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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On September 11 2015 12:20 PorkSoda wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2015 12:13 Cyro wrote:
I'm convinced that anyone claiming brood war is more acessible than sc2+macro mechanics has never played brood war. That being said i still prefer no mule and a zerg that doesn't get 60% of its larvae from queens. You really think so? I played broodwar from ages 12-15 (probably 4-6 hours a day) and was pretty damn good. I come back to SC2 about 2 months ago in HotS and the game has been like a slap in the face. I know I was gone from RTS for a long time, but damn, I'm a lot smarter now than I was when I was a kid. That should be worth something, right?
Every BW player I met told me Iccup was hard as fuck.
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On September 11 2015 12:24 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2015 12:20 PorkSoda wrote:On September 11 2015 12:13 Cyro wrote:
I'm convinced that anyone claiming brood war is more acessible than sc2+macro mechanics has never played brood war. That being said i still prefer no mule and a zerg that doesn't get 60% of its larvae from queens. You really think so? I played broodwar from ages 12-15 (probably 4-6 hours a day) and was pretty damn good. I come back to SC2 about 2 months ago in HotS and the game has been like a slap in the face. I know I was gone from RTS for a long time, but damn, I'm a lot smarter now than I was when I was a kid. That should be worth something, right? Every BW player I met told me Iccup was hard as fuck.
I was very young back when I was playing BW, so maybe I don't remember the game as clearly. I also had ten years to forget all the hotkeys and muscle memory.
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United Kingdom20343 Posts
On September 11 2015 12:20 PorkSoda wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2015 12:13 Cyro wrote:
I'm convinced that anyone claiming brood war is more acessible than sc2+macro mechanics has never played brood war. That being said i still prefer no mule and a zerg that doesn't get 60% of its larvae from queens. You really think so? I played broodwar from ages 12-15 (probably 4-6 hours a day) and was pretty damn good. I come back to SC2 about 2 months ago in HotS and the game has been like a slap in the face. I know I was gone from RTS for a long time, but damn, I'm a lot smarter now than I was when I was a kid. That should be worth something, right?
You try to play sc2 to completely different standards that you tried to play brood war, though.
To either game if you're just messing around then you probably don't even care about finer mechanics.
If you're trying to make a game that even remotely resembles a pro game, it's way easier in Starcraft 2.
I got BW when i was like 10 years old, sc2 at ~14 and went silver to master in WOL - i played wc3 and total annihilation too and playing with no building hotkeys, needing like 8 actions instead of 1-2 to give a move command to a basic marine army etc.. it's uncomparable to what we have today. There's so much BS it's hard to even get started. Stuff like P for Pylon that wasn't rebindable.
I think removing macro mechanics and having hatcheries make more larvae (instead of ~60% of zergs larvae coming from queens) would be good for the game, but that's because in LOTV, basically every game has a natural expansion for both sides between the 1-2 minute mark, it doesn't even register as taking an expansion any more, that's just how you start the game. It's way more normal to be playing on 3-4 nexii/cc/hatcheries than it ever has been.
LOTV without macro mechanics is mechanically just as hard as HOTS and harder than WOL unless you play zerg, where auto injects are a bit silly. My preferred system for them would be balance with less emphasis on injects, rather than having injects done automatically.
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Remove MSC/MS from the game and give its abilities to the nexus plz! Heroic units don't belong to this game in multiplayer mode!
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Imagine stacking Larvae injects to the max on one hatch only to have it sniped
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On September 11 2015 11:37 Little-Chimp wrote:This change is... better than the previous one with automated everything but I can't help but be losing faith here. I think most people seemed to love no macro boosters with the MASSIVE EXCEPTION of automated shit. Speaking of which, they never did try just removing inject full stop. I don't feel like they gave no macro boosters a chance here, with some balancing I think it could be the perfect version of SC2. Show nested quote +On September 11 2015 10:41 Kharnage wrote:
Mules are stupid. Really stupid. They always have been, they always will be. 2 base terran has always been more powerful than everyone else, which is why balancing vs terran has always been about making the 3rd base easy to take and hold. Terran mid game economy is bullshit as long as mules are in the game. This was made evident by all the terran tears when they realised 2 fully saturated bases was insufficient to provide for their infrastructure they'normally' have.
Took the words right out of my mouth. I'm almost positive mass terran bitching got mules put back, which caused the automation of everything, which caused even more backlash, which caused Blizz to say fuck it. Blizzard, you're already making massive, sweeping changes weekly at this point. Just TRY without macro mechanics or automated shit. If we can handle the 30 damage mega zealot and those 2 weeks everything was ZvZ we can handle this for a week at least.
All well said
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when is patch going live ?
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At the start of removing macro changes I was completely opposed.
But as I listened to the arguments for removing macro mechanics I became open to the idea, then I started to play and experience it.
Now that I have tried the game without macro mechanics I have been enjoying it a lot more. I think it is a great change!
I am very disappointed they want to revert it back. This change was barely experimented with, clearly we should have been trying these things early in the beta. If people want the old mechanics let them play the hots version of the game and make LOTV truly different. At the end of the day people will choose which version is best, and I think they will choose LOTV.
Terran mules are total shit. I think last weeks answer was a pretty elegant one to address the problem of early economy for terran. The new solution for overlapping mules is terrible in my opinion.
This change didn't get a fair chance, please remove the macro boosters again.
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They're running out of time before release, and it shows the marketing guys are starting to push.
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During the removal of macro mechanics I saw many Terrans just quit the game. On ladder I saw Terrans that were 0-12, 1-14, etc. Toward the end they started to skip orbitals and Terran began actually doing well. I feel like they (David Kim, Blizzard) Almost added the MULE back as a concession to the cries across the board, especially from Terrans.
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On September 11 2015 13:38 crazedrat wrote:
During the removal of macro mechanics I saw many Terrans just quit the game. On ladder I saw Terrans that were 0-12, 1-14, etc. Toward the end they started to skip orbitals and Terran began actually doing well. I feel like they (David Kim, Blizzard) Almost added the MULE bac as a concession to the cries across the board, especially from Terrans.
Speaking as a terran player the game did not feel like it played out well. Being beaten to a pulp over and over again was just icing on the cake.
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It seems that there's one big flaw in this beta testing thing. Each patch isn't on long enough for a meta game to evolve. No macro mechanics could have been developed but it wasn't around long enough for a rudimentary meta. Now there's auto macro. Now there's stackable injects and non stackable mules. All within a few weeks. No one gets a chance to feel things out. Maybe Terran could defend adept/warprism all-ins if given more than one week to figure out a solid meta/strategy. The sample sizes being used to change the beta seem way too small.
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On September 11 2015 13:38 crazedrat wrote:
During the removal of macro mechanics I saw many Terrans just quit the game. On ladder I saw Terrans that were 0-12, 1-14, etc. Toward the end they started to skip orbitals and Terran began actually doing well. I feel like they (David Kim, Blizzard) Almost added the MULE back as a concession to the cries across the board, especially from Terrans.
Those are retards and can't think at all. The reason Terran suffered is because they were balanced around mules. The best MM out of the three. When it was removed, Terran suffered a lot, especially since the harassment options was not nerfed to keep it balanced. The game was balanced with MM vs Harassment units. Now that MM was gone, Harassment units were too strong and broken. So once a T lose like 15-20 workers at once, it is impossible to get back into the game without major mistake from the other side.
Too many workers in a single base making harassment units more effective.
The issue that some units were designed specially to be anti workers.
If those were addressed too, it will be much better situation than we had at the start of removal of MM.
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On September 11 2015 14:12 PorkSoda wrote:
It seems that there's one big flaw in this beta testing thing. Each patch isn't on long enough for a meta game to evolve. No macro mechanics could have been developed but it wasn't around long enough for a rudimentary meta. Now there's auto macro. Now there's stackable injects and non stackable mules. All within a few weeks. No one gets a chance to feel things out. Maybe Terran could defend adept/warprism all-ins if given more than one week to figure out a solid meta/strategy. The sample sizes being used to change the beta seem way too small.
Yeah, it's a bit confusing that they somehow thought that removing these 3 mechanics would somehow balance the races out.
Mules are a massive boost to Terran. It's not suprise at all to see them lose every game after taking it out. It's insane to think they they wouldn't need to look at balancing some costs or something to balance it out.
Instead, they just put it back.
*Confused*
No real attempt at making it work, like reducing scv production time or something. Just "well, that didn't work. too hard"
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I think they realized after removing MM that it could work, but how much time would it take to balance and figure out? With the game being released soon, I dont think they have the time or money to pull it off. Such a shame.
Wish they could bump back the release date to get everything truly right, rather than release a flawed multiplayer. Im guessing the game will be released with a instant balance update patch and multiple to follow shortly after.
How will all this effect tournaments and leagues as well? Will they all switch to LOTV or wait till its in a better spot? I guess we will see where the games at when its released...
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Damn they came back from the fucking grave where they bellonged.
Starcraft is about strategy. Macro is good when it is a decision making / planning issue. To know when to make units and when to upgrade stuff, when to skip workers and all is the real difficulty of macro.
It's not about : "I spamm faster than my oponent" and it should never fucking be.
Mules weeeeeeeeeere so fucking stupid. No interest. They was really no choice between eco and scan, and people choose eco 90 % of the time - they HAD to. So yeah...
Chrono is kinda cool for the decision making part. So it can stay !
Zerg inject is reaaaaaaaaaally dumb. You have no decision to make it's like "inject inject inject" and if you don't do it you're behind. It brings no value to the game. You could have a game mechanic like you should press some button every X seconds and it would be the same thing, like bus drivers. Damn.
Sad to see them fucking come back.
And then you think that all the units that are sadly damaged. And nothing happens for them.
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On September 11 2015 14:42 NyxNax wrote:
I think they realized after removing MM that it could work, but how much time would it take to balance and figure out? With the game being released soon, I dont think they have the time or money to pull it off. Such a shame.
Wish they could bump back the release date to get everything truly right, rather than release a flawed multiplayer. Im guessing the game will be released with a instant balance update patch and multiple to follow shortly after.
How will all this effect tournaments and leagues as well? Will they all switch to LOTV or wait till its in a better spot? I guess we will see where the games at when its released...
This is what happens when you derp around the first 3 months of the beta and at the last month you say "hey lets remove MM and see what happens! Oh man too much balance needed and no time, meh lets just revert back and call it a day".
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On September 11 2015 14:54 HonorZ wrote:Damn they came back from the fucking grave where they bellonged. Starcraft is about strategy. Macro is good when it is a decision making / planning issue. To know when to make units and when to upgrade stuff, when to skip workers and all is the real difficulty of macro. It's not about : "I spamm faster than my oponent" and it should never fucking be. Mules weeeeeeeeeere so fucking stupid. No interest. They was really no choice between eco and scan, and people choose eco 90 % of the time - they HAD to. So yeah... Chrono is kinda cool for the decision making part. So it can stay ! Zerg inject is reaaaaaaaaaally dumb. You have no decision to make it's like "inject inject inject" and if you don't do it you're behind. It brings no value to the game. You could have a game mechanic like you should press some button every X seconds and it would be the same thing, like bus drivers. Damn. Sad to see them fucking come back. And then you think that all the units that are sadly damaged. And nothing happens for them.
You're playing the wrong game genre if you ONLY want strategy.
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On September 11 2015 14:59 Matt` wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2015 14:54 HonorZ wrote:Damn they came back from the fucking grave where they bellonged. Starcraft is about strategy. Macro is good when it is a decision making / planning issue. To know when to make units and when to upgrade stuff, when to skip workers and all is the real difficulty of macro. It's not about : "I spamm faster than my oponent" and it should never fucking be. Mules weeeeeeeeeere so fucking stupid. No interest. They was really no choice between eco and scan, and people choose eco 90 % of the time - they HAD to. So yeah... Chrono is kinda cool for the decision making part. So it can stay ! Zerg inject is reaaaaaaaaaally dumb. You have no decision to make it's like "inject inject inject" and if you don't do it you're behind. It brings no value to the game. You could have a game mechanic like you should press some button every X seconds and it would be the same thing, like bus drivers. Damn. Sad to see them fucking come back. And then you think that all the units that are sadly damaged. And nothing happens for them. You're playing the wrong game genre if you ONLY want strategy.
The game currently is 99% mechanics, whats wrong if it was 70% or 60% mechanics?
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I'm out; won't but it. bye!
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EPT
