I can't figure out how to balance a unit like this. It's fast, can attack on the move, has long range post-lock on, and attacks both ground and air. Right now, it's fragile and overcosted (150 gas and 120 HP? ouch). Fix those issues, and it will likely be spammed and overpowered.
I think it's just poor unit design, overall. I don't believe it even fits a niche that Terran needed. Terran already has plenty hyper-mobile, microintensive harass/kiting options. What Terran could use is a generalist factory unit with decent anti-air that can be a stable part of mech. The Thor could fit this role, but as is, it's a ridiculous unit; oversized, cumbersome, with overly-specialized anti-air. In my opinion, I'd remove the cyclone and completely redesign the Thor. I'd start with cutting almost everything in half (size, health, supply cost, anti-ground damage), and then giving it a more generally good (but not specialized!) anti-air attack. I'd see how that goes and rebalance/tweak it from there.
Terran has the excitement of the city! It needs a boring, but stable, suburbia unit!
Terran mech needs the cyclone for AA, but also to extend the range of their defensive position. If there's 5 roaches hitting a gaz on your thrid, and you can't really take the time to reposition a tank, cyclones allow you to lock on these units, and shoot at them from the safety of the siege tanks rings.
So I suppose the cyclone should be cheaper, like OP said (150/75), a little faster to build, but deal far less damage against ground.
On November 20 2015 22:40 JackONeill wrote: Terran mech needs the cyclone for AA, but also to extend the range of their defensive position. If there's 5 roaches hitting a gaz on your thrid, and you can't really take the time to reposition a tank, cyclones allow you to lock on these units, and shoot at them from the safety of the siege tanks rings.
So I suppose the cyclone should be cheaper, like OP said (150/75), a little faster to build, but deal far less damage against ground.
Let's say you make those changes; what's the point of building any other mech unit (besides the hellion mineral dump)? That's what I don't understand about the unit design. You have a unit that's fast, can endlessly kite, and has long range post-lock on. Unless its ground DPS is absolutely abysmal, I think people will mass it regardless.
It's cost effective when it can kite and poke and bad when it isn't. It's entirely possible to tweak the stats so that it's still inefficient in straight up fights, but a little more effective overall.
If Blizzard makes any changes, I'd expect them to be minor buffs, like reducing the cost to 150/125, or bumping the HP to 130 or 140, or (less likely) reducing the lock-on cooldown.
I think the game is shifting towards more diverse unit compositions in Terran and Protoss armies. That being said I don't think the Cyclone is meant to be a stand alone unit. I'm imagining in TvZ it's roll will be support early game Hellions, have sufficient numbers mid game to bolster up against Roaches + Mutas, and then support a Tank/Thor/Hellbat composition late game. A group of Cyclones is nice for chasing down smaller groups of Mutas/Roachs - but the DPS is not there for the cost of the unit in large numbers. It is really cost inefficient right now for what it provides. I haven't had very many games to try it in TvP, but it looks promising for fending off Warp Prism + Blink Stalker harass.
I do like the BF Hellion/Cyclone composition for mid game though TvZ--you can't get completely blind sided by a quick muta switch from a fake Roach Warren. I think in time if it doesn't get rebalanced, it will still have a place in Terran armies as a support unit.
On November 20 2015 22:40 JackONeill wrote: Terran mech needs the cyclone for AA, but also to extend the range of their defensive position. If there's 5 roaches hitting a gaz on your thrid, and you can't really take the time to reposition a tank, cyclones allow you to lock on these units, and shoot at them from the safety of the siege tanks rings.
So I suppose the cyclone should be cheaper, like OP said (150/75), a little faster to build, but deal far less damage against ground.
Let's say you make those changes; what's the point of building any other mech unit (besides the hellion mineral dump)? That's what I don't understand about the unit design. You have a unit that's fast, can endlessly kite, and has long range post-lock on. Unless its ground DPS is absolutely abysmal, I think people will mass it regardless.
No AoE, is very fragile, the lock on range is very short, you still need vision to keep it. Its affected by FF and fungal.
Cyclones are quite bad vs a lot of colossus, mass blink stalkers, brood lords, carriers, tanks, normal bio balls (altough they can kite), lurkers.
The best part of the cyclone is the mobility but as a straight on fight unit, you will lose most of the time, you NEED some thing to back of or higher tier units will wreck you.
Its the cost that makes nobody make them, if they are so broken in design everybody woyld make them (they have greath DPS now) but its not quite like you put it.
Less DPS and less cost would do wonders for the unit.
No AoE, is very fragile, the lock on range is very short, you still need vision to keep it. Its affected by FF and fungal.
Cyclones are quite bad vs a lot of colossus, mass blink stalkers, brood lords, carriers, tanks, normal bio balls (altough they can kite), lurkers.
The best part of the cyclone is the mobility but as a straight on fight unit, you will lose most of the time, you NEED some thing to back of or higher tier units will wreck you.
Its the cost that makes nobody make them, if they are so broken in design everybody woyld make them (they have greath DPS now) but its not quite like you put it.
Less DPS and less cost would do wonders for the unit.
Thanks for the reply!
It definitely does have its weaknesses, as you pointed out.
just as reference, but honestly if it boiled down to it, I would prefer a cyclone with lock on cast range of 8 (increases surviva-bility exponentially). AT least this is simple.
or a cheaper cyclone with less dps:
Cyclone factor with tech lab: 150/100/30
6 range. 18 damage (+2 per upgrade) armor 1 (+1 per upgrade) movespeed: 4.75 acceleration: 1000 (same as hellion)
Has lock on. Lock on deals 250 damage (not sure if armor should apply) lock on lasts 10 seconds. (lotv time). lock on has a cooldown of 5 seconds.
I agree with the OP. A mech army of Hellion Cyclone Tank. Anti light, anti air, and anti everything else ground. Fast Hellions and Cyclones can be aggressive in early game and base raid and support Tanks when you push.
We still need a stronger Tank and a weaker Liberator and air armies in general so that mech is not used just as a way to go sky Terran, but as a stand alone composition that defends, attacks and trades.
I think the problem is that Blizzard does not know what they want this unit to be. Is it a Vulture? Is it a Goliath? Is it an early game only unit, like the Reaper? Blizzard doesn't know, and it's almost like they are trying an "all of the above" approach. Problem is, this strange compromise has resulted in a unit that is useless across the board. It's a unit that tries to fill too many holes in the Mech army when Blizzard should really just redesign current units like the Thor to fill those holes and give the Cyclone a more defined role.
On November 24 2015 01:51 coolman123123 wrote: I think the problem is that Blizzard does not know what they want this unit to be. Is it a Vulture? Is it a Goliath? Is it an early game only unit, like the Reaper? Blizzard doesn't know, and it's almost like they are trying an "all of the above" approach. Problem is, this strange compromise has resulted in a unit that is useless across the board. It's a unit that tries to fill too many holes in the Mech army when Blizzard should really just redesign current units like the Thor to fill those holes and give the Cyclone a more defined role.
I think they wanted it to be a slightly more interesting warhound, massable move and shot unit from the factory, but the community did not like that, and they nerfed it so it can't be massed. Now it's like you say, without a role.
On November 24 2015 01:51 coolman123123 wrote: I think the problem is that Blizzard does not know what they want this unit to be. Is it a Vulture? Is it a Goliath? Is it an early game only unit, like the Reaper? Blizzard doesn't know, and it's almost like they are trying an "all of the above" approach. Problem is, this strange compromise has resulted in a unit that is useless across the board. It's a unit that tries to fill too many holes in the Mech army when Blizzard should really just redesign current units like the Thor to fill those holes and give the Cyclone a more defined role.
What I've seen so far of cyclone usage, it has good AA (defends drop/banshee/WP/oracle/mutas quite well) and the speed really helps in early game defense and pressure, the only reason people don't make more is that is way to expensive and fragile.
Well, to be fair, it does have a role right now in the early game, it deals pretty well with the single, strong harass units that terrans normally have a hard time dealing with such as oracles, warp prisms, banshees and medivacs. In zvz I haven't seen a use for them, they may theoretically be a counter to ultras, but I haven't seen that so don't know how it really works out.
is there any chance that we will get a better type of the cyclone, more like the Goliath. Or will the cyclone always keep his underdog role and will be very situational. We should more care about this issue. Its also important for zergs and protoss. Because there would be a better gameplay with more playstyles.
Guys do you really want to see Bio all the time. Its getting really frustrating!
EPT
