EPTMore likely they'll push the poking/map control role they want for it until they're happy, Goliath 2.0 boosters be damned.
Fixing the Cyclone - Page 3
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Athenau
570 Posts
More likely they'll push the poking/map control role they want for it until they're happy, Goliath 2.0 boosters be damned. | ||
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AlphaAeffchen
110 Posts
David Kim said that it may be possible thet the unit gets removed if it doesnt work! Also it can be possible that we get the Goliath back or the cyclone will be the Goliath 2.0. | ||
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Athenau
570 Posts
As it happens, I agree with the direction they're taking it. Vulture 2.0 is much more interesting than Goliath 2.0. If Terrans have a problem with mass air, Blizzard should fix that at the source rather than tacking on more bandaid solutions. | ||
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ElMeanYo
United States1032 Posts
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jinjin5000
United States1467 Posts
I feel like my point will stand out even more now that it is 150/150 120hp unit with 3 population, with no "power of numbers" to ward off the damage drop off. Early game cyclone may be absurd but late game it will quickly drop off. All this patch did was make terran early-mid game stronger while the lategame got weakened more. | ||
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Athenau
570 Posts
Now does 57.1 DPS over 14 seconds instead of 48.7 dps over 13 seconds, but with 120 hp instead of 160hp Nit, it was 42.8 dps before, not 48.7 (lock-on duration has always been 14 real-time seconds). | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1467 Posts
On October 17 2015 06:46 Athenau wrote: Nit, it was 42.8 dps before, not 48.7 (lock-on duration has always been 14 real-time seconds). EDIT: Whoops yea it was 42.8 dps before. I mistyped it. Little fumbling there. I mean rest of my posts points to 42.8 dps and thats what I had in mind entire time :p | ||
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Athenau
570 Posts
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jinjin5000
United States1467 Posts
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Athenau
570 Posts
With the current stats will always be a specialist unit to poke and snipe buildings/static d/high value units. | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1467 Posts
On October 19 2015 06:42 Athenau wrote: Can't mass them in the late game (maybe you can go Cyclone/Mine in mid though). Will never be a massable unit, and shouldn't be IMO. With the current stats will always be a specialist unit to poke and snipe buildings/static d/high value units. Yea it will be- but the hole left void on mech AA role is still there and mech playstyle didn't really need that kind of unit as much as it needs G2A factory role | ||
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Athenau
570 Posts
Yea it will be- but the hole left void on mech AA role is still there and mech playstyle didn't really need that kind of unit as much as it needs G2A factory role Like I've said before, that's due to the strength of mass air compositions (mostly just mass carriers and BL/Viper, though liberators might be problematic as well). Factory G2A isn't an interesting role. Goliaths were boring in BW and will be even more boring with SC2's perfect pathing. They will forever be units that you add to your deathball for AA and nothing else. Furthermore, there are already _two_ AA units in the starport. Adding one to the factory just makes the overlapping unit "problem" worse (though I suspect the people promulgating this argument are making it out convenience, rather than any real conviction). So in conclusion, I see three ways around this problem: 1. Best: Nerf mass air directly. Best, because it fixes the problem without introducing more bandaids. 2. Worse: Buff existing starport tech to handle the problem (most likely a speed or range buff to vikings, possibly via upgrade). This is worse, because it introduces more power creep, but at least it adds utility to existing units rather than making them obsolete. 3. Worst: Cyclone as Goliath 2.0. This is the worst option, because not only does it invalidate existing Terran units, it also comes at the cost of a new unit doing something interesting. | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2655 Posts
On October 19 2015 07:42 Athenau wrote: Like I've said before, that's due to the strength of mass air compositions (mostly just mass carriers and BL/Viper, though liberators might be problematic as well). Factory G2A isn't an interesting role. Goliaths were boring in BW and will be even more boring with SC2's perfect pathing. They will forever be units that you add to your deathball for AA and nothing else. Furthermore, there are already _two_ AA units in the starport. Adding one to the factory just makes the overlapping unit "problem" worse (though I suspect the people promulgating this argument are making it out convenience, rather than any real conviction). So in conclusion, I see three ways around this problem: 1. Best: Nerf mass air directly. Best, because it fixes the problem without introducing more bandaids. 2. Worse: Buff existing starport tech to handle the problem (most likely a speed or range buff to vikings, possibly via upgrade). This is worse, because it introduces more power creep, but at least it adds utility to existing units rather than making them obsolete. 3. Worst: Cyclone as Goliath 2.0. This is the worst option, because not only does it invalidate existing Terran units, it also comes at the cost of a new unit doing something interesting. Mass air vs mass air is a problem, the fact that the only answer to air from your enemy is to go air yourself makes it so its just a race for air, seeing terrans mass liberators and protoss rush for carriers is not interesting gameplay it just promotes turtle. And Factory NEEDS AA, and not just AA for the sake of AA, it needs a mobile OK somewhat cheap AA, the fact that if your enemy goes air you need to build 3 starports and starting massing liberators its just bad fucking gameplay, not mention that starport units AREN'T a core part of mech, mech is and has always been Factory units, air units should be support, otherwise we end up with HotS like play where they simple go mid-game with some tanks and thors and then is straight to air. | ||
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Athenau
570 Posts
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jinjin5000
United States1467 Posts
On October 19 2015 09:11 Athenau wrote: The obvious solution is to make mass air unviable, so that air units remain supplements to ground armies. You do that by either nerfing air (preferable) or making specialist AA units strong enough to work without them forming the bulk of your army. Viking AA doesn't turn into mass air vs mass air if you don't need to get 100 supply of vikings to deal with 100 supply of carriers. Well problem stems both from strength of Air play as well as weakness of A2G of general sc2 units. I'd prefer if they tried to bring up G2A into level before they decide to do with air play. Air should definitely be weaker but the lesser glass cannon units did provide some kind of exciting games. G2A seems more in priority atm as such sweeping change should have been done earlier in beta really. Anyway, I've been playing a lot with the new cyclone, and it is definitely very strong midgame. But it deals with lategame air even worse as it takes far less shots to kill them and they stll expose themselves to fire when they engage, especially against broodlords and carriers. | ||
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Athenau
570 Posts
For vipers, move parasitic bomb to the infestor for a lower cost (75 or 100 energy). Now you can actually zone them out on the ground. Liberators aren't really the same sort of mass-air deathball, but they could certainly use a tech-lab requirement + no extra vision in siege mode. The Viking could use a minor buff, like 1 base armor (it is an armored unit), which doesn't change most unit interactions, but does result in it taking ~20% less damage from interceptors. If we must have a factory G2A unit, just repurpose the Thor since it's a boring unit already. Bring back the 250 mm cannons and give it reasonable base dps (48 damage, 10 range, 2 cooldown sounds like a good start). | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1467 Posts
I don't think blizzard plans to change the capital ships , not all at once though. And even with those nerfs, you still do need g2a solution to opponents air play, in this case mech. | ||
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Bryan-tan
12 Posts
the cyclone just costs too much and requires too much attention to be effective honestly. | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1467 Posts
It doesn't quite cut it. | ||
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HeroMystic
United States1217 Posts
Cyclone either needs better burst damage or it needs more HP to survive in big fights. As it is their usability is worse than the reaper. Alternatively they can just remove it and add the Goliath. | ||
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