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On September 11 2015 09:26 crazedrat wrote:Yeah I like the auto inject. I'm still so busy spreading creep and scouting / doing all the little things Zerg needs, my APM is still taxed and it's around 190 right now. You look at leagues platinum and below - i.e. the majority of players, and they all play terran and protoss. They can't play zerg it's too many clicks. I don't see why new players need to be excluded from the game. How does that help anyone who plays starcraft? How is that good for the community? And then we have Protoss, the easiest race macro-wise and only race which keeps the autocast. ... Why? As long as they give Zerg the missing larvae back I am alright anyway.
new players aren't excluded from the game, they play vs players of similar skill level so they don't have to do as many clicks as high level players. most bronze players probably don't use injects anyway.
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On September 11 2015 10:11 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2015 09:26 crazedrat wrote:On September 11 2015 09:23 Varest wrote:
I really want to keep auto-inject. Yeah I like the auto inject. I'm still so busy spreading creep and scouting / doing all the little things Zerg needs, my APM is still taxed and it's around 190 right now. You look at leagues platinum and below - i.e. the majority of players, and they all play terran and protoss. They can't play zerg it's too many clicks. I don't see why new players need to be excluded from the game. How does that help anyone who plays starcraft? How is that good for the community? And then we have Protoss, the easiest race macro-wise and only race which keeps the autocast. ... Why? As long as they give Zerg the missing larvae back I am alright anyway. new players aren't excluded from the game, they play vs players of similar skill level so they don't have to do as many clicks as high level players. most bronze players probably don't use injects anyway.
Yeah, I don't know why everyone complains that you need to spend 100 hours drilling mechanics and builds to rank up. When I was in bronze, I was perfectly satisfied with only improving my play in fun ways and not drilling things. Sure, I improved slowly, but some people just have far too high expectations. Think of Malcolm Gladwell's 1000 hour rule; 1000 hours of intense, focused practice (this means macro drills) could get you to expert level on a bunch of things. People shouldn't expect to improve so quickly just by playing; you can't do that in very many activities.
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I like the spammable injects better than auto injects.
There is still potential to distract the zerg with aggressive play this way, but they can still 'catch up' later. Seems legit.
Sure people can make an extra queen, inject immediately and then use that queen for creep, creating an inject 'buffer', but the potential for slip ups still remain.
Mules are stupid. Really stupid. They always have been, they always will be. 2 base terran has always been more powerful than everyone else, which is why balancing vs terran has always been about making the 3rd base easy to take and hold. Terran mid game economy is bullshit as long as mules are in the game. This was made evident by all the terran tears when they realised 2 fully saturated bases was insufficient to provide for their infrastructure they'normally' have.
Chrono is the reason protoss are called 'gimmicky'. More than FF. More than warp gate. Protoss would hit some stupid timing via chrono and have yet another cheesey win. Everything protoss that has a timer got nerfed early WOL to make up for the fact that it could be rushed out too early via chrono. It should be ditched and everything that's not from a warp gate should have research / production time reduced by 15%
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Bisutopia19299 Posts
On September 11 2015 09:52 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2015 08:32 BisuDagger wrote:
As someone who was outspoken against removing the three macro abilites, I actually came to agree with the change. Now that I'm pro removal I'm upset again lol. i was never strongly for or against it. i think this is where a really smart, visionary type game designer is needed. is DK that guy?
I am the first to admit when I was wrong about something. I didn't want the macro removed, but as far as I feel they made a good decision to remove them. * Check! DK did good*
Now they are bringing all of it back and a ton of variations. I personally believe there is a ton to fix and balance remaining that any time further spent on this is time wasted. I personally wish they stood by the decision especially since I was already convinced to change my mind. * grumble grumble DK!*
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David Kim: Are we chasing the best design for each of these mechanics or is taking away a skill that players have been practicing for years better for the game in the long-term?
This mechanic is the most difficult because, design-wise, the current version is arguably better, however players are losing a skill they’ve been practicing for years, which isn't ideal
Get the fuck over it.
Reversing the removal of macro mechanics is extremely disappointing.
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I really don't think I'm going to purchase LOTV =/
I'm so disappointed that they're reverting to the status quo by their own admission, instead of taking the time to truly make the game the best it could be.
I've never seen a AAA developer be so lazy about updating and maintaining their product to the highest quality level possible. I don't worship Riot, but by comparison their developer staff blows David Kim and company out of the water in terms of making communication and game design.
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I enjoyed it when they removed all macro mechanics, should have balanced the game around that.
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China6330 Posts
Should have sticked to the removal plan, this is just over complicating things.
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the dream is dead 
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I still check TL now and then and after years of living and breathing SC2 I just can't give a shit anymore. I think the straw that broke the camels back was when they utterly failed to listen to the single largest community on the most obvious problem.
gg no re
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On September 11 2015 03:23 ffadicted wrote:
RIP no macro mechanics... Removing them was the best thing that ever happened to sc2, and all we needed was some rebalancing... But blizzard too lazy, prob being pushed to release the game too early, and reverting everything back to HotS status.
So disappointed
Also, on the larva stack... Do they not realize people are just going to make a ton of queen and keep infinity stacking larva on the same hatch? How is that ever gonna work lmao... That cannot be balanced
I agree with you 100%. I had high hopes that they would actually try some balancing for the no macro mechanics, but instead they just kind of did it and reverted within a week. I mean now it's looking like their going to go back to hots except with slightly less minerals/gas, more workers at start and a couple of new units.
I was starting to get very hopeful for lotv once they did some of their big changes, but alas I should have known it was going to be reverted. I'm shocked they haven't reverted the mineral/gas change yet tbh. Unless they decide to revert back to nno macro mechanics or something lotv is on my no buy list for now.
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I'm happy with Zerg stackable injects as long as there's some way to prevent 5 queens from using up all their energy on one hatchery.
Maybe, each subsequent inject has less production (like Devourer spores). Or having a max inject amount.
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Another week facing hellbat liberator push and giving free wins to terrans....
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This change is... better than the previous one with automated everything but I can't help but be losing faith here. I think most people seemed to love no macro boosters with the MASSIVE EXCEPTION of automated shit. Speaking of which, they never did try just removing inject full stop.
I don't feel like they gave no macro boosters a chance here, with some balancing I think it could be the perfect version of SC2.
On September 11 2015 10:41 Kharnage wrote:
Mules are stupid. Really stupid. They always have been, they always will be. 2 base terran has always been more powerful than everyone else, which is why balancing vs terran has always been about making the 3rd base easy to take and hold. Terran mid game economy is bullshit as long as mules are in the game. This was made evident by all the terran tears when they realised 2 fully saturated bases was insufficient to provide for their infrastructure they'normally' have.
Took the words right out of my mouth. I'm almost positive mass terran bitching got mules put back, which caused the automation of everything, which caused even more backlash, which caused Blizz to say fuck it.
Blizzard, you're already making massive, sweeping changes weekly at this point. Just TRY without macro mechanics or automated shit. If we can handle the 30 damage mega zealot and those 2 weeks everything was ZvZ we can handle this for a week at least.
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The major punishment for forgeting inject is lack of larvae when you're under pressure and need units. Inject stack won't solve anything since the player will still have to wait 40 seconds for larvae.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
Mechancis does not win 9/10 times in SC2, the hell are you fools talking about?
Also you're shocked when the player that worked harder ends up also having a better strategy?
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On September 11 2015 04:30 Tenks wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2015 04:16 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 11 2015 04:07 Tenks wrote:On September 11 2015 03:53 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 11 2015 03:50 Lexender wrote:On September 11 2015 03:49 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 11 2015 03:44 Tenks wrote:On September 11 2015 03:14 WrathSCII wrote:
Are they that lazy to go back to HOTS just to avoid rebalancing on no MM? It was the best single fucking update during those months. And they kept for 2 weeks to completely remove it and never talk about it as it never happened.
WTF is wrong with these guys?! we're back to the same old boat where 9/10 the person with simple better raw mechanics will win And isn't that... great ? Strategy should only be the distinguishing factor between people of the same mechanical level. We should rename the genre to RTM real time mechanical game I have zero interest in people with great strategic thinking but no mechanics to back it up. I'm very happy with SC2 being a mechanically demanding game. If you disagree with that point of view that's absolutely fine, that's just a personal opinion, nothing to get upset about. The problem, outside of making the game almost impossible to get into, is that it rewards only one style of play. Outside of some lucky un scouted timing attacks and cheese the mechanically superior player will just outright win all the time. Lets take the below radar chart. The person (since I was lazy aka "Series 1") will will a disproportionate amount of times compared to the other two players simply because he is superior at one facet of the game. The game should strive to reward all aptitudes not just simply muscle memory. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/5nEgdFs.jpg) Why would it reward only one style of play ? A mechanically sound player can still choose to go defensive (Rain vs Maru) or craft the perfect all-in to dismantle his opponent's predictable build (Polt vs Classic on Overgrowth). What I don't want to see is some 100 APM Protoss taking out games of INnoVation because he so obviously outsmarted him with his delayed oracle into delayed DTs. Your paranoid statement about Innovation losing to some 100 APM Protoss will not happen even in macro-less LotV. Because LotV should, in theory, reward the player who has fast decision making and very strong multi-task. And yes you still have macro in LotV because you need to constantly move workers around and expand out. It is there it is just less important. But I'll also circle around and ask this -- why not? Is it the worst thing in the world when the Dolphins (sorry American Football) busted out the never-before-seen Wildcat formation against the Patriots and beat them? Is it terrible that Virginia Tech used a exotic defensive formation to beat Ohio State last year? No. Just because you cannot adapt to a situation in a game means you didn't deserve to win the game.
Now your previous statement is comparing two top level pro gamers. This is a problem I've been having lately with TL in regards to macro-less and LotV direction in general. You are comparing two people who are already nearly perfect in the mechanics department. Starcraft should not be a game you are only allowed to play if you've already put in 1000 hours to perfect your mechanics. That is not a viable game for the future. People are trying to perserve this sacred ground that is the pro gamer scene at the cost of the actual longevity of the game. The game needs to be accessible from the very first instance you load it up and play around with it. At the moment it is not. You can only start to worry about practicing and working on your micro and build variance once you've secured enough hours into the game to have at least passable mechanics. The game needs to be fun at all skill levels not just the highest. The game needs to reward players for player versus player interactions not just player versus mechanics interactions. Take any Diamond replay and you could point out 100 mechanical mistakes they made that if they didn't they could have won the game regardless of any micro failings. How many times can you load up a Diamond vs Diamond replay and try and boil something down to a player versus player interaction as the true cause of a loss? Probably less than half.
I think this makes the most sense of anything I've read so far in this thread. I watched a game of BW today and it was great. The macro/econ is not nearly as intense as SC2. The units comps are much simpler. It's much more accessible to newbs. Yet it is still a ton of fun to play and has a thriving meta that's still changing. I like protoss chrono boost because it allows players to hit a huge variety of unique timings, but mostly macros just punish players who do not hit their injects/mules/chronos perfectly.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
I'm convinced that anyone claiming brood war is more acessible than sc2+macro mechanics has never played brood war. That being said i still prefer no mule and a zerg that doesn't get 60% of its larvae from queens.
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On September 11 2015 12:13 Cyro wrote:
I'm convinced that anyone claiming brood war is more acessible than sc2+macro mechanics has never played brood war. That being said i still prefer no mule and a zerg that doesn't get 60% of its larvae from queens.
You really think so? I played broodwar from ages 12-15 (probably 4-6 hours a day) and was pretty damn good. I come back to SC2 about 2 months ago in HotS and the game has been like a slap in the face. I know I was gone from RTS for a long time, but damn, I'm a lot smarter now than I was when I was a kid. That should be worth something, right?
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On September 11 2015 10:55 Lunareste wrote:
I've never seen a AAA developer be so lazy about updating and maintaining their product to the highest quality level possible. I don't worship Riot, but by comparison their developer staff blows David Kim and company out of the water in terms of making communication and game design.
this comment is off base. Blizzard puts way more resources into WoW than Riot puts into LoL. So let's call Riot lazy about LoL then... umm ya ok.
the revenue potential of the game limits DK's resources to such an extent that making a huge change can not be justified financially... that is what is really going on here. its not being "so lazy". Give DK's team another $20 million in development budget and add a year to the release date and of course DK could pull off this big change.
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EPT
