BF sword) btw if I go IE first (which I actually do in most cases) I often get executioners calling now because if you get IE first your BT will only be purchased really late and probably as your last item so a cheap/not itemslot costing lifesteal item is quite nice. And 900g for 8% lifesteal 15% crit the extra dmg passive and the -heal active is quite nice.
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You should also consider that you can get BT for 3k, which is about BFS + pickaxe + vamp scepter (you'll often get a vamp even when going IE first), in which case you're starting at 60 AD versus 70, and going up from last hitting. At this point you're better at dueling and your burst is higher, and in those cases where I dominate my lane or get fed early I tend to prefer BT because I know I'll stack it easily (laning not ended yet) while using its good cost-efficiency and sustain to outharass, outsustain or even straight up duel the opposing AD and ride my advantage. You can also get that BT stacked before IE, and then you simply kill towers faster with your ult, which is nice if (still ssuming you built it because you were ahead) helps you push your advantage when you want to take all the outer turrets to get a big gold lead.
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thats why I said it depends but having a pickaxe often makes a difference besides not having anything and in my opinion if you have the pickaxe you should go for IE and not for BT
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On September 16 2012 04:08 Alaric wrote:
You should also consider that you can get BT for 3k, which is about BFS + pickaxe + vamp scepter (you'll often get a vamp even when going IE first), in which case you're starting at 60 AD versus 70, and going up from last hitting. At this point you're better at dueling and your burst is higher, and in those cases where I dominate my lane or get fed early I tend to prefer BT because I know I'll stack it easily (laning not ended yet) while using its good cost-efficiency and sustain to outharass, outsustain or even straight up duel the opposing AD and ride my advantage. You can also get that BT stacked before IE, and then you simply kill towers faster with your ult, which is nice if (still ssuming you built it because you were ahead) helps you push your advantage when you want to take all the outer turrets to get a big gold lead.
Idk i feel like BT is needed on your shorter range ADC, like vayne graves, and in this case sivir. you're going to be close so the extra lifesteal def helps out alot
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Idk i feel like BT is needed on your shorter range ADC, like vayne graves, and in this case sivir. you're going to be close so the extra lifesteal def helps out alot
I can guarantee you its not needed its not bad I sometimes go BT on Sivir first aswell but I do not always go BT first on vayne graves and Sivir. Just imagine: you are behind in the game the laning phase is already over none of your team is fed/you have a low dmg team (for example malph top mao jungle or sth) You will need the straight up damage which you do not have with BT but you might have it with IE (besides IE having more dmg then BT anyway but later items will be even more delayed if you go BT)
So yes BT is a nice item on all of them and no you should not "brainlessly" go in a game and say: I will go BT no matter what (you should not do that with IE either)
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On September 16 2012 07:04 Ente wrote:Show nested quote +
Idk i feel like BT is needed on your shorter range ADC, like vayne graves, and in this case sivir. you're going to be close so the extra lifesteal def helps out alot
I can guarantee you its not needed its not bad I sometimes go BT on Sivir first aswell but I do not always go BT first on vayne graves and Sivir. Just imagine: you are behind in the game the laning phase is already over none of your team is fed/you have a low dmg team (for example malph top mao jungle or sth) You will need the straight up damage which you do not have with BT but you might have it with IE (besides IE having more dmg then BT anyway but later items will be even more delayed if you go BT) So yes BT is a nice item on all of them and no you should not "brainlessly" go in a game and say: I will go BT no matter what (you should not do that with IE either)
It's not really a brainless choice, theres some games where i'll go IE(im farming really well or we're shitting on botlane pretty hard or something) but generally if my teams doing semi decent, we dont need an asston of damage right away, i'll almost always got BT. I'd say roughly 7/10 games i'll build BT first and the other 3 will be IE(unless on corki or ez or something)
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i dunno i fell IE is such a much better item than BT, i find myself getting BT first kinda rarely, if i do it is because i'm losing and it is a cheap item to get, assuming you have a vamp and a BF sword already.
IE just does much more damage and the crit strike is just too good to pass up, you simply melt people so fast with it, also after it getting PD just makes you total beast with every ADC, instead if you can't charge BT properly and then get PD you will just be outclassed 1v1 vs someone who has IE and PD (you are already losing badly anyway if you're in this situation)..
Not only this, but lately i've been doing IE -> PD into an early GA if i feel i'm winning or i am really ahead, pretty much closes the game since you already do tons of dmg and you get this huge armor and resurrection, in teamfights is awesome especially as Graves, because of your passive, you simply do not die.
So, in a even game or in a game where you can atleast get a couple of kills in laning phase, i always go for IE, if i am behind BT, but i know that going BT is not really bringing me back into a game easely, meanwhile even if you are behind and can somewhat get that IE you might do something for your team straight away in a team fight.
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It's not really a brainless choice, theres some games where i'll go IE(im farming really well or we're shitting on botlane pretty hard or something)
That is actually in general the wrong choice
When you shit on your opponent you want to shit on them even harder and thats easier done with a BT in addition to that when you farm good/shit on your opponent you get your items early on and you can go BT/PD by ~22 minutes which is a decent time
IE is about 20% more dmg then a BT that actually doesnt change too much with additional items IE is always the highest damaging item out of the whole AD carry itembuild (yes I think there is no amount of armor that LW surpasses IE)
BT on the other hand is a half offensive half defensive item which you can build if you dont full dmg but want a bit dmg and a bit survivability for example if you are insanly far ahead and your only problem is you possibly dieing to harrass or sth but your problem is not bruisers which are unkillable.
we dont need an asston of damage right away, i'll almost always got BT.
The thing is not the right away: What do you do if you get IE? you will follow up with PD/definsive item like GA QSS most likely after that you get LW so you have your big dmg items IE PD really fast.
What do you do with BT you usually get the PD second for the AS/MS really good item but then? if you get a defensive item you wont really do damage if you go LW your dmg is not really high either because you have no IE. So by going BT first you will delay your IE to atleast 30 minutes if you would go straight BT -> PD -> IE and if you would get defensive items/possibly Last whisper (I do not recommend that) you will delay your IE post 35 minutes and you really might lack damage.
TLDR: if you are far ahead /have other dmg sources like Jax get BT if you are behind/are the only dmg source in your team get IE
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On September 16 2012 07:35 Ente wrote:Show nested quote +
It's not really a brainless choice, theres some games where i'll go IE(im farming really well or we're shitting on botlane pretty hard or something)
That is actually in general the wrong choice When you shit on your opponent you want to shit on them even harder and thats easier done with a BT in addition to that when you farm good/shit on your opponent you get your items early on and you can go BT/PD by ~22 minutes which is a decent time IE is about 20% more dmg then a BT that actually doesnt change too much with additional items IE is always the highest damaging item out of the whole AD carry itembuild (yes I think there is no amount of armor that LW surpasses IE) BT on the other hand is a half offensive half defensive item which you can build if you dont full dmg but want a bit dmg and a bit survivability for example if you are insanly far ahead and your only problem is you possibly dieing to harrass or sth but your problem is not bruisers which are unkillable. The thing is not the right away: What do you do if you get IE? you will follow up with PD/definsive item like GA QSS most likely after that you get LW so you have your big dmg items IE PD really fast. What do you do with BT you usually get the PD second for the AS/MS really good item but then? if you get a defensive item you wont really do damage if you go LW your dmg is not really high either because you have no IE. So by going BT first you will delay your IE to atleast 30 minutes if you would go straight BT -> PD -> IE and if you would get defensive items/possibly Last whisper (I do not recommend that) you will delay your IE post 35 minutes and you really might lack damage. TLDR: if you are far ahead /have other dmg sources like Jax get BT if you are behind/are the only dmg source in your team get IE
I dunno i just really like BT in general, i always figured if youre shitting on them and can get it hella early, then grab IE and shit on them some more. I guess i'll have to experiment with more IE openings it seems.
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I have another question: I've seen several people now who go pure +AD. 21 or so you get with runes alone, +masteries (havoc etc). Now I always go 21-9-0 with armor and MR runes, but I wonder if that is a mistake. As the ranged adc, shouldnt you try to maximize your dmg? Glass cannon ftw? Harass is much stronger, last hit is easier etc..
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On October 15 2012 02:59 Djin)ftw( wrote:
I have another question: I've seen several people now who go pure +AD. 21 or so you get with runes alone, +masteries (havoc etc). Now I always go 21-9-0 with armor and MR runes, but I wonder if that is a mistake. As the ranged adc, shouldnt you try to maximize your dmg? Glass cannon ftw? Harass is much stronger, last hit is easier etc..
You only do damage while you're alive. If you run pure AD in runes with no armour and run up against a caitlyn, for example, you're going to be basing 4 minutes into the game or dead. Later in the game, the MR runes save your ass against incidental AoE damage you're taking, stuff like TF wild cards, corki missiles. You run offensive runes in marks/quints because that's where offensive runes are equal or better than defensive ones but seals/glyphs are more slot efficient defensively and thus make more sense to use
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On October 15 2012 04:32 Lmui wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 02:59 Djin)ftw( wrote:
I have another question: I've seen several people now who go pure +AD. 21 or so you get with runes alone, +masteries (havoc etc). Now I always go 21-9-0 with armor and MR runes, but I wonder if that is a mistake. As the ranged adc, shouldnt you try to maximize your dmg? Glass cannon ftw? Harass is much stronger, last hit is easier etc.. You only do damage while you're alive. If you run pure AD in runes with no armour and run up against a caitlyn, for example, you're going to be basing 4 minutes into the game or dead. Later in the game, the MR runes save your ass against incidental AoE damage you're taking, stuff like TF wild cards, corki missiles. You run offensive runes in marks/quints because that's where offensive runes are equal or better than defensive ones but seals/glyphs are more slot efficient defensively and thus make more sense to use
You mean cait outranges sivir so I need armor to withstand dat harass? Ok but what if you are cait then? Wouldn't an all dmg build make much more sense then? The runes are only good for the early/mid game anyway, once you get GA I dont think it matters if you have 120 armor or 107.
Right now I would say an allin dmg build into harass into outfarm seems to be much better than a hybrid ArP/Arm/Mr build. I'll test this once I get another adc. Atm I only got ashe and sivir t.t
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On October 15 2012 05:39 Djin)ftw( wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 04:32 Lmui wrote:On October 15 2012 02:59 Djin)ftw( wrote:
I have another question: I've seen several people now who go pure +AD. 21 or so you get with runes alone, +masteries (havoc etc). Now I always go 21-9-0 with armor and MR runes, but I wonder if that is a mistake. As the ranged adc, shouldnt you try to maximize your dmg? Glass cannon ftw? Harass is much stronger, last hit is easier etc.. You only do damage while you're alive. If you run pure AD in runes with no armour and run up against a caitlyn, for example, you're going to be basing 4 minutes into the game or dead. Later in the game, the MR runes save your ass against incidental AoE damage you're taking, stuff like TF wild cards, corki missiles. You run offensive runes in marks/quints because that's where offensive runes are equal or better than defensive ones but seals/glyphs are more slot efficient defensively and thus make more sense to use You mean cait outranges sivir so I need armor to withstand dat harass? Ok but what if you are cait then? Wouldn't an all dmg build make much more sense then? The runes are only good for the early/mid game anyway, once you get GA I dont think it matters if you have 120 armor or 107. Right now I would say an allin dmg build into harass into outfarm seems to be much better than a hybrid ArP/Arm/Mr build. I'll test this once I get another adc. Atm I only got ashe and sivir t.t
By your logic, why bother running the full AD runes then? After you IE, what's the difference between 200 AD and 205 AD?
AD yellow and blue are inefficient runes while defensive runes are very efficient. Moreover, when you are at 30 MR for most of midgame since you are buying stuff like Zeal and not Null Magic, the extra 12 MR is a 30% bonus to your eHP from magic damage. That's worth a lot more than the 5% bonus you're going to get lvl 1 running AD blues.
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On October 15 2012 06:08 xes wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 05:39 Djin)ftw( wrote:On October 15 2012 04:32 Lmui wrote:On October 15 2012 02:59 Djin)ftw( wrote:
I have another question: I've seen several people now who go pure +AD. 21 or so you get with runes alone, +masteries (havoc etc). Now I always go 21-9-0 with armor and MR runes, but I wonder if that is a mistake. As the ranged adc, shouldnt you try to maximize your dmg? Glass cannon ftw? Harass is much stronger, last hit is easier etc.. You only do damage while you're alive. If you run pure AD in runes with no armour and run up against a caitlyn, for example, you're going to be basing 4 minutes into the game or dead. Later in the game, the MR runes save your ass against incidental AoE damage you're taking, stuff like TF wild cards, corki missiles. You run offensive runes in marks/quints because that's where offensive runes are equal or better than defensive ones but seals/glyphs are more slot efficient defensively and thus make more sense to use You mean cait outranges sivir so I need armor to withstand dat harass? Ok but what if you are cait then? Wouldn't an all dmg build make much more sense then? The runes are only good for the early/mid game anyway, once you get GA I dont think it matters if you have 120 armor or 107. Right now I would say an allin dmg build into harass into outfarm seems to be much better than a hybrid ArP/Arm/Mr build. I'll test this once I get another adc. Atm I only got ashe and sivir t.t By your logic, why bother running the full AD runes then? After you IE, what's the difference between 200 AD and 205 AD? AD yellow and blue are inefficient runes while defensive runes are very efficient. Moreover, when you are at 30 MR for most of midgame since you are buying stuff like Zeal and not Null Magic, the extra 12 MR is a 30% bonus to your eHP from magic damage. That's worth a lot more than the 5% bonus you're going to get lvl 1 running AD blues.
Hm, but that's what I want to know. With Sivir you got 59 base dmg, which makes it very hard for me to lasthit properly. I cant even one-hit ranged creeps after a tower shot. So while I certainly need to step up my game, I could still a) replace ArP with AD runes (which I dont want to do) OR b) replace armor/mr runes with AD.
And given that I just played against an ezreal who went full ad and poked me like there was no tomorrow (with ~90 dmg), I really dont know how to counter that given the shitty range and low mana pool.
So you all think that sacrificing a bit sustainability for 5 to 10 dmg is not worth it? hm mh hm
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Run all AD marks/quints if you need to or at least AD quints + arpen marks. Sivir's insane scaling on her Q off of AD means that you aren't sacrificing much of anything early game by running AD on marks/quints and you'll have a much easier time last hitting minions. With the good use of sivir's W, you can essentially get one autoattack on every minion under tower and easily get the second one off as the tower shoots if you're running arpen, practice a bit more and it should become easy for you to last hit under tower.
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how do you play against graves?
I think I was sivir/soraka vs graves/nunu.
I found that graves just outdamages me (probably also because of bloodboil) and even if I spellshield his buckshot and land my q (sorta hard with his dash), he's tanky enough that it makes it not worthwhile to trade, however he can easily get up to me with dash/bloodboil.
Normally when I play sivir it's pretty much trade all day with q/w and as long as I get a good q off I'll usually win the trade, but graves so tanky.
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On October 31 2012 00:54 King K. Rool wrote:
how do you play against graves?
I think I was sivir/soraka vs graves/nunu.
I found that graves just outdamages me (probably also because of bloodboil) and even if I spellshield his buckshot and land my q (sorta hard with his dash), he's tanky enough that it makes it not worthwhile to trade, however he can easily get up to me with dash/bloodboil.
Normally when I play sivir it's pretty much trade all day with q/w and as long as I get a good q off I'll usually win the trade, but graves so tanky.
Push the wave hard starting from lvl 1, and use your q all day long with the mana bonus from soraka to harass graves whenever he goes for a last hit.
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On October 15 2012 06:08 xes wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 05:39 Djin)ftw( wrote:On October 15 2012 04:32 Lmui wrote:On October 15 2012 02:59 Djin)ftw( wrote:
I have another question: I've seen several people now who go pure +AD. 21 or so you get with runes alone, +masteries (havoc etc). Now I always go 21-9-0 with armor and MR runes, but I wonder if that is a mistake. As the ranged adc, shouldnt you try to maximize your dmg? Glass cannon ftw? Harass is much stronger, last hit is easier etc.. You only do damage while you're alive. If you run pure AD in runes with no armour and run up against a caitlyn, for example, you're going to be basing 4 minutes into the game or dead. Later in the game, the MR runes save your ass against incidental AoE damage you're taking, stuff like TF wild cards, corki missiles. You run offensive runes in marks/quints because that's where offensive runes are equal or better than defensive ones but seals/glyphs are more slot efficient defensively and thus make more sense to use You mean cait outranges sivir so I need armor to withstand dat harass? Ok but what if you are cait then? Wouldn't an all dmg build make much more sense then? The runes are only good for the early/mid game anyway, once you get GA I dont think it matters if you have 120 armor or 107. Right now I would say an allin dmg build into harass into outfarm seems to be much better than a hybrid ArP/Arm/Mr build. I'll test this once I get another adc. Atm I only got ashe and sivir t.t By your logic, why bother running the full AD runes then? After you IE, what's the difference between 200 AD and 205 AD? AD yellow and blue are inefficient runes while defensive runes are very efficient. Moreover, when you are at 30 MR for most of midgame since you are buying stuff like Zeal and not Null Magic , the extra 12 MR is a 30% bonus to your eHP from magic damage. That's worth a lot more than the 5% bonus you're going to get lvl 1 running AD blues.
That's not how MR works. 12 MR is 12% of your max HP as additional EHP from magic damage (assuming your MR is not getting penetrated all the way to 0.)
Against a midgame AP carry this probably means you have 12 MR instead of 1 MR (sorc shoes+MPen runes/masteries), and thus have ~+150 EHP from magic damage.
However... AD yellows and blues give you shit all. 6AD between the two of them? But you're complaining about not having enough AD to last hit minions under tower (as sivir? O.O what are you doing under your tower? nvm that's not important right now.) while running ArPen runes? The reason everyone started running flat AD is because even getting a few additional creeps from +15 AD outweighs a couple points of damage on the opposing champ during trades.
AD runes on sivir will let you push much harder while giving almost the same damage when hitting the opposing champs. (within 1-3 damage pre-6)
13 armor and 12 MR is just so much more efficient than +4 AD (instead of 13 armor... you're taking ~8 more damage from the opposing champ in order to do 3.5 more base damage) and +2 AD (instead of 12 MR, which protects you from getting bursted by an AP or jungle gank, or from Leona/Taric/Corki magic damage when fighting)
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Can't believe we're having a discussion on if 6AD is worth it for 18 runes. No, it is not.
Anyway, AD quints are more efficient than Armor Pen quints. (Each AD quint is worth 2.4x an AD mark, while an ArP quint is only worth 2.0x an ArP mark.) There's a reason every AD has used AD quints even in season 1.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
any tournament game vods for this lol version of luna?
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On October 15 2012 05:39 Djin)ftw( wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 04:32 Lmui wrote:On October 15 2012 02:59 Djin)ftw( wrote:
I have another question: I've seen several people now who go pure +AD. 21 or so you get with runes alone, +masteries (havoc etc). Now I always go 21-9-0 with armor and MR runes, but I wonder if that is a mistake. As the ranged adc, shouldnt you try to maximize your dmg? Glass cannon ftw? Harass is much stronger, last hit is easier etc.. You only do damage while you're alive. If you run pure AD in runes with no armour and run up against a caitlyn, for example, you're going to be basing 4 minutes into the game or dead. Later in the game, the MR runes save your ass against incidental AoE damage you're taking, stuff like TF wild cards, corki missiles. You run offensive runes in marks/quints because that's where offensive runes are equal or better than defensive ones but seals/glyphs are more slot efficient defensively and thus make more sense to use You mean cait outranges sivir so I need armor to withstand dat harass? Ok but what if you are cait then? Wouldn't an all dmg build make much more sense then? The runes are only good for the early/mid game anyway, once you get GA I dont think it matters if you have 120 armor or 107. Right now I would say an allin dmg build into harass into outfarm seems to be much better than a hybrid ArP/Arm/Mr build. I'll test this once I get another adc. Atm I only got ashe and sivir t.t
I have an all damage page for cait, im not rly a fan of it. The damage difference is just so small.. rather run the flat armors and mres/lvl
also there are times where u get in spots where to get a kill u do have to take damage
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
If you don't come to lane with armor, essentially any trade is disadvantageous for you. Hell, even the support's autos are gonna hurt a lot more than they should, and even though you have 6 more AD or whatnot, is it worth taking more damage from minions and enemy autos and physical spells?
Absolutely not. You engage early on, a lot of time you'll draw minion aggro. Those fuckers hurt. And especially since your range is like what 500 or 525, people will get free shots on you all day and you'll just cry without armor yellows to get you out of laning phase.
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Anyone tried the new s3 items on her? I didn't find any new stuff useful. I still go BT, IE, LW, PD.
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On October 31 2012 00:54 King K. Rool wrote:
how do you play against graves?
I think I was sivir/soraka vs graves/nunu.
I found that graves just outdamages me (probably also because of bloodboil) and even if I spellshield his buckshot and land my q (sorta hard with his dash), he's tanky enough that it makes it not worthwhile to trade, however he can easily get up to me with dash/bloodboil.
Normally when I play sivir it's pretty much trade all day with q/w and as long as I get a good q off I'll usually win the trade, but graves so tanky.
Isn't Sivir sort of a counterpick against Graves? Sivir's damage is pretty broken and her range issue is not as severe against Graves.
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On December 03 2012 02:53 oneofthem wrote:
any tournament game vods for this lol version of luna?
if only sivir can walk around people with aghanim'ed ulti
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EPT
