EPT[Champion] Sivir - Page 11
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Dark_Chill
Canada3353 Posts
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Lmui
Canada6208 Posts
On May 11 2012 08:13 Dark_Chill wrote: What do you guys think of Sivir with Ms quints? It seems to make sense since it works well with her passive, as well as give her the extra ms she needs because of a lack of an escape. It works with her ult as well, and kiting is better in general. If you're playing her correctly, it's completely unnecessary. Sivir's base movement speed is 310, already as high as AD carries go. Sure you move slightly faster but with sivir, the extra damage on a combo/Q harass is just too good. Her passive is 50ms, plenty for either disengaging from a trade or following up on a trade. If they decide to run and let you get free shots off, you've won the trade. If they let you continue your combo and land Q/W, you've won the trade. movespeed just gets you out of situations which you shouldn't be in in the first place, especially since Sivir's ultimate+passive results in a huge amount of mobility, a good deal more than what's provided by MS quints. | ||
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Djin)ftw(
Germany3357 Posts
The problem is, she is so slow and has no escape like corki or ezreal. While the spell shield is nice and might help you escape by blocking a disable I dont think its as good as corkis e f.e. So I'm not sure. Its probably depending on the support as well so I'm kinda lost. Ignite seems to be a bad idea. Heal/Surge/Ghost/Cleanse/teleport/clarity all seem to be beneficial in certain ways (heal = heal, surge = dps, Ghost = escape, cleanse = dps/escape, teleport = farming, clarity = spam dat q/w) Also what support do you prefer when playing sivir? Soraka is kinda nice because of heal/mana replenish, but I think she is weak overall compared to Taric | ||
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ThE)ShoWTimE
Italy213 Posts
Against lanes or matchups without particular cc i might run heal or ignite, depens on my support... As support choice with Sivir, of course Soraka is the best one for mana regen and heal+armor, but it's kinda squishy if you go vs blitz/alistar/leona/taric, so expect to lose straight engagements, you should rely on your harass and poke them, make them weaker and push a lot while farming, i think that, as Sivir, you have to make your opponent leave lane early so you get a needed advantage in term of DPS even without kills, that is with Soraka support, so you can spam spells without bothering of mana depletion. Other supports that work well imo, i'd say Taric/Ali for trades and sustain, Nunu is amazing too with his W and slow, really blends well with Sivir kit, i wouldn't really pick Blitz as a good support with Sivir, since she doesn't really have any explosive burst like Graves on which you can capitalyze on grabs, for the same reason Leona is not particularly effective aswell, but i like her a bit more, still a ton of CC + your ult is almost a certain kill, and she can threaten the lane while you harass and farm. Janna is meh, Lulu is okayish.. Take my words as a grain of salt, that's how i play her so other people might not agree with me. Another note on carries in general, this "escape" thing in my opinion is getting too out of hand, of course having and escape skill is very useful, but i think you should force yourself into playing champs that don't really have it (Ashe for istance) so you get really good at positioning in fights and lanes, and then when you pick champs that even have escapes you become even deadlier because you already know how to position and use the escape just in case.. I think the best skill of a carry, after last hitting is positioning in a team fight properly, having an escape make you a lot sloppier on that part. | ||
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Ente
Germany1795 Posts
 Summoner spells: Ignite/Flash every single game. I guess you could use Cleanse in case you really need it (for example amumu/Sona/Ashe etc etc) but if you want Cleanse other Ads are probably better. Teleport.... I think you think of that because of CLG.nas 3 TP promote style but to quote Chauster: the strategy resolves around having 3 TPs NOT having Sivir (Sivir is ok for that but personally I would probably prefer Caitlyn due to being better for splitpushing/counter initiate) Teleport might be an okay thing for premade but not Solo q. Ghost: just no you already have enough MS Clarity: serious? Heal in my opinion is too nerfed and Ignite too dominant on botlane so it gets halved pretty much anyway + heals not enough take Cleanse over Heal 90% of the games. With Sivir you want to kill stuff. You have killing potential over the whole laning phase (especially level 2 you have the ability to burst someone at least 60% of their hp) While Soraka and Nunu might be okayish with Sivir they are not really great and Sivir is not the best pick you might just pick Graves/soraka and be better at it or Kogmaw/Nunu or sth like this. As I said before with Sivir you want to fight early so you want supports who are great at that: Taric Leona (Blitz I hate blitz and hes not really that strong early on but if you like that champ you can pick him) even Janna is in my opinion really good with Sivir due to you being able to chase well and you have the burst time with the shield up + slow to set up for Sivir burst. Sivir cant be just reduced to the laning phase you want to have a good team for her (obviously not really doable in solo q) you want champions which can go in and kill stuff + benefit from her ulitmate some examples: Nocturne Irelia Skarner (especially if combined with Jayce beastly) what I started really liking is Rengar jungle and if hes close to the target with invisibility you use your ult as Sivir and just rush them down (laning phase) Hope that helps a bit if you have other questions just ask Edit: as the guy over me said Alistar forgot him hes mostly banned anyway :p edit2: since she doesn't really have any explosive burst like Graves on which you can capitalyze on grabs, Wth? Sivir outbursts Graves really hard Sivir is the highest dmg early game ad carry. | ||
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ThE)ShoWTimE
Italy213 Posts
I didn't thought about Janna as a good support, instead it makes a lot of sense, with her passive giving you even more mov speed and her q and slow + shield, amazing kiting, indeed. do you rush BT or go for IE 1st? | ||
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Ente
Germany1795 Posts
do you rush BT or go for IE 1st? that question my answer is : both to elaborate that more:It really depends on the money and what you want to do with your money. In premade Sivir is often taken for 2v1 situations and there you most of the time want a BT to be able to push better/ you have in general lower money anyway. If I cant buy a BF sword when I back first I might go for the pickaxe (I sometimes, rarely but it happens, go for Brutalizer if I want lane domination and cant buy a BF sword AD amorpen and cdr great for Sivir) Yes Lategame Sivir falls off (lowish dmg and 500 range) but there is nothing you can do about that you have to utilize Sivirs strength and not somehow even her weakness out. If you want sth strong lategame just dont pick Sivir and pick Trist kog or sth which is beastly lategame. | ||
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CeriseCherries
6170 Posts
On September 16 2012 03:25 ThE)ShoWTimE wrote: Yes early game i agree, but i think later on she kinda falls off, might just be my impression tho, anyway i'm 100% sure you are more used to Sivir than me as i see you are very high elo, so i will surely agree with everything you say :D i still have much to learn so i thank you too for you post. I didn't thought about Janna as a good support, instead it makes a lot of sense, with her passive giving you even more mov speed and her q and slow + shield, amazing kiting, indeed. do you rush BT or go for IE 1st? im no expert but id probably guess BT. your w and q scale well off pure AD. on the other hand IE will get you more dmg off autos, but bt will make your burst big and you can try and grab more early game kills | ||
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Djin)ftw(
Germany3357 Posts
On September 16 2012 03:25 ThE)ShoWTimE wrote: do you rush BT or go for IE 1st? Oh yeah I forgot that. Usually I see ad carries go for IE and PD. Some (corki/ezreal) go for TF first. With sivir I dont know, I used to go for TF first because of slow/sustainability/overall good item. But I got flamed hard for it. On September 16 2012 03:12 Ente wrote: Summoner spells: Ignite/Flash every single game. I guess you could use Cleanse in case you really need it (for example amumu/Sona/Ashe etc etc) but if you want Cleanse other Ads are probably better. Teleport.... I think you think of that because of CLG.nas 3 TP promote style but to quote Chauster: the strategy resolves around having 3 TPs NOT having Sivir (Sivir is ok for that but personally I would probably prefer Caitlyn due to being better for splitpushing/counter initiate) Actually I just thought (and read somewhere) that she is a strong farmer/pusher and that TP might be good idea. I never tried it though. ith Sivir you want to kill stuff. You have killing potential over the whole laning phase (especially level 2 you have the ability to burst someone at least 60% of their hp) So I assume you skill q w instead of q e like i do and then go for dat harass? Interesting. While Soraka and Nunu might be okayish with Sivir they are not really great and Sivir is not the best pick you might just pick Graves/soraka and be better at it or Kogmaw/Nunu or sth like this. As I said before with Sivir you want to fight early so you want supports who are great at that: Taric Leona (Blitz I hate blitz and hes not really that strong early on but if you like that champ you can pick him) even Janna is in my opinion really good with Sivir due to you being able to chase well and you have the burst time with the shield up + slow to set up for Sivir burst. Sivir cant be just reduced to the laning phase you want to have a good team for her (obviously not really doable in solo q) you want champions which can go in and kill stuff + benefit from her ulitmate some examples: Nocturne Irelia Skarner (especially if combined with Jayce beastly) what I started really liking is Rengar jungle and if hes close to the target with invisibility you use your ult as Sivir and just rush them down (laning phase) Thanks, that's really helping me.  | ||
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Ente
Germany1795 Posts
So I assume you skill q w instead of q e like i do and then go for dat harass? Interesting. In most cases yes most not every! If I go Q - E I usually go Q - E - W for the extra burst (sometimes I also go Q - W - E) it really depends if you need the spellshield or not and how agressive you want to be. Actually I just thought (and read somewhere) that she is a strong farmer/pusher and that TP might be good idea. I never tried it though. Shes okayish but you dont really want to afk farm with her you want to fight prechange Sivir was really really really good lategmae the new one is not that good. Oh yeah I forgot that. Usually I see ad carries go for IE and PD. Some (corki/ezreal) go for TF first. With sivir I dont know, I used to go for TF first because of slow/sustainability/overall good item. But I got flamed hard for it. Yeah Trinity is not that great for Sivir first (thinking of it sometimes lategame when I dont care about money and can just throw it in instead of PD or sth but not really sure yet) Sivir has too high cooldowns for trinity to be that great and she needs AD for her skills to do significant amounts of damage. im no expert but id probably guess BT. your w and q scale well off pure AD. on the other hand IE will get you more dmg off autos, but bt will make your burst big and you can try and grab more early game kills The AD difference from BT to IE is not significant enough 15 dmg from a fullstacked BT to IE. IE is always always on every single champion more damage then BT (everything is more dmg then BT for that matter including PD / LW ) you get BT because its cheaper and for the lifesteal but the build up is sometimes too hard (you cant always safe 1650 gold for the BF sword) btw if I go IE first (which I actually do in most cases) I often get executioners calling now because if you get IE first your BT will only be purchased really late and probably as your last item so a cheap/not itemslot costing lifesteal item is quite nice. And 900g for 8% lifesteal 15% crit the extra dmg passive and the -heal active is quite nice. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
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Ente
Germany1795 Posts
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arb
Noobville17920 Posts
On September 16 2012 04:08 Alaric wrote: You should also consider that you can get BT for 3k, which is about BFS + pickaxe + vamp scepter (you'll often get a vamp even when going IE first), in which case you're starting at 60 AD versus 70, and going up from last hitting. At this point you're better at dueling and your burst is higher, and in those cases where I dominate my lane or get fed early I tend to prefer BT because I know I'll stack it easily (laning not ended yet) while using its good cost-efficiency and sustain to outharass, outsustain or even straight up duel the opposing AD and ride my advantage. You can also get that BT stacked before IE, and then you simply kill towers faster with your ult, which is nice if (still ssuming you built it because you were ahead) helps you push your advantage when you want to take all the outer turrets to get a big gold lead. Idk i feel like BT is needed on your shorter range ADC, like vayne graves, and in this case sivir. you're going to be close so the extra lifesteal def helps out alot | ||
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Ente
Germany1795 Posts
Idk i feel like BT is needed on your shorter range ADC, like vayne graves, and in this case sivir. you're going to be close so the extra lifesteal def helps out alot I can guarantee you its not needed its not bad I sometimes go BT on Sivir first aswell but I do not always go BT first on vayne graves and Sivir. Just imagine: you are behind in the game the laning phase is already over none of your team is fed/you have a low dmg team (for example malph top mao jungle or sth) You will need the straight up damage which you do not have with BT but you might have it with IE (besides IE having more dmg then BT anyway but later items will be even more delayed if you go BT) So yes BT is a nice item on all of them and no you should not "brainlessly" go in a game and say: I will go BT no matter what (you should not do that with IE either) | ||
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arb
Noobville17920 Posts
On September 16 2012 07:04 Ente wrote: I can guarantee you its not needed its not bad I sometimes go BT on Sivir first aswell but I do not always go BT first on vayne graves and Sivir. Just imagine: you are behind in the game the laning phase is already over none of your team is fed/you have a low dmg team (for example malph top mao jungle or sth) You will need the straight up damage which you do not have with BT but you might have it with IE (besides IE having more dmg then BT anyway but later items will be even more delayed if you go BT) So yes BT is a nice item on all of them and no you should not "brainlessly" go in a game and say: I will go BT no matter what (you should not do that with IE either) It's not really a brainless choice, theres some games where i'll go IE(im farming really well or we're shitting on botlane pretty hard or something) but generally if my teams doing semi decent, we dont need an asston of damage right away, i'll almost always got BT. I'd say roughly 7/10 games i'll build BT first and the other 3 will be IE(unless on corki or ez or something) | ||
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ThE)ShoWTimE
Italy213 Posts
IE just does much more damage and the crit strike is just too good to pass up, you simply melt people so fast with it, also after it getting PD just makes you total beast with every ADC, instead if you can't charge BT properly and then get PD you will just be outclassed 1v1 vs someone who has IE and PD (you are already losing badly anyway if you're in this situation).. Not only this, but lately i've been doing IE -> PD into an early GA if i feel i'm winning or i am really ahead, pretty much closes the game since you already do tons of dmg and you get this huge armor and resurrection, in teamfights is awesome especially as Graves, because of your passive, you simply do not die. So, in a even game or in a game where you can atleast get a couple of kills in laning phase, i always go for IE, if i am behind BT, but i know that going BT is not really bringing me back into a game easely, meanwhile even if you are behind and can somewhat get that IE you might do something for your team straight away in a team fight. | ||
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Ente
Germany1795 Posts
It's not really a brainless choice, theres some games where i'll go IE(im farming really well or we're shitting on botlane pretty hard or something) That is actually in general the wrong choice When you shit on your opponent you want to shit on them even harder and thats easier done with a BT in addition to that when you farm good/shit on your opponent you get your items early on and you can go BT/PD by ~22 minutes which is a decent time IE is about 20% more dmg then a BT that actually doesnt change too much with additional items IE is always the highest damaging item out of the whole AD carry itembuild (yes I think there is no amount of armor that LW surpasses IE) BT on the other hand is a half offensive half defensive item which you can build if you dont full dmg but want a bit dmg and a bit survivability for example if you are insanly far ahead and your only problem is you possibly dieing to harrass or sth but your problem is not bruisers which are unkillable. we dont need an asston of damage right away, i'll almost always got BT. The thing is not the right away: What do you do if you get IE? you will follow up with PD/definsive item like GA QSS most likely after that you get LW so you have your big dmg items IE PD really fast. What do you do with BT you usually get the PD second for the AS/MS really good item but then? if you get a defensive item you wont really do damage if you go LW your dmg is not really high either because you have no IE. So by going BT first you will delay your IE to atleast 30 minutes if you would go straight BT -> PD -> IE and if you would get defensive items/possibly Last whisper (I do not recommend that) you will delay your IE post 35 minutes and you really might lack damage. TLDR: if you are far ahead /have other dmg sources like Jax get BT if you are behind/are the only dmg source in your team get IE | ||
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arb
Noobville17920 Posts
On September 16 2012 07:35 Ente wrote: That is actually in general the wrong choice When you shit on your opponent you want to shit on them even harder and thats easier done with a BT in addition to that when you farm good/shit on your opponent you get your items early on and you can go BT/PD by ~22 minutes which is a decent time IE is about 20% more dmg then a BT that actually doesnt change too much with additional items IE is always the highest damaging item out of the whole AD carry itembuild (yes I think there is no amount of armor that LW surpasses IE) BT on the other hand is a half offensive half defensive item which you can build if you dont full dmg but want a bit dmg and a bit survivability for example if you are insanly far ahead and your only problem is you possibly dieing to harrass or sth but your problem is not bruisers which are unkillable. The thing is not the right away: What do you do if you get IE? you will follow up with PD/definsive item like GA QSS most likely after that you get LW so you have your big dmg items IE PD really fast. What do you do with BT you usually get the PD second for the AS/MS really good item but then? if you get a defensive item you wont really do damage if you go LW your dmg is not really high either because you have no IE. So by going BT first you will delay your IE to atleast 30 minutes if you would go straight BT -> PD -> IE and if you would get defensive items/possibly Last whisper (I do not recommend that) you will delay your IE post 35 minutes and you really might lack damage. TLDR: if you are far ahead /have other dmg sources like Jax get BT if you are behind/are the only dmg source in your team get IE I dunno i just really like BT in general, i always figured if youre shitting on them and can get it hella early, then grab IE and shit on them some more. I guess i'll have to experiment with more IE openings it seems. | ||
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Djin)ftw(
Germany3357 Posts
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Lmui
Canada6208 Posts
On October 15 2012 02:59 Djin)ftw( wrote: I have another question: I've seen several people now who go pure +AD. 21 or so you get with runes alone, +masteries (havoc etc). Now I always go 21-9-0 with armor and MR runes, but I wonder if that is a mistake. As the ranged adc, shouldnt you try to maximize your dmg? Glass cannon ftw? Harass is much stronger, last hit is easier etc.. You only do damage while you're alive. If you run pure AD in runes with no armour and run up against a caitlyn, for example, you're going to be basing 4 minutes into the game or dead. Later in the game, the MR runes save your ass against incidental AoE damage you're taking, stuff like TF wild cards, corki missiles. You run offensive runes in marks/quints because that's where offensive runes are equal or better than defensive ones but seals/glyphs are more slot efficient defensively and thus make more sense to use | ||
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