Hi, I am a mech Terran player in LotV playing at masters level with 500+ games played and want to suggest few things to fix the cyclone as well as analyze it- having played with cyclones in almost every game I played
Over the past weeks, we have seen rather disapproving posts for Cyclone- It has been critisized that it doesn't really have a role in terran army nor is it made much in ladder games. But I still think Cyclone have its place in Terran arsenal.
Numerically speaking, Cyclone should be a great unit. With lock on, it has 21 dps vs ground and 17 dps vs air, and after the Mag-Field accelerator, it recieves 28.6dps vs ground (42.8 dps vs armored) and 25.7dps vs air (42.8dps vs armored). It is very fast, being at 4.72 speed, and can keep up with hellions at reasonable pace. It also has 1 base armor and reasonable 160hp. An all-rounder.
But what makes this unit so bad?
I've been playing around with cyclone in LotV since the launch, and used it in almost every game as my ground G2A role and also to force engagement with my mech army. So here are 4 glaring flaws of cyclone that I noticed.
1) Overlapping roles on ground Cyclone has great dp on ground- a characteristic shared by factory units. It is able to do outstanding 21dps off factory and 42.8dps vs armored after the cyclone upgrade.
However, it doesn't really deal with swarms well, with lockon each requiring a second or so of hang item before it locks on. Add with that on cooldown, and it makes a fairly unattractive unit to get as general add-on of your composition (unless you are specifically going for hellion/cyclone composition) - especially when there are better options, such as Thor and Siege tank- both of those that deal with ground fairly well..
Now, the Thor and Siege tank have crippling weakness in its mobility- which cyclone has. Which means its great to gain map control with but can't really be afforded to... Which brings to its second point.
2) Its enormous Cost Cyclone is unit with expensive 150/150 price tag. It means its a fairly vital unit that can't be afforded to be in mass production nor be thrown away at whim. For a unit that was created in thought of map control and some harass, it is a huge investment to get and can't be afforded to be lost.
Not only that, other factory units that do similar job aren't all that much more expensive and does the same job- Siege tanks are 25 gas cheaper and Thor is 50 gas more expensive and does better in direct combat. Why make a weaker unit when you can get more splash damage in siege tank and singular damage/meat shield in thor?
On top of that 150/150 hefty price tag, Cyclone gets that hefty 3 population cost. That means that you can't really make a lot of cyclone before maxing out and really inflates your numbers the amount of units a mech player could afford to have in field- even with existence of mule hammers and scv throwing away (which can't really be afforded in my experience in LotV but still). Why would you get it when Tanks do better against ground at just 3 supply and cost less, and Vikings do much, much better role for just 75 gas and 2 supply?
Cyclone is one heck of indisposable unit.
3) Its mediocre role as Anti-air Now here comes the major part of Cyclone: Factory Anti-Air.
David Kim was said to have Cyclone as a much longed for factory Anti-Air unit with additional functions. Combined with split mech upgrades on air and ground attack, Cyclone should finally dethrone the starport being required to provide Anti Air and allow mech to attack more freely as a ground composition.
But it doesn't do that despite the great numbers on its weapon. Surely 26/43 dps vs air must seal it? Why not?
Its becuase of its cost and it necessitating it to be exposed to enemy fire.
A) Attack Delay & Exposure First volleys are huge thing in Starcraft and Cyclone takes a good second to close into target, as well as it needing to come into 7 range to lock on. Combine with the unit being generally very boxy and needing a very big space to operate in its full potential, just makes viking a superior anti-air choice to have. The amount of DPS lost with the first shots can often determine the outcome of battle, and Cyclone lacks that punch. Also, with that lock on comes a critical weakness to cyclone. It exposes itself to majority of fire when it needs to target a unit for lock down (7 range). This problem combines with one below.
B) Number of Units Secondly, there just aren't enough numbers. 150/150 unit that requires 3 supply severely limits the endgame number of how many cyclones you can afford to have on field. That, combined with it needing to be exposed to enemy fire makes it prime target for enemy to pick off, and losing a few definitely hurts...exponentially almost. Each individual 160hp, 3 supply, 150/150 cyclone dramatically reduces the damage output for every cyclone that is defeated just makes it unfavorable to use.
Overall, the slower start-up, it needing to be relatively exposed to fire, and lack of numbers to protect against it being exposed hurts this unit a lot in main engagements.
Against units like Broodlords, Carriers, Battlecrsuiers and liberators where Cyclone would be primarily used against as AA, Being exposed to fire while dealing none is a crippling weakness to Cyclone.
Carriers/Battlecruisers/lberators have easy means to pick off single target (Carrier's DPS with interceptors and Yamato cannon, Liberator punishing ground units that come near) and Broodlord's 11.5 range pathing block with broodlings prevents cyclones from simply getting into 7 range to damage the broodlord. All while Cyclone needs to stand almost under the opposing unit to deal damage.
All these just points to bursty-damage Viking (with all that overkill) just a superior unit to use for anti-air.
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Ideally, I could see what Cyclones were designed for- Its an ideal mech support unit where it uses its versatility to complement mech army in AA, base raider role with hellion (with its mobility and it being great in lower number skirmishes), and force engagements to happen with lock-on while backing off to safety to safe siege fields of Siege tanks and liberators.
Obviously, lock-on is a big "wow" factor of the unit, but I simply can't really see this unit being balanced with such a spell. just the idea of lock on being able to kite a unit in enormous range needs a big downside to use such as its downtime, and I don't think Cyclone could be balanced to be a vital part of Terran arsenal with this as it provides too much room for "OPness" or uselessness.
I would like for it to be cheaper, more disposable factory unit that can compliment the hellion well on base raiding, and have its AA more streamlined and have it to be more "niche" like the other compatriots of factory are- instead of it being all-rounder as of now.
Here is what I suggest
Reduce its supply cost to 2
Reduce its big 150/150 cost to maybe match viking's in 150/75
Reduce its speed so its slightly slower or as fast as stalker
Remove Lock-on and give it mediocre ground damage,giving it flat damage
Give it long range Anti-Air attack that has low damage point
So...basically a SC2 Goliath without the goliath name...Sorry.
Thanks for reading my analysis and post your thoughts below!
I think this rather than making it a goliath it would make them a stalker with better AA, since goliath weren't neither fast nor had too much maneuverability, they simply had greath DPS and long AA range.
Reduce its big 150/150 cost to maybe match viking's in 150/75
Reduce its speed so its slightly slower or as fast as stalker
Remove Lock-on and give it mediocre ground damage,giving it flat damage
Give it long range Anti-Air attack that has low damage point
So...basically a SC2 Goliath without the goliath name...Sorry.
Thanks for reading my analysis and post your thoughts below!
Which basically what every single sane person has been asking for since the day 1 this unit was introduced. But unfortunately we know it will never happen.
You analysis is missing a key weakness of the autocast: when autocasted the targets are always split, thereby reducing the ability of the cyclone ball to reduce enemy unit counts during the duration of the fight.
Compare:
4 tanks see 8 stalkers, they all fire at the first wave and kill the first 4 instantly.
4 cyclones see 4 stalkers, each stalker locks onto a different target, takes full time to kill each stalker, zero stacking damage and early elimination of targets.
On October 15 2015 13:47 Dota_Lust wrote: You analysis is missing a key weakness of the autocast: when autocasted the targets are always split, thereby reducing the ability of the cyclone ball to reduce enemy unit counts during the duration of the fight.
Compare:
4 tanks see 8 stalkers, they all fire at the first wave and kill the first 4 instantly.
4 cyclones see 4 stalkers, each stalker locks onto a different target, takes full time to kill each stalker, zero stacking damage and early elimination of targets.
hmm I felt that I went over it with the delay between attacks. Usually people who use cyclone disable autocast and do it manually
On October 15 2015 13:47 Dota_Lust wrote: You analysis is missing a key weakness of the autocast: when autocasted the targets are always split, thereby reducing the ability of the cyclone ball to reduce enemy unit counts during the duration of the fight.
Compare:
4 tanks see 8 stalkers, they all fire at the first wave and kill the first 4 instantly.
4 cyclones see 4 stalkers, each stalker locks onto a different target, takes full time to kill each stalker, zero stacking damage and early elimination of targets.
hmm I felt that I went over it with the delay between attacks. Usually people who use cyclone disable autocast and do it manually
The split autocast is a big reason why its burst DPS is so miserably low (which you spelled out). It has this giant single target damage, but they never work together without mouse clicks, which is unbelievably frustrating.
Give it the high dps at the level of upgraded version, but make the anti-air attack an upgrade. That means 28.6dps vs ground (42.8 dps vs armored) only, but it'll be able to shoot air with 25.7dps vs air (42.8dps vs armored) after the upgrade.
make cyclone a lot bigger. make cyclone into a "wall" unit. make cyclone into a moving bunker that can block wide choke points_very low dps, very high hp. make so marines can go in it. add more positionality to game. also completely fixes mech (jk). this make anti-air strengthen cuz wall cyclone block units from getting under viking. all problems solved
On October 15 2015 14:44 TedCruz2016 wrote: Give it the high dps at the level of upgraded version, but make the anti-air attack an upgrade. That means 28.6dps vs ground (42.8 dps vs armored) only, but it'll be able to shoot air with 25.7dps vs air (42.8dps vs armored) after the upgrade.
While I still think it needs some adjusting (cost probably), I actually like it now with the speed buff. I've already found it to be much much more viable.
On October 15 2015 16:00 My_Fake_Plastic_Luv wrote: Yo just had a brilliant idea.
make cyclone a lot bigger. make cyclone into a "wall" unit. make cyclone into a moving bunker that can block wide choke points_very low dps, very high hp. make so marines can go in it. add more positionality to game. also completely fixes mech (jk). this make anti-air strengthen cuz wall cyclone block units from getting under viking. all problems solved
hmm I felt that I went over it with the delay between attacks. Usually people who use cyclone disable autocast and do it manually
How do you mechanically efficient turn autocast off? When you select groups with mixed turned on and off autocast cyclones the active one is always the turned off one. So if you always add new cyclones to your group you would have to hit alt+hotkey twice. This is unintuitive unefficent and often causes mistakes.
Ontopic: I actually think they could design this unit around lockon and I don't think it is actually a bad mechanic. My suggestion was to make it smaller, cheaper, less gas intensive, way lower dps, supply 2, cut the tech lab requirement and make it nearly as fast as a hellion. Give it a longer aa standard attack and make a way longer cool down for lockon. That way it would be a very cheap mobile sniper unit which always moves around your mech ball sniping key units off your opponent.
This would also solve the problem of overlapping because ther is not one low DPS long range ground to air unit in the whole game. And it even is mobile, I think this would be very cool.
hmm I felt that I went over it with the delay between attacks. Usually people who use cyclone disable autocast and do it manually
How do you mechanically efficient turn autocast off? When you select groups with mixed turned on and off autocast cyclones the active one is always the turned off one. So if you always add new cyclones to your group you would have to hit alt+hotkey twice. This is unintuitive unefficent and often causes mistakes.
Ontopic: I actually think they could design this unit around lockon and I don't think it is actually a bad mechanic. My suggestion was to make it smaller, cheaper, less gas intensive, way lower dps, supply 2, cut the tech lab requirement and make it nearly as fast as a hellion. Give it a longer aa standard attack and make a way longer cool down for lockon. That way it would be a very cheap mobile sniper unit which always moves around your mech ball sniping key units off your opponent.
This would also solve the problem of overlapping because ther is not one low DPS long range ground to air unit in the whole game. And it even is mobile, I think this would be very cool.
Well thing about the lock on mechanic is, you can't really make a unit that is able to kite endlessly without a downside to it; being cheap and disposable like you suggested while retaining ability to do weaker lock on will only exacerbate the problem in this I feel as it will either be completely broken or rather useless tickle beam to do much in engagement. Its incredibly hard to adjust, while shot requiring manual input and damage point is easier to balance around as it doesnt have "endless" kiting mechanic.
@anyone complaining about mechanical difficulties of using Cyclones: isn't that exactly what people wanted? I really don't see any harm in having in the game units that aren't very usefull unless you are extremely good, as long as there are other units that can be used instead of them. Really, all; this talk about "overlap" is silly. Having extra options that you do not use does not harm you in any way. The extra icons on the factory are not going to lose you the game.
If right now, cyclone doesn't seem to be great, wait until top korean pros will get hands of them. The unit screams of potential.
On October 15 2015 19:18 opisska wrote: @anyone complaining about mechanical difficulties of using Cyclones: isn't that exactly what people wanted? I really don't see any harm in having in the game units that aren't very usefull unless you are extremely good, as long as there are other units that can be used instead of them. Really, all; this talk about "overlap" is silly. Having extra options that you do not use does not harm you in any way. The extra icons on the factory are not going to lose you the game.
If right now, cyclone doesn't seem to be great, wait until top korean pros will get hands of them. The unit screams of potential.
The unit screams of "KILL ME PLEASE!".
For what reason would I get a 150/150/3 unit that needs multiple steps to make it shoot air units when I can make vikings which are cheaper and more reliable at AA job? People did not ask for mechanical difficulties. We are not masochists to ask for such a thing. What we simply asked for for over a thousand time was to have the units much more responsive and reliable. AKA "Depth of Micro". Not spam clicks to make the unit do the normal job of shooting and automate the only fun process which is kiting and positioning the unit.
Here is the situation. We need AA from factory. Cyclone does not the job properly. We need changes for it to do so. One of the proposed solutions is to make it Goliath 2.0.
remove thor and remove this rubbish cyclone that does not add anything to the game, and it's only an attempt to avoid introducing goliath
and bring back goliath, also reduce gas from siege to 100 and buff a bit its damage, we don't nee fancy units that are worse at their role that what we had in the past
sorry blizzard but the trio, vulture-liath-tank, was perfect in any way, and unchangeable, this is proven by how hard they are trying, yet they fail miserably everytime
sorry blizzard but the trio, vulture-liath-tank, was perfect in any way, and unchangeable, this is proven by how hard they are trying, yet they fail miserably everytime
Ah... And that trio is what made me go back to BW
As everyone mentioned. It won't work any other way than this. Even the hellions because of the line up splash damage they need to be balanced around that so they won't be op vs workers. But in skirmishing they suck hard. You used to see Vultures attack Protoss bases and doing real damage (Not killing workers and runaway). But planting mines and gaining some map control. In addition they could fight zealots well unlike Hellions, Hellbats were introduced for that reason. To cover the lack of Hellions of fighting zealots head on. They are good at lining up zealots for charge and snipe. But not in an actual combat
pls remember we also dont want to have a BW 2.0. Im totally ok with the Hellion>>>Hellbat. Ist fun to play with them in mech play and their role is ok. Alos in BW could 4 vultures completly destroy a worker line. I have seen it in pro matches!
SC II LotV is fun to play but Blizzards has to realize that the cyclone is a stupid unit at ist current state and not the unit we want to have in Terran mech!
The cyclone hat to be redesigned or has to get out of the game. We need a unit like the Goliath (it can be the cyckone but not with the lock on mechanic). I like SC II very much. But Blizzard needs to listen more to us in case of the cyclone and micro. We want to have a G2A Unit and not this medicore unit. We need more reactive micro and more positional play.
Blizzard we told you again and again make Mech play possible and Terran a more flexible Race (Biostyle is boring to watch all the time)! The cyclone at his current state is not the solution!
The Cyclone is much more interesting as a poking, anti-armored, and map-control unit than it is as anti-air. As such, if it's still too weak I'd like to see Blizzard reduce the lock-on cooldown or the cost.
But the jury's still out on whether it's too weak. The core stats are quite good, and I'd like to see the Korean pros play with it for a while, since the unit needs constant babysitting to be cost effective.
I like SC II more than BW. I like hellion play. I like that the siege tank is weaker but the problem is its too weak. Also they didnt make a bad Broodwar 2.0. Widowmines are completly different to use than spidermines. I hate this BW Hype all the time and discussions. Blizzard did a good ob with SC II most people who complain about it have no clue about what they are talking about!
On Topic: We need a strong G2A Unit. Blizzard needs to realize this. If this would be the cyclone or the Goliath is not relevant. The air attack should be removed from the Thor make him ground only and give us a faster ground 2 air unit. Also the lockdown ability is irrelevant if we have not a strong g2a attack!
Lock-on does 30dps (Blizzard time) to all armored air (spell damage, so it ignores armor), and with 50% lock-on uptime you're still doing ~25 dps. The Viking does anywhere between 11 to 13 dps to the units you want to use it against (Tempests, Carriers, Broodlords). A Viking is 150/75/2, a Cyclone is 150/150/3. Stat-wise, the Cyclone's already way more cost and supply efficient than anything else coming out of the factory or starport.
If that isn't enough, maybe the solution should be nerfing mass air (specifically the range, which makes it incredibly hard to engage into), instead of ramping Cyclone G2A to absurd levels and introducing even more power creep and dumb hard counters into the game?
On October 16 2015 01:22 Athenau wrote: If that isn't enough, maybe the solution should be nerfing mass air (specifically the range, which makes it incredibly hard to engage into), instead of ramping Cyclone G2A to absurd levels and introducing even more power creep and dumb hard counters into the game?
I like this suggestion. You are able to play very safe with vikings and their 9 range making every other form of AA less effective. They should bring it down to 6 and improve mobility.
The fix for the cyclone is to make it a strictly gimmick unit that has no place in core armies. It will be too fast and fragile to move with a mech ball. It will only be good at dealing damage to single units with no ability to trade damage for damage in actual A-move engagements. And then it won't even be good at worker harass because it can realistically only kill 1 unit every 10 seconds. It will have only 1 role: killing stalkers on the map when the cyclones outnumber the stalkers (which will never happen once the stalkers have blink and can gang up on the cyclones).
The new Cyclone is terrible TvT (utterly countered by tanks, wrecked by bio, don't even try versus well spread liberators). The new Cyclone is rotten TvP because its fragility will render it useless against blink-stalkers (and it can't stand up to air units now either with less health). The new Cyclone will be even worse TvZ (it won't even trade well with roaches anymore due to lower health).
On October 16 2015 01:22 Athenau wrote: How strong do you need the G2A to be?
Lock-on does 30dps (Blizzard time) to all armored air (spell damage, so it ignores armor), and with 50% lock-on uptime you're still doing ~25 dps. The Viking does anywhere between 11 to 13 dps to the units you want to use it against (Tempests, Carriers, Broodlords). A Viking is 150/75/2, a Cyclone is 150/150/3. Stat-wise, the Cyclone's already way more cost and supply efficient than anything else coming out of the factory or starport.
If that isn't enough, maybe the solution should be nerfing mass air (specifically the range, which makes it incredibly hard to engage into), instead of ramping Cyclone G2A to absurd levels and introducing even more power creep and dumb hard counters into the game?
The problem with the unit isn't really with DPS. As I said on my analysis on my post, cyclone's number is actually pretty damn good. Looks incredible on paper. But fact that it needs to close in and expose itself to fire and it being very bulky doesn't help it at all.
Especially when unit is bit fragile against the high singular target dps dealers it is mainly made against makes it drop off very fast as it needs very large space to work with to engage, and expose itself to majority of fire BEFORE it actually can attack. That means it will miss the first few volleys as it needs to target lock on for all the cyclone you have.
With it costing 150/150 and 3 pop, each and every cyclone lost hurts, and the mechanic involved doesn't help with it. As you engage, you will be losing those precious 3 population 150/150 cyclone at rapid rate which means the damage potential pretty much goes down the cliff before even touching opponents air.
Rather than changing absolutely everything, why not just make the unit more expandable so it doesn't suffer from power creep and absurd drop-off?
i have a question. Do you think the damage buff on lock on will help. Im not sure. Also David Kim said in a previous post that the cyclone might get removed if it doesnt work out right but he still wants to try it out a bit. I think thats fair. Wha tdo you think?
On October 16 2015 22:35 AlphaAeffchen wrote: Guys,
i have a question. Do you think the damage buff on lock on will help. Im not sure. Also David Kim said in a previous post that the cyclone might get removed if it doesnt work out right but he still wants to try it out a bit. I think thats fair. Wha tdo you think?
Answering your question, no it won't. Cyclone's issue is beyond flat damage buff. The real question is. If the unit proves that it completely have no place in the game and gets removed. Will urgent steps be made to re introduce the Goliath to replace it? Or Terran will end up with 1 single unit entering LOTV?
You know that Blizzard has many prototypes of Units and that SC II gets improved after release? I think we can get another unit. Or the cyclone get fixed more. I hate lock on.....
They aren't going to remove it at this point. Anyone thinking otherwise just fooling themselves. Worst case, they'll run out time and they're left with an undertuned unit that they'll balance after release. An unused unit doesn't do any harm, after all.
More likely they'll push the poking/map control role they want for it until they're happy, Goliath 2.0 boosters be damned.
David Kim said that it may be possible thet the unit gets removed if it doesnt work! Also it can be possible that we get the Goliath back or the cyclone will be the Goliath 2.0.
DK's just acknowledging that anything's possible. It's possible that the Cyclone causes such an uproar in the next two weeks that Blizzard removes it entirely. But if you think that's going to happen, I have a bridge to sell you.
As it happens, I agree with the direction they're taking it. Vulture 2.0 is much more interesting than Goliath 2.0. If Terrans have a problem with mass air, Blizzard should fix that at the source rather than tacking on more bandaid solutions.
Cyclone is a pretty 'micro-y' unit. Many below diamond will never use it because of this. I know I won't. Easier to just make Hellbats, Tanks and Thors.
Now does 57.1 DPS over 14 seconds instead of 42.7 dps over 13 seconds, but with 120 hp instead of 160hp
I feel like my point will stand out even more now that it is 150/150 120hp unit with 3 population, with no "power of numbers" to ward off the damage drop off.
Early game cyclone may be absurd but late game it will quickly drop off. All this patch did was make terran early-mid game stronger while the lategame got weakened more.
seeing streams, yea cyclones are extremely strong early-midgame unit but falls off rather quickly lategame as it has same problem as before but with less hp...
On October 19 2015 06:42 Athenau wrote: Can't mass them in the late game (maybe you can go Cyclone/Mine in mid though). Will never be a massable unit, and shouldn't be IMO.
With the current stats will always be a specialist unit to poke and snipe buildings/static d/high value units.
Yea it will be- but the hole left void on mech AA role is still there and mech playstyle didn't really need that kind of unit as much as it needs G2A factory role
Yea it will be- but the hole left void on mech AA role is still there and mech playstyle didn't really need that kind of unit as much as it needs G2A factory role
Like I've said before, that's due to the strength of mass air compositions (mostly just mass carriers and BL/Viper, though liberators might be problematic as well).
Factory G2A isn't an interesting role. Goliaths were boring in BW and will be even more boring with SC2's perfect pathing. They will forever be units that you add to your deathball for AA and nothing else. Furthermore, there are already _two_ AA units in the starport. Adding one to the factory just makes the overlapping unit "problem" worse (though I suspect the people promulgating this argument are making it out convenience, rather than any real conviction).
So in conclusion, I see three ways around this problem: 1. Best: Nerf mass air directly. Best, because it fixes the problem without introducing more bandaids. 2. Worse: Buff existing starport tech to handle the problem (most likely a speed or range buff to vikings, possibly via upgrade). This is worse, because it introduces more power creep, but at least it adds utility to existing units rather than making them obsolete. 3. Worst: Cyclone as Goliath 2.0. This is the worst option, because not only does it invalidate existing Terran units, it also comes at the cost of a new unit doing something interesting.
Yea it will be- but the hole left void on mech AA role is still there and mech playstyle didn't really need that kind of unit as much as it needs G2A factory role
Like I've said before, that's due to the strength of mass air compositions (mostly just mass carriers and BL/Viper, though liberators might be problematic as well).
Factory G2A isn't an interesting role. Goliaths were boring in BW and will be even more boring with SC2's perfect pathing. They will forever be units that you add to your deathball for AA and nothing else. Furthermore, there are already _two_ AA units in the starport. Adding one to the factory just makes the overlapping unit "problem" worse (though I suspect the people promulgating this argument are making it out convenience, rather than any real conviction).
So in conclusion, I see three ways around this problem: 1. Best: Nerf mass air directly. Best, because it fixes the problem without introducing more bandaids. 2. Worse: Buff existing starport tech to handle the problem (most likely a speed or range buff to vikings, possibly via upgrade). This is worse, because it introduces more power creep, but at least it adds utility to existing units rather than making them obsolete. 3. Worst: Cyclone as Goliath 2.0. This is the worst option, because not only does it invalidate existing Terran units, it also comes at the cost of a new unit doing something interesting.
Mass air vs mass air is a problem, the fact that the only answer to air from your enemy is to go air yourself makes it so its just a race for air, seeing terrans mass liberators and protoss rush for carriers is not interesting gameplay it just promotes turtle.
And Factory NEEDS AA, and not just AA for the sake of AA, it needs a mobile OK somewhat cheap AA, the fact that if your enemy goes air you need to build 3 starports and starting massing liberators its just bad fucking gameplay, not mention that starport units AREN'T a core part of mech, mech is and has always been Factory units, air units should be support, otherwise we end up with HotS like play where they simple go mid-game with some tanks and thors and then is straight to air.
The obvious solution is to make mass air unviable, so that air units remain supplements to ground armies. You do that by either nerfing air (preferable) or making specialist AA units strong enough to work without them forming the bulk of your army. Viking AA doesn't turn into mass air vs mass air if you don't need to get 100 supply of vikings to deal with 100 supply of carriers.
On October 19 2015 09:11 Athenau wrote: The obvious solution is to make mass air unviable, so that air units remain supplements to ground armies. You do that by either nerfing air (preferable) or making specialist AA units strong enough to work without them forming the bulk of your army. Viking AA doesn't turn into mass air vs mass air if you don't need to get 100 supply of vikings to deal with 100 supply of carriers.
Well problem stems both from strength of Air play as well as weakness of A2G of general sc2 units. I'd prefer if they tried to bring up G2A into level before they decide to do with air play.
Air should definitely be weaker but the lesser glass cannon units did provide some kind of exciting games. G2A seems more in priority atm as such sweeping change should have been done earlier in beta really.
Anyway, I've been playing a lot with the new cyclone, and it is definitely very strong midgame. But it deals with lategame air even worse as it takes far less shots to kill them and they stll expose themselves to fire when they engage, especially against broodlords and carriers.
I don't think it would be hard to nerf mass air. For carriers the culprit is release interceptors, since that allows you to bypass the 8 interceptor limit. Just remove that ability and revert the build time nerf. The faster build time and leash range changes should be enough to let the unit see play.
For vipers, move parasitic bomb to the infestor for a lower cost (75 or 100 energy). Now you can actually zone them out on the ground.
Liberators aren't really the same sort of mass-air deathball, but they could certainly use a tech-lab requirement + no extra vision in siege mode.
The Viking could use a minor buff, like 1 base armor (it is an armored unit), which doesn't change most unit interactions, but does result in it taking ~20% less damage from interceptors.
If we must have a factory G2A unit, just repurpose the Thor since it's a boring unit already. Bring back the 250 mm cannons and give it reasonable base dps (48 damage, 10 range, 2 cooldown sounds like a good start).
Well it is true air play is the culprit, but lack of general ground counter it plays huge part as well
I don't think blizzard plans to change the capital ships , not all at once though. And even with those nerfs, you still do need g2a solution to opponents air play, in this case mech.
Cyclone as it is now can only serve one purpose and that's defending against early harass from air units. After that there's no need to build it. It costs too much for what it does, and what it does is too little. It's terrible in a straight fight and dies too easily to just about anything.
Cyclone either needs better burst damage or it needs more HP to survive in big fights. As it is their usability is worse than the reaper.
Alternatively they can just remove it and add the Goliath.
I can't figure out how to balance a unit like this. It's fast, can attack on the move, has long range post-lock on, and attacks both ground and air. Right now, it's fragile and overcosted (150 gas and 120 HP? ouch). Fix those issues, and it will likely be spammed and overpowered.
I think it's just poor unit design, overall. I don't believe it even fits a niche that Terran needed. Terran already has plenty hyper-mobile, microintensive harass/kiting options. What Terran could use is a generalist factory unit with decent anti-air that can be a stable part of mech. The Thor could fit this role, but as is, it's a ridiculous unit; oversized, cumbersome, with overly-specialized anti-air. In my opinion, I'd remove the cyclone and completely redesign the Thor. I'd start with cutting almost everything in half (size, health, supply cost, anti-ground damage), and then giving it a more generally good (but not specialized!) anti-air attack. I'd see how that goes and rebalance/tweak it from there.
Terran has the excitement of the city! It needs a boring, but stable, suburbia unit!
Terran mech needs the cyclone for AA, but also to extend the range of their defensive position. If there's 5 roaches hitting a gaz on your thrid, and you can't really take the time to reposition a tank, cyclones allow you to lock on these units, and shoot at them from the safety of the siege tanks rings.
So I suppose the cyclone should be cheaper, like OP said (150/75), a little faster to build, but deal far less damage against ground.
On November 20 2015 22:40 JackONeill wrote: Terran mech needs the cyclone for AA, but also to extend the range of their defensive position. If there's 5 roaches hitting a gaz on your thrid, and you can't really take the time to reposition a tank, cyclones allow you to lock on these units, and shoot at them from the safety of the siege tanks rings.
So I suppose the cyclone should be cheaper, like OP said (150/75), a little faster to build, but deal far less damage against ground.
Let's say you make those changes; what's the point of building any other mech unit (besides the hellion mineral dump)? That's what I don't understand about the unit design. You have a unit that's fast, can endlessly kite, and has long range post-lock on. Unless its ground DPS is absolutely abysmal, I think people will mass it regardless.
It's cost effective when it can kite and poke and bad when it isn't. It's entirely possible to tweak the stats so that it's still inefficient in straight up fights, but a little more effective overall.
If Blizzard makes any changes, I'd expect them to be minor buffs, like reducing the cost to 150/125, or bumping the HP to 130 or 140, or (less likely) reducing the lock-on cooldown.
I think the game is shifting towards more diverse unit compositions in Terran and Protoss armies. That being said I don't think the Cyclone is meant to be a stand alone unit. I'm imagining in TvZ it's roll will be support early game Hellions, have sufficient numbers mid game to bolster up against Roaches + Mutas, and then support a Tank/Thor/Hellbat composition late game. A group of Cyclones is nice for chasing down smaller groups of Mutas/Roachs - but the DPS is not there for the cost of the unit in large numbers. It is really cost inefficient right now for what it provides. I haven't had very many games to try it in TvP, but it looks promising for fending off Warp Prism + Blink Stalker harass.
I do like the BF Hellion/Cyclone composition for mid game though TvZ--you can't get completely blind sided by a quick muta switch from a fake Roach Warren. I think in time if it doesn't get rebalanced, it will still have a place in Terran armies as a support unit.
On November 20 2015 22:40 JackONeill wrote: Terran mech needs the cyclone for AA, but also to extend the range of their defensive position. If there's 5 roaches hitting a gaz on your thrid, and you can't really take the time to reposition a tank, cyclones allow you to lock on these units, and shoot at them from the safety of the siege tanks rings.
So I suppose the cyclone should be cheaper, like OP said (150/75), a little faster to build, but deal far less damage against ground.
Let's say you make those changes; what's the point of building any other mech unit (besides the hellion mineral dump)? That's what I don't understand about the unit design. You have a unit that's fast, can endlessly kite, and has long range post-lock on. Unless its ground DPS is absolutely abysmal, I think people will mass it regardless.
No AoE, is very fragile, the lock on range is very short, you still need vision to keep it. Its affected by FF and fungal.
Cyclones are quite bad vs a lot of colossus, mass blink stalkers, brood lords, carriers, tanks, normal bio balls (altough they can kite), lurkers.
The best part of the cyclone is the mobility but as a straight on fight unit, you will lose most of the time, you NEED some thing to back of or higher tier units will wreck you.
Its the cost that makes nobody make them, if they are so broken in design everybody woyld make them (they have greath DPS now) but its not quite like you put it.
Less DPS and less cost would do wonders for the unit.
No AoE, is very fragile, the lock on range is very short, you still need vision to keep it. Its affected by FF and fungal.
Cyclones are quite bad vs a lot of colossus, mass blink stalkers, brood lords, carriers, tanks, normal bio balls (altough they can kite), lurkers.
The best part of the cyclone is the mobility but as a straight on fight unit, you will lose most of the time, you NEED some thing to back of or higher tier units will wreck you.
Its the cost that makes nobody make them, if they are so broken in design everybody woyld make them (they have greath DPS now) but its not quite like you put it.
Less DPS and less cost would do wonders for the unit.
Thanks for the reply!
It definitely does have its weaknesses, as you pointed out.
just as reference, but honestly if it boiled down to it, I would prefer a cyclone with lock on cast range of 8 (increases surviva-bility exponentially). AT least this is simple.
or a cheaper cyclone with less dps:
Cyclone factor with tech lab: 150/100/30
6 range. 18 damage (+2 per upgrade) armor 1 (+1 per upgrade) movespeed: 4.75 acceleration: 1000 (same as hellion)
Has lock on. Lock on deals 250 damage (not sure if armor should apply) lock on lasts 10 seconds. (lotv time). lock on has a cooldown of 5 seconds.
I agree with the OP. A mech army of Hellion Cyclone Tank. Anti light, anti air, and anti everything else ground. Fast Hellions and Cyclones can be aggressive in early game and base raid and support Tanks when you push.
We still need a stronger Tank and a weaker Liberator and air armies in general so that mech is not used just as a way to go sky Terran, but as a stand alone composition that defends, attacks and trades.
I think the problem is that Blizzard does not know what they want this unit to be. Is it a Vulture? Is it a Goliath? Is it an early game only unit, like the Reaper? Blizzard doesn't know, and it's almost like they are trying an "all of the above" approach. Problem is, this strange compromise has resulted in a unit that is useless across the board. It's a unit that tries to fill too many holes in the Mech army when Blizzard should really just redesign current units like the Thor to fill those holes and give the Cyclone a more defined role.
On November 24 2015 01:51 coolman123123 wrote: I think the problem is that Blizzard does not know what they want this unit to be. Is it a Vulture? Is it a Goliath? Is it an early game only unit, like the Reaper? Blizzard doesn't know, and it's almost like they are trying an "all of the above" approach. Problem is, this strange compromise has resulted in a unit that is useless across the board. It's a unit that tries to fill too many holes in the Mech army when Blizzard should really just redesign current units like the Thor to fill those holes and give the Cyclone a more defined role.
I think they wanted it to be a slightly more interesting warhound, massable move and shot unit from the factory, but the community did not like that, and they nerfed it so it can't be massed. Now it's like you say, without a role.
On November 24 2015 01:51 coolman123123 wrote: I think the problem is that Blizzard does not know what they want this unit to be. Is it a Vulture? Is it a Goliath? Is it an early game only unit, like the Reaper? Blizzard doesn't know, and it's almost like they are trying an "all of the above" approach. Problem is, this strange compromise has resulted in a unit that is useless across the board. It's a unit that tries to fill too many holes in the Mech army when Blizzard should really just redesign current units like the Thor to fill those holes and give the Cyclone a more defined role.
What I've seen so far of cyclone usage, it has good AA (defends drop/banshee/WP/oracle/mutas quite well) and the speed really helps in early game defense and pressure, the only reason people don't make more is that is way to expensive and fragile.
Well, to be fair, it does have a role right now in the early game, it deals pretty well with the single, strong harass units that terrans normally have a hard time dealing with such as oracles, warp prisms, banshees and medivacs. In zvz I haven't seen a use for them, they may theoretically be a counter to ultras, but I haven't seen that so don't know how it really works out.
is there any chance that we will get a better type of the cyclone, more like the Goliath. Or will the cyclone always keep his underdog role and will be very situational. We should more care about this issue. Its also important for zergs and protoss. Because there would be a better gameplay with more playstyles.
Guys do you really want to see Bio all the time. Its getting really frustrating!
while I agree it is not looking good at the moment, I do think it will find its place with small adjustment. I actually think the cost is acceptable given how powerful it could be, it's the build time that I have most complain about, takes way too long to build for a single target focused unit.
The cyclone isnt bad, its like the factory reaper. Defensively they are really good (better than a lot of other options) vs Oracles, adepts, banshees etc.
See it more like a stepping stone to get a better composition, not the composition itself.
I know that the Cyclone is usefull in early game against toss and sometimes against terra. But at the beginning of LotV it was possible to play mech now its not. You cant go mech against toss or zerg. The Cyclone needs a change or it will stay a gimmicky unit with near Zero gameinfluence!
Also the Cost is way too much for a factory unit with near zero gameinpact (I know for defense but the design for the cyclone is to make mech viable)
If we dont care more about the cyclone mechplay will be dead. We had an offensive Mech style at the beginning of Lotv. This was good for the game. We should get that back with some tweaks (i know that the cyclone was to strong but now it is poor bullshit)!
Pls People care more about the Cyclone. If they Change this unit the game gets better for all. For viewers and players. Pls care about it and adress it to blizzard until they do something.
I haven't been using it much outside of banshee defense in TvT. No stat change will really anything though. It needs a complete redesign as its current state is too around around. It will either be too good at everything or too bad at everything.
It being an ultra counter is a complete failure so Blizzard should just make it dedicated factory anti air with ground support akin to goliaths.
On December 02 2015 01:23 weikor wrote: The cyclone isnt bad, its like the factory reaper. Defensively they are really good (better than a lot of other options) vs Oracles, adepts, banshees etc.
See it more like a stepping stone to get a better composition, not the composition itself.
The problem is that is just becoming another "bio utility unit" like banshees, reapers and ravens, units you get 1 or 2 for the early game before transitioning to full bio + liberators
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NjwFHby.png)
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